27000 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 7:17pm Subject: Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. Hi James Could you kindly explain how those beings in the immaterial state that experiences feelings, if feeling is a physical response in the body? rgds Ken O > > Hi Nina, > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. There can be > subsequent thoughts about the feeling, but the feeling itself doesn't > originate in the brain…it comes from the reactions of the body. The > function of the brain is a tool to guarantee survival of the body. > Through evolution, the brain has evolved that certain thoughts must > trigger certain feelings that trigger certain actions. All of these > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. Consciousness, > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. > > Metta, James 27001 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 3:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness In a message dated 11/15/2003 4:27:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > In the suttas emptiness is always defined as a nama or rupa with > distinguishable characteristics (usually the characteristic of arising > and falling away) is empty of some other dhamma, usually, but not always > a concept such as permanence. If you say, in reality there are no > characteristics, then what is empty of self? The only answer is that you > are asserting that all experience is conceptual. This is an arguable > point but I don't think it is in the suttas. > > Larry > Hi Larry As so often stated in the Suttas... "All things are not self." Emptiness refers both to the conditioned and unconditioned. I did not say there were no characteristics. I said -- things do not have their own characteristics. The rest of your proposed hypothesis would therefore not follow. TG 27002 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:02pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Suan and Michael, Suan:"I refuted Kalupahana thoroughly in the article pages which are available in the journal issue 2000 and 2001 on the bodhiology website. If Robert had downloaded them previously, please feel free to forward them here." Suan, I tried to find it on your site but couldn't see it. Anyway I am glad you are around to help discuss directly. Your wide knowledge of Dhamma and Pali will ensure accuracy in the discussion. Michael thank you very much for writing out the page from Kalapuhana's book. I see the main point was that Kalupahana says that Buddhaghosa misrepresented the Dhamma and made it 'essentialist'. And that other ancient Theravada Bhikkhus like Anuruddha, the author of the Abhidhammamattha-sangaha, were even more so. The long line of Bhikkhus who preserved these ancient commentaries for all these centuries were perhaps deluded people, not really understanding the Dhamma. These are strong accusations by Kalupahana. But anyway he feels that he has the wisdom that can distinguish this wrong teaching and he finds that the Theravada commentaries were not much different from the wrong teachings of the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas. I don't know much about these groups except that the Sautrantikas rejected the Abhidhamma. They said there was no Tipitaka but only a Dvipitaka - Sutta and Vinaya. Further than this Professor Kalupahana notes that the Mahayana teacher Nagajuna also criticized the position taken by the ancient monks of Thearavda - for the same or similar reasons that Kalupahana does. It is very hard to judge these matters without reading the complete book so I just take one point. Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist conceptual > enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of their > dependence (paticcasamuppada) was relegated to the background."" It is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. In the Visuddhimagga alone there is a chapter devoted to Paticcasamuppada XVII running in my edition to some 79 pages. This is separate from all the references to it in other sections of the Visuddhimagga.. He may also be unaware of the chapters by Buddhagshosa in other commentaries: there is a very detailed one in the Sammohavinodani (Dispeller of Delusion – PTS) for instance. And the commentaries on individual suttas are filled with explanations about paticcasamuppada: for instance the long commentary on the Mahidinana sutta (section of the Sumangalavilasini). The sub- commentaries, such as the DighaNikaya tika give even more detail. Anuruddha too, despite what Kalupahana says about him, laid stress on conditionality: Note chapter VIII "Compendium of Conditionality" in the Abhidhammatthasangaha. RobertK 27003 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness TG: "As so often stated in the Suttas... "All things are not self." Emptiness refers both to the conditioned and unconditioned." Hi TG, Anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence". It wouldn't make sense to say nibbana is empty of permanence. In the two places in MN that the Buddha says "all dhamma are not self" the reference is clearly to the khandhas. I don't know of any commentarial notes that say otherwise. I vaguely remember reading that nibbana is empty or void of something but I don't remember what. It wasn't self. I think we could safely say everything, including nibbana, is empty of all else. Larry 27004 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Reply to James James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Hi Star Kid Philip! ... > Yes, compassion is seeing someone in a good way. Have you ever > played a video game? I bet you have. You know how most video > games > are about overcoming challenges, shooting at enemies, and trying > not to get destroyed as you gather points in order to win the game? > Well, most everyone looks at life this way also. They don't see > other people as people; they see them as challenges, as potential > enemies, who may do something to destroy them at any minute. Or > they > see them as fellow players, who are competing to win the game, and > are therefore another type of threat. But the truth of the matter > is > that no one is playing a game, the game is playing us. The game of > life is stopping us from seeing the truth. When you stop viewing > people as potential threats, you develop compassion for them. Even > if they don't like you, or say bad things about you, you don't > care- > you know that they are just stuck in the game. Philip, you worry > that if anyone doesn't approve of your or criticizes you, you feel > like you have lost points. You get upset because you don't want to > lose the game. But the TRUTH isn't a game. Remember that and you > will have compassion for everyone. Great metaphor for a kid like Phillip. I'm sure he'll appreciate this. (Of course he may not admit as much!) Jon 27005 From: Sarah Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 10:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi Michael, Suan & All, There is a lot of detail in the first extract you posted as Nina said and I think it is useful to discuss it. Let’s take time to consider the points as I have no doubt they are well-considered and sincerely intended and very interesting. I hope to add something on the point James stressed later. I hope others join in as well - there are so many topics to be checked and raised, more than Suan, RobertK and I can handle;-) For now, the point Suan raised was the first one that caught my attention too: .... Suan: > >Therefore, the very statement "there can be many paths (magga) > >leading to that one goal (ekayana)" was already wrong. > Michael:> So, you don't find in the Visuddhimagga "at least six different ways of > attaining the goal: > 1. Insight (panna) > 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) > 3. Action (kamma) > 4. Morality or virtue (sua) > 5. Mindfulness (sati) > 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12" .... Throughout the commentaries it is stressed that there is only one path (ekayana) as Suan corrected. We discussed the term ‘ekayana’ in considerable detail when looking at the commentary to the Satipatthana Sutta (compiled by Buddhaghosa) and sub-commentary. Please see notes in this post of mine: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m12410.html An extract from the commentary: >"The only way" = The one way [Ekayanoti ekamaggo]. There are many words for "way". The word used for "way" here is "ayana" ("going" or road). Therefore, "This is the only way, O bhikkhus [ekayano ayam bhikkhave maggo]" means here: "A single way ("going" or road), O bhikkhus, is this way; it is not of the nature of a double way [ekamaggo ayam bhikkhave maggo na dvedhapathabhuto]".< ***** Back to the Visuddhimagga itself and the number of ways of attaining the goal. What are listed in your quote from the book above are aspects of the Path or Way which are described accordingly in detail. In Ch XV1, 75f,we are given a detailed description of “The Truth of THE Way” [my caps]. It starts: “In the description of THE way leading to the cessation of suffering eight things are given.” This is followed by a detailed elaboration of the path factors starting with right view. “It has right seeing as its characteristic. Its function is to reveal elements. It is manifested as the abolition of ignorance.” There is nothing contradictory with the suttas as I read it. Even the term ‘characteristic’ (lakhana) can be found in the suttas. For example, in the Pa.tisambhidaamagga tansl,1,285: “How many characteristics (lakhana) does he see who sees the rise of the five aggregates?” etc. A little later in the Vism (84), we read: “As to knowledge’s function (see #14): the exposition should be understood according to knowledge of the truths. For knowledge of the truths is twofold, namely, knowlege as idea and knowledge as penetration.” Conveniently at this point the translator (~Nyaa.namoli) gives a reference to S.v.431f to compare. The word ‘function’(rasa) may not be used but its meaning is clear: “That noble truth of suffering, bhikkhus, has been understood and penetrated. That noble truth of the origin of suffering has been understood and penetrated..cessation of suffering.....way leading to the cessation of suffering has been understood and penetrated.” Back to the Vism text and a little later, the ONE path is stressed again (95): “Also THE path is of ONE kind [my caps]as what should be developed. It is of two kinds classed according to serenity and insight, or classed according to seeing and developing. It is three kinds classed according to the three aggregates; for the [path], being selective, is included by the three aggregates, which are comprehensive, as a city is by a kingdom.” This is followed by a passage in M i,301 which elaborates on why it is said the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates of virtue, concentration and wisdom. (B.Bodhi gives a note on the meaning of khandha in this context, but I digress). In short, I see nothing in the Visuddhimagga that conflicts with what we have already read in the various suttas and Abhidhamma regarding the one Path. I’d be glad to look at any further references in this regard. Metta, Sarah ===== 27006 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Ken O I agree in general terms with everything you said in this post, especially as regards the Abhidhamma being a support for the practice. I had noticed a distinct change in your recent posts (BTW, good to have you back, after quite a long absence), and I'm not surprised to learn here of your appreciation for the Abhidhamma. It's good to know that you've been putting your absence to good use! I would just like to add 1 or 2 comments of my own. --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James ... k: I am one living example of the fruits of Abhidhamma study that provide insight into many of my studies of Buddhist even though I have to admit that I study less than others. In fact I not an avid Abhidhamm studist (in fact I am quite lazy, I rely mostly on pple here to tell me). Jon: Like you Ken, most of my Abhidhamma studies have been of a passive nature. I have always relied very much on (live) discussions and recordings of talks (and I'm very fortunate to be able to listen in Thai) for most of what I learn, and these are discussions and talks on the practice, not on Abhidhamma per se. Now there are the exchanges here as another leg to my intake. Actually, it's only because of this list that I started delving into books like the Visuddhi-Magga and Abhidhammattha-Sangaha to find textual support for what I had come to know by other means. I have never considered myself and Abhidhammist (and in fact, on the last trip to India some Thai friends were telling me that if I was serious I ought to be taking more interest in the Abhidhamma -- clearly I didn't know how to talk the Abhidhamma talk!) k: Another impression of Abdhammaist study, is that its interpretations are sometimes very different from the mindset that we derived from our understanding through the study of sutta. I think it is natural, bc we always have our so called comfort arena. Jon: Right on, Ken! I suspect that many instances of what people consider to be inconsistencies with the suttas are in fact simply things that are so counter-intuitive for that person that they just can't believe it could be what the Buddha meant. There's nothing like exposure to the Abhidhamma to challenge our cherished ideas and beliefs ;-)) Thanks for the post. I think you have a very balanced approach. I hope you continue to benefit from the exchanges here, as I do. Jon 27007 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/15/03 2:37:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi TG, > > It seems to me, if there is emptiness there has to be something that > is non-empty, a container. If all there is is a big zero the Buddha > wouldn't experience anything at all, not even emptiness. Sense > consciousness is empty of hatred and desire. That is a path _and_ a > fruition, IMO. > > Larry > ======================== Emptiness may be no-thing-ness, but it is not nothingness. Belief in su~n~nata/anatta is not a nihilism - it is the middle way. Emptiness amounts to conditionality. While conditions have characteristics, they do not have own being, arising as they do from the coming together of other similarly empty conditions. No condition is a self-existent thing, but is merely a fleeting state whose very tentative and fragile existence is completely dependent on other similarly hollow phenomena. Looking for an anchor, for a steady ground that is not pulled out from under ones feet, looking for something that is non-empty, is the essence of samsara. Letting go completely - of every possible anchor and all solid ground, and giving oneself over entirely to uncertainty, nonlastingness, insubstantiality, and emptiness, is the doorway to nibbana. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27008 From: Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 6:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:14:33 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence" ======================= If that were so, then there would be but two lakkhana, not three, for these would be dukkha and anatta = anicca. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27009 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 15, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati A quick supplement to this post of mine just sent. --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Ken O > Jon: Like you Ken, most of my Abhidhamma studies have been of a > passive nature. I have always relied very much on (live) > discussions > and recordings of talks (and I'm very fortunate to be able to > listen > in Thai) for most of what I learn, and these are discussions and > talks on the practice, not on Abhidhamma per se. I would also like to add a special mention of Nina's writings too, which over the years have been a big factor in my becoming familiar with the Abhidhamma as an integral aspect of the practice. And I don't mind admitting it has taken a long time to sink in! (At the same time, I'm glad I didn't feel the need to push myself into it ;-).) Many thanks, Nina. Jon 27010 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness TG --- TGrand458@a... wrote: ... > Hi Jon and Howard > > 'Mutual Dependence' is the primary focus of the suttas IMO; > in-so-much as it > is used to bring about freedom from suffering. Sariputta said... > "He who sees > the Dhamma sees Dependent Origination, he who sees Dependent > Origination sees > the Dhamma." That statement clearly shows the primacy of mutual > dependence. I think we are in agreement, TG, because I think you are referring to 'conditionality' in general and not mutual dependency in particular. Mutual dependence, as I used the term in my post, is a particular instance of conditionality (for example, kamma conditions vipaka, but the 2 are not mutually dependent). Dependent Origination is all about conditionality, and understanding conditionality is important in coming to an understanding of the teaching on not-self. Thanks for the comment. Jon 27011 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi Howard, op 07-11-2003 01:07 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > ============================== > In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the > Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to > consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. In > the > suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a > consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an > aspect of, > and hence subordinate to, contact. N: The Atthasalini (Part IV, Ch I, 108) explains: the same for feeling, sa~n~naa, san"khaarakkhandha and vi~n~naa.na. (translation of Wheel 101) We then read: H: Also, I think it is wrong to say that seeing is a type of > consciousness. Seeing is exactly awareness of a visual object via the eye > door, which > makes it visual contact. The visual consciousness, per se, is only the > subjective > pole of seeing, something which never occurs except as an aspect of a visual > contact. Correspondingly for hearing, tasting, feeling,smelling, and > cognizing. N: Seeing is a citta, consciousness, it experiences visible object. It arises in a process. Shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in the same process. Let us look at the suttas: often it is stated: after having seen visible object, attachment to the object arises. MI, no 18, The Honeyball: It is clearly said: seeing-consciousness, this is the aggregate of consciousness, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. We read in this sutta how contact conditions feeling, and then there is perception, reasoning, obsessions. H: As I see it, the Abhidhammikas developed a clever conceptual scheme of > sequences of mindstates, each of which is an occurrence of consciousness > accompanied by a selection from everything else that can occur in some > combination, these cetasikas being subordinate functions or features. This is > a brilliant and fascinating framework, one which, as a mathematician, I greatly respect, > but it does not seem to perfectly accomodate all of reality easily. Moreover, > it appears to me to be a BIG stretch to see it as "uncreatively" reflecting > the content of the suttas. N: That is all right, Howard. The main thing is to check for ourselves the truth contained in the teachings. Nina. 27012 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa, just quotes, please. Hi Michael, I have trouble with some terms. What are essencialist ideas, and where and how do you see them? In this group??I also had trouble with hermeneutic?? Hermes was the god of science. I looked at the co to the Kathavatthu intro, all those heretical schools. I did not see the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas K. alluded to. Buddhaghosa quotes all the time from suttas, Patisambhidamagga, Qu. of Milinda. We find the same aspects of sila in the Patisambhidamagga. It is very impressive to me, but, it cannot be understood without at least a basic understanding of the practice of vipassana. Without this the texts are just words. Look at the text of restraint as to the six doors, where he quotes a sutta. Buddhaghosa stresses vipassana, realize the khandhas, elements, sensefields, time and again. He helps us to see that the whole of the teachings, Abhidhamma included is for practice. As Ken O rightly stressed:< I like to clarify that Abhidamma is not just a scholaristic view of the dhammas which I have in the first instance when I first met it last two years ago. Abhidhamma has it strength in looking at dhamma with the anatta and anicca perspective which cannot be seen or match in any else in any Buddhist book that I have read. Its practicality is only known when we start using it. It is useless without practise bc it was meant for practise. Let me emphasis it again and again, Abhidamma is meant to help us to practise and not otherwise.> Vinaya, Sutta, Abhidhamma, we cannot understand them without a beginning understanding of the practice, otherwise, whatever we read of Buddhaghosa will remain theory for us. The article is very long, and maybe you can cut it and just select a very concrete point which we can examine. K. speaks very generally I think. What if we select sila. Is there any text K quotes where we could find any contradictions with the Tipitaka? It is best to use just quotes. I would like very much to listen to Suan and hear his opinion. His posts are always very valuable. Nina. op 15-11-2003 16:40 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Then just let it be, but franklly the key issue in Kalupahana's argument is > the inclusion in Buddhaghosa's writings of essencialist concepts which > cannot be found in the suttas. If you pay carefull attention you will notice > those essencialist ideas creeping up in this very same list. 27013 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 0:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Dear Sukin, I greatly appreciate your post. Excellent reminders, and so sincere. How true: < Are we expecting to have more sati and panna than our accumulations allow?.> We should scrutinize ourselves as to this. Nina. op 15-11-2003 12:34 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > There would be moments of discouragement, and then I would > be reminded of the fact that it is all `conditioned', that this is > just how it is supposed to be. Are we expecting to have more sati > and panna than our accumulations allow? Yes, like children learning > to walk we are! We are so fortunate to be amongst those who have > gone further than us. :-) > Estimating `how far we have come', even such thinking is > conditioned, but is it particularly useful? With sati, such thoughts > can condition calm if at the same time it conditions Saddha. > However, it is mostly done with `attachment' to self and progress. > In any case if we are honest, I think we will see that akusala > conditions far out weighs the kusala. > But there is never any reason not to prefer having patience, courage > and good cheer. ;-)). 27014 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:06am Subject: Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James > > Could you kindly explain how those beings in the immaterial state > that experiences feelings, if feeling is a physical response in the > body? > > rgds > Ken O Hi Ken, Well, I really don't know much about immaterial beings. I only know some things about the physiology of material beings. If I ever met an immaterial physiologist I'll be sure to ask him!;-) Seriously, matter is energy that vibrates at a certain frequency. Immaterial Beings, I conjecture, would be composed of energy that vibrates at a different frequency...they wouldn't be composed of nothing or they wouldn't exist. Perhaps they have an energy body, perhaps they are all mind, I don't know…the suttas give scant details about such matters. I was speaking predominately about the Abhidhamma, feelings, and how they relate to humans, I wasn't positing a `Theory of Everything'. Metta, James 27015 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: ... As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. Jon: Which accumulations do you refer to here, apart from the akusala ones of attachment and aversion? I am wondering what you see as the role, if any, of kamma in conditioning the experience of objects through the sense doors. Does kusala kamma result in the experience of a 'liked' object (i.e., one to which one has attachment), and akusala kamma result in a 'disliked' object (one to which one has aversion)? If so, what is the position in the case of the arahant who has eradicated both of these tendencies? Howard: I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the other is desirable. Jon: You say that a rupa that is experienced carries its own 'vedanic' flavour. As far as I am aware, 'vedana' as used in the suttas refers only to the mental factor of that name that accompanies consciousness, never as an attribute of rupas. Furthermore, as I see it, there could be no necessary connection between the nature of the rupa being experienced and the feeling that accompanies the immediately following moments of consciousness. For the unenlightened person, the experiencing of a highly unpleasant object (for example, severe bodily pain) is inevitably going to be followed by consciousness that is rooted in aversion and thus is accompanied by unpleasant feeling, while for the arahant there is no dosa and no unpleasant feeling. So what happens to the 'vedanic' flavour in that case? As I understand it, what is being described by the Pali term 'ittha-arammana' and its opposite are attributes that pertain to the object being experienced, and not anything to do with the experiencing consciousness. Howard: Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? ... I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. Jon: Personally I would consider your "bearing pleasant taste" a better choice than 'desirable', but for whatever reason the Pali term used is apparently 'desirable'. But even 'pleasant' would leave open the question of what is meant by 'pleasant', so one comes back to the explanation given rather than relying on the term used. The answer to that is, as we have already heard in this thread, pleasant by the reckoning of the average person, i.e., not a person who is excessively sensitive or insensitive as regards such matters. Jon 27016 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Jon, > > When consciousness is the object of consciousness is the object > consciousness with or without accompanying cetasikas? It apparently > is without an object. There can only be 1 present object of consciousness. Furthermore, to my understanding of the texts, no moment of consciousness can have as object anything other than a single dhamma or concept. Thus, whether the object of consciousness is the (immediately preceding) consciousness (citta), or one of the accompanying mental factors (cetasikas), or a sense-door object (visible-object, audible-object, hardness etc), or a concept, only that single dhamma or concept could be the object, and never for example, consciousness-with-object. > ... Also, I know in the Satipatthana Sutta consciousness > of consciousness is _with cetasikas_ but could there be mindfulness > of > consciousness in consciousness the same way there is mindfulness of > feeling in feeling? Feeling is, in some way, an "exclusive" object > of > mindfulness even though it always arises with other cetasikas. Why > not the same for consciousness? Yes, there can be there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness, in the same way there as there can be mindfulness of feeling in feeling. Feeling is not unique or even special in this regard. Every dhamma has characteristics that can be the object of awareness. Consciousness has, for example, the general characteristic of being a nama, and the unique characteristic of being chief in experiencing the object, and either of these characteristics could be the object of awareness. Jon 27017 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: citta, cetasika, rupa. Hi James, Science is always an interesting subject, it is sad that I do not have an aptitude for it. We have to understand that Science is always an ever changing subject, what they think is right today could be different from tomorrow. Are we so sure they have disprove the nama-rupa theory. When Budhha talks about dependent origination, he said ""'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.' Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother's womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?" " http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn15.html So do we have consciousness first or rupa first for our first appearance in the womb? kind regards Ken O 27018 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 5:55am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 24 [Regarding the discriminations of attha ("meaning") and dhamma ("law")...] 24. This same meaning is shown in the Abhidhamma by the following analysis: (a) 'Knowledge about suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of suffering is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of suffering is the "discrimination of law]... (b) 'Knowledge about cause is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about the fruit of a cause is the "discrimination of meaning"... (c) 'Knowledge about whatever things are born, become, brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the things from which those things were born, became, were brought to birth, produced, completed, made manifest, is the "discrimination of law"... (d) 'Knowledge about ageing and death is the "discrimination meaning". Knowledge about the origin of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". [Knowledge about the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of ageing and death is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about birth ... becoming ... clinging ... craving ... feeling ... contact ... the sixfold base ... mentality-materiality ... consciousness ... knowledge about formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the origin of formations is the "discrimination of law".] Knowledge about the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of meaning". Knowledge about the way leading to the cessation of formations is the "discrimination of law" ... (e) 'Here a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma (Law)--the Discourses, Songs, [Expositions, Stanzas, Exclamations, Sayings, Birth Stories, Marvels, and] Answers to Questions--this is called the "discrimination of law". He knows the meaning of whatever is said thus : "This is the meaning of this that was said; this is the meaning of this that was said"--this is called the "discrimination of meaning" ... (f) 'What states are profitable? On an occasion when profitable consciousness of the sense sphere has arisen [that is accompanied by joy and associated with knowledge, having a visible datum as its object ... or a mental datum as its object, or contingent upon whatever it may be, on that occasion there is contact ... (for elision see Dhs. 1) ... there is non-wavering]--these things are profitable. Knowledge about these things is the "discrimination of law". Knowledge about their result is the "discrimination of meaning:' ... (Vbh. 293-95). (8) ------------------- (8) This quotation has been filled out from the Vibha.nga text for clarity. 24. ayameva hi attho abhidhamme -- "dukkhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. dukkhasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetumhi ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. hetuphale~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. ye dhammaa jaataa bhuutaa sa~njaataa nibbattaa abhinibbattaa paatubhuutaa. imesu dhammesu ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. yamhaa dhammaa te dhammaa jaataa bhuutaa sa~njaataa nibbattaa abhinibbattaa paatubhuutaa, tesu dhammesu ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. jaraamara.ne~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. jaraamara.nasamudaye ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa...pe0... sa"nkhaaranirodhe ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa. sa"nkhaaranirodhagaaminiyaa pa.tipadaaya ~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. idha bhikkhu dhamma.m jaanaati sutta.m geyya.m...pe0... vedalla.m. aya.m vuccati dhammapa.tisambhidaa. so tassa tasseva bhaasitassa attha.m jaanaati `aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho, aya.m imassa bhaasitassa attho'ti. aya.m vuccati atthapa.tisambhidaa. katame dhammaa kusalaa. yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacara.m kusala.m citta.m uppanna.m hoti...pe0... ime dhammaa kusalaa. imesu dhammesu~naa.na.m dhammapa.tisambhidaa. tesa.m vipaake ~naa.na.m atthapa.tisambhidaa" tiaadinaa (vibha0 719 aadayo) nayena vibhajitvaa dassito. 27019 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael RobertK, >Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist >conceptual enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of >their dependence (paticcasamuppada) >was relegated to the background." It >is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. It is not difficult at all to understand this conclusion because assuming that phenomena have any sort of essence, or that there are phenomena that can be regarded as having an ultimate substantial nature (svabhava), then there is no way to justify dependent origination. Dependent origination only works if there is no ultimate substantial nature in phenomena, if phenomena are entirely subject to causes and conditions. And that in brief is what has been proven by Nagarjuna. So, if you accept any kind of svabhava, you cannot justify dependent origination, they are contradictory. And just to ilustrate that even contemporary Theravada scholars struggle with this issue, have a look at the very different views below: “The Abhidhamma may be described as a philosophy because it proposes an ontology, a perspective on the nature of the real. This perspective has been designated the "dhamma theory" (dhammavada). The theory as such is not articulated in the Abhidhamma Pitaka, which rarely makes explicit the premises that underlie its systematizing projects, but it comes into prominence only in the later commentarial literature, particularly in the commentaries to the Abhidhamma manuals. It is the dhammas alone that possess ultimate reality: determinate existence "from their own side" (sarupato) independent of the mind's conceptual processing of the data.” A Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma – page 3 Bhikkhu Bodhi “Now, in what sense can the Abhidhamma be called a philosophy? Let us make a rough division of philosophy into phenomenology and ontology, and briefly characterize them as follows: Phenomenology deals, as the name implies, with "phenomena," that is, with the world of internal and external experience. Ontology, or metaphysics, inquires into the existence and nature of an essence, or ultimate principle, underlying the phenomenal world. In other words, phenomenology investigates the questions: What happens in the world of our experience? How does it happen? Of course, when inquiring into the "what" and "how," philosophy is not satisfied with the surface view of reality as it presents itself to the naive and uncritical mind. Ontology, on the other hand, insists, at least in most of its systems, that the question "how" cannot be answered without reference to an eternal essence behind reality, whether conceived as immanent or transcendent. Particularly in the latter case the question "how" is frequently changed into a "why," containing the tacit assumption that the answer has to be sought somewhere or somehow outside of the given reality. The Abhidhamma doubtlessly belongs to the first of these two divisions of philosophy, that is, to phenomenology.” Abhidhamma Studies – page 20 Nyanaponika Thera Those are extracts from a larger text, and it is easy to see that Kalupahana’s argument sides much easier with the position taken by Nyanaponika while the cristicism of Buddhaghosa would also apply to the arguments presented by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Metta Michael 27020 From: abhidhammika Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, James and all How are you? My answers follow Michael's statements. Mike B: I am doing well, thank you. Hope you are also doing well and not too much upset by my message. Suan: I am well, and unable to find reason to be upset by your message. Mike B: Read the whole post to get to the kernel of his argument. Don't get lost in one word which I am not sure either if you are right or not. Suan: Thank you for this advice. But, if you are not sure whether I am right or wrong, I do not see the point in explaining things to you. Do you follow what I just said? I do not want to waste my time as well as your time. In fact, I never intended to take part in this thread. Only because Robert K drew my attention to the thread by including my name in the heading. The reason for planning to ignore the thread was that this type of thread usually involved speculative arguments. Right now, Kalupahana's chapter on Buddhaghosa was long on his personal speculative conclusions and short on quotes from Pali texts. Mike B: Yes I am sure. And you should be more carefull with your language. Bad karma you know :) Suan: So you were upset by my question! Sorry about that, but it was merely a literary device to stress the mistake of Kalupahana. Even though it was merely one word (ekaayano), as far as Buddhism is concerned, the term "ekaayano maggo" represents one of the Four Noble Truths. It means "One And The Only Way", and as such, is not negotiable. If Kalupahana as a Professor of Buddhist Philosophy could not get the important terms of the Buddha's teachings right, how could we make sense of his arguments and conclusions? Mike B : >If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali like "ekaayaano".< (from Suan's previous post) I don't know about this. But maybe you don't know it either (don't take offense but I don't know you). Anyway this is not a key issue. But if you are just trying to find a reason to reject what he is saying, then go ahead and be happy. Suan: You discovered this list (dhammastudygroup) through the Pali discussions beteen me and Nina, forwarded to Pali List by Nina. So you might know, at least, that I am a Pali scholar. As a Pali scholar, I surely know the Pali language and can consult the Buddha's teachings, standard commentaries, subcommentaries and any related texts written in Pali. I mention these things, only because you said that you did not know me. For further information, though, the bodhiology website can be the starting place. In fact, if you recalled, I requested you and other like-minded critics of Buddhaghosa to provide me with Pali quotes from commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. Nobody was able to do so so far. When you posted Kalupana's chapter on Buddhaghosa, the first things I looked for were specific Pali passages Kalupahana might use in his arguments. But, Kalupahana was not able to produce one single reliable Pali quote from Buddhaghosa's commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. If you or someone think that I overlooked something, please let me know and draw my attention to them, please. I wasn't finding a reason to reject what Kalupahana is saying. I simply called a spade a spade. Kalupahana got it wrong when he interpreted "ekaayano" as "one goal". --- Sarah, thank you for taking care of this aspect of Kalupahana's mistakes. --- The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" can be found in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (The Establishment Of Recollection/Mindfulness). The term "ayano" has different meanings, but in the phrase "eka + ayano" it means "road or way". If you have a Pali-English dictionary, please look up the term there. The term "eka" normally means "one", but it can also take on the meaning of "one and only one" when used as in "ekaayano maggo". Thus, we get "The Only Way" when we mention "Maggo" as the Buddhist path. The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena). To Be Continued.... With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 27021 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Tiika 36 II, correction Tiika 36 II, correction. I forgot to copy the first line, thank you, Jonothan. Va.n.navikaara.m aapajjamaana.m hadaya"ngatabhaava.m ruupayatiiti ruupa.m, iva dassetiiti attho. It makes visible a change of appearance that manifests the state of mind, and thus it is visible object, * as it is shown, is the meaning. _____ * A word association of ruupa, visible object and ruupayati: to make visible. When someone has a change in the colour of his face, it shows what is in his mind. 27022 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, you ask many questions, but I can quote only one sutta now; D, no II, 83: The four great elements can never be separated. The body is built up by them. Nina. op 15-11-2003 20:10 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > One slight hiccup, however, is that sutta also doesn't say anything > about the inseparability of the 4 primary elements. In fact we are > advised to identify each primary individually as in the Satipatthana > Sutta. 27023 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 7:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Hi James, op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. N: It is all right James. It does not help you if I say, do not compare Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know presently arisen realities, it is for practice. Or, by knowing conditions you will cling less to my body, my mind. It does not help, because you are used to thinking the way you do. You are not the only person, many others think the way you describe above. Rob K is a scientist and he fully appreciates Abhidhamma. He wrote a few years ago about a dialogue he had with scientists about this subject. Rob, please could you reproduce some of it for James and others? J:Consciousness, > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. N: You see consciousness differently from what most scientists think. Here you will not put the brain central as some people do. The question is only: aware of what and how? But I cannot add anything new that would interest you. Nina. 27024 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:contact Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/16/03 3:38:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > >In my opinion, the nature of contact is one point at which the > >Abhidhamma and the suttas differ. In Abhidhamma contact is a concomitant to > >consciousness, something associated with and subordinate to consciousness. > In > >the > >suttas, contact is an event which is the coming together or co-arising of a > >consciousness, a sense door, and a sense object, making consciousness an > >aspect of, > >and hence subordinate to, contact. > N: The Atthasalini (Part IV, Ch I, 108) explains: physical base, object and consciousness) as its manifestation. Thus, when an > object is experienced through the eyes, we know that there is eye-contact, > it is the manifestation of it. Seeing is conditioned by visible object, > since that is its object, and by eyesense, since that is its physical base, > but all the same seeing is the chief in knowing an object, it is not > subordinate. > ======================== That approach, of taking phassa as being something of which the "coinciding (of the physical base, object and consciousness)" is manifestation is an instance of reification to me. I do not believe in some hidden something called "phassa" which plays such a role. I understand phassa as an event, and that is the event describable as the coming together of consciousness, object, and door. That is what I understand to be the position expressed in the suttas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27025 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/16/03 6:31:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Jon - > > Howard: > ... As I see it, the *particular rupa that arises* in a given > mind stream, with its desirableness or undesirableness (which I take > to be its pleasant or unpleasant "taste"), is conditioned by the > accumulations of that mind stream along with other conditions. > > Jon: > Which accumulations do you refer to here, apart from the akusala ones > of attachment and aversion? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps 'accumulations' is the wrong word. What I meant is that whether a pleasant or unpleasant rupa arises is at least partly a kammic consequence. -------------------------------------------------- > > I am wondering what you see as the role, if any, of kamma in > conditioning the experience of objects through the sense doors. Does > kusala kamma result in the experience of a 'liked' object (i.e., one > to which one has attachment), and akusala kamma result in a > 'disliked' object (one to which one has aversion)? If so, what is > the position in the case of the arahant who has eradicated both of > these tendencies? --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, old kamma still has its effect, and the pleasantness/unpleasantness of what arises still is conditioned by prior kamma. --------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > I think what I just wrote prior to this explains my > understanding. The only rupas that are relevant here are those that > actually arise in the namarupic stream involved, and, as I understand > it, a rupa that arises in a given mind stream already carries with > it the vedanic flavor that makes it desired or the disliked by the > given "being". If at one time a given rupa is unpleasant and at > another time "the same" rupa is felt as pleasant, these are, in fact, > *not* the same rupas, because they differ not only in time and > context of occurrence, but also in that one is undesirable and the > other is desirable. > > Jon: > You say that a rupa that is experienced carries its own 'vedanic' > flavour. As far as I am aware, 'vedana' as used in the suttas refers > only to the mental factor of that name that accompanies > consciousness, never as an attribute of rupas. -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, vedana is a mental feature/function. The question is of its dependency. I am merely saying that the rupa itself is a condition for the particular vedana that arises. [Analogy: A surface that reflects only red light is seen as red. The seeing of redness is not something in the surface, nor is the seen redness, itself, something in the surface. But a "black" surface will not be seen as red - so the seen redness is dependent on the surface, and we might say, in that sense, that it is inherent in the surface. Likewise, the pleasantness of a rupa depndes in part on the rupa, and, in that sense, may be described as inherent in it. Of course, all talk of inherency is and should be suspect! It is a dangerous manner of speech.] --------------------------------------------------------- > > Furthermore, as I see it, there could be no necessary connection > between the nature of the rupa being experienced and the feeling that > accompanies the immediately following moments of consciousness. For > the unenlightened person, the experiencing of a highly unpleasant > object (for example, severe bodily pain) is inevitably going to be > followed by consciousness that is rooted in aversion and thus is > accompanied by unpleasant feeling, while for the arahant there is no > dosa and no unpleasant feeling. So what happens to the 'vedanic' > flavour in that case? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: In the enlightened person, severe bodily pain, for example, unless blotted out by some means for some purpose, *is* felt as unpleasant, but no dislike/repugnance arises in reaction, no craving or aversion arises. It is "just" unpleasant. ---------------------------------------------------- > > As I understand it, what is being described by the Pali term > 'ittha-arammana' and its opposite are attributes that pertain to the > object being experienced, and not anything to do with the > experiencing consciousness. > > Howard: > Of course, if 'desirable' and 'undesirable' mean something > other than inducing desire or aversion, then this all goes out the > window. But, in that case, it is obligatory on the user of these > terms to spell out exactly what s/he means by 'desirable' and > 'undesirable' - desirable for what? in what sense? by what criteria? > ... > I only say that no objective criterion has been given. I offer > "tending to induce desire" or "bearing pleasant taste" as criterion. > > Jon: > Personally I would consider your "bearing pleasant taste" a better > choice than 'desirable', but for whatever reason the Pali term used > is apparently 'desirable'. But even 'pleasant' would leave open the > question of what is meant by 'pleasant', so one comes back to the > explanation given rather than relying on the term used. The answer > to that is, as we have already heard in this thread, pleasant by the > reckoning of the average person, i.e., not a person who is > excessively sensitive or insensitive as regards such matters. > > Jon > ==================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27026 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, >In short, I see nothing in the Visuddhimagga that conflicts with what we >have already read in the various suttas and Abhidhamma regarding the one >Path. I’d be glad to look at any further references in this regard. I agree with you and thanks for the thorough explanation. I also had a similar understanding and was somewhat confused by what Kalupahana wrote in respect of the 'one way'. But again although it looks like he is wrong in this case, I still think this does not invalidate his core argument which is in relation to how dhammas or ultimate realities are treated in the commentaries. This is the key issue which has been the object of criticism by subsequent schools of Buddhism. And although I feel like a commmited Theravadin, I believe that those critics have a very good and valid point and Theravada practitioners should open their eyes and be aware of those shortcomings in the commentaries. Metta Michael 27027 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? Larry 27028 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Suan, Some additional comments below... >From: "abhidhammika" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Date: Sun, 16 Nov 2003 15:21:48 -0000 > > > >Dear Michael, Nina, Robert K, Sarah, James and all > >How are you? My answers follow Michael's statements. > >Mike B: I am doing well, thank you. Hope you are also doing well and >not too much upset by my message. > >Suan: I am well, and unable to find reason to be upset by your >message. OK. I feel better then. I misinterpreted the tone of your message. > >Mike B: Read the whole post to get to the kernel of his argument. >Don't get lost in one word which I am not sure either if you are >right or not. > >Suan: Thank you for this advice. But, if you are not sure whether I >am right or wrong, I do not see the point in explaining things to you. > Precisely because I am not sure you could be more compassionate and dispell my ignorance. > Do you follow what I just said? I do not want to waste my time as >well as your time. > > In fact, I never intended to take part in this thread. Only because >Robert K drew my attention to the thread by including my name in the >heading. > > The reason for planning to ignore the thread was that this type of >thread usually involved speculative arguments. > > Right now, Kalupahana's chapter on Buddhaghosa was long on his >personal speculative conclusions and short on quotes from Pali texts. > I still think that your approach is too narrow focused. I am presenting an elephant and you are puzzled by the trunk wiithout looking at the whole animal. Look for my other posts to Saraha and Robert in this respect. > >Mike B: Yes I am sure. And you should be more carefull with your >language. Bad karma you know :) > >Suan: So you were upset by my question! Sorry about that, but it was >merely a literary device to stress the mistake of Kalupahana. Well, you are partially right, I was upset by your implication that I was lying and that I took as wrong speech on your part. > > Even though it was merely one word (ekaayano), as far as Buddhism >is concerned, the term "ekaayano maggo" represents one of the Four >Noble Truths. It means "One And The Only Way", and as such, is not >negotiable. I agree with you as mentioned in another post. > > If Kalupahana as a Professor of Buddhist Philosophy could not get >the important terms of the Buddha's teachings right, how could we >make sense of his arguments and conclusions? Still only looking at the elephant's trunk.... > >Mike B : > >If so, he did not understand even a very simple Pali >like "ekaayaano".< (from Suan's previous post) > >I don't know about this. But maybe you don't know it either (don't >take offense but I don't know you). Anyway this is not a key issue. >But if you are just trying to find a reason to reject what he is >saying, then go ahead and be happy. > >Suan: You discovered this list (dhammastudygroup) through the Pali >discussions beteen me and Nina, forwarded to Pali List by Nina. So >you might know, at least, that I am a Pali scholar. As a Pali >scholar, I surely know the Pali language and can consult the Buddha's >teachings, standard commentaries, subcommentaries and any related >texts written in Pali. I mention these things, only because you said >that you did not know me. For further information, though, the >bodhiology website can be the starting place. Sorry if I didn't know you. Now I know you a little bit better. I am happy to have found these groups. > > In fact, if you recalled, I requested you and other like-minded >critics of Buddhaghosa to provide me with Pali quotes from >commentaries that contradict the Buddha's teachings. Nobody was able >to do so so far. > > When you posted Kalupana's chapter on Buddhaghosa, the first things >I looked for were specific Pali passages Kalupahana might use in his >arguments. But, Kalupahana was not able to produce one single >reliable Pali quote from Buddhaghosa's commentaries that contradict >the Buddha's teachings. If you or someone think that I overlooked >something, please let me know and draw my attention to them, please. > > I wasn't finding a reason to reject what Kalupahana is saying. I >simply called a spade a spade. Kalupahana got it wrong when he >interpreted "ekaayano" as "one goal". --- Sarah, thank you for taking >care of this aspect of Kalupahana's mistakes. --- Yes he probably got it wrong here but I don't think he got it wrong in saying that the commentaries categorize dhammas as svabhava. > > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" can be found in >Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (The Establishment Of >Recollection/Mindfulness). The term "ayano" has different meanings, >but in the phrase "eka + ayano" it means "road or way". If you have a >Pali-English dictionary, please look up the term there. The >term "eka" normally means "one", but it can also take on the meaning >of "one and only one" when used as in "ekaayano maggo". Thus, we >get "The Only Way" when we mention "Maggo" as the Buddhist path. > > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in >Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of >Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four >establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the >Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only >Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing >nibbaana). > >This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, >of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a >part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As >Head" (Satisiisena). > >To Be Continued.... > >With regards, Metta > >Suan Michael > >http://www.bodhiology.org > 27029 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:03:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? > > Larry > =========================== Mostly, it means impersonal and without self. The point is, in part, I think, what did atta/atma mean in India at that time. I believe it meant essence/fixed core and true, self-sufficient being. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27030 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott Yes, there can be there be mindfulness of consciousness in consciousness, in the same way as there can be mindfulness of feeling in feeling. Hi Jon, I have had a change of mind. I don't think consciousness by itself can be an object of consciousness. I would say consciousness ALWAYS arises with cetasikas. The 121 consciousnesses are actually 121 combinations of the 52 cetasikas. Consciousness as object would be one of the 121 combinations. Cetasika as object would be one of the 52 cetasikas as object, not in combination. The same applies to the two tranquility cetasikas (possibly?). Tranquility of the mental body would be tranquility applied (?) to one of the cetasikas of the mental body (feeling, perception, mental formations). Tranquility of consciousness would be tranquility applied to one of the 121 combinations. Obviously this means the object of consciousness can be a group. I don't see any way around this, plus there is a precedent. Rupa arises as a group of the 4 primaries. At least we could say it is just one group. 27031 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:35am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: D, no II, 83: Hi Nina, Well done! When rupa is object is it one or four or one group of four? When we are mindful of the four elements in our body are we mindful of them one at a time or all four at once? Larry 27032 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, Could you substantiate this with a sutta quote? If you wish, I could provide a quote to support my contention that anatta is a synonym for "empty of permanence". Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry - > > In a message dated 11/16/03 12:03:34 PM Eastern Standard Time, > LBIDD@w... writes: > > > Hi Howard, > > > > What does anatta mean in the context of the suttas? > > > > Larry > > > =========================== > Mostly, it means impersonal and without self. The point is, in part, I > think, what did atta/atma mean in India at that time. I believe it meant > essence/fixed core and true, self-sufficient being. > > With metta, > Howard > 27033 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. > N: It is all right James. J: hehehe…you sound like one trying to calm a mad dog. Are you afraid I might bite? ;-) Don't worry. Don't be deceived by writing, it doesn't always reveal mental state. It does not help you if I say, do not compare > Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know > presently arisen realities, it is for practice. Or, by knowing conditions > you will cling less to my body, my mind. J: Now Nina, what if I don't want to stop clinging to your body?? ;- )) Seriously, your message here is quite different. Shortly after I joined this group and was learning the Abhidhamma, I asked you in a post if the Abhidhamma was to be taken literally or if it was symbolic, like Herman Hesse's `The Glass Bead Game'. You replied that it was to be taken literally, as a description for ultimate reality. Now you are saying that it doesn't have to be taken literally. Honestly, I am confused about your position. It does not help, because you are > used to thinking the way you do. You are not the only person, many others > think the way you describe above. > Rob K is a scientist and he fully appreciates Abhidhamma. He wrote a few > years ago about a dialogue he had with scientists about this subject. Rob, > please could you reproduce some of it for James and others? J: Again, shortly after I had joined this group, Rob M. (different Rob, but anyway) explained to me in a post that he doesn't view Abhidhamma as a scientific description, that it is unscientific and he realizes that, but that it is used as a means for releasing one from conceptual `ego' thinking. I still think he should meditate, but I took that as a valid answer. As you may or may not have noticed, I don't write posts challenging the Abhidhamma posts of Rob M. He doesn't discuss it in the same light that you do. > J:Consciousness, > > however, isn't focused on survival and isn't limited to the functions > > of the brain. Consciousness is fully aware. It is because of this > > that the watcher can become the watched and that Nibbana is possible. > N: You see consciousness differently from what most scientists think. Here > you will not put the brain central as some people do. The question is only: > aware of what and how? J: Scientists don't really have a theory of consciousness. What they are discovering, through brain research, is that consciousness appears to be `more than the sum of its parts'. In other words, the functions of the brain, added up, doesn't adequately explain consciousness. The Buddha didn't explain the functions of consciousness...not necessary to eliminate suffering. My thinking on the subject is greatly influenced by Eckhart Tolle. But I cannot add anything new that would interest > you. J: Never know. If you introduce something new, I think I would be very interested. > Nina. Metta, James 27034 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:13pm Subject: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 44. Then they may say: 'Just as you assume, from excess of some primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess(19) in material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. They should be told: 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has heat in excess. 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., though no other cause of their difference exists'.(20) This is how it should be taken. But what is it that is not common to them all?(21) It is the kamma itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have said: 'Sensitivity is of those that are equal, not of those that are unequal'. ---------------------------- (19) ' "From finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess": from finding them associated with these differences, namely, the bright visible datum in fire, sound audible through its individual essence in air, the odour beginning with surabhi perfume in earth, and the sweet taste of water; thus "visible data, etc., are the [respective] qualities of these". This is according to the first theory, and he has stated the conclusion (uttara) that follows, beginning with "we might assume" in terms of that. The second is confuted in the same way. Or alternatively, "Then they may say", etc., can be taken as said emphasizing, in order to confute it, the theory of Kanada, which asserts that the eye, etc., are respectively made of fire, space, earth, water, and air, that have visible data, etc., as their respective qualities' (Pm.445). (20) In the P.T.S. text and the Sinhalese Hewavitarne text the word "ekakalaape", 'that form a single group', occurs in this sentence but is not in the Harvard text. (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed that come into existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27035 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 1:46pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi all, This is how I see this argument: Opponent: Blood is fluid so blood has water element in excess. Similarly, fire is bright so light has fire element in excess. Buddhaghosa: Blood is also red, warm, and substantial so we can't say it has water element in excess. Similarly there is no difference in appearance between hot blood and cold blood so we can't say the fire element is light. Since neither of these arguments is tenable we cannot say the distinctions of derived sense objects is due to particular primary elements. Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence (water element). Buddhaghosa: Since we can't explain the distinctions of derived matter (light, sound, taste, odour) by the 4 elements we can at least say that these distinctions arise because of kamma (desire). Larry: Works for me. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 44. Then they may say: 'Just as you assume, from excess of some > primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] > functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from > finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess(19) in > material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible > data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. They should be > told: 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which > has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in > excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour > of hot water, which has heat in excess. > > 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give > up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary > elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are > dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the > primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., > though no other cause of their difference exists'.(20) This is how > it should be taken. > > But what is it that is not common to them all?(21) It is the kamma > itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their > difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of > primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, > sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have > said: 'Sensitivity is of those that are equal, not of those that are > unequal'. > ---------------------------- > (19) ' "From finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of > excess": from finding them associated with these differences, namely, > the bright visible datum in fire, sound audible through its > individual essence in air, the odour beginning with surabhi perfume > in earth, and the sweet taste of water; thus "visible data, etc., are > the [respective] qualities of these". This is according to the first > theory, and he has stated the conclusion (uttara) that follows, > beginning with "we might assume" in terms of that. The second is > confuted in the same way. Or alternatively, "Then they may say", > etc., can be taken as said emphasizing, in order to confute it, the > theory of Kanada, which asserts that the eye, etc., are respectively > made of fire, space, earth, water, and air, that have visible data, > etc., as their respective qualities' (Pm.445). > > (20) In the P.T.S. text and the Sinhalese Hewavitarne text the > word "ekakalaape", 'that form a single group', occurs in this > sentence but is not in the Harvard text. > > (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what > then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? > Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood > (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it > should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of > kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and > so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same > particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, > since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction > between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of > rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, > for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed that come into > existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were > different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, > it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was > generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is > one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is > established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due > to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27036 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:05pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Nina, Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted volition and limited and exalted kamma? Larry (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed"(P.tn.) IT MUST BE RECOGNIZED THAT A SINGLE VOLITION IS KAMMA CONDITION FOR ALL KINDS OF MATERIALITY DUE TO KAMMA PERFORMED that come into existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27037 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 3:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: abhidhamma and science, Rob K Not a scientist, Nina! Just a teacher with a passing interest in the beliefs of scientists. I think science has little useful to say about the mind: The definition of consciousness in the International Dictionary of Psychology: "Consciousness is a fascinating but elusive phenomenon; it is impossible to specify what it is, what it does, or why it evolved. Nothing worth reading has been written about it" (cited in Crick, 1994, vii). Philosopher of mind Collin McGinn writes in his summary of the different ideas about mind: "The head spins in theoretical disarray; no explanatory model suggests itself; bizarre ontologies loom. There is a feeling of intense confusion, but no clear idea of where the confusion lies" (1993,). RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi James, > op 15-11-2003 20:02 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > > > First, you state all of this as if it is fact; it isn't fact, it is > > theory. I don't agree with this theory. Here is a summary of my > > thoughts on the subject: I do not believe that feeling is a single > > mental factor that arises with thoughts. This is an out of date and > > old fashioned idea. Feeling is a physical response in the body, > > triggered by neurotransmitters in the brain, leading to physiological > > reactions in the body, which stem from thoughts. .... All of these > > thoughts and feelings are focused on survival. > N: It is all right James. It does not help you if I say, do not compare > Abhidhamma with science. Or if I say the Abhidhamma helps us to know > presently arisen realities, it is for practice. 27038 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 4:40pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, Please don't think that your questions were not proper for me. I shall reply to your questions. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Azita, [snip] 27039 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:51am Subject: Exceptionally Clear ! Friends: The Difference ! Venerable Maha-Kotthita once asked Venerable Sariputta: Friend, what is the difference between one who is Dead & the Bhikkhu who has entered upon the state of Cessation of Perception & Feeling ? Friend, in one who is dead all his bodily, verbal & mental Constructions (activities) has ceased & subsided, his Vitality (metabolism) is exhausted, his Heat has been dissipated & his Abilities are fully broken up ? In the Bhikkhu, however, who has entered Cessation, all his bodily, verbal & mental constructions has ceased & subsided, but his Metabolism is not exhausted, his Heat is not dissipated & his Abilities have become Exceptionally Clear !!! This is the difference between one who is dead & the Bhikkhu, who has entered the state of cessation of perception & feeling ? Commentary: The abilities within ordinary life are soiled by the vast details of sensing, just as a mirror set up at a highway is covered with dust & dirt? The abilities within cessation of perception & feeling are exceptionally clear, just as a polished mirror, which wrapped in silk is stored in a sealed box? Source: Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha Majjhima Nikaya [i 296], Mahavedalla Sutta 43. The Great Series of Questions & Answers. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... 27040 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 6:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael ========= > RobertK,:Professor Kalupahana says that "With the pursuit of such an essentialist > >conceptual enterprise, the explanation of events or entities in terms of > >their dependence (paticcasamuppada) >was relegated to the background." It > >is difficult to understand how the professor reached such a conclusion. ============== > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > It is not difficult at all to understand this conclusion because assuming > that phenomena have any sort of essence, or that there are phenomena that > can be regarded as having an ultimate substantial nature (svabhava), then > there is no way to justify dependent origination. Dependent origination only > works if there is no ultimate substantial nature in phenomena, if phenomena > are entirely subject to causes and conditions. And that in brief is what has > been proven by Nagarjuna. So, if you accept any kind of svabhava, you cannot > justify dependent origination, they are contradictory. ============= Dear Michael, I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the pali. From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? Robertk 27041 From: Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 2:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/16/03 12:43:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Howard, > > Could you substantiate this with a sutta quote? If you wish, I could > provide a quote to support my contention that anatta is a synonym > for "empty of permanence". > > Larry > ==================== Do you mean to substantiate that anatta primarily means impersonal and without self? That seems rather obvious and uncontroversial to me. In any case, I'm not much good at quotes, Larry, and particularly not right now. Perhaps sometime soon. Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. We're in the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the formal "mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to do much more than write things "off the top of my head". I'll try to remember to get back to you on this, though. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27042 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 9:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Dear Suan, I am very happy you wrote this post, and I like very much the end, learning about "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena). Looking forward to your following post, Nina. op 16-11-2003 16:21 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in > Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of > Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four > establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the > Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only > Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing > nibbaana). > > This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, > of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a > part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As > Head" (Satisiisena). > 27043 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. > We're in > the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the > arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the > formal > "mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to > do much more > than write things "off the top of my head". ...... I’ve been thinking about you and Rita. I’m sure you are exhausted after being on call for so long, so please get plenty of rest and don’t expect to be ‘back to normal’ in a hurry. Pace yourselves out. It all takes time, far more than anticipated usually. One step at a time. Please let us know if there’s anyway we can help at this time by way of any particular reminders or references or anything else on DSG. Meanwhile, we appreciate any of your "off the top of my head" comments. Let us know how you’re doing from time to time. Meanwhile a special extra dollop of metta and best wishes for sati and panna even at times of exhaustion and mourning;-) "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa ti yadaa pa~n~naaya passati Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyaa" Dhp 279 "All Dhammas are without a soul, when this, with wisdom,one discerns then is one disgusted with ill; this is the path to purity." (Naarada transl) Sarah ====== 27044 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Nov 16, 2003 8:35pm Subject: The 5 releasers! Friends: The 5 releasing Abilities (indriya): The Ability of Trust (saddha) becomes a Power, when unskakable by scepticism. Trust emerges within the 4 factors of stream entry. The Ability of Energy (viriya) becomes a Power ,when unskakable by laziness. Enthusiastic Energy emerges within the 4 best efforts. The Ability of Awareness (sati) becomes a Power, when unskakable by neglect. Awareness emerges within the 4 foundations of awareness. The Ability of Concentration (samadhi) becomes a Power, when unskakable by agitated distraction. Concentration emerges within the 4 levels of Jhana absorption. The Ability of Understanding (panna) becomes a Power when, unskakable by ignorance. Understanding emerges within the 4 Noble Truths... --oo0oo-- Source: The Path of Discrimination. Patisambhidamagga IV: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... Friendship is truly GREATEST ! For Gladdening of Good People ! Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life ! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27045 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie (RobM & All). Thanks for paddling along further;-) and Rob, for your further clear summaries. --- connie wrote: > I was having trouble understanding how a rupa could be inherently > desirable. It is lobha, not the rupa, that shouts DESIRABLE. .... I agree with your comment. Hence, the characteristic of lobha as desiring or attaching can be known, but we can only speculate about rupas that have already fallen away as to their desirability or not. When visible object or sound or hardness are the objects of awareness, there is no idea of ‘desirable/undesirable rupa’. However, lobha has been accumulated to like or shout DESIRABLE as soon as such rupas are experienced;-). It knows just what it likes;-). Hence we are reminded throughout the texts that mental development ‘is like the earth’ which accepts the dust,dirt and excrement without being affected or overwhelmed. From a recent extract of the Raahyulovaada sutta we read: “Apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, Rahula, For, Rahula, agreeable and disagreeable impressions that have arisen when you apply yourself to the mental development that is like the earth, will not persistently overwhelm the mind.” The commentary as Nina translated, elaborated: “Now he said to him, when explaining the characteristic of such nature (of the highest qualification), ‘like the earth’ and so on. Someone who is not attached nor has aversion with regard to the desirable and the undesirable (i.t.thaani.t.thesu) is called ‘of such nature’.......... With reference to the expression, they do not persistently obsess the mind, this means, when these impressions have arisen....” I’m also reminded by the quote about ‘like the earth’ to Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar in which he stresses the same point of developing detachment, regardless of the objects experienced through the senses. He gives his own exemplary example: From B.Bodhi’s “Numerical Discourses of the Buddha’, under ‘Sariputta’s Lion’s Roar’, p231. “Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology.” ***** C: >I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. .... I think we can only speculate about ‘good’ and ‘bad’ rupas being experienced, associating ‘good’ with pleasant of course;-) Whilst the feeling accompanying, say, seeing consciousness is neutral (with exceptions), I don’t think we can describe the rupa as ‘neutral’, but your point is that they remain as they are conditioned , regardless of subsequent cittas and kilesas (defilements) which may arise. .... C: > When a bunch of realities are all lumped together and called a slap > upside the head and we say I'm perverse if I like that (unless the > majority of the normal folk agree with me), it isn't really saying > anything about the characteristics of rupa... just about what the normal > lobha consensus is... <..> .... This is true. Even if we don’t like it and react with dosa or even moha, it can be said to be ‘perverse’. As RobM explained, we can still use ‘a slap on the head’ or ‘hearing anger’ as examples of experiencing akusala vipaka I think. It just depends how they are understood however,as you point out. In truth, no ‘slap’, no ‘head’ and so on. This is why we have to understand paramattha dhammas (absolute realities) in order to understand what is meant in the suttas and conventional language. .... <....> C: > I wondered what was undesirable > about the heat needed to cook rice... not that I want to experience that > heat directly. And I really don't know anything about fire-walkers, > either, but it seems that the heat there is a desirable support for > faith. .... I think we could speculate for ever along these lines and lose the plot so to speak. I’m reminded from a quote (taken somewhat out of context from the latest Vism installment, ch X1V,44): “'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has heat in excess. 45. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements.” Also, we may get more confused if we refer to ‘desirable support’. What do you think? ***** C: >The same way, although it's not a rupa, fear of hell can be an > inducement for kusala... but would it be a cogent one? .... As we have discussed, anything can be a condition for kusala or akusala states. however, by ‘cogent’ I think we were referring to arammanupanissaya paccaya (decisive support of object) and for this condition, the objects have to be a powerful or cogent inducement by way of being desirable. So fear of hell would be a kind of dosa which wouldn’t qualify. It would have to be a condition by way of pakatupanissaya paccaya (natural decisive support) only. .... <..> C: >... like you said about phassa being "both a decisive support for > citta to experience its object at each moment and also a mental > nutriment for this contact. It must also act as a condition in many > other ways too, such as by conascent condition for other cetasikas and > the citta, etc, etc." ... I understand you now. As you say, a dhamma can have many conditioning forces. Lobha (attachment) can be both object decisive support as well as natural decisive support as well as a condition in many other ways for more attachment to arise over and over again. C: > dog paddling, .. Likewise;-) Hope you're not sputtering and choling too much this time. Metta, Sarah p.s I’m sure many people may be confused by all these comments on Decisive Support Condition and the different kinds we're discussing. If you would like to write a summary of each, perhaps with a little introduction as to where this elephant trunk fits in, or post the details from Nina’s book, maybe, in bite-size pieces, it would be helpful for others who’d also like to paddle along. Anyway, you think might bring others to where your comments are coming from would be good. ====== 27046 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nina / transference of merit. Hi Thomas & Nina, --- nordwest wrote: > Dear Nina, try not to become attached to orders in rituals etc. Anyorder > you make is the right one. There will be a point on the path, when we > all have to burn all buddhist texts, stop reading, and stop being a > buddhist, to become finally a buddha. Any dualism, "right order-worng > order" would become an obstruction to realizing complete emptiness. ..... I think it’s a good point about not mistaking rituals for being the path or necessarily wholesome states at all. When we follow such practices, such as the service RobM described with the pirit thread and water pouring and so on, it just depends on the intentions and understanding as he explained. We can only know for ourselves. Thomas, I asked Nina to help provide more references about ‘sharing merit’ (as she said, ‘transfer’ can so easily be misunderstood). I greatly appreciated the examples she gave and the reminders for us even now to share and rejoice in each others’ good deeds. This can be as we listen to/read the Dhamma, share the Dhamma with each other and straighten our views by developing satipatthana. Thomas, you’ve mentioned here about finally becoming a Buddha and in another post to Michael, you wrote “we are all buddhas”. I’d like to just mention in passing, that according to the Theravada texts, that this is not so. We are not Buddhas and are not expecting or aiming to become Buddhas. The Bodhi citta and idea of a potential Buddha within us all is only taught in other (Mahayana) traditions. When we use the word ‘pure’ to describe consciousness, it depends what we mean. I think it can be misleading. Nina, thank you for reminding me about Nanda’s mother and the deva Vessavana. I think the detail in the commentary to the ‘Without the walls Discourse’ details that it is the partaking of the nutriment offered (as described in the sutta) that can only benefit this kind of peta. As you explain, others, even devas, can share and appreciate the merit of our deeds. As you also say, there can be kusala before, during and after giving when one recollects it. I liked RobM’s example of using the thread to recollect good deeds performed. Wise reflection on dhamma can be moments of samatha (calm), or there may be moments of satipatthana when realities are known. So often, attachment creeps in all the time, however, especially when there is any idea of ‘doing’ this or ‘having kusala’, for example. I read in a Wheel booklet that “The efficacy of chanting of parittas is discussed” in various commentaries such as: VinA 11, pp472,476; DA 111, pp962-70, SA 1, pp 341-2 and AA 11, p9. I don’t have access to any of these, however, though we’ve touched on this subject before. Thank you and RobM again directing us to look at the textual support further. It’s been helpful for me. A little more from the commentary to the Without-The-Walls-Discourse which I found interesting: “Either it was uttered for the purpose of showing that although someone neglectful in the practice of profitable action of the various kinds.....may be reborn in a place better than the actual hells and animal womb, yet he may still be reborn among such ghosts as these, and consequently no one should be negligent therein; or else it wa uttered for the purpose of showing that some of the beings by whom Vesali was plagued...” “ ‘then let this be for relatives’, nevertheless it is not that action done by one gives fruit for another, [which is never so] but simply that an object dedicatd in this way is a [necessary] condition for [ghost] realtives [themselves to do] profitable action, [and he showed] how such profitable action with that as its object generates its fruit at that very moment.” Metta, Sarah ====== 27047 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, James & All, So I think we all agree on the trunk now. Nina and RobertK are looking at the body and Suan’s looking at the big picture and any Pali details. So I’ll try to help with the tail, especially as this is the part James has picked up on;-) [note: DK = D.Kalupahana] .... --- buddhatrue wrote: > Thank you very much for posting this information. I find most > interesting that Buddhaghosa actually fabricated a quote from the > Buddha to prove one of his theories (but not surprised). ..... Actually, I think he was careful not to accuse Buddhaghosa of this, but I agree it could be understood that way. Let’s take a look: DK: >.....Unfortunately, Buddhaghosa's philosophical language eliminated not only metaphysical conceptions, such as permanent and eternal subjects and objects, but also empirical distinctions like: woman (itthi) and man (purisa), retaining only the aggregates (khandha). .... In the latest section of Vism X1V, 36 and its tiika, mention was just given of the rupas of femininity faculty and masculinity faculty: “Itthiyava indriya.m itthinindriya.m, tathaa purisindriya.m The faculty of a woman is feminity faculty, and likewise there is masculinity faculty.” Perhaps I miss the significance of the comments. Perhaps the objection is to the clear presentation of all conditioned realities being included in the 5 khandhas without any loopholes for the inclusion of all the concepts we cling to as being absolute realities as well. Surely, the khandhas, the All (apart from nibbana), are just what are described over and over and over again throughout the Suttas? Surely the rupas are included in the dhatus (elements) and ayatanas (sense fields) also elaborated in the Suttas? Surely, it is the vain attempt to find characteristics and essence in ‘things’ and ‘beings’ that suggests the ‘essentialist enterprise’ which Buddhaghosa is being accused of? Let me know if I’ve lost the plot. .... DK: >The fact that this is an essentialist enterprise is made clear by his analysis of human life into discrete momentary events, which he justifies by quoting a passage that is supposed to be from the Buddha but that has not yet been traced in any of the early discourses. ..... As he doesn’t quote the passage here, my response is based on guess work. The passage quoted that first comes to my mind is one discussed recently: Vism V111,39 “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return. No (world is) born if (consciousness is) not Produced; when that is present, then it lives; When consciousness dissolves, the world is dead; The highest sense this concept will allow” (Nd 1, 42). (See detailed footnote 11 (Nanamoli transl) which details all the kinds ofconcepts.) The reference shows this comes from the Niddesa, the Maha Niddesa, I believe, which is the oldest of commentaries. It elaborates on part of the Sutta Nipata. There is no English translation, but the Pali is available. Both the Maha and Culla Niddesa are included in the Canon as part of the Khuddaka Nikáya. I believe it is usually attributed to Sariputta. If Suan or anyone has access to the Pali, perhaps they could check if it is there. While it is true that some suttas and commentaries have been lost over the years, I don’t think this means that quotes have been ‘fabricated’. I think this would have been rather obvious to those who were familiar with the same sources and used to reciting them;-). (We may be accused of the same by future generations, if our quotes out-live the texts;-( ) [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. “Just as Pali replaced Sinhala as the literary language at this time, so the Sinhala commentaries were superseded by the Pali commentaries which in addition were used more extensively. Buddhaghosa himself says, in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa, that the commentary written in Sinhala was of no benefit to the bhikkhus outside Ceylon and therefore he was rendering it into Pali.” Goonesekere also gives many examples to show that Buddhaghosa stuck to the commentaries. For example in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa (comy to Vinaya), the list of Vinaya teachers given from Mahinda up to ‘the present day’ (yaava ajjatanaa) does not include theras who lived after the first century A.C, indicating that the Sinhala commentaries were almost completed by this time.] Back to life at this moment: “ ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment that flicks by. Ceased aggregates of those dead or alive Are all alike, gone never to return.” Isn’t this a good reminder that can be proved right now? We read in the suttas about the speed of cittas (conscious moments) flicking by. For example, “Monks, I know not of any other single thing so quick to change as the mind: insomuch that it is no easy thing to illustrate how quick to change it is.” (AN, 1,10) Isn’t it true that the mental states and experience through the senses that are taken for ‘life’ and ‘me’ change far quicker than we have any idea. One moment ‘happy me’, next moment ‘sad me’ and so on. Those experiences seen, heard and experienced have gone for ever. Hence we are repeatedly reminded not to ‘revive the past’ or build our hopes on the future but with insight to see ‘each presently arisen state’ (MN, 131). We learn to see the meaning of death at each moment and to understand that only presently arising namas and rupas can ever be known. This is also what I read in the Satipatthana and all other suttas. Seeing consciousness, visible object, attachment, thinking and so on can only ever be known now, regardless of time, place and position. DK: > ....the Mahavihara monks did not realize its far-reaching implications. > I think that, on the contrary, they were very aware of the far-reaching benefits of the work. The most important ancient commentary which Buddhaghosa relied on was the Mahaa-a.t.thakathaa, the commentary of the Mahavihara monks. He was invited and tested in his work by these monks who would have been fully aware, I believe, of any deviations. I appreciate that others, like James and DK, view this differently. I look forward to any further comments from either of you or anyone else and also to the other discussions on this thread. There are still four feet for anyone else to join in and take a look at;-) Thanks again, Michael, for introducing these comments. I greatly appreciate your own careful reflections and open mind. With metta, Sarah ===== 27048 From: nordwest Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Thanks Sarah, glad I checked this the posting, as it was adressed to Nina,. :) It is just a short answer-problem, when I say "We are already a buddha" I mean, that we don't need to wait for anything, and could (theoretically and practically) become a buddha right now. Every sentient being could do so. Of course we can't because we struggle with the fact that our mind is not pure, so we don't know what is real and what illusion. When I, or anyone as many masters use this phrase too, says "to become a buddha", then it is to be understood in the very same way like mentioned above. We have the buddha-nature, but there is still something "to do" to clear the defiled mind so it will become the Pure Mind again. The most important about "Transfer of merit" is not, where the merit goes, but the motivation behind it. It is the motivation to benefit not oneself but other beings with one's own merits. Rituals are very important, just wanna mention this. They help us to train mindfulness, e.g. when lightening incense we concentrate only on this, so it is training of mindfulness. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas & Nina, --- nordwest wrote: > Dear Nina, try not to become attached to orders in rituals etc. Anyorder > you make is the right one. There will be a point on the path, when we > all have to burn all buddhist texts, stop reading, and stop being a > buddhist, to become finally a buddha. Any dualism, "right order-worng > order" would become an obstruction to realizing complete emptiness. ..... I think it’s a good point about not mistaking rituals for being the path or necessarily wholesome states at all. When we follow such practices, such as the service RobM described with the pirit thread and water pouring and so on, it just depends on the intentions and understanding as he explained. We can only know for ourselves. Thomas, I asked Nina to help provide more references about ‘sharing merit’ <...> 27049 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 5:16am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 25 [Regarding the 4 discriminations, meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 25. "Knowledge about enunciation of language dealing with meaning and law" (par.21): there is the language that is individual essence, the usage that has no exceptions, (9) and deals with that meaning and that law. Any knowledge falling within the category concerned with the enunciation of that, with the speaking, with the utterance of that, concerned with the root-speech of all beings, the Magadhan language that is individual essence, in other words, the language of law ("dhamma"), [any knowledge that] as soon as it hears it spoken, pronounced, uttered, knows, 'This is the individual-essence language; this is not the individual-essence language'--[such knowledge] is "discrimination of language".(10) [442] One who has reached the discrimination of language knows, on hearing the words 'phasso, vedanaa'. etc., that that is the individual-essence language, and on hearing 'phassaa, vedano', etc., he knows that that is not the individual-essence language. (9) Byabhicaara (vyabhicaara): not in P.T.S. Dict.; normal grammarian's term for an 'exception'. (10) The idea behind the term 'individual-essence language' (sabhaavanirutti), that is to say, that there is a real name for each thing that is part of that thing's individual essence, is dealt with at DhsA. 391-92. Magadhan as 'the root speech of all beings' and the 'individual-essence language' is dealt with in greater detail at VbhA. 387. 'Phasso' and 'vedanaa' as respectively masc. and fem. nom. sing. have the correct terminations. 'Phassaa' and 'vedano' are wrong. --------------------------- 25. tatradhammaniruttaabhilaape ~naa.nanti tasmi.m atthe ca dhamme ca yaa sabhaavanirutti abyabhicaarii vohaaro. tadabhilaape tassa bhaasane udiira.ne ta.m bhaasita.m lapita.m udiirita.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavanirutti, aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti eva.m tassaa dhammaniruttisa~n~nitaaya sabhaavaniruttiyaa maagadhikaaya sabbasattaana.m muulabhaasaaya pabhedagata.m ~naa.na.m niruttipa.tisambhidaa. niruttipa.tisambhidaappatto hi phasso vedanaati evamaadivacana.m sutvaava aya.m sabhaavaniruttiiti jaanaati. phassaa vedanoti evamaadika.m pana aya.m na sabhaavaniruttiiti. 27050 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:39am Subject: Lobha, Tanha, Samudaya and Samyojana Dear Dhamma Friends, Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities. No other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma. Citta is consciousness or is the nature that perceives, knows, recognizes, is aware of, realizes the object. The object can be visual object, auditory object, smell, taste, bodily sense or ideas. There are 89 Cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Citta itself is a single thing. But depending on accompanying Cetasikas, time, place, leading Dhamma and so on there are infinite Cittas. But again when Citta with the same qualities are groupped, there becomes 89 Cittas. Cetasikas are the nature that condition Citta concerned.There are 52 Cetasikas. 1. 7 Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas 2. 6 Pakinnaka Cetasikas 3. 14 Akusala Cetasikas 4. 25 Sobhana Cetasikas Out of 14 Akusala Cetasikas 1. 4 Moha-rooted Cetasikas 1. Moha 2. Ahirika 3.Anottappa 4.Uddacca 2. 3 Lobha-rooted Cetasikas 1. Lobha 2. Ditthi 3. Mana 3. 4 Dosa-rooted Cetasikas 1.Dosa 2.Issa 3.Micchariya 4. Kukkucca 4. 3 Other Cetasikas 1. Thina 2. Middha 3. Vicikiccha Among them Lobha is one of powerful Akusala Cetasikas. It is so poerful that it binds Sattas so that they are not able to depart the Samsara. Lobha has other different names. It has Samudaya effect. It is included in Samudaya Sacca. It is also called Tanha. Tanha again has different types. There are Kama Tanha, Bhava Tanha, and Vibhava Tanha. May all beings be able to delete Tanha With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27051 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 4:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Dear Sarah - Thank you so very much for your kindness and sweetness. With much metta, Rita & Howard In a message dated 11/17/03 1:38:36 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > >Right now I'm too exhausted to do a search of any sort. > >We're in > >the midst of finishing up the settling my mother-in-law's affairs, the > >arrangements of which are complex. We just finished the last day of the > >formal > >"mourning" period for her, and I'm just a bit too done in right now to > >do much more > >than write things "off the top of my head". > ...... > I’ve been thinking about you and Rita. I’m sure you are exhausted after > being on call for so long, so please get plenty of rest and don’t expect > to be ‘back to normal’ in a hurry. Pace yourselves out. It all takes time, > far more than anticipated usually. One step at a time. > > Please let us know if there’s anyway we can help at this time by way of > any particular reminders or references or anything else on DSG. Meanwhile, > we appreciate any of your "off the top of my head" comments. Let us know > how you’re doing from time to time. > > Meanwhile a special extra dollop of metta and best wishes for sati and > panna even at times of exhaustion and mourning;-) > > "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa ti > yadaa pa~n~naaya passati > Atha nibbindati dukkhe > esa maggo visuddhiyaa" > > Dhp 279 > > "All Dhammas are without a soul, > when this, with wisdom,one discerns > then is one disgusted with ill; > this is the path to purity." (Naarada transl) > > Sarah /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27052 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Michael, James & All, > > So I think we all agree on the trunk now. James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that there is one goal but apparently several paths. They are: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12 Now, there has been great agitation over this and post and counter post about how there aren't actually several paths, there is only one path. Okay. However, support for this contention is quotes that are being taken from all through the Visudhimagga but not from the introduction itself, which Kalupahana discusses. What exactly does Buddhaghosa write in the introduction? How does he explain the title for his book? Does he write that several paths are actually one path leading to one goal, or does he explain it differently? Anyway, as Michael points out, this is a minor point of contention. The main thrust of Kalupahana's argument is that Buddhaghosa then takes the liberty of redefining these six sub-paths as three: morality, concentration and insight. For the sake of clarity and categorization, this would be fine, but then Buddhaghosa takes these inventions as the true definition and further defines these three categories using even more sub-categories that he invented. The result of this, because Buddhaghosa summarizes the Buddha's teaching and then takes each of his summaries as the original, is that his analysis grows more and more distant from what the Buddha actually taught. Buddhaghosa's commentary is then very much like a house of cards- ideas all balanced on each other- but take one out and they all fall. Nina and RobertK are looking at > the body and Suan's looking at the big picture and any Pali details. So > I'll try to help with the tail, especially as this is the part James has > picked up on;-) James: I think this is a minor contention also. DK doesn't quote the sutta he is referring to so it is somewhat a dead issue. Your guess work is fine in this regard (even then, the quote isn't from a sutta), but there is no reason to argue using guesswork. > > [note: DK = D.Kalupahana] > > > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. > "Just as Pali replaced Sinhala as the literary language at this time, so > the Sinhala commentaries were superseded by the Pali commentaries which in > addition were used more extensively. Buddhaghosa himself says, in the > introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa, that the commentary written in > Sinhala was of no benefit to the bhikkhus outside Ceylon and therefore he > was rendering it into Pali." James: Yes, this is of interest to me. However, this quote doesn't support your introductory summary of the article. What authors used the original commentaries, in Sinhala, after Buddhaghosa? How is this shown? > > Goonesekere also gives many examples to show that Buddhaghosa stuck to the > commentaries. For example in the introduction to the Samantapaasaadikaa > (comy to Vinaya), the list of Vinaya teachers given from Mahinda up to > `the present day' (yaava ajjatanaa) does not include theras who lived > after the first century A.C, indicating that the Sinhala commentaries were > almost completed by this time.] Metta, James 27053 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Dear Michael, >I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people >have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava >you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the >pali. >From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are >suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some >phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside >the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to >you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? >Robertk RobertK, That is precisely the argument. Some of the Pali commentaries (in the Visudhimagga for instance) entertain the idea that phenomena (or dhammas) are irreductible entities and have an inherent nature, are real in the ultimate sense (sabhava/svabhava). They are not called unconditioned but subject to dependent origination, but having a real nature. Those ideas were criticised initially by Nagarjuna, and later by the Mahayana in general. Interestingly Nagarjuna used as a basis for his criticism a sutta from the Pali Canon. Metta Michael 27054 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Dhamma Issues I Dear all, Alan put the Dhamma Issues I which I translated from Thai on his web under E Books: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I am starting now my translation of no II on the Latent tendencies, it is a whole book on this subject. Nina. 27055 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, op 16-11-2003 18:35 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: When rupa is object is it one or four or one group of > four? When we are mindful of the four elements in our body are we > mindful of them one at a time or all four at once? N: One characteristic at a time. Citta and thus also citta with mindfulness can have only one object at a time. Earth appears as hardness or softness, Fire appears as heat or cold. When citta experiences cold it cannot experience hardness at the same time. Nina. 27056 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Larry, Cohesion is not tangible object. It can only be experienced through the mind-door. You have a lot of texts, thank you. But, for me it is too fast. How can we absorb it all? I also try to read Vis text Pali apart from the Tiika. I still have to asnwer your Q about no 37. But if most people like this tempo, it is OK, but I am just dragging behind. Nina. op 16-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, > ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence > (water element). 27057 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Larry, Exalted is usually a transl of jhana. No chance to look at the Pali yet, but it must be jhanacitta that produces rebirth. Yes, it says mahaggata: that is jhanacitta. Nina. op 16-11-2003 23:05 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted > volition and limited and exalted kamma? 27058 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Sarah, >DK: The fact that this is an essentialist enterprise is made clear by his >analysis >of human life into discrete momentary events, which he justifies by >quoting a passage that is supposed to be from the Buddha but that has not >yet been traced in any of the early discourses. ..... >Sarah: As he doesn’t quote the passage here, my response is based on guess >work. I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The passage DK mentions is Vism 328. Metta Michael 27059 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:14am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hello James, Michael, RobK, Suan, Sarah and All, James, you say: ">Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that there is one goal but apparently several paths. They are: > 1. Insight (panna) > 2. Contemplation and insight ljhana and panna) > 3. Action (kamma) > 4. Morality or virtue (sila) > 5. Mindfulness (sati) > 6. Right effort (samma vayama), etc.12 > > Now, there has been great agitation over this and post and counter > post about how there aren't actually several paths, there is only one > path. Okay. However, support for this contention is quotes that are > being taken from all through the Visudhimagga but not from the > introduction itself, which Kalupahana discusses. What exactly does > Buddhaghosa write in the introduction? How does he explain the title > for his book? Does he write that several paths are actually one path > leading to one goal, or does he explain it differently? James - the best way is to see for your self - part of the Visuddhi- magga is on-line by permission of the Buddhist Publication Society (all rights reserved). (*Note to RobK - I can't open section 1 of the Vis. at this site and so had to cut and past from Dhamma-List Files Section.) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm The Path of Purification (Visuddhi-magga) Part I. Virtue (Sila) CHAPTER I. DESCRIPTION OF VIRTUE (Sila-niddesa) [1. Introductory] I. [1] `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle' (S.i,13) This was said. But why was it said? While the Blessed One was living at Savatthi, it seems, a certain deity came to him in the night, and in order to do away with his doubts he asked this question: `The inner tangle and the outer tangle- `This generation is entangled in a tangle. `And so I ask of Gotama this question: `Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?' (S.i, 13). 2. Here is the meaning in brief. Tangle is a term for the network of craving. For that is a tangle in the sense of lacing together, like the tangle called network of branches in bamboo thickets, etc., because it goes on arising again and again up and down among the objects [of consciousness] beginning with what is visible. But it is called the inner tangle and the outer tangle because it arises [as craving] for one's own requisites and another's, for one's own person and another's, and for the internal and external bases [for consciousness]. Since it arises in this way, this generation is entangled in a tangle. As the bamboos, etc., are entangled by the bamboo tangle, etc., so too this generation, in other words, this order of living beings, is all entangled by the tangle of craving- the meaning is that it is intertwined, interlaced by it. [2] And because it is entangled like this, so I ask of Gotama this question, that is why I ask this. He addressed the Blessed One by his race name as Gotama. Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle: who may disentangle this tangle that keeps the three kinds of existence entangled in this way? - What he asks is, who is capable of disentangling it? 3. However, when questioned thus, the Blessed One, whose knowledge of all things is unimpeded, Deity of Deities, excelling Sakka [Ruler of Gods], excelling Brahma, fearless in the possession of the four kinds of perfect confidence, Wielder of the Ten Powers, All-seer with unobstructed knowledge, uttered this stanza in reply to explain the meaning: `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. * * * 4. My task is now to set out the true sense, Divided into virtue and the rest, Of this same verse composed by the Great Sage. There are here in the Victor's Dispensation Seekers gone forth from home to homelessness, And who although desiring purity Have no right knowledge of the sure straight way Comprising virtue and the other two, Right hard to find, that leads to purity- Who, though they strive, here gain no purity. To them I shall expound the comforting Path Of Purification, pure in expositions, Relying on the teaching of the dwellers In the Great Monastery; let all those Good men who do desire purity Listen intently to my exposition. 5. Herein, purification should be understood as nibbana, which being devoid of all stains, is utterly pure. The Path of Purification is the path to that purification; it is the means of approach that is called the path. The meaning is, I shall expound that path of purification. 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, according as it is said: `Formations are all impermanent: `When he sees thus with understanding `And turns away from what is ill, `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). [3] And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: `He is near unto nibbana `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it is said: `By deeds, vision and righteousness, `By virtue, the sublimest life - `By these are mortals purified, `And not by lineage and wealth' (M.iii,262) And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: `He who is possessed of constant virtue, `Has understanding, and is concentrated, `Is strenuous and diligent as well, `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i, 53). And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two. 7. Here is a brief commentary [on the stanza]. Established well in virtue: standing on virtue. It is only one actually fulfilling virtue who is here said to `stand on virtue'. So the meaning here is this: being established well in virtue by fulfilling virtue. A man a living being. Wise : possessing the kind of understanding that is born of kamma by means of a rebirth-linking with triple root-cause. Develops Consciousness and Understanding : develops both concentration and insight. For it is concentration that is described here under insight. For it is concentration that is described here under the heading of `consciousness', and insight under that of `understanding'. Ardent (atapin) : possessing energy. For it is energy that is called `ardour (atapa)' in the sense of burning up and consuming (atapana-paritapana) defilements. He has that, thus he is ardent. Sagacious: it is understanding that is called `sagacity'; possessing that, is the meaning. This word shows protective understanding. For understanding is mentioned three times in the reply to the question. Herein, the first is native understanding, the second is understanding consisting in insight, while the third is the protective understanding that guides all affairs. He sees fear (bhayam ikkhati) in the round of rebirths, thus he is a bhikkhu. He succeeds in disentangling this tangle : [4] Just as a man standing on the ground and taking up a well-sharpened knife might disentangle a great tangle of bamboos, so too, he-this bhikkhu who possesses the six things, namely, this virtue, and this concentration described under the heading of consciousness, and this threefold understanding, and this ardour--, standing on the ground of virtue and taking up with the hand of protective-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life's continuity. But it is at the moment of the Path that he is said to be disentangling that tangle : at the moment of fruition he has disentangled the tangle and is worthy of the highest offerings in the word with its deities. That is why the Blessed One said : `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. 8. Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there. 9. What has been shown so far is the three trainings, the dispensation that is good in three ways, the necessary condition for the threefold clear-vision, etc., the avoidance of the two extremes and the cultivation of the middle way, the means to surmounting the states of loss, etc., the abandoning of defilements in three aspects, prevention of transgression, etc., purification from the three kinds of defilements, and the reason for the states of Stream-entry and so on. How? 10. Here the training of higher virtue is shown by Virtue; the training of higher consciousness, by Concentration' and the training of higher understanding, by Understanding. The dispensation's goodness in the beginning is shown by Virtue. Because of the passage `And what is the beginning of profitable things ? Virtue that is quite purifies'(S.v, 143), `rbril' (Dh. 183), Virtue is the beginning of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of non-remorse, and so on. Its goodness in the middle is shown by Concentration. [5] Because of the passage beginning `Entering upon the profitable' (Dh. 183), Concentration is the middle of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about the special qualities of supernormal-power, and so on. Its goodness in the end is shown by Understanding is the end of the dispensation. And that is good because it brings about equipoise with respect to the desired and the undesired. For this is said: `Just as a solid massive rock `Remains unshaken by the wind, `So too, in face of blame and praise `The wise remain immovable' (Dh. 81) Likewise the necessary condition for the triple clear-vision is shown by Virtue. For with the support of perfected virtue one arrives at the three kinds of clear-vision, but nothing besides that. The necessary condition for the six kinds of direct-knowledge is shown by Concentration. For with the support of perfected concentration one arrives at the six kinds of direct-knowledge, but nothing besides that. The necessary condition for the categories of discrimination is shown by Understanding. For with the support of perfected understanding one arrives at the four kinds of discrimination, but not for any other reason. And the avoidance of the extreme called devotion to indulgence of sense-desires is shown by Virtue. The avoidance of the extreme called devotion to mortification of self is shown by Concentration. The cultivation of the middle way is shown by Understanding. 12. Likewise the means for surmounting the states of loss is shown by Virtue; the means for surmounting the element of sense-desires, by Concentration; and the means for surmounting all becoming, by Understanding. And the abandoning of defilements by substitution of opposites is shown by Virtue that by suppression is shown by Concentration; and that by cutting off is shown by Understanding. 13. Likewise prevention of defilements' transgression is shown by Virtue; prevention of obsession [by defilement] is shown by Concentration; prevention of inherent tendencies is shown by Understanding. 14. Likewise the reason for the states of Stream-entry and Once- return is shown by Virtue; that for the state of Non-return, by Concentration; that for Arahantship, by Understanding. For the Stream- enterer is called `Perfected in the `kinds of virtue'; and likewise the Once-returner. But the Non-returner is called `Perfected in concentration'. And the Arahant is called `Perfected in understanding' (See A.i, 233). 15. So thus far these nine and other like triads of special qualities have been shown, that is, the three trainings, the dispensation that is good in three ways, the necessary condition for the threefold clear-vision, the avoidance of the two extremes and the cultivation of the middle way, the means for surmounting the states of loss etc., the abandoning of defilements in three aspects, prevention of transgression, etc., purification from the three kinds of defilements, and the reason for the states of Stream-entry and so on." --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" 27060 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Christine and All --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: James - the best way is to see for your self - part of the Visuddhi- > magga is on-line by permission of the Buddhist Publication Society > (all rights reserved). Thank you so much! I was not aware that portions of the Visudhimagga were available online (you seem to be very knowledgeable about Buddhist Internet sources; if you ever create a links page let me know…I bet it would be fantastic!). Anyway, now that I have read the introduction and compared it to Kalupahana's analysis, I really don't see what all the fuss is about. All of the fuss seems to be over this sentence: "However, there can be many paths (magga) leading to that one goal (ekayana)." In my ananlysis, Kalupahana isn't defining `goal' as `ekayana', he is defining the idea behind the whole sentence as `ekayana'. That is, when many minor paths (magga) become the one path that will lead toward the one goal: that is `ekayana'. Just as `ekayana' is used in the Satipatthana Sutta to describe how the eightfold path is the one way that leads to nibbana. Of course Kalupahana could have been a little clearer, but I saw what he was saying right away when I became more familiar with the part of the Visudhimagga he was discussing. Regardless, this isn't even a part of his criticism of Buddhaghosa, he is just laying the ground work here. Metta, James Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) 27061 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot experience hardness at the same time." Hi Nina, So the 4 elements are not inseparable. Larry 27062 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:32pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga - RobK Dear RobK, Just ignore my previous mention of not being able to access Ch.1 of Vis. As you probably realise, I simply didn't scroll down far enough. http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" 27063 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:39pm Subject: Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Nina, How are we to be mindful of the water element? Larry ps: I've been going through this section quickly because it all goes together but the footnotes are so long it is too much to put on one email. Anyway, we can slow down now. I think I've posted most of the argument. As far as I can tell, you, Sarah, and I are the only ones following this thread. I wonder what happened to Mike? L. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > Cohesion is not tangible object. It can only be experienced through the > mind-door. > You have a lot of texts, thank you. But, for me it is too fast. How can we > absorb it all? I also try to read Vis text Pali apart from the Tiika. I > still have to asnwer your Q about no 37. But if most people like this tempo, > it is OK, but I am just dragging behind. > Nina. > op 16-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Larry: The object of the touch sense is primary, not derived matter, > > ie. heat, extension/solidity, pressure (air element), coherence > > (water element). 27064 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Correction Hi Nina, Thanks for this. Very interesting. Can we say a desire can be generated with a jhana citta? Any ideas where we can find out more about "exalted volition"? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > Exalted is usually a transl of jhana. No chance to look at the Pali yet, but > it must be jhanacitta that produces rebirth. Yes, it says mahaggata: that is > jhanacitta. > Nina. > op 16-11-2003 23:05 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > > > Here is a correction to note 21. Also I was wondering what is exalted > > volition and limited and exalted kamma? 27065 From: Larry Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:11pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi all, Perhaps some of you don't know we have been conducting an in-depth study of the third book of the Visuddhimagga ("On Wisdom") since about June. The thread was originally identified as Vism. XIV 1,2,3 etc. I recently changed this to Vis. XIV. We are beginning with chapter 14 and the paragraphs are numbered. The easiest way to find a discussion on a particular paragraph is to find the link in Jon's index in the files section then scroll through the messages previous to that. It's a bit of a difficult read and takes some application and consideration to follow it. If you do decide to jump in, once we are finished you should have a good understanding of abhidhamma. What more could you want? Larry ps: If you identify your interests we can steer the discussion in that direction. L. 27066 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 0:55pm Subject: Re: Myanmar 4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Thank you, Rob. What you say below is helpful. Rob: A rupa gets it's characterisitic at stage 1, when it arises. At this point, the rupa is anittha (undesireable), ittha (moderately desireable) or ati-ittha (extremely desireable). Based on this inherent characteristic, the rupa is handled slightly differently at stage 2 of the process (i.e. "seeing" is done with an akusala vipaka citta or "seeing" is done with a kusala vipaka citta). I believe this to be a relatively minor technical issue. At stage 3 of the process, we react to the object and create new kamma. If the object is anittha and we react with lobha, this is "perversion of perception" (in less technical terms, "you are a wierdo" - masochists fall into this category). Connie: I think Sarah was giving me too much credit (below). I was thinking rupa would be neutral, but it's sinking in now, I think. ***** C: >I was > thinking that 'desirable rupa' meant there was, (sputter), somehow > something about the rupa itself that should make me recognize it as > being a good thing. But the characteristics of whichever rupa we talk > about stay the same, neutral, now one and now another being experienced. .... Sarah: I think we can only speculate about 'good' and 'bad' rupas being experienced, associating 'good' with pleasant of course;-) Whilst the feeling accompanying, say, seeing consciousness is neutral (with exceptions), I don't think we can describe the rupa as 'neutral', but your point is that they remain as they are conditioned , regardless of subsequent cittas and kilesas (defilements) which may arise. .... peace, connie 27067 From: connie Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 2:41pm Subject: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Sarah: p.s I'm sure many people may be confused by all these comments on Decisive Support Condition and the different kinds we're discussing. If you would like to write a summary of each, perhaps with a little introduction as to where this elephant trunk fits in, or post the details from Nina's book, maybe, in bite-size pieces, it would be helpful for others who'd also like to paddle along. Anyway, you think might bring others to where your comments are coming from would be good. Look, Sarah! A leaky raft of pieces floated out of various places... Nina's Conditions, TA's Paccaya, Amara's comments and Mahathera Ledi Sayadaw's The Patthanuddesa Dipani. Not exactly bite sized, but maybe we can take it apart and put it back into something the elephant can use. peace, connie There are three kinds of upanissaya-paccaya, decisive support-condition or strong dependence-condition; occurs when a phenomenon (nama, rupa or pannatti = paccaya, conditioning) assists another phenomenon (citta = paccayupanna dhamma, conditioned) that does not arise concurrently with it by being a powerful inducement/strong birthplace. "sufficient cause" [Sufficing condition by way of Suttanta may also be mentioned here. It is found in many such passages in the Pitakas as, "through intercourse with virtuous friends", "through association with sinful companions", "by living in the village", "by dwelling in the forest", and so forth. In short, the five cosmic orders (Panca-niyamadhamma) are the stronger sufficing conditions relating to the three worlds--the animate world, the inanimate world, and the world of space, to go on unceasingly through aeons of time.] 1. Arammanupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support/inducement of [desirable] object [arammana = paccaya] - conditions the citta by way of strong dependence; the dominant object acts as a main basis for subjects (arammanika). The citta is so attached that it can't turn away from the object & the same kind of citta arises more easily in the future. Excludes the Not Desirable = painful bodily feeling; dosa-mula-citta, moha-mula-citta (or accompanying cetasikas); etc. Neither nibbana nor the 8 lokuttara citta can be arammanupanissaya-paccaya for lobha; kusala can be powerful inducement for attachment and wrong view (arising with pleasure); attachment can be decisive support condition for further attachment; (concrete) rupas (music) can induce lobha; sense- & heart-bases and sense objects can induce lobha but not kusala citta. It depends on accumulated inclinations whether one has wise or unwise att'n to an object. similar to oject predominance condition 2. Anantarupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support of proximity/contiguity [of cittas] - preceding citta conditions only the immediately succeeding citta of the same type to arise w/out any intervening interval (javana, tadalambana/tadarammana) . The preceding consciousness (mother) acts as a main basis for the arising of its immediately succeeding consciousness (son). good/bad qualities accumulate (Nina talks of guarding senses) similar to proximity condition 3. Pakatupanissaya-paccaya: decisive support of natural condition; naturally known to the wise as a distinct sufficing condition. pakata: done properly, thoroughly; (habitual, firmly accumulated) pakati: naturally, by nature (without assistance of types 1 & 2) good/bad accumulated qualities (from the past become our 'nature, habit, tendency', conditioning cittas of the present) akusala, kusala and vipaka can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for either kusala or akusala; kamma can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for vipaka Nina mentions 'preparation of paths'. All past, present and future, internal and external, classes of consciousness together with their concomitants, all material qualities, Nibbána and concepts (pannatti), are natural sufficing conditions, severally related, as the case may be, to all the present classes of consciousness and their concomitants. 27068 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > >Dear Michael, > >I know very little about what Nagajuna said or proved, just what people > >have told me over the years. I am not sure but I think the term svabhava > >you use is from sanskrit and might be roughly the same as sabhava in the > >pali. > >From what you write I wonder if professor Kalupahana and yourself are > >suggesting that the ancient Theravada bhikkhus believed that some > >phenomena, apart from nibbana, were unconditioned? Also if we leave aside > >the semantics of sabhava/svabhava what does the word 'phenomena' mean to > >you or Nagajuna or Kalupahana? > >Robertk > > RobertK, > > That is precisely the argument. Some of the Pali commentaries (in the > Visudhimagga for instance) entertain the idea that phenomena (or dhammas) > are irreductible entities and have an inherent nature, are real in the > ultimate sense (sabhava/svabhava). They are not called unconditioned but > subject to dependent origination, but having a real nature. Those ideas were > criticised initially by Nagarjuna, and later by the Mahayana in general. > Interestingly Nagarjuna used as a basis for his criticism a sutta from the > Pali Canon. ================= Dear Michael, What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? RobertK 27069 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:24pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hello James, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: Metta, James Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) KKT: This is your << accumulations >> after one year on the DSG :-)) No offense is intended here. I cannot resist making this comment. Just for fun :-)) Metta, KKT 27070 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what >phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? >RobertK It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one..." Phenomena is the same as dhamma, like for example in sabbe dhamma anicca. Metta Michael 27071 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Ken O, I am not sure where you got the idea that I don't see the difference and importance of both insight and calm and not just insight or just calm, if you do have that idea at all. On the other hand, what you said in the following On my personal experience, mediation is good for calming of mind but is such calming of mind could lead to attachment to so called "calm". The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware that we will be attached to calm? and I personnally do not believe in one-pointed concentration meditation, I prefer investigation meditation bc it put the chances of attachment to calm lesser. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26927 give me the impression that you prefered insight to calm, mindfulness to concentration. Also, how is the sutta quote in message #26936 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26936 very clear that both of calm and insight are practise together and not one exclusively another? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27072 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry Ah, now I see where you are coming from in our thread on consciousness as object of consciusness, tec. The way you see it, if the 4 elements are inseparable, it means that if 1 of them is the object of consciousness then they must all be. I don't see that as a necessary assumption. To my understanding, consciousness takes only 1 object (dhamma, or a concept) at a time. Thus, no matter how many dhammas are arising and in what combination, only 1 of them can ever be the object of citta at a given time. So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real difference. In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that. That's one reason why it's so important to know just what these things called 'dhammas' are ;-)). Jon --- Larry wrote: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > > Hi Nina, > > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. > > Larry 27073 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:07pm Subject: Re: Lobha, Tanha, Samudaya and Samyojana Hi Htoo, Where in the discourses did the Buddha teach that Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities and no other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > Citta, Cetasika, Rupa and Nibbana are ultimate realities. No other single thing is a reality apart from these four Paramattha Dhamma. 27074 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 7:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. .... Sorry, I'm still lost. Vism 328 takes me to the Aaruppa-niddesa (immaterial states). I need another clue;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27075 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:12pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi KKT, --- phamdluan2000 wrote: > Metta, James > Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) > > > > > KKT: This is your << accumulations >> > after one year on the DSG :-)) > > No offense is intended here. > I cannot resist making this comment. > Just for fun :-)) .... ...And this is your <> too, KKT;-) (btw, were you referring to the 'yuck' or the use of Pali in spite of other intentions?) Good to see you around and look forward to more of your gentle wit. I’m sure you could contribute to the DK thread. How about looking at an elephant’s foot? James, one year already!;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27076 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Jon: "In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that." Hi Jon, This is how I see it too. But this still seems like separation of primary elements. Interestingly, this only applies to the body door. This is the only door that can experience primary elements. All other sense objects are derived matter. One solution would be to say primary elements are not objects of consciousness, hardness and temperature are derived matter, and movement and cohesion are concepts. But abhidhamma doesn't say that. Btw, could you spell out how this applies to consciousness when it is the object of consciousness and how it differs from a cetasika being an object of consciousness? It seems like we are heading toward saying the 6 senses are incapable of experiencing a complex reality (ie. 2 of anything) directly. Concept is necessary to understand things as they are. Is that why they call it dukkha? Larry 27077 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:27pm Subject: Pali Glossary update Hi Friends, For those of you who would like to check the meanings of most the Pali words used on DSG or to build up your vocabulary of some of the key terms, there is a simple Pali glossary in the Files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The credit for this goes to Kom who based it on a glossary used in Nina's books. Recently Connie has also worked to improve it, by adding the correct (or preferred) "Paali" spelling (Velthius scheme) in brackets after the simplified 'Pali' spelling we often use. The Velthius scheme spelling reflects the diacritical marks we're unable to use easily on a standard keyboard. I think that it may be helpful for many people to print this glossary out to have handy when reading posts. Many thanks to Kom and Connie. Metta, Sarah ======== 27078 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 Hi Nina, Regarding mindfulness of the water element, I looked through Visuddhimagga, MN 28, and the Satipatthana Comy. and my conclusion is that mindfulness of the elements is a conceptual analysis. This would mean there would be no problem with mindfulness of the water element even though it can't be sensed. Below is a snip from the Satipatthana Comy. Larry "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m17220.html 27079 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 8:59pm Subject: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. I’ll leave the other comments until I find more strength;-) ..... S: > > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that > you > > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably > available > > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this > time. .... > James: Yes, this is of interest to me. However, this quote doesn't > support your introductory summary of the article. What authors used > the original commentaries, in Sinhala, after Buddhaghosa? How is this > shown? ..... The author says: “The references in the Mahavamsa to the recitation of the canon together with the commentaries would not prove the existence of the Sinhala commentaries at these [later] periods, as a.t.thakathaa could equally refer to the Pali commentaries. However, quotations from the Sinhala a.t.thakathaa in the works of later authors would prove their existence at the time these books wer written, and they would appear to have been available till about the thirteenth century.” She then gives a footnote with a very long list of such works - far too long for me to type out, so here’s just a small part: “The Dhampiyaa-a.tuvaagaa.tapadaya, a work dated in the tenth century A.C. contains quotations from these commentaries in the original Sinhalese. In the Sahassavatthuppakara.na, a work asigned to a period before the eleventh century A.C. the author says in the introduction that he is following the method of the Siihala.t.thakathaa....” There are about another dozen or so such books, written up to the 13th century, mentioned with quotations and references to the Sinhalese commentaries. I'll them all if you like when I have time. James, no one knows for sure when or how these commentaries disappeared. I’m merely reporting back what I’ve just read here. Incidentally, it’s Wheel no 113/114. My copy is 30yrs old, so I’ve no idea if it’s still in print etc. The article was originally for the ‘Encyclopaedia of Buddhism around 1960 by Mrs Goonesekere, a Pali scholar. I note in the introduction that she died soon after in her 30s. Metta, Sarah ======= 27080 From: shakti Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pali Glossary update Dear Friends, Thank you so much for the updated pali glossary. What a gift! Special thanks to Kom and Connie for all the work. I have already printed out a copy and will use it when traveling instead of carrying Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary. With metta, Shakti Sarah wrote: Hi Friends, For those of you who would like to check the meanings of most the Pali words used on DSG or to build up your vocabulary of some of the key terms, there is a simple Pali glossary in the Files: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ The credit for this goes to Kom who based it on a glossary used in Nina's books. Recently Connie has also worked to improve it, by adding the correct (or preferred) "Paali" spelling (Velthius scheme) in brackets after the simplified 'Pali' spelling we often use. The Velthius scheme spelling reflects the diacritical marks we're unable to use easily on a standard keyboard. I think that it may be helpful for many people to print this glossary out to have handy when reading posts. Many thanks to Kom and Connie. Metta, Sarah ======== 27081 From: Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 9:21pm Subject: escribe Sarah, I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words like "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga thread in a different way? Larry 27082 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 10:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] escribe Hi Larry, --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, > > I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words like > "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga thread in > a different waay? ..... Hmmm......that Q’s too difficult for me. I’m rather used to working along with escribe however. Here are a couple of clues: 1. If you have the text, find the most infrequently used DSG word you can in the on-line passage you want to retrieve. For example, if I wanted to find the first extract you posted, I’d probably choose ‘stanza’. You’ll get a number of entries, but just scroll down to the first LBIDD one that looks likely. [just checked and that was easy -2 secs]. More reliable and just as quick [timed the same] is to click on DSG homepage [saved at top of the screen], click on files, Jon’s Vism links to get this: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/messages/23711?expand=1 (Escribe does occasionally miss messages too). The other useful thing you can do with escribe is to click on any message by LBIDD and then click on ‘other messages by this author’ to trace back Vism entries. As you send a lot of messages, it might have limited value and involve quite a lot of scrolling. I think you should carry on as you are. With Jon’s back-up file, it’s really very easy for anyone to track down the entries, even if he gets a bit behind at times as well;-) You’re doing a great job on the extracts, esp. with the notes as well. Just because others don’t contribute, doesn’t mean they’re not taking partial or full note. I think it’s very helpful and the Qs you raise are excellent. I’d rather just let you and Nina sort out the pace. Metta, Sarah http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ ======= 27083 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Hi Thomas, I appreciate your further comments. --- nordwest wrote: > Thanks Sarah, glad I checked this the posting, as it was adressed to > Nina,. :) .... We have our ways of trying to get you to check all posts;-) ... > It is just a short answer-problem, when I say "We are already a buddha" > I mean, that we don't need to wait for anything, and could > (theoretically and practically) become a buddha right now. ..... I agree with the sentiment about not needing to wait, but I don’t agree that we could become ‘a buddha’ right now. This is not according to what The Buddha taught. Those who listened carefully and had the right conditions could develop insight and become enlightened. This doesn’t mean that even his key disciples became ‘a buddha’. In the tipitaka, the use of ‘Buddha’ is used very precisely to refer to a) the Sammaa-Sambuddha or Universal Buddha: “Now, someone, in things never heard before, understands by himself the truth, and he therein attains omniscience, and gains mastery in the powers. Such a one is called a Universal Buddha, or Enlightened One” (Pug 29). b) Pacceka-Buddha or Independently Enlightened One: In this case, there is not the ability to proclaim the Dhamma to others and apparently they do not arise while the teachings of a Samma-Sambuddha are known. There are many conditions for both kind of Buddha including the need to make an aspiration before a live Samma-Sambuddha. This post gives the conditions for becoming a Bodhisatta: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/18577 You may like to look at others under ‘Bodhisatta’ in U.P.: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... >Every > sentient being could do so. Of course we can't because we struggle with > the fact that our mind is not pure, so we don't know what is real and > what illusion. .... I fully agree with you about the importance of determining ‘what is real and what illusion’. What is real as we write to each other now in your view, Thomas? .... >When I, or anyone as many masters use this phrase too, > says "to become a buddha", then it is to be understood in the very same > way like mentioned above. We have the buddha-nature, but there is still > something "to do" to clear the defiled mind so it will become the Pure > Mind again. .... I don’t think there is any mention of us having the ‘buddha-nature’ in the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, Thomas. Also, the idea of clearing the defiled mind to find the [hidden] pure mind is contradictory to what we read and understand about impermanence and conditioned changing realities. You might like to look at the comments I made on ‘present moment’ in my post to Michael on the Buddhaghosa thread yesterday. When the consciousness is defiled or unwholesome, there is no ‘pure mind’ hidden at all. .... > > The most important about "Transfer of merit" is not, where the merit > goes, but the motivation behind it. It is the motivation to benefit not > oneself but other beings with one's own merits. ... Agreed. .... > Rituals are very important, just wanna mention this. They help us to > train mindfulness, e.g. when lightening incense we concentrate only on > this, so it is training of mindfulness. .... I think we have a different understanding of mindfulness too;-) What you say is how I understand mindfulness as we might use it conventionally. It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) I hope we can continue this discussion. I appreciate that it may be difficult for people who are used to the language and teachings of other traditions when they come here and have every sentenced pulled apart. Metta, Sarah ====== 27084 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:13am Subject: Anapanasati, II a Anapanasati Part II a: We should go back to the first tetrad: (I) Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long². (II) Breathing in short, he knows ³I breathe in short²; or breathing out short, he knows ³I breathe out short². (III) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². (IV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in tranquillizing the bodily activity²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out tranquillizing the bodily activity², at that time, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. I say, monks, that of bodies, this is (a certain) one, that is to say breathing-in and breathing-out. That is why, on that occasion, monks, the monk is faring along contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly conscious (of it), mindful (of it) having put away the covetousness and dejection in the world. In the word commentary to the above quoted sutta the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 223-226) mentions with regard to the first tetrad (group of four clauses, marked I-IV) of the sutta the different stages of insight-knowledge which are developed after emerging from jhåna. We read Vis. 223 < On emerging from the attainment he sees that the in-breaths and out-breaths have the physical body and the mind as their origin; and that just as, when a blacksmith¹s bellows are being blown, the wind moves owing to the bag and to the man¹s appropriate effort, so too, in-breaths and out-breaths are due to the body and the mind. Next he defines the in-breaths and out-breaths and the body as materiality, and the consciousness and the states associated with the consciousness as the immaterial... Having defined nama-rupa in this way, he seeks its condition...> The Visuddhimagga then mentions all the different stages of insight (Visuddhimagga VIII, 223 -225). We then read: **** Nina. 27085 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): from Sarah Dear Sarah. enjoying very much your post on Buddhaghosa. I also have the booklet of Goonesekere but had forgotten about it. Nina. op 17-11-2003 13:10 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> > [By the way, James, I was looking at a Wheel publication today that you > might find of interest: Buddhist Commentarial Literature by l.R. > Goonesekere. He gives evidence to suggest that the ancient Sinhala > commentaries referred to by Buddhaghosa and others were probably available > until the thirteenth century and used by later authors until this time. 27086 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, Let’s look at the elephant’s trunk again. I’m glad to see your contributions: --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: Actually, I am not in agreement with anything. At the > beginning of his chapter, Kalupahana is analyzing how Buddhaghosa > explains the title of his treatse "The Path of Purification" > (Visudhimagga). Kalupahana states that Buddhaghosa explains that > there is one goal but apparently several paths. .... Ok, we’ve all read the same material (thanks to Christine’s help). You clarify DK’s comments in another post as meaning: J: >That is, when many minor paths (magga) become the one path that will lead toward the one goal: that is `ekayana'.> ..... Can you show me exactly where in the extract posted that Buddhaghosa suggests there are ‘several paths’ or ‘many minor paths (magga) [which] become the one path. What I read here and throughout the text (as I showed in the rejected quotes) is a clear description that there is one Path taught in different ways and showing different aspects: Vism, ch 1: >5. Herein, purification should be understood as nibbana, which being devoid of all stains, is utterly pure. The Path of Purification is the path to that purification; it is the means of approach that is called the path. The meaning is, I shall expound that path of purification. 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone, <...> And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said: <..> And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., <...> And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two.> ***** In other words, one path of purification taught or highlighted in different ways. All those who have become enlightened have to follow the same route of satipatthana. Wisdom (panna) has to realize the same insights in the same order. There is no other way. Mindfulness, effort, concentration and so on are the mental factors which accompany wisdom at each moment of satipatthana. They are not separate paths or minor paths. ..... J: > Anyway, as Michael points out, this is a minor point of contention. > The main thrust of Kalupahana's argument is that Buddhaghosa then > takes the liberty of redefining these six sub-paths as three: > morality, concentration and insight. .... Leaving aside the ‘sub-paths’, is it true that these categories were invented by Buddhaghosa? A couple of days ago, I wrote: S: >Back to the Vism text and a little later, the ONE path is stressed again(ch XV1, 95): “Also THE path is of ONE kind [my caps]as what should be developed. It is of two kinds classed according to serenity and insight, or classed according to seeing and developing. It is three kinds classed according to the three aggregates; for the [path], being selective, is included by the three aggregates, which are comprehensive, as a city is by a kingdom.” This is followed by a passage in M i,301 which elaborates on why it is said the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates of virtue, concentration and wisdom.< To quote further from the Culavedella Sutta, MN 44 on the Noble Eightfold Path: “Lady, are the three aggregates included by the Noble Eightfold Path, or is the Noble Eightfold Path included by the three aggregates?* “The three aggregates are not included by the Noble eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates. Right speech, right action, and right livelihood - these states are included in the aggregate of virtue. Right effort, right mindfulness, and right concentration - these states are included in the aggregate of concentration. Right view and right intention - these states are included in the aggregate of wisdom.” *khandha here refers to the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path, ie virtue (siila), concentration (samaadhi), and wisdom (pa~n~naa). Metta, Sarah ======= 27087 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Accumulations - for comment/Anapanasati Hi Victor, > The question is, is there a danger that we might not known or aware > that we will be attached to calm? k: with regard to this question, there is always a danger for attachment to calm just that now I do not have any Buddhist refernce now. I will in future if read the suttas again will point it out to you. This type of attachment is very subtle, very difficult to detect. One gross example i think of now is that, if one happens to feel like going into again and again to crave for that type of experience that type of elation and calmness, subtle attachment of calm has been developed. > Also, how is the sutta quote in message #26936 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26936 > very clear that both of calm and insight are practise together and > not one exclusively another? > k: Different people looking a certain sutta quote will derive different meanings due to their past kamma and present understanding. I interpret that it entails both concentration and insight to go into higher jhanas and not exclusive of one another. Hence both have to be practise together and not exclusively. How to practise together, it is describe in the concentration sutta. kind regards Ken O 27088 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): from Sarah Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah. > enjoying very much your post on Buddhaghosa. I also have the booklet of > Goonesekere but had forgotten about it. .... I had long forgotten it too. As usual, I was looking for quite another Wheel, when I came across it like a hidden treasure. Sometimes I find old wheels or passages in texts which I've obviously read before, but quite forgotten. I was reflecting again about how any academic or conceptual knowledge will just get forgotten in this life or at the end of life. Only true wisdom will be accumulated and developed. I also came across the Wheel 'Buddhism in Myanmar, A short history'wheel 399/401 in my search, which I plan to read at the weekend. It also says in the intro to Goonasekere's wheel that it was reprinted as Dhamma-dana by her husband and relations. We have to be grateful for so many acts of dhamma-dana that we're able to read the books we do. Metta, Sarah ====== 27089 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] escribe Larry I think the problem is the space between the 2 words -- I suspect that only strings without a space can be searched. In the subject heading, try replacing the space with a stop or underscore. That way you will be able to search by subject heading (that's why I chose 'Vism.EngPali.XIV' as the call sign for the English-Pali posts). The same applies to searches here on Yahoo Groups. Jon --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Sarah, > > I noticed the search function on escribe doesn't work for words > like > "way 76" or "vism. xiv". Should I be titling the visuddhimagga > thread in > a different way? > > Larry 27090 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Deep Friends: Deep is Dependent Origination: Deep is Ignorance as not seeing nor understanding the 4 Noble Truths. Deep is Construction as creating & accumulating future by Intention only. Deep is Consciousness as empty of Self & absent of Agent yet rebirth linking. Deep is Name&Form as simultaneously arising twins, both separable & not. Deep is 6 Senses as the doors, field of world & only objective source. Deep is Contact as encounter, meeting, touchdown & all imprinting. Deep is Feeling as labeling the objects as pleasant, painful or neutral. Deep is Craving as the insatiable seeker, dragging along urge & pain. Deep is Clinging as taking up, grasping, attaching, unable to relinquish. Deep is Becoming as effecting future destinations & modes of being. Deep is Birth as conception, generation, manifestation & being born. Deep is Ageing, Decay & Death as inevitable change & falling away. Verily, Deep as an ocean abyss is this Dependent Origination.... Not comprehending this make us come back here again & again! Source: SumangalaVilasini [453]. Buddhaghosa's commentary to Mahanidana Sutta. Digha Nikaya 15. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 27091 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 2:04am Subject: 1st Jhana Entry A friend asked: How is 1st Jhana attained ??? First good morality have to be observed otherwise will recurrent regrets stir up & distract the mind... Calm of Body & Mind have to be established by breathing. Focus fixed on the air-touch inside nose. Then the entry into 1st Jhana have these 10 factors: 1: Absence of Sensual Urge 2: Absence of Ill Will 3: Absence of Laziness & Lethargy 4: Absence of Restlessness & Regrets 5: Absence of Sceptical Doubt 6: Presence of Directed Thinking 7: Presence of Sustained Thinking 8: Presence of Pleasure 9: Presence of Happiness 10: Presence of Unified Focus Can strongly recommend the Path of Purification for details: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=771110 With Upekkha http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ 27092 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 0:25am Subject: Bliss & Beauty ! Friends: The 4 Divine Couplings: _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Goodwill with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent state of exquisite Bliss & Beauty emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Sympathy with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Infinite Space emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Mutual Joy with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Infinite Consciousness emerges. _____________ When one joins release of mind by Universal Equanimity with Awareness with Curiosity with Enthusiasm with Rapture with Tranquility with Concentration with Indifference Then the excellent formless state of Nothingness emerges. ---oo0oo--- Source: Sariputta Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. : - ] bhikkhu_samahita@y... Friendship is truly GREATEST ! For Gladdening of Good People ! Goodwill Motivates all Noble Life ! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ Easy subscription by sending an email to: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27093 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Thanks Michael, I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this means 'essence'? But he doesn't object to such words as dhamma (or dhatu, element, or ayatana, sense field, or khandha, aggregate,?) Does he object to words such as lakkhana, characteristic? I would like to stress that although sabhava means essence, whne the comemntaries talk about sabhava dhammas they go to lengths to stress that sabhava in such cases never means something unconditioned (except for nibbana). So if we look at for example feeling. This is sabhava dhamma (as against asabhava such as 'soul' which is imaginary). Feeling is impermanent, dukkha and anatta. There are various kinds of feeling when we consider by way of door. So the Visuddhimagga in the section on Paticcasamuppada explains by way of the eye-door: 'beginning with eye-contact is a condition in eight ways as conascence, mutuality, support, result, nutriment association, presence and non- disappaearence conditions, for the five kinds of feelings that have respectively eye sensitivity etc. as their respective basis...' And in the Phena Sutta (A Lump of Foam) which Sarah quoted some time back the commentary by Buddhaghosa says about feeling: ( translated by B.Bodhi:) ***** note 190: "Spk: a bubble (bubbu.la) is feeble and cannot be grasped, for it breaks up as soon as it is seized; so too feeling is feeble and cannot be grasped as permanent and stable. As a bubble arises and ceases in a drop of water and does not last long, so too with feeling: 100,000 `ko.tis' of feelings arise and cease in the time of a fingersnap (one ko.ti = 10 million). As a bubble arises in dependence on conditions, so feeling arises in dependence on a sense base, an object, the defilements, and contact." I include this just to show how much stress is laid on conditionality in the commentaries. There is never any hint that dhammas could exist independent of conditions. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > >What is the sutta that Nagajuna refers to? And I still wonder what > >phenomena means to you/Nagajuna/Kalupahana? > >RobertK > > It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: > > "By & large, Kaccayana, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a > polarity, that of existence & non-existence. But when one sees the > origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, > 'non-existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one > sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, > 'existence' with reference to the world does not occur to one..." > > Phenomena is the same as dhamma, like for example in sabbe dhamma anicca. > > Metta > Michael > 27094 From: abhidhammika Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:19am Subject: Re: Dhamma Issues I Dear Nina Thank you for this information, and looking forward to your new work on latent tendencies. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: Dear all, Alan put the Dhamma Issues I which I translated from Thai on his web under E Books: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ I am starting now my translation of no II on the Latent tendencies, it is a whole book on this subject. Nina. 27095 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi Michael & All, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > Thanks Michael, > I think I understand the points Kalupahana is trying to make. > Is it right that he objects to the word 'sabhava' because this > means 'essence'? <...> M: > > It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: .... In the following post I quoted a few passages from B.Bodhi's very extensive commentary note translations to this sutta and added a few notes which you're welcome to follow up on or disagree with: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m11205.html You might also find it useful to look at some of the posts under 'sabhava' in UP. There have been long-running discussions on this topic here;-) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Apologies if this seems like an overload. Metta, Sarah ====== 27096 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:25am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 26, 27 [Regarding the 4 discriminations: meaning, law, language, perspicuity] 26. "Knowledge about kinds of knowledge" (par.21): when a man is reviewing and makes any of the foregoing kinds of knowledge the object [of his knowledge], then any knowledge in him that has knowledge as its object is "discrimination of perspicuity", and so is any knowledge about these aforesaid kinds of knowledge, which is concerned with details of their individual domains, functions, and so on. 26. ~naa.nesu ~naa.nanti sabbattha ~naa.namaaramma.na.m katvaa paccavekkhantassa~naa.naaramma.na.m ~naa.na.m, yathaavuttesu vaa tesu ~naa.nesu sagocarakiccaadivasena vitthaarato ~naa.na.m pa.tibhaanapa.tisambhidaati attho. 27. And these four kinds of discrimination can be placed in two categories: the plane of the trainer and the plane of the non-trainer. Herein, those of the chief disciples and great disciples come into the category of the non-trainer's plane. Those of the Elder Aananda, the householder Citta, the layman Dhammika, the householder Upaali, the laywoman Khujjuttaraa, etc., come into the category of the trainer's plane. 27. catassopi cetaa pa.tisambhidaa dviisu .thaanesu pabheda.m gacchanti sekkhabhuumiya~nca asekkhabhuumiya~nca. tattha aggasaavakaana.m mahaasaavakaana~nca asekkhabhuumiya.m pabhedagataa. aanandatthera cittagahapati dhammikaupaasaka upaaligahapati khujjuttaraaupaasikaadiina.m sekkhabhuumiya.m. 27097 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry A reply to part of your post. --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Jon: "In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still > be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any > 'association' > with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to > that." > > Hi Jon, > > This is how I see it too. But this still seems like separation of > primary elements. When something that has coarisen with something else is experienced individually, that does not mean there is any separation of those 2 things in terms of their co-dependence at that moment. Different sets of conditioning factors. It's like this: While A and B arise in this world dependent on each other, only one or the other can ever be the object of consciousness at a given moment The factors relevant to the arising of A and B, and the factors relevant to their being the object of consciousness, are quite different. > It seems like we are heading toward saying the 6 senses are > incapable of > experiencing a complex reality (ie. 2 of anything) directly. > Concept is > necessary to understand things as they are. Consciousness only ever takes a single object, and yes, concepts are necessary for funtioning in the world. > Is that why they call it dukkha? Sorry, you've lost me. Is what why they call what dukkha? Jon 27098 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 1:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/17/03 11:21:13 PM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is > concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being > experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real > difference ============================== The fundamental question that arises for me is: "Exactly *where* does the alleged group of dhammas (only one of which is experienced) arise?". For example, when one is experiencing the coldness of a "metal rod", exactly *where* is the hardness? For that matter, other than as an object of consciousness *where* is the coldness? Another closely related question is: "By what means is one aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), when only one rupa is experienced?" I could come up with several theories about this. One is that the rupas of a group of rupas have dependency relations holding among them, that they all eventually appear as objects of consciousness, but one at a time in a sequence determined by those dependencies (or by other conditions in the mindstream). Another theory is that all these rupas do appear in the "mindstream" at the same time, but all but one of them only subliminally. Another is that all but one rupa in the group are missing some sort of "actualization condition", though all other conditions for their arising in consciousness have occurred, but the lack of that one condition prevents them from actually arising as experiences, and remaining only as unrealized potentialities. (For each of these "explanations", the only means of knowing about the "group" seems to be inference.) Are any of these theories, or some unmentioned alternative, given as explanation in the Abhidhamma? Actually, if I were to have a choice in the matter, which I do not, the second theory involving subliminal arising has the most appeal to me. That theory seems to more easily allow for how one could come to know about the unobserved rupas of the group: Having arisen, albeit subliminally, they would have left traces in the mindstream that could be examined (by a suitable trained mind) after the fact. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27099 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael >Sorry, I'm still lost. Vism 328 takes me to the Aaruppa-niddesa >(immaterial states). I need another clue;-) Yeah, I know. The book does not give any information about what the numbers mean. One would have to ask DK. But anyway there is a reference for his quote. Metta Michael 27100 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:37am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi KKT, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" wrote: > Hello James, > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" > wrote: > > > Metta, James > Ps. Yuck! I have never used so many Pali words! ;-)) > > KKT: This is your << accumulations >> > after one year on the DSG :-)) > > No offense is intended here. > I cannot resist making this comment. > Just for fun :-)) > > > Metta, > > > KKT No offense taken. Perhaps it is a wake-up call? ;-) I was wondering when you would pop up again. Glad my silly comment inspired an appearance. Metta, James 27101 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:41am Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi KKT, > James, one year already!;-) > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Hi Sarah, Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been completely banned (at least not yet ;-). Metta, James 27102 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Thomas and all, Sarah: I don’t think there is any mention of us having the ‘buddha-nature’ in the Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, Thomas. Also, the idea of clearing the defiled mind to find the [hidden] pure mind is contradictory to what we read and understand about impermanence and conditioned changing realities. Michael The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this discussion. In this sutta we read: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while the second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. The mind has to be pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled in order to be purified. If the mind were totally pure (or in other words already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if it were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. So, how to solve this puzzle? Metta Michael 27103 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / transference of merit. Hello Sarah, Sarah: It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) Michael: This needs some additional clarification. First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of mindfulness being present. Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the burden laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind is the mind of an arahant. I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which has moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite different from pure/impure. Metta Michael 27104 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati, II a Hello Nina, Nina: Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he knows ³I breathe out long.² He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the whole body². Michael: Nina, I am very interested in this first tetrad of the sutta because it connects with my meditation practice. Is it possible to expand a little bit on the meaning of ‘knows’ and ‘trains’. I think those are clear pointers for someone who is involved in the practice of meditation. Metta Michae 27105 From: shakti Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 (Jon) Jon, I'm confused about something that you said. I thought that I heard once, that citta could never take concepts as an object. ??? With metta, shakti Jonothan Abbott wrote: ---snip --- I don't see that as a necessary assumption. To my understanding, consciousness takes only 1 object (dhamma, or a concept) at a time. Thus, no matter how many dhammas are arising and in what combination, only 1 of them can ever be the object of citta at a given time. So a group of dhammas can be inseparable as far as their arising is concerned, but as far as the precise moment of actually being experienced is concerned their mutual dependency makes no real difference. In the case of for example a group of rupas, each will still be experienced through its own appropriate doorway, and any 'association' with other coarisen rupas is made by the mind-door subsequent to that. That's one reason why it's so important to know just what these things called 'dhammas' are ;-)). Jon --- Larry wrote: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > > Hi Nina, > > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. > > Larry 27106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45 mahaggata citta. Hi Larry, op 17-11-2003 22:46 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for this. Very interesting. Can we say a desire can be > generated with a jhana citta? N: Never. Jhanacitta is citta without attachment, it is kusala citta of a high degree. L:Any ideas where we can find out more > about "exalted volition"? N: all over the Tipitaka, also in the suttas: translated as the first meditation, etc. Or as musing. Volition with mundane jhanacitta is kusala kamma of a high degree. We read in the Vis. about the senses: created by kamma sourcing from desire to see, etc. It was because of conditions that we are born here where there are sense impressions. In the past we had desire to experience sense objects, and we have now. We desire to see, hear and experience all the sense impressions. Those who cultivate jhana see the disadvantages of sense impressions, they want to be away from them. Rupajhanacitta (rupavacara kusala citta) that arises shortly before dying produces birth in rupabrahma planes where there are seeing, hearing but not the other sense impressions. The beings of those planes are more refined. In the arupa brahmaplanes there is no rupa, only nama, thus no sense impressions at all. Nina. 27107 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Larry, op 17-11-2003 22:27 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "When citta experiences cold it cannot > experience hardness at the same time." > So the 4 elements are not inseparable. N: They are inseparable, they arise and fall away in a group consisting of at least eight rupas. Visible object is one of those eight, but it does not appear to the citta all the time. Only when there are specific conditions. Hardness does not appear all the time, cold may appear. We can verify even on the level of thinking, that we cannot think of hardness and cold at the same time. Hardness.. cold..., try it out. When seeing sees visible object, there cannot be at the same time the experience of hardness through the bodysense. Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway. But, this does not mean that visible object is floating by itself in the air, it needs earth, solidity, as a foundation, and it needs the other three elements. Nina. P.S. By the way, some people do follow this thread even though they are silent. Someone told me expressively that he reads all mails. And so there are others who participate silently. Some people lack time to react much, others find it a very difficult subject, and it is difficult. Nina. 27108 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi Larry, The footnotes are useful and make my transl work lighter, because they are from the Tiika. op 17-11-2003 22:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > How are we to be mindful of the water element? N: We cannot try to be mindful of it. Whatever appears through one of the six doors is the object of sati. We cannot select anything. Water, cohesion, is a subtle rupa. Vis. XIV, 73:< What is subtle is far because it is difficult to penetrate... >The other three Great Elements are gross rupas, because of impinging. They are near, because easy to penetrate, we read in the same para. Nina. 27109 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 24 B Commentary 24 B Relevant sutta passage: metta.m raahulaa bhaavana.m bhaavehi. develop loving kindness, Rahula. Co text: 120. metta.m raahulaati kasmaa aarabhi? taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m. As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³such nature² (of the arahat). he.t.thaa hi taadibhaavalakkha.na.m dassita.m, Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, na ca sakkaa aha.m taadii homiiti akaara.naa bhavitu.m, but it is not possible to develop ³such nature² when there are no conditions for being so; napi ``aha.m uccaakulappasuto bahussuto laabhii, nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy, ma.m raajaraajamahaamattaadayo bhajanti, aha.m taadii homii''ti the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², imehi kaara.nehi koci taadii naama hoti, someone cannot be called ³of such nature² because of these reasons. mettaadibhaavanaaya pana hotiiti However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. taadibhaavassa kaara.nadassanattha.m ima.m desana.m aarabhi. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the condition for being of ³such nature². English: As to the phrase, mettaa raahulaa, (develop loving kindness, Rahula) why did he begin (with these words)? In order to explain the condition for ³I am of such nature² (of the arahat). Before, the characteristic of ³such nature² was explained, but it is not possible to develop ³such nature² when there are no conditions for being so; nor when one thinks, ³I am belonging to a noble family, I have heard much and I am wealthy,the king , his ministers and so on associate with me², someone cannot be called ³of such nature² because of these reasons. However, one can be ³of such nature² by the development of loving-kindness and so on. Therefore, the Buddha began this teaching (of mettå) in order to explain the condition for being of ³such nature². Nina. 27110 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion Hi Larry, op 18-11-2003 05:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > Regarding mindfulness of the water element, I looked through > Visuddhimagga, MN 28, and the Satipatthana Comy. and my conclusion is > that mindfulness of the elements is a conceptual analysis. This would > mean there would be no problem with mindfulness of the water element > even though it can't be sensed. Below is a snip from the Satipatthana > Comy. > "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or > disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, > in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of > caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' N: He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another one. Does this make sense to you? Nina. 27111 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, James and al, Sarah: What I read here and throughout the text (as I showed in the rejected quotes) is a clear description that there is one Path taught in different ways and showing different aspects: Michael: I think the only place in the Canon which has a clear reference to one path is the Satippathana Sutta - MN 10 & DN22. On the other hand it is generally accepted that the Noble Eightfold Path, with its subdivision into sila, samadhi and pañña, should be regarded as the main highway or main path in the teachings of the Canon. But upon reading the many suttas that describe the advice given by the Buddha, and his disciples, in various different situations, one comes across a bewildering array of options in relation to that main highway. Those options can be regarded as ramifications of that main path but they in themselves can also be called paths of practice, why not? For the practitioner who is devoted to developing the first jhana, and insight based on that jhana, that is his path of practice, while for the practitioner who has developed up to the fourth jhana and wants to develop supra-normal powers and then insight, that is his path of practice. Those are not the same path with just ‘different ways and different aspects’. They are clearly two separate paths. If you have a road which goes in the north/south direction and passes by a nice farm, and another road which goes on the east/west direction and passes by the same nice farm, both are not the same road just because they share the same nice farm. They have something in common but they are not the same road. And they may at the end reach the same destination but through different routes. In some instances we see references to only one or all of the four material jhanas (which is the case with the Satippathana) while in others, in addition to the former, the immaterial jhanas are also included. The three true knowledge are not even mentioned in the Satippathana Suttas while in quite a number of other suttas they appear prominently. Not to talk about the never ending disputes between the ‘wet’ and ‘dry’ practitioners. This is just to refer to a few options, and although I could expand the examples, those instances mentioned should suffice, at least for now. Although one likes to refer to the Buddhist practice as consisting of only one path, there are indeed a myriad of optional paths which can be found in the suttas, and it would not be befitting to a supreme physician to be prescribing all the same medicine to all his patients irrespective of their ailments. Metta Michael 27112 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, Sarah: It is the Kaccayanagotta Sutta - SN XII.15. I quote: .... In the following post I quoted a few passages from B.Bodhi's very extensive commentary note translations to this sutta and added a few notes which you're welcome to follow up on or disagree with: Michael: Thanks for your post. My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view but have no real nature. Metta Michael 27113 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:22am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > Let's look at the elephant's trunk again. I'm glad to see your > contributions: Hi Sarah, Okay, first, it has to be understood that we are discussing `The Path of Purification' taught by Buddhaghosa, not the Noble Eightfold Path taught by Lord Buddha. I believe that they are different in very essential ways. Suttas and ideas concerning one cannot be applied directly to the other. You ask, "Can you show me exactly where in the extract posted that Buddhaghosa suggests there are `several paths' or `many minor paths (magga) [which] become the one path." Does Buddhaghosa write that there are many `paths of purification'? Even though he doesn't state it exactly that way, in essence he does. He writes: "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone," The operative word here is `alone'. If the path of purification, the path to nibbana, is taught by insight alone than insight is the path. This doesn't compare to the Satipatthana Sutta because there all factors of the Noble Eightfold Path are stressed; one couldn't become enlightened by `Right Speech' alone, for example. Buddhaghosa continues to write, in the same vein, "And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is said:" The operative word here is `according', which means that the same `alone' idea is continued. Buddhaghosa then goes through a list, pulling from sources all throughout the Pali Canon that each support the `alone' concept for each value, until we get this list: 1. Insight (panna) 2. Contemplation and insight (jhana and panna) 3. Action (kamma) 4. Morality or virtue (sua) 5. Mindfulness (sati) 6. Right effort (samma vayama) However, Buddhaghosa doesn't leave each of these things separated, he combines them into a three-fold path, not using the Sutta quote you use Sarah, but by analyzing another quote: "`When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'. 8. Herein there is nothing for him to do about the [native] understanding on account of which he is called wise; for that has been established in him simply by the influence of previous kamma. But the words ardent and sagacious mean that by persevering with energy of the kind here described and by acting in full awareness with understanding he should, acting in full awareness with understanding he should, having become well established in virtue, develop the serenity and insight that are described as Concentration and Understanding. This is how the Blessed One shows the path of purification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there." When Buddhaghosa refers to `The Path' later in the Visudhimmaga, he is referring to this three-fold path, not the original minor paths (magga) that he listed. That is why I `rejected' your quotes, because they come later in the Vis. Now, to understand why I say that Buddhaghosa has invented these three categories is going to be difficult because it is very subtle. The categories of morality, concentration and insight by Buddhaghosa are not the same three aggregates that you refer to in this sutta from MN. This sutta details that the Noble Eightfold path can be explained in three aggregates, namely morality, concentration, and insight, but that the three and the one are not the same thing. As the sutta states, "The three aggregates are not included by the Noble eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is included by the three aggregates." The footnote explains, "The word khandha here has a different meaning than in the more common context of the five aggregates affected by clinging. It here refers to a body of training principles, the three divisions of the Noble Eightfold Path into virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and wisdom (panna)." This is NOT how Buddhaghosa uses these terms. He presents these terms in the same light that he presents the introductory values, as sovereign, independent concepts. To Buddhagohsa, Virtue (Sila) isn't a category for a set of training principals, it is a single entity. The same follows for Concentration and Wisdom. Then he defines these three values in terms of four conditions…but that is beyond the scope of this post. I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be congratulated! ;-) Metta, James 27114 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:42am Subject: Re: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > There are about another dozen or so such books, written up to the 13th > century, mentioned with quotations and references to the Sinhalese > commentaries. I'll them all if you like when I have time. Hi Sarah, Yes, I want you to list every single one of them! ;-) (just kidding). No, I think this is enough. I have no reason to doubt this scholarship, it seems pretty sound. However, this is somewhat contradictory to what hs been discussed earlier, that the original commentaries had fallen into disuse. If authors were using them up into the thirteenth century, then they were pretty important. Why did they suddenly disappear? As I have stated before, I don't believe that Buddhaghosa threw them away or something, but I do think that they met with foul play of some sort. Ohhh…a mystery! ;-) Metta, James 27115 From: nordwest Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Michael / transference of merit. Dear friends, in other words: You have the Pure Mind already, but it is in an unwholsome condition, it is defiled with bad habits and negative imprints of karmic deeds form billions of former lifetimes. This is what we have to change by stopping the mind from thinking at all. THe ultimate goal is the non-thinking mind. So we practice mindfullness on ONE THING , andone thing only.. this can be any object: a mantra, a buddha, a stone, a bottle of coca cola. Seriously, you can prove this: Take a bottle of a houshold article and concentrate mindfull on it, see its shape, the color, the refelction of the light on it.. study it like your life would depend on knowing this object. You will reach mindfulness in a few minutes. The mind is wandering, this must stop. Gassho, Thomas Michael Beisert wrote: Hello Sarah, Sarah: It’s not how I understand samma-sati or right mindfulness which has to be a wholesome state accompanying a moment of ‘pure mind’ consciousness;-) Michael: This needs some additional clarification. First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of mindfulness being present. Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the burden laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind is the mind of an arahant. I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which has moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite different from pure/impure. 27116 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/18/03 2:29:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > op 17-11-2003 22:39 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > >How are we to be mindful of the water element? > N: We cannot try to be mindful of it. Whatever appears through one of the > six doors is the object of sati. We cannot select anything. > =========================== So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence of mindfulness? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27117 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/18/03 2:30:58 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & > Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It > attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The > dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view > but have no real nature. > > Metta > Michael > =========================== I think this depends on what one means by "real" and "ultimate". I prefer "actual" to "real", myself. Conditions such as hardness are actually experienced, which makes them "actual", whereas a particular table, for example, is not something directly experienced, but is merely the imagined referent of a mental construct (a percept). Also, a condition such as hardness is ultimate in the sense that it is not a mental construct built from other experiences. None of this, however, makes a condition such as hardness or an odor or a sight or a sound a self-existent thing. Each of these is but a flashing of actuality which arises momentarily in complete dependence on the coming together of other equally empty phenomena. All actual/ultimate phenomena (paramattha dhammas), while distinguishable, are interdependent and inseparable, and, while not nothing at all, ARE nothing IN AND OF THEMSELVES. This is how I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27118 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, James - In a message dated 11/18/03 4:33:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than > Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be > congratulated! ;-) > > ======================= Why, thank you!! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27119 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry: "Is that why they call it dukkha?" Jon: "Sorry, you've lost me. Is what why they call what dukkha?" Hi Jon, Bit of a joke. If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, even when "right". No wonder this is dukkha. Larry ps: thanks for the tip for escribe. L 27120 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." Hi Nina, I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then only one at a time. Correct? Larry 27121 From: Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' Nina: "He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another one. Does this make sense to you?" Hi Nina, No, I doesn't make sense. It says right there, "thinking thus". "Thinking thus" is thinking. We could say there are different kinds of thinking. Reflecting is thinking. We are obviously using concepts in this exercise. How else can we be mindful of the water element? The idea is to change one's view of the body from being a "nest" to being these 4 disembodied elements. Here we definitely want to separate the elements, as a butcher separates the parts of a cow. We are cultivating non-attachment, not an accurate view of reality. I agree that it's not for everyone. Larry 27122 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi James I don't think they will ban you just bc you don't conform or agreeable or critical (cross you fingers :) ). This what make DSG so interesting, so many kinds of different thoughts on Buddhism. So many differnt ways of interpreting Buddhism. In the end, it is the learning spirit, the investigating spirit and not blind faith that make Buddhism so enticing. Cheers Ken O --- buddhatrue wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Hi KKT, > > > James, one year already!;-) > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > ====== > > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been > completely banned (at least not yet ;-). > > Metta, James > > 27123 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Michael / transference of merit. Hi Thomas What is a non-thinking mind - could you kindly elaborate? I thought mindfullness is practise in our every waking momments, why do we need a bottle to practise that? To use a bottle to practise is more like for investigating impermanence and anatta and not mindfullness. kind rgds Ken O --- nordwest wrote: > Dear friends, in other words: You have the Pure Mind already, but > it is in an unwholsome condition, it is defiled with bad habits and > negative imprints of karmic deeds form billions of former > lifetimes. This is what we have to change by stopping the mind from > thinking at all. THe ultimate goal is the non-thinking mind. So we > practice mindfullness on ONE THING , andone thing only.. this can > be any object: a mantra, a buddha, a stone, a bottle of coca cola. > Seriously, you can prove this: Take a bottle of a houshold article > and concentrate mindfull on it, see its shape, the color, the > refelction of the light on it.. study it like your life would > depend on knowing this object. You will reach mindfulness in a few > minutes. > > The mind is wandering, this must stop. > > Gassho, > Thomas > 27124 From: mlnease Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Sarah and Connie, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike to do a quick sketch;-) I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! Best wishes all around. mike 27125 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > > My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & > Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It > attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The > dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view > but have no real nature. > Dear Michael, Could you tell us more about your view. How does it relate to this sutta: Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote RobertK 27126 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis in different editions Hi Michael the trouble is the numbering which varies in different editions. I have the Nanamoli one. Nina. op 17-11-2003 19:54 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. 27127 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa Hi James, op 18-11-2003 17:41 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Hi Sarah, > > Yea, it's amazing that I have lasted that long and haven't been > completely banned (at least not yet ;-). Nina: It is all right James, it is all right James, pat, pat, pat. But in earnest, you make challenging comments and then a lot of good comes out of it for me. That is my experience. It is a condition for many people to look at issues from all angles. Nina. 27128 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 object of sati Dear Shakti, citta can take realities and concepts as object. But the object of direct awareness, thus sammasati, is a nama or rupa that appears now, not a concept. Nina. op 18-11-2003 18:47 schreef shakti op deannajohnsonusa@y...: > Jon, I'm confused about something that you said. I thought that I heard > once, that citta could never take concepts as an object. ??? 27129 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Larry --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive > one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even > arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. On the contrary, it is he who sees more than 1 thing at a time that is unable to see things as they truly are. Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part. The difficulty lies in seeing that in reality there is only 1 moment of consciousness and 1 object of that consciousness at any given time, and that all dhammas are conditioned, arising and falling away. Not exactly easy to comprehend other than at a purely intellectual level, is it ;-)) > Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, > even when "right". > No wonder this is dukkha. Concepts are just concepts. They are not inherently anything. They are the way we think about actual phenomena. Contrary to the impression some may have, concepts are not part of the problem -- ignorance and wrong view are the problem. Jon 27130 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:23pm Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > I don't think they will ban you just bc you don't conform or > agreeable or critical (cross you fingers :) ). .... I assure you that all the parameters have been well and truly tested in this case and there have been times when ‘they’ have been at their wits’ end ;-) .... >This what make DSG so > interesting, so many kinds of different thoughts on Buddhism. So > many differnt ways of interpreting Buddhism. In the end, it is the > learning spirit, the investigating spirit and not blind faith that > make Buddhism so enticing. .... :) Metta, Sarah p.s I agree with your comment to Victor about attachment - clinging to anything, even to calm or wisdom or other wholesome states. Hence, tanha (craving) is the cause of suffering. (Only exceptions: nibbana and lokuttara cittas cannot be objects of attachment) ====== 27131 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Mike's Half-promises Hi Mike (& Connie), S:> That sounds like a half-promise, Connie;-) Perhaps we could ask Mike > to do a quick sketch;-) > M:> I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! > > Best wishes all around. .... Connie, on second thoughts, let's not ask Mike to do a sketch of you.....reflections on decaying bodies aside, I think a photo would be quicker and simpler;-) Mike, good to see your name here;-);-) Larry was just asking after you (you'll soon catch up with his message). I thought of letting him know that you might have one or two (pleasant) distractions these days, but will let you fill him in if you wish. Have you come across all the posts on accumulations yet?? Also, if you'd like copies of the tapes from our last trip, let me know so I can give you (and anyone else), K. Supatsorn's new email address. Metta, Sarah p.s The occasional one-liner here, even a 'Me-too' would be good these days;-) ======= 27132 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Myanmar4 - decisive support, accumulations, desirable object, kamma Hi Connie, I thought your summary of the three kinds of decisive support condition was very clear and helpful. Any comments I add below are more like comments to myself with which you're welcome to take issue;-) If you feel at all inclined to give summaries of the other 23 now, that would be very helpful to many of us, I’m sure. Icaro, especially, will be glad to see your name and humour anytime when he returns;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 1. When we refer to conventional language descriptions of conditions in the suttas, such as ‘living in the village’ or ‘association with wise companions’ etc, I understand these to be representations of various realities which act as pakatupanissaya paccaya and other conditions. 2. I don’t think we can say ‘kamma can be pakatupanissaya-paccaya for vipaka’ as these are two different conditions. We can say that there have to be other dhammas acting as pakatupanissaya paccaya to support kamma paccaya bring about vipaka I think. I discussed just this point with RobM. 3. When we say namas, rupas, nibbana and concepts can be (rather than ‘are’) natural decisive support condition, we need to clarify what is meant by concepts here. Actually, I understand that terms like ‘climate’ listed in the Patthana, refer to realities represented by these shorthand concepts. What you wrote was correct, but it depends how it is understood. ====== 27133 From: mwr45678 Date: Tue Nov 18, 2003 9:43pm Subject: Natural Breathing OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does anyone know how to do this? 27134 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM & Ken H, I’ve been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your interesting thread. Lost on his surfboard?? Meanwhile, having just read an article about ‘surf rage’ Down Under, may I join in? [Actually, I'm just taking a break from the Buddhaghosa and DK threads 'til I feel brave;-)] ..... --- robmoult wrote: >The way I see it, everything arises because of > supporting conditions. For some people, because of their > accumulations, sitting in the lotus position is a supporting > condition for Satipatthana. For some people, because of their > accumulations, waiting at a red light is a supporting condition for > Satipatthana. For some people, because of their accumulations, being > in the middle of road rage is a supporting condition for > Satipatthana. .... Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) As we know, any moment of Satipatthana is only ever 'this one' and anything may have been a supporting condition as you indicate. However, there is a difference between understanding this (at least theoretically) when satipatthana arises and having any idea or expectation that it will arise again by tying to repeat those same conditions. For example, let's say that the anger experienced during road or surf rage happens to be the object of satipatthana (or to act as decisive support). Any idea of repeating the rage for this result would clearly be wrong view with wrong expectations and also a false idea that somehow conditions can be controlled by a ‘self’, however subtle. Hence we come back to understanding with detachment and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of action. ..... > I see papanca (mental proliferation) as the enemy of mindfulness. > Situations which condition a lot of papanca are unlikely to support > the arising of mindfulness. I tend to "lose it" during moments of > madness such as road rage and papanca takes over. I tend to "be with > it" during moments of sitting (though I admit that I am an > infrequent meditator). .... All we can say is that the realities are conditioned as they are at such times. Even whilst ‘losing it’, there can be moments of satipatthana and vice versa. It depends on the understanding rather than the obvious papanca, I think. After all, even amongst all that papanca, there can be moments of satipatthana. Otherwise we’re limiting its scope again or having expectations about mindfulness arising at another time. More clinging to the self. ..... > > I know what you are going to say... you are going to say that you > detect a sense of self wanting to control the situation, when in > fact trying to control the situation is like trying to control > gravity. .... ;-) .... > Dana, sila and bhavana will arise when conditions are conducive. How > can they be "put off"? Does it make sense to talk of "putting off > gravity"? Your question has a whiff of "self in control" about it! > Touche! :-) :-) :-) ..... ;-) You know all the right answers. So whether there are conditions to be road-raging or sitting in a lotus or making an offering now, OK. No other time for satipatthana;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Maybe now you can both help with the DK/Buddhaghosa threads;-) ====== 27135 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:55am Subject: Re: Natural Breathing --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "mwr45678" wrote: > OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am > told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be > natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe > consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer > breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had > this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does > anyone know how to do this? Hi Friend, I think that you are putting too much emphasis on the idea of `natural' breathing; as if `natural' breathing has to mean that it is automatic and unconscious. The breath is still natural even if you are conscious of it and in control. Allow me to quote part of an essay to explain: "Of course, there were times when clinging and obsessiveness forced the breath this way and that, including forcedly deep. That, however, wasn't what the Buddha meant and I found ways to avoid that particular habit. So what breathing was "natural"? Were all the shallow, tight, tired, hot, erratic, stressed breaths "natural"? In the sense that everything is ultimately Dhamma, sure, they are natural. In the sense of healthy, useful, skilful — no way! Shifting from busy-minded breathing to gentle-walking breathing has taught me that they aren't the kind of "natural" I need (like being bit by a rattlesnake isn't the kind of natural I need). In fact, they were examples of the short breathing mentioned by the Buddha. Off and on over the years, I'd stumbled upon genuine long breathing — deep, full, slow, relaxed, joyful. It usually happened when mind would drop some obsession or irritation to simply settle in and ride with the breathing. Yoga, massage, and soaks in the hot springs helped, too. Ajarn Buddhadasa didn't mind "controlling" the breathing if it brought healthy results, so I also found creative ways to foster — not force — long breathing and through it internally massage tightness and tension in chest, solar plexus, back, and abdomen. The easing and lightening could then spread throughout the body. Increasingly, these developed without conscious effort. However they might arrive, the results were delightful. Body more relaxed and light, whether walking or sitting. Mind much more settled and clear. Pleasant feelings. Happiness. Maybe that's why the Buddha talked about these things specifically and not just the watered down "watch your breathing." He even taught us to experience satisfaction and joy as we breathe in and out." --Santikaro Bhikkhu, Technology of Breathing in and Out Hope this helps. Best wishes for your practice. Metta, James 27136 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:15am Subject: Magical illusions Hi Azita, Michael, RobertK, Larry, Thomas & All, Robert’s recent helpful post on sabhava and quoting the section from the Phena sutta commentary about feelings as bubbles - transient and conditioned and ungraspable - reminded me that Larry also quoted from the same commentary notes recently (post no 26548). Azita, you were asking in Myanmar about the reason why the 5 khandhas are as they are and I think the sutta and these commentary notes help us appreciate how much grasping there is of form which is like ‘foam without substance’, ungraspable bubbles of feelings and how deceived we are by the mirage of perception for a start: Spk: Perception is like a mirage (mariicikaa) in the sense that it is > insubstantial, for one cannot grasp a mirage to drink or bathe or > fill a pitcher. As a mirage deceives the multitude, so does > perception, which entices people with the idea that the colourful > object is beautiful, pleasurable, and permanent. ..... Michael, when we read about consciousness in the commentary, we read: > Spk: Consciousness is like a magical illusion (maayaa) in the sense > that it is insubstantial and cannot be grasped. Consciousness is even > more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion. For it gives the > impression that a person comes and goes, stands and sits, with the > same mind, but the mind is different in each of these activities. > Consciousness deceives the multitude like a magical illusion. ..... No lasting mind of any kind or ‘essence’ other than the transient characteristics or nature when it (citta) arises fleetingly. Larry, I’m not sure that anyone responded to your following comments after posting these passages: > --- Larry wrote: > Larry: Perhaps we could say consciousness gives the impression that a > person comes and goes with the same mind because of the unchanging > nature of consciousness itself, while what changes is the object of > consciousness and the mental body (feeling, perception, volitional > formations). .... The wrong impression is a result of moha (ignorance) and lack of panna (wisdom). As the descriptions make clear, all the khandhas arise and fall away ‘more transient and fleeting than a magical illusion’. .... > It is interesting that of the three "modes of knowing"(perception, > consciousness, understanding) understanding falls in the volitional > formations category which is illustrated by the plantain trunk which > is an assemblage of many phenomena. .... the 50 cetasikas apart from sanna and vedana. .... >Understanding understands > precisely this, that experience is an assemblage of many phenomena, > each with its own characteristic. .... One characteristic or reality to be known at a time as you’re discussing with Nina and Jon. Metta, Sarah ====== 27137 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: Traffic Lights Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) Natural decisive support condition from hanging around DSG :-) I've been silent for a few days because I lost my handphone (a nuisance) and my hard disk crashed (major nuisance). I have been busy getting re-connected with the world and trying to recover whatever data I could. You may have noticed that I added a few more zipped files into the "Files" section of DSG; I am now up to message 9000. Unfortunately, I lost the rest of the raw data when my disk crashed. Sarah / Jon, I remember passing to you a bunch of files a year or so ago in HK. I think that this included raw data past message 9000. If that is so, please email me the raw data files past message 9000 so that I can continue producing Word documents. Unfortunately, the bottom line is that I am not going to be able to meet my target of having all the messages ready by Christmas. I have been observing my mental states as these nuisances have arisen. Interesting - very little dosa... even a bit of lobha (new handphone, new features :-) ). I will be tied up in India next week and China the following week. I just found out today that I need to go to Sri Lanka for a few days the following week. I am really excited. On my last trip to Columbo, I brought an extra suitcase just for Dhamma books and I was able to fill it up for less than US$100 (Dhamma books are really cheap there). After that, I am off to Canada for three weeks. Hopefully, this travel itinery explains my relatively low profile for the rest of 2003. Metta, Rob M :-) 27138 From: robmoult Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:01am Subject: Natural Decisive Support Condition Last Sunday, I gave a talk on Natural Decisive Support Condition. When it was over, somebody commented, "Natural Decisive Support Condition... it sounds like a health care product!" :-) :-) :-) 27139 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > wrote: > > Your arguments are becoming more and more refined, Rob;-) > > Natural decisive support condition from hanging around DSG :-) .... ;-) ....> > I've been silent for a few days because I lost my handphone (a > nuisance) and my hard disk crashed (major nuisance). I have been > busy getting re-connected with the world and trying to recover > whatever data I could. You may have noticed that I added a few more > zipped files into the "Files" section of DSG; I am now up to message > 9000. Unfortunately, I lost the rest of the raw data when my disk > crashed. Sarah / Jon, I remember passing to you a bunch of files a > year or so ago in HK. I think that this included raw data past > message 9000. If that is so, please email me the raw data files past > message 9000 so that I can continue producing Word documents. > Unfortunately, the bottom line is that I am not going to be able to > meet my target of having all the messages ready by Christmas. .... Very sorry to hear about this. I just checked and I think the file you passed us goes up to 17,000. Jon says he'll liaise with you off-list to see how we can help. Funny, I thought about asking for a disc of the most recent up-date, but not enough decisive conditions;-) Maybe next time. ..... > > I have been observing my mental states as these nuisances have > arisen. Interesting - very little dosa... even a bit of lobha (new > handphone, new features :-) ). ..... Which just goes to show.... we never know;-)Glad to hear there's not too much dosa. It's the kind of example where there's not necesarily anthing obvious that's inherently undesirable (i.e any obvious akusala vipaka) through eyes, ears, body and so on and yet the thinking can condition so much difficulty and stress. ..... > I will be tied up in India next week and China the following week. I > just found out today that I need to go to Sri Lanka for a few days > the following week. I am really excited. On my last trip to Columbo, > I brought an extra suitcase just for Dhamma books and I was able to > fill it up for less than US$100 (Dhamma books are really cheap > there). After that, I am off to Canada for three weeks. > > Hopefully, this travel itinery explains my relatively low profile > for the rest of 2003. .... Thanks for letting us know, RobM and hope you have safe travels with no more mishaps. Ranil and Sumane, if you're reading this, you might like to contact Rob when he's in Colombo. You'd all have good abhidhamma discussions I know;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27140 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:56am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 28, 29, 30, 31 [Regarding the two planes (trainer and non-trainer) of the four kinds of discrimination] 28. And though they come into the categories of the two planes thus, they are nevertheless distinguishable in five aspects, that is to say, as achievement, mastery of scriptures, hearing, questioning, and prior effort. Herein, "achievement" is the reaching of Arahantship. "Mastery of scriptures" is mastery of the Buddha's word. "Hearing" is learning the Dhamma carefully and attentively. "Questioning" is discussion of knotty passages and explanatory passages in the texts, commentaries, and so on. "Prior effort" is devotion to insight in the dispensation of former Buddhas, up to the vicinity of [the stages of] conformity and change-of-lineage by one who has practiced [the duty of] going [with the meditation subject on alms round] and coming back [with it]. (11) 28. eva.m dviisu bhuumiisu pabheda.m gacchantiyopi cetaa adhigamena pariyattiyaa savanena paripucchaaya pubbayogena caati imehi pa~ncahaakaarehi visadaa honti. tattha adhigamo naama arahattappatti. pariyatti naama buddhavacanassa pariyaapu.nana.m. savana.m naama sakkacca.m atthi.m katvaa dhammassavana.m. paripucchaa naama paa.lia.t.thakathaadiisu ga.n.thipadaatthapadavinicchayakathaa, pubbayogo naama pubbabuddhaana.m saasane gatapaccaagatikabhaavena yaava anuloma.m gotrabhusamiipa.m, taava vipassanaanuyogo. +++++++++++++++++++++++++ 29. Others have said: 'A prior effort, and great knowledge, [Knowledge of] dialects, of scriptures, And questioning, and then achievement, And likewise waiting on a teacher, Success in friends--these are conditions Productive of discriminations'. 29. apare aahu -- ``pubbayogo baahusacca.m, desabhaasaa ca aagamo. paripucchaa adhigamo, garusannissayo tathaa. mittasampatti cevaati, pa.tisambhidapaccayaa''ti.. 30. Herein, "prior effort" is the same as already stated. "Great learning" is skill in some science or sphere of craft. "Dialects" means skill in the hundred-and-one tongues, particularly in that of Magadha. "Scriptures" means mastery of the Buddha's word, even if only of the Chapter of Similes. (12) "Questioning" is questioning about defining the meaning of even a single stanza. "Achievement" is stream-entry ... or Arahantship. "Waiting on a teacher" is living with very learned intelligent teachers. "Success in friends" is acquisition of friends such as that. [443] 30. tattha pubbayogo vuttanayova. baahusacca.m naama tesu tesu satthesu ca sippaayatanesu ca kusalataa. desabhaasaa naama ekasatavohaarakusalataa. visesena pana maagadhike kosalla.m. aagamo naama antamaso opammavaggamattassapi buddhavacanassa pariyaapu.nana.m. paripucchaa naama ekagaathaayapi atthavinicchayapucchana.m. adhigamo naama sotaapannataa vaa...pe0... arahatta.m vaa. garusannissayo naama sutapa.tibhaanabahulaana.m garuuna.m santike vaaso. mittasampatti naama tathaaruupaana.myeva mittaana.m pa.tilaabhoti. +++++++++++++++++++++++ 31. Herein, Buddhas and Paccekabuddhas reach discriminations through prior effort and through achievement. Disciples do so through all these means. And there is no special way of developing a meditation subject in order to attain discriminations. But in trainers the attaining of the discriminations comes about next upon the liberation consisting in trainers' fruition, and in non-trainers it does so next upon the liberation consisting in non-trainers' fruition. For the discriminations come to success in noble ones only through the noble fruition as the ten powers do in Perfect Ones. So these were the discriminations referred to when it was said above 'It is of four kinds ... as the four discriminations' (par. 8). 31. tattha buddhaa ca paccekabuddhaa ca pubbayoga~nceva adhigama~nca nissaaya pa.tisambhidaa paapu.nanti. saavakaa sabbaanipi etaani kaara.naani. pa.tisambhidaappattiyaa ca paa.tiyekko kamma.t.thaanabhaavanaanuyogo naama natthi. sekkhaana.m pana sekkhaphalavimokkhantikaa. asekkhaana.m asekkhaphalavimokkhantikaava pa.tisambhidaappatti hoti. tathaagataana.m hi dasabalaani viya ariyaana.m ariyaphaleneva pa.tisambhidaa ijjhantiiti imaa pa.tisambhidaa sandhaaya vutta.m catupa.tisambhidaavasena catubbidhaati. ++++++++++++++++++++ (11) The expression "gatapaccaagatikabhaava" refers to the practice of 'carrying the meditation subject to and from the alms round', which is described at MA.i,257 in detail. The same expression is also used of a certain kind of refuse-rag (see Ch. II, par.17). (12) 'The "Chapter of Similes" is the Chapter of Twin Verses in the Dhammapada (Dh.1-20), they say. Others say it is the Book of Pairs in the First Fifty (M. Suttas 31-40)' (Pm. 436). 27141 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/18/03 11:24:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." > > Hi Nina, > > I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? > Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't > experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then > only one at a time. Correct? > > Larry > =========================== If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence a objects. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27142 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/19/03 3:45:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Larry > > --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > >If many dhammas arise at once and we can only perceive > >one at a time, we are incapable of seeing things as they are. Even > >arahants are incapable of seeing more than one thing at a time. > > On the contrary, it is he who sees more than 1 thing at a time that > is unable to see things as they truly are. > > Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not > form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so > not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part. > > The difficulty lies in seeing that in reality there is only 1 moment > of consciousness and 1 object of that consciousness at any given > time, and that all dhammas are conditioned, arising and falling away. > > Not exactly easy to comprehend other than at a purely intellectual > level, is it ;-)) > > > >Our only recourse is to concepts which are inherently flawed, > >even when "right". > >No wonder this is dukkha. > > Concepts are just concepts. They are not inherently anything. They > are the way we think about actual phenomena. Contrary to the > impression some may have, concepts are not part of the problem -- > ignorance and wrong view are the problem. > > Jon > > =============================== How is what is unobserved and unobservable anything other than concept-only, merely inferable? How is it that, on the one hand a group of rupas is what actually arises, yet on the other hand "Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part."? It seems to me that when you add the phrase 'for that person', then "things as they are" turns into things as they are limitedly perceived, but not in their fullness. Mind you, I am not questioning here the assertion that at any time there is only one act of consciousness discerning but one object via one sense door. Actually, I would be surprised if that were not the case. My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in some sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, this is discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only by inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the world", perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27143 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Breathing Hi, mwr4songs (a name you choose to use here might be helpful ;-), In a message dated 11/19/03 4:10:30 AM Eastern Standard Time, mwr4songs@g... writes: > OK. New to meditation, blah, blah, blah. Studying Vipassana. I am > told to focus on my breathing but that the breathing should be > natural. Problem is, when I focus on the breath, I have to breathe > consciously. In other words, when I meditate, I am no longer > breathing autonomically. What gives? Does/has anyone else have/had > this problem? Have I dreadfully misunderstood this whole thing? Does > anyone know how to do this? > > =========================== What you are experiencing is not at all uncommon. With continued practice, and as the mind calms down, you will find that the attention one gives to the breath less and less affects it, and, after a while, there will be no discernable influence at all. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27144 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 7:57am Subject: Re: Buddhist questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > Thank you for answering my questions! well, > I have a a few new ones. > 1.How is the mind of the Buddha like? ( I mean > like how he taught the Buddhist) > 2.Did the Buddha tell his people not to > communicate with bad spirits? > 3.What language does the Buddha communicate in? > That's all > Metta, > Janice Hi Star Kid Janice! You're very welcome for the answers. Okay, let me jump into these questions: 1.How is the mind of the Buddha like? ( I mean like how he taught the Buddhist) Answer: This is a very good question! Unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. The mind of a Buddha cannot be known by the mind of a regular person. Our minds are too `dirty' with anger, greed, and delusion (false belief) to really know what a Buddha's mind is like. The only way to know a Buddha's mind is to become enlightened oneself. 2.Did the Buddha tell his people not to communicate with bad spirits? Answer: No, he didn't really say not to communicate with them; he just said to know them for what they are. Different monks and nuns had conversations with a bad spirit named Mara, but it was only to make him go away. Let him know that he had no power or influence over them. 3.What language does the Buddha communicate in? Answer: Buddhism can be communicated in all languages, but it is widely believed that the actual language of the Lord Buddha was Pali. Hope this answers your questions. Thanks for writing. Study hard in school. Metta, James 27145 From: connie Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:15am Subject: Re: Vis in different editions Hi Michael and Nina, Hi Michael the trouble is the numbering which varies in different editions. I have the Nanamoli one. Nina. op 17-11-2003 19:54 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > I didn't quote the passage not to overload the message even more. The > passage DK mentions is Vism 328. The copy I have gives the Harvard edition numbers in [brackets], so for what it's worth, that [328] minus {footnotes} is below. peace, connie Vsm X,9: He adverts again and again to the sign of the space left by the removal of the kasina [328] as 'Space, space', and he strikes at it with thought and applied thought. As he adverts to it again and again and strikes at it with thought and applied thought the hindrances are suppressed, mindfulness is established and his mind becomes concentrated in acccess. He cultivates that sign again and again, develops and repeatedly practices it. 10: As he again and again adverts to it and gives attention to it in this way consciousness belonging to the Base Consisting of Boundless Space arises in absorption with the space [as its object], as the consciousness belonging to the fine-material sphere did in the case of the earth kasina, and so on. And here too in the prior stage there are either three or four sensual-sphere impulsions associated with equanimous feeling, while the fourth or the fifth is of the immaterial sphere. The rest is the same as in the case of the earth kasina (Ch.IV,74). 11. There is however, this difference. When the immaterial-sphere concsiousness has arisen in this way, the bhikkhu, who has been formerly looking at the kasina disk with the jhana eye, finds himself looking at only space after that sign has been abruptly removed by the attention given in the preliminary work thus 'Space, space'. He is like a man who has plugged an opening in a [covered] vehicle, a sack or a pot {2} with a piece of blue rag or with a piece of rag of some such colour as yellow, red or white and is looking at that, and then when the rag is removed by force of the wind or by some other agency, he finds himself looking at space. [Text and Commentary] 12. And at this point it is said: With the complete surmounting (samatikkamaa) of perceptions of matter, with the disappearance of perceptions of resistance, with non-attention to perceptions of variety, [aware of] "Unbounded space", he enters upon and dwells in the base consisting of boundless space' (Vbh.245). 13. Herein, complete is in all aspects or of all [perceptions]; without exception, is the meaning. Of perceptions of matter: both (a) of the fine-material jhanas mentioned [here] under the heading of 'perception' and (b) of those things that are their object. For (a) the jhana of the fine-material sphere is called 'matter' in such passages as 'Possessed of visible matter he sees instances of matter' (D.ii,70; M.ii,12), and (b) it is its object too [that is called 'matter'] in such passages as 'He sees instances of visible matter externally, ... fair and ugly' (D.ii,110; M.ii,13). {3} Consequently here the words 'perceptions of matter (ruupa-sa~n~naa - lit. matter-perceptions)', in the sense of 'perceptions about matter', are used (a) for fine-material jhana stated thus under the heading of 'perceptions'. [Also] (b) it has the label (sa~n~naa) 'matter (ruupa)' thus it (the jhana's object) is 'labelled matter (ruupa-sa~n~na.m)'; what is meant is that 'matter' is its name. So it should be understood that this is also a term for (b) what is classed as the earth kasina, etc., which is the object of that [jhana]. {4} [329] 27146 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati, II a, training. op 18-11-2003 18:22 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Breathing in long, he knows ³I breathe in long²; or breathing out long, he > knows ³I breathe out long.² > He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body²; he trains > thus ³I shall breathe out > experiencing the whole body². > Nina, I am very interested in this first tetrad of the sutta because it > connects with my meditation practice. Is it possible to expand a little bit > on the meaning of knows’ and trains’. I think those are clear pointers for > someone who is involved in the practice of meditation. N: Vis. VIII, 165 etc: "But their length and shortness should be understood by extent (addhaana)...so in the case of elephants' and snakes' bodies the in-breaths and out-breaths regarded as particles slowly fill the long extent, in other words, their persons, and slowly go out again. That is why they are called long...> the opposite is said of short. A note of the Tiika to particles: As to group, kalapa, rupas arise in groups which are rapidly arising and falling away. So is the rupa we call breath. In conventional sense we say that the breath is long or short. Another long footnote to Vis. VIII, 168. Thus, development: making much of, increase. Not only concentration, but realizing the three charactristics is the goal. Mindfulness of the realities appearing while breathing in order to know their true characteristics. I am glad you brought this up, and as you will see, I also inserted parts of discussion between Jon and Rob Ep about this subject. As you see, Nanamoli translates as essence what is sabhava, as we just discussed: the individual characteristic of a reality. Vis. VII, 173:Herein, he trains: he strives, he endeavours in this way. Or else the restraint here in one such as this is training (sikkha) in the higher virtue, his consciousness is training in the higher consciousness, and his understanding is training in the higher understanding (Patisambidhamagga I, 184). So he trains in, repeats, develops, repeatedly practises, these three kinds of training, on that object, by means of that mindfulness, by means of that attention...> Higher virtue (adhisiila), higher consciousness (adhicitta), and higher understanding (adhipa~n~naa) are always connected with vipassana. In the next para it is said in the present tense: he knows I breathe in...But then the future tense is used: <"I shall breathe in experiencing the whole body" should be understood as used in order to show that the aspect of arousing knowledge, etc. , has to be undertaken from then on.> So many aspects I have not considered myself enough. This subject is very useful. Nina. 27147 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Vis.Tiika.36.part.III Tiika 36 part III Relevant text of Vis. 36: ... bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. ...kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. Text Tiika 36, part III: words: copana: agitation adhippaaya(m): intention vi~n~natti: communication. viggaha: analysis, resolution (into parts) dibbati: to enjoy nipphanna: produced Text: Copanakaayabhaavato kaayo ca so adhippaayavi~n~naapanato vi~n~natti caati kaayavi~n~natti. The body, with its nature of bodily agitation, and the intimation which makes known an intention, is thus bodily intimation. Copanavaacaabhaavato, adhippaayavi~n~naapanato ca vacii ca saa vi~n~natti caati vaciivi~n~natti. Speech with its nature of agitation of the voice, and this intimation which makes known an intention, is thus verbal intimation. Viggahaabhaavato na kassati, kasitu.m chinditu.m na sakkaa, na vaa kaasati dibbatiiti akaasa.m, akaasameva aakaasa.m, tadeva nissattanijjiiva.t.thena aakaasadhaatu. It is space, because it cannot be broken up, it cannot be ploughed *; it is not possible to plough it or to break it, or it does not appear, and thus, one does not enjoy what does mot appear; what does not appear is space. Then, because it is without a living soul, it is the element of space. Ruupassaati nipphannaruupassa. Lahubhaavo lahutaa. As to the expression (lightness) of matter, of produced matter. The nature of being light is lightness. Saya.m anipphannataaya ³ruupassaa²ti visesita.m. Esa nayo sesesupi. Because in itself it is unproduced, it is explained as ³of matter.² This method applies for the remaining qualities **. Aya.m pana visesani kammani saadhu kamma~n~na.m, tassa bhaavo kamma~n~nataa. This is being wieldy for different works, its nature is wieldiness. Pa.thama.m, upari ca cayo pavatti upacayo. The first and the later accumulation is the occurrence, integration.*** Pubbaaparavasena sambandhaa tati pavatti santati. Because of what precedes and follows there are connections, it goes on, proceeds as continuation. Aniccassa vinaasino bhaavo aniccataa. Impermanence is the nature of being impermanent, subject to destruction. Kabala.m kariiyatiiti kaba.liikaaro. It is made into morsels and thus it is morsel-made (food). Aaharatiiti aahaaro. It produces and thus it is food. Eva.m taava upaadaayaruupa.m saddatthato veditabba.m. Thus one should understand the derived material phenomena in as far as it concerns their word meaning. ***** English: The body, with its nature of bodily agitation, and the intimation which makes known an intention, is thus bodily intimation. Speech with its nature of agitation of the voice, and this intimation which makes known an intention, is thus verbal intimation. It is space, because it cannot be broken up, it cannot be ploughed *; it is not possible to plough it or to break it, or it does not appear, and thus, one does not enjoy what does mot appear; what does not appear is space. Then, because it is without a living soul, it is the element of space. As to the expression (lightness) of matter, of produced matter. The nature of being light is lightness. Because in itself it is unproduced, it is explained as ³of matter.² This method applies for the remaining qualities **. This is being wieldy for different works, its nature is wieldiness. The first and the later accumulation is the occurrence, integration.*** Because of what precedes and follows there are connections, it goes on, proceeds as continuation. Impermanence is the nature of being impermanent, subject to destruction. It produces and thus it is food. Thus one should understand the derived material phenomena in as far as it concerns their word meaning. _______ * There is a word association of aakaasa, space and kassati, to plough. Another word derivation, according to Ledi Sayadaw: kaasati: to shine, to appear. ** These are different qualities or characteristics of matter, ruupa: lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter are matter as alteration. They are unproduced, not concrete matter. Growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter are characteristics of matter. *** This refers to the origin or arising of rupa. ***** Nina 27148 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Dear Howard, Thank you for reacting to my post, I understand that you have a difficult time just now. My thoughts are with you and your family. op 18-11-2003 23:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No > volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence > of mindfulness? N: We are not so far apart. I read former posts of you where you said that there is volition but not a self who takes decisions. There is ardour and striving but no self who does. We know this in theory, but the idea of self idea creeps in all the time since we have not eradicated it. The old question comes back: can or should we do something to develop vipassana? You can guess my answer: cultivate conditions. Right theoretical understanding of the basics are the condition and, as you agree, all the perfections. This means, that we are not inclined to think so much about cultivating or thinking of objects we should be aware of. That is only thinking and can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not so important, not me who thinks.You or others will ask: who cultivates conditions? Answer: accumulated conditions. Accumulations again! I find for me that so much reasoning does not help. For me it is best not to think of wanting to develop vipassana. Besides panna there are all the other perfections. Nina. 27149 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi Larry, op 19-11-2003 01:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Only one citta experiencing one object through one doorway." L: I agree; that is the way experience unfolds. What about the cetasikas? > Various numbers of cetasikas arise with the one citta but we don't > experience them unless they are an object of consciousness, and then > only one at a time. Correct? N: completely correct. Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the dosa can be experienced, reflected on or be object of mindfulness when it has just fallen away. Or the unpleasant feeling which always accompanies aversion. And this can trigger off more cittas arising later on with aversion and unpleasant feeling about the unpleasant feeling that arose before and has just has fallen away. And so we go on and on. Nina. 27150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Latent tendencies, to Mike Hi Mike, Nice to hear from you. Thanks for your good wishes, Hope to hear more from you ;-)) Now I catch your eye, I remember that latent tendencies was a favorite subject for you. As I announced, I am just trying to translate from Thai, it goes very slowly. Be on the look out, and please feed back! Nina. op 19-11-2003 04:08 schreef mlnease op mlnease@y...: > Hi Sarah and Connie, > I should think you've had enough half-promises from me...! > > Best wishes all around. 27151 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. mindfulness of cohesion op 19-11-2003 01:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "A bhikkhu reflects on just this body according as it is placed or > disposed, by way of the mode of materiality, THINKING thus: 'There are, > in this body, the mode of solidity, the mode of cohesion, the mode of > caloricity, and the mode of oscillation.' > > Nina: "He reflects on the elements and is reminded to be directly aware > of whatever reality appears. Satipatthana is not thinking. In the > Satipatthanasutta the Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many > different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently > arisen reality. What appeals to one person may not appeal to another > one. Does this make sense to you?" Larry:> No, It doesn't make sense. It says right there, "thinking thus". > "Thinking thus" is thinking. We could say there are different kinds of > thinking. Reflecting is thinking. N: In the Co to the Satipatthanasutta, just before the Nine Cemetery contemplations, at the end of Reflection on the modes of materiality, there is a quote from the Tiika: We have in Pali paccavekkhati, then what he reflects ending with the word *ti*, denoting end quote. This is translated as thinking(placed in the beginning of the quote)...thus and thus. Be careful, it is a matter of translation. Often in texts we find just a whole quote ending with *ti*, no mention of he thinks. But the translator puts in: he thinks... because it looks strange to have just a quote. It has not to do with just thinking about something, but, note here: with the eye of wisdom. What should be stressed is insight. Remember we discussed before (in the context of Soma) a similar word: anupassati. The object of insight is nama or rupa. Not an idea or concept. L:We are obviously using concepts in > this exercise. How else can we be mindful of the water element? N: How the body is placed or disposed. Tiika note: . The four elements are a condition for the other kinds of rupa in the body. The second stage of insight is realizing that dhammas are conditioned, not by thinking about the conditions, but by direct realization. So long as we have not reached this stage we may believe that this can only be known by thinking. It is directly realized with the eye of wisdom! Thus, the yogavacara is mindful of whatever reality appears, and who can tell of what reality, it may even be cohesion. It is not impossible, it has a characteristic. And also: cohesion is with the other three Great Elements a condition for the other rupas such as visible object, or odour. L:The idea > is to change one's view of the body from being a "nest" to being these 4 > disembodied elements. Here we definitely want to separate the elements, > as a butcher separates the parts of a cow. We are cultivating > non-attachment N: right, I am glad you return to the butcher. L: not an accurate view of reality. N: Yes, right view of the body as elements leads to detachment. L: I agree that it's not > for everyone. N: It depends on the accumulated wisdom of an individual of what dhammas he can have awareness and right understanding. No use to think, we can never know this. Nina. 27152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga, different headings Dear Christine and Suan, Christine, thank you very much for this post. I had read this before several times, but now seeing it on the net, it made a deep impression on me. Going straight to the heart. I add some comment and a question for Suan. op 17-11-2003 20:14 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > 6. In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight > alone, according as it is said: > > `Formations are all impermanent: > > `When he sees thus with understanding >> `And turns away from what is ill, >> `That is the path to purity' (Dh. 277). [3] >> And in some instances by jhana and understanding according as it is > said: >> `He is near unto nibbana >> `In whom are jhana and understanding' (Dh. 372). N: it is understanding that is stressed in all these aspects and it never is so clear to me as now. Also for those who develop jhana: jhana and understanding. Panna should never be lacking. C:>> And in some instances by deeds (kamma), etc., according as it >> is said: >> `By deeds, vision and righteousness, >> `By virtue, the sublimest life - >> `By these are mortals purified, And not by lineage and wealth' (M.iii,262) N: By deeds, vision and righteousness, vision or insight is never absent. C: And in some instances by virtue, etc., according as it is said: `He who is possessed of constant virtue, `Has understanding, and is concentrated, `Is strenuous and diligent as well, `Will cross the flood so difficult to cross' (S.i, 53). N:Has understanding. C: And in some instances by the Foundations of Mindfulness, etc., according as it is said: `Bhikkhus, this path is the only `way for the purification of beings, . . . for the realization of `nibbana, that is to say, the four Foundations of Mindfulness' (D.ii, 290); and similarly in the case of the Right Efforts, and so on. But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two. N: Vipassana. In order to realize nibbana insight has to be developed, no matter someone develops jhana or not. As I see it, all these passages are referring to vipassana, satipatthana, the eightfold Path. At the end of the Ch on virtue, as I wrote before, all degrees of virtue are included: jhanacittas, and all stages of insight and of enlightenment. There is a verse at the end: At the end it is said: N: The teaching of insight , satipatthana, the eightfold Path, leading to the eradication of the wrong view of self is exclusively the teaching of Buddhas. Thus, whenever we read about virtue or jhana in the Suttas we have to remember this. Then understanding of the suttas will become deeper. The threepartite division we find in the Visuddhimagga and also in the suttanta is not a matter of: develop first virtue and concentration and then insight. It is a matter of arranging the material to be taught under these three headings. I am reflecting on what Suan wrote: Suan: < The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena).> I think it is very important to keep this in mind, otherwise misinterpretations will arise. Virtue is in the first chapter, but concentration and understanding are included as well. We read in XIV, 1, the beginning of khandhaniddesa: the same verse that was in the beginning: When a wise man...etc. It is also said: cittasiisena niddi.t.tho: concentration has been explained under the heading of consciousness. Then: Here is dealt with the bhikkhu who has developed all jhanas and the special supernatural powers. He is destined for arahatship. He has to develop understanding of jhanacittas and even the supernatural powers, so that he will not cling to them. N: Suan, I feel it is so useful to learn more about this subject of headings. If you can add more, I appreciate it very much, Nina. 27153 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Robert and anyone else interested in this... Robert wrote: Could you tell us more about your view. How does it relate to this sutta: Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote RobertK Michael It is quite clear that the teachings in the Theravada tradition expressed in the suttas of the Pali Canon affirm that the world is made up of conditioned and interdependent phenomena, and that those phenomena have no intrinsic nature that comes from their own side without depending on external causes and conditions. Therefore all those phenomena should be regarded as composing a conventional reality, something that actually exists, can be experienced, but has no ultimate existence, are utterly empty. The teachings in Theravada are divided into three branches, in addition to the suttas, described above there is also the Abhidhamma which goes deeper than the suttas and treats reality from the perspective of its ultimate components or dhammas. And Bhikhu Bodhi says that “the dhammas alone possess ultimate reality: determinate existence from their own side.” Now if something exists from its own side it means that it has something intrinsic which is independent from anything else. And if that is the case, the attributes of impermanence and no-self cannot be applied. And if you browse the Theravada literature, in particular the commentaries to the Abhidhamma and the Visudhimagga you will come across numerous references that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities – paramatha dhamma - which have an intrinsic nature - svabhava. One has to understand that the Abhidhamma does not deal with ultimate realities but with just another way of presenting the conventional reality. There should be no grasping at the Abhidhamma teachings as representing true existence. That is just another expression of the eternalistic view. Now, referring to the sutta you posted, it is not difficult to understand what the Buddha is saying if you think in terms of conventional reality. From the point of view of conventional reality the world of course exists but from the point of view of ultimate reality there is no world. The Buddha is talking in terms of conventional reality. Metta Michael 27154 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV. 44, 45, water. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/19/2003 1:04:08 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Howard, > Thank you for reacting to my post, I understand that you have a difficult > time just now. My thoughts are with you and your family. ----------------------------- Thank you, Nina. Yes, this is a difficult and exhausting time. ------------------------------ > op 18-11-2003 23:40 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > So, Nina, are you saying that there is no vipassana bhavana? No > > volitional actions that can be taken to cultivate and increase the occurrence > > of mindfulness? > N: We are not so far apart. I read former posts of you where you said that > there is volition but not a self who takes decisions. There is ardour and > striving but no self who does. > We know this in theory, but the idea of self idea creeps in all the time > since we have not eradicated it. The old question comes back: can or should > we do something to develop vipassana? You can guess my answer: cultivate > conditions. Right theoretical understanding of the basics are the condition > and, as you agree, all the perfections. This means, that we are not inclined > to think so much about cultivating or thinking of objects we should be aware > of. That is only thinking and can be realized as a conditioned dhamma, not > so important, not me who thinks.You or others will ask: who cultivates > conditions? Answer: accumulated conditions. Accumulations again! > I find for me that so much reasoning does not help. For me it is best not to > think of wanting to develop vipassana. Besides panna there > are all the other > perfections. > Nina. =================================== You are absolutely right - we are not so far apart at all! :-) With metta, Howard 27155 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard: "If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence a objects." Hi Howard, The question is, can we experience a cetasika and an object at the same time? The example you give above suggests yes but I'm not sure. Also, can we experience two cetasikas at the same time? Desire and pleasant feeling, for example. Larry 27156 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Nina: "Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the dosa can be experienced," Hi Nina, This answers the question I was discussing with Howard. Very interesting. Larry 27157 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Jon: "Things that arise but are not directly experienced by a person do not form part of 'things as they are' of that moment for that person, so not seeing them is no shortcoming on his/her part." Hi Jon, I think we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I have come to the conclusion that a "reasonable" understanding of reality is necessary to cultivate the path but what is reasonable is relative and dependent on accumulations. Not all differences have to be resolved. Larry 27158 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:39pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael > > Dear Michael, I'm still a bit unsure of your position. Michael: > It is quite clear that the teachings in the Theravada tradition expressed in > the suttas of the Pali Canon affirm that the world is made up of conditioned > and interdependent phenomena, " You later say: Michael "From the point of view of conventional reality the world of course exists > but from the point of view of ultimate reality there is no world. " ======== So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? The Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong teachings because they say that dhammas like feelings and consciousness are conditioned realities that arise and pass away and have the attributes of aniccca, dukkha and anatta. Whereas in fact in the ultimate sense, there is nothing anywhere, anytime, at all, ever. Is that your view? RobertK > > The teachings in Theravada are divided into three branches, in addition to > the suttas, described above there is also the Abhidhamma which goes deeper > than the suttas and treats reality from the perspective of its ultimate > components or dhammas. 27159 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Sarah (and RobM), ---------------- S: > Hi RobM & Ken H, I've been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your interesting thread. Lost on his surfboard?? --------------- Sorry Sarah; I do have some flimsy excuses. First, I sensed that Rob was not with us; when he is not posting prolifically, he is away on business or his computer has packed it in. Second, our conversation had reached an agreeable accord -- to have continued might have 'ruined the moment.' Third, I had drafted a reply but couldn't find the right words. When I asked Rob if sila, dana and bhavana ever needed to be put off until another [more suitable] time, it was a trick question, of course. And he bounced it straight back at me. However, we do hear a lot of talk about formal Buddhist practice: when you are walking, know you are walking; when you are pouring a cup of tea, know you are pouring a cup of tea -- that sort of thing. What about; 'When you are racing to stop the baby from tipping a saucepan of boiling water over herself, know you are racing to . . . . . .' We don't hear that one. There are clearly some circumstances when formal 'Buddhist practice' is unworkable. That being so, the very idea of formal Buddhist practice is unworkable; it only reinforces the perception of a controlling self. To me, it seems particularly important that satipatthana can occur even when we are doing something completely unrelated (if you know what I mean). Admittedly, it can happen during calming, relaxing, [related], yoga exercises. However, it can also happen during surf rage or while we are being run over by a bus (both of which are very unrelated, in the conventional sense). There's more to it than that but, like I said, I'm having trouble finding the right words. (I heard on the radio yesterday: When you understand what you are saying, so will your audience.) :-) ---------------- . . . . S: > Hence we come back to understanding with detachment and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of action. ---------------- Excellent -- no pressure, no need to do anything special. Dhamma practice is as natural as anything can be. Kind regards, Ken H PS: You wrote: ". . let's say that the anger experienced during road or surf rage happens to be the object of satipatthana . . Any idea of repeating the rage for this result would clearly be wrong view . . ." Except, of course, if there are longboarders. Someone has to tell them to keep out of the ### water! :-) 27160 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 8:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael - Hi Michael and RobertK, Thanks for this excellent discussion. I was tempted to come in earlier but didn't want to muddy the waters. Perhaps now, I can tactfully suggest (commiserate), Michael, that you have approached Theravada Dhamma study from an unfortunate angle. You have come to it with the preconception (from Mahayana? Nagarjuna?), that sabhava is synonymous with permanence, satisfactoriness and self. This must make Dhamma study almost impossible. To hold that there is nothing that is real, absolute, possessing its own intrinsic nature, is essentially to hold that nothing exists. (which is wrong view (Mahacattarika- sutta).) The two extremes, existence and non-existence, are concepts; the Middle Way is reality. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have their own sabhava (intrinsic natures). To learn these intrinsic natures is, in my humble opinion, the whole purpose of Dhamma study. Kind regards, Ken H PS: We see, yet again, RobertK's awesome ability to produce the appropriate quote: :-) > "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change: this > the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it > exists. Feeling...perception..volitional > formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and > subject to change..I too say that it exists" 27161 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 9:13pm Subject: anapanasatisutta, II b anapanasatisutta, II b In the Papancasudani, the Co to the Anapanasati sutta, there is more explanation on rupas which should be objects of awareness after the meditator has emerged from jhana. As we read at the end of the first tetrad, The Commentary explains, this is a certain body, kåya~n~natara: N: Breath is rupa, and it can be understood as such when it appears through the bodysense, at the nosetip or upperlip. It can appear as solidity or motion or temperature. It can be known as only rupa, not my breath, as non-self. *** Nina. 27162 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 4:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/19/03 9:55:43 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "If I may add my own personal take on this: While we are not > experiencing the cetasikas as objects, we *are* experiencing them as > "flavorings" of, or "background music" for, the mindstate. At least it > seems to me, for example, that there can be an accompanying flavoring of > sadness or of happiness throughout the process of discerning a sequence > a objects." > > Hi Howard, > > The question is, can we experience a cetasika and an object at the same > time? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I suspect yes, but not in the same way. ---------------------------------------------- The example you give above suggests yes but I'm not sure. Also,> > can we experience two cetasikas at the same time? Desire and pleasant > feeling, for example. ------------------------------------------- Howard: I general I would say yes, though desire won't initially arise except in the wake of pleasant feeling. ----------------------------------------- > > Larry > ===================== With metta Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27163 From: Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/19/03 10:51:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Nina: "Dosa arises with a citta and when that has just fallen away, the > dosa can be experienced," > > Hi Nina, > > This answers the question I was discussing with Howard. Very > interesting. > > Larry > ========================== Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know that a bunch of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one or so of them is experienced afterwards. Also, how does one experience something which no longer exists? Also, after the fact, how does one know which was past citta that the currently experienced cetasika accompanied? Frankly, this all makes no sense to me at all. When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part of the experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the midst of a pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that went before. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27164 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis in different editions Hi Connie, Michael & James, --- connie wrote: > The copy I have gives the Harvard edition numbers in [brackets], so for > what it's worth, that [328] minus {footnotes} is below. ... This led to the same place as the Nanamoli reference led us. Thanks for checking. Nothing that seems related to the comment by DK. I even checked the on-line German Vism (which Icaro pointed us to;-)), but it didn’t help. However, I found, like Icaro, that it has the entire text. Not only that, they have highlights at all the sutta reference nos that take one directly to the suttas. Nina, it may be useful for you or any other German speakers: http://www.palikanon.com/ Before I made reference to the passage (Vism V111,39) about ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment.....’ and gave the Niddesa ref. James commented, rightly, that it isn’t a sutta, but a commentary. This is correct. However, I believe the Niddesa, along with the Sutta Nipata has always been part of the Khuddaka Nikaya and is generally attributed to Sariputta (and sometimes MahaKaccayana as well). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/ As we know, there are many suttas given by these key disciples which are elaborations or commentaries on what the Buddha had said. The Honeyball Sutta (Madhupindika Sutta) is a good example. Larry, I just did a google search and keyed in: ‘dates council sutta nipata niddesa’. To my amazement the first entry was a post of mine written long ago to Erik on DSG. You could try it;-) Here’s an extract from that post: S: >As we can see in the case of just one sutta, the Satipatthana sutta or even just in one phrase like ‘ekaayano’, there is nothing simple about the understanding of the suttas. We all read the suttas with different interpretations. Some of us find it helpful to look at the commentaries by Buddhaghosa and others which have been accepted with the greatest respect by the Theravada sangha since the time they were written down. I also understand the origins of the commentaries and Abhidhamma to date from the Buddha’s own lifetime and from his Teachings and those of his great disciples such as MahaKassapa, Sariputta, MahaKaccayana, Ananda and so on who were entrusted to elaborate as appropriate. In the series on the commentary to the Vinaya, I quoted from Malalasekera (The Pali Literature of Ceylon); “When later the text of the canon came to be compiled, arranged, and edited, some of the expositions found their way into the Pitakas and were given a permanent place therein. Thus we have the Sangiti-suttanta of the Digha Nikaya, ascribed to Sariputta and forming a complete catechism of terms and passages of exegetical nature. Such was also the Sacca-vibhanga (an exposition of the four Noble Truths) of the Majjhima, which later found its proper place in the second book of the Abhidhamma-Pitaka, and also the Madhu-pindika-sutta of Maha-Kaccayana, included in the Majjhima Nikaya. It sometimes happened that for a proper understanding of the text, explanations of a commentarial nature were quite essential; and in such cases the commentary was naturally incorporated into the text and formed part of the text itself.......Then there is the Niddesa, a whole book of commentary on texts now included in the Sutta-nipata; and there are passages clearly of a commentarial nature scattered throughout the Nikayas.”< ***** Metta, Sarah ====== 27165 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Here’s another good example that could compete with sabhava for the longest ever running thread here (homework at end of post;-)): --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael > > The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this > discussion. In this sutta we read: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements." > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements." > > The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while > the > second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. .... As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. In this quote, according to the commentary, it refers to bhavanga cittas, defiled by subsequent kilesa (defilements) in the javana process. Of course, different cittas changing at great speed as usual. * Nina & Suan translated the full translation and sub-commentary and trust me, some of us have checked every reference to pandara.m (clear/pure) which can refer to every citta (and be a synonym for citta in some contexts) - clear in that it just has the characteristic to experience objects vs pabhassara.m which cannot be used to refer to all cittas. Many helpful and detailed posts have been written.** .... >The mind has > to be > pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled > in > order to be purified. .... Different moments. This is why ‘pure’ or ‘pure mind’ is best avoided as it leads to so much misunderstanding as you point out in another post to me. .... >If the mind were totally pure (or in other words > already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if > it > were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. > > So, how to solve this puzzle? ..... No ‘totally pure’ mind or ‘buddha-nature’. Even for an arahant or Buddha, there are not sobhana cittas all the time. For example, at moments of seeing or hearing, these are vipaka cittas accompanied by the universal cetasikas only. By defiled and purified, we have to understand a little about processes and when akusala and sobhana cetasikas arise as you do. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Metta, Sarah *a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training in its practice." ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 'Luminous Mind' check post nos: 7296, 7792, 8281, 8336, 8337, 8386, 8408, 10268, 10364, 10469, 10484, 10645, 10719, 10770, 10782, 10785, 11360, 16496, 16771 ======================================================================= 27166 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:00pm Subject: Pure again Hi again Michael (& Thomas), --- Michael Beisert wrote: > First mindfulness is a beautiful cetasika and therefore only arises in > wholesome cittas. In unwholesome cittas there is no possibility of > mindfulness being present. .... Agreed .... > Second if consciousness is ‘pure’ then the task has been done, the > burden > laid down, and there will be no more rebirths, because a purified mind > is > the mind of an arahant. .... I would only use ‘pure’ or clear to refer to pandara.m or citta and as I think it can be so misleading, I think the word pure is best avoided. In my post to Thomas, I was following his lead and used quotation marks, but it was still a mistake because of these confusions and all the connotations with the word. The arahant has no more kilesa, but I think ‘pure’ can again be misleading. As I just said, the vipaka cittas, for example, are just like they are now. No lasting ‘pureness’ or anything else. .... >I cannot comprehend a mind that has alternating > moments of purity and moments of impurity. I can understand a mind which > has > moments of kusala/akusala or wholesome/unwholesome but this is quite > different from pure/impure. .... So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no more potential. Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily misleading. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas, any more comments? ===== 27167 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael (& James), --- Michael Beisert wrote: <..> >one comes across a bewildering array of options in relation > to > that main highway. Those options can be regarded as ramifications of > that > main path but they in themselves can also be called paths of practice, > why > not? .... Hmm... options might suggest choices, selections and a self. .... Although one > likes to refer to the Buddhist practice as consisting of only one path, > there are indeed a myriad of optional paths which can be found in the > suttas, and it would not be befitting to a supreme physician to be > prescribing all the same medicine to all his patients irrespective of > their > ailments. .... On the contrary, I believe the extraordinary wisdom of the Buddha was to realize the truths - the universal affliction, its cause, the final relief and the correct same medicine. These truths, as I was writing to Jeff recently, do not depend on the lack-lustre or colourful experiences which we are used to attaching such importance to. They depend on the development of panna (understanding) and the development of insights into the paramatha dhammas (ultimate realities) which are experienced at any time. Of course no two sets of experiences are identical, not even two moments of consciousness or two visible objects. However, the characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta are common to all namas and rupas or dhatus (elements). The path has to be one of detachment rather than one of assigning importance to any particular phenomena experienced. You gave a good analogy of two different paths passing by the same farm to suggest there are different routes. As I don’t drive, maybe I could suggest a very long train ride instead? Same route, same journey, but different sights, sounds and experiences en route. I’m not sure how far we can take our journeys here;-) Whatever I read in the texts - suttas, abhidhamma or commentaries - I read as a description of satipatthana, the one path that leads to the eradication of an idea of self and of all other kilesa (defilements). Nina has pointed out several references in her series on anapanasati to show that even those who had attained the highest jhanas (by conditions) still had to understand the realities as namas and rupas after emerging from these jhanas and to relinquish all attachment for these states. Ultimately, all conditioned dhammas are dukkha and unsatisfactory. The path doesn’t depend on any special experiences, but on the development of sati and panna at this moment, regardless of how our lives are conditioned. In the Satipatthana sutta, as Nina just pointed out, “The Buddha arranged the objects of mindfulness in many different ways to help different people to be aware of the presently arisen reality.” We need to hear about paramattha dhammas so many times and from so many different angles before understanding really begins to develop and doubts disappear about what the Path really is, I think. I look forward to further feedback. Greatly appreciating your comments. Metta, Sarah ==== 27168 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote at the end of his post: J: > I hope I have explained myself thoroughly. If anyone other than > Sarah has actually read to the end of this post, you should be > congratulated! ;-) .... For what it’s worth, James, I thought it was a very good post indeed and you explained yourself very thoroughly. Thank you . (Of course, such praise doesn’t mean we’re in fagreement, but no one would expect that;-)) I think I’ve mostly explained my understanding just now to Michael, but I’ll add a couple more points. ..... J: > Okay, first, it has to be understood that we are discussing `The Path > of Purification' taught by Buddhaghosa, not the Noble Eightfold Path > taught by Lord Buddha. I believe that they are different in very > essential ways. Suttas and ideas concerning one cannot be applied > directly to the other. .... On the other hand, I see ‘the Path of Purification’ as being a thorough description of the Noble Eightfold Path: “The path of purification is the path to that purificaion [nibbana]; it is the means of approach that is called the path.” The same word ‘visuddhi’ is used in the Dhp quote I just used in a post to Howard: Dhp 279 "All Dhammas are without a soul, when this, with wisdom,one discerns then is one disgusted with ill; this is the path to purity (esa maggo visuddhiyaa)." (Naarada transl) ..... <...> > Now, to understand why I say that Buddhaghosa has invented these > three categories is going to be difficult because it is very subtle. > The categories of morality, concentration and insight by Buddhaghosa > are not the same three aggregates that you refer to in this sutta > from MN. This sutta details that the Noble Eightfold path can be > explained in three aggregates, namely morality, concentration, and > insight, but that the three and the one are not the same thing. As > the sutta states, "The three aggregates are not included by the Noble > eightfold Path, friend Visakha, but the Noble Eightfold Path is > included by the three aggregates." The footnote explains, "The word > khandha here has a different meaning than in the more common context > of the five aggregates affected by clinging. It here refers to a > bod of training principles, the three divisions of the Noble > Eightfold Path into virtue (sila), concentration (samadhi), and > wisdom (panna)." ..... I agree it refers to the three divisions of the Eightfold Path, though I think ‘training principles’ can be misleading which is why I had the note;-) .... > This is NOT how Buddhaghosa uses these terms. He presents these > terms in the same light that he presents the introductory values, as > sovereign, independent concepts. To Buddhagohsa, Virtue (Sila) isn't > a category for a set of training principals, it is a single entity. > The same follows for Concentration and Wisdom. ..... On the contrary, I understand that throughtout the Vism, Buddhaghosa is referring to these wholesome mental factors as constituents of the Path. Realities, not concepts. I don’t find any conflict at all, but you’re welcome to elaborate further. Perhaps I don’t understand what you mean by ‘sovereign, independent concepts’. I think that the Vism is a very difficult text and we are bound to read it according to our varied understandings. I assure you there is plenty in it that I’d be at a complete loss to explain. Metta, Sarah ===== 27169 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries Hi again James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > Yes, I want you to list every single one of them! ;-) (just > kidding). ..... There was a momentary panic;-) ..... >No, I think this is enough. I have no reason to doubt > this scholarship, it seems pretty sound. However, this is somewhat > contradictory to what hs been discussed earlier, that the original > commentaries had fallen into disuse. If authors were using them up > into the thirteenth century, then they were pretty important. Why > did they suddenly disappear? As I have stated before, I don't > believe that Buddhaghosa threw them away or something, but I do think > that they met with foul play of some sort. Ohhh…a mystery! ;-) ..... Quite a little fun diversion off the path;-) I imagine they were less and less used. It reminds me of Jim’s search for the early Pali grammars. If he’s lucky, he’ll find one in a second-hand bookshop, but we can see how lack of demand leads to disappearance. It’s the same with some of the Pali commentaries. I remember Teng Kee was trying to track some down before. I won’t ask for your sympathetic comments - these are merely examples of how texts fall into oblivion. As we know, as the interest in the Tipitaka declines, so will all the texts disappear, starting with those least appreciated. We know what they are;-) G.Malalasekera in ‘The Pali Literature of Ceylon’ writes about the disappearance of the Sinhalese commentaries: “It is a hopleless task to inquire into what has become of the old Sinhalese commentaries; no trace of them now exists. ‘The early diffusion of Pali among the priesthood and the learned laity, and the subsequent introduction of Sanskrit literature and Sanskrit verbiage into the once pure Elu, must have so choked that language that it died out early and its memory was cherished only by the lovers of Parnassus. For all religious and philosphic purposes Pali ans Sanskritized Sinhalese began to be used from a very early period and continue to be used to this day.’ “ Metta, Sarah ======= 27170 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Howard (Jon & Larry), --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > > My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in > some > sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, > this is > discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only > by > inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the > world", > perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. ..... Good points and I agree it seems this way. We’d have said the same about directly knowing namas and rupas when we first heard about them. However, we shouldn’t underestimate what developed panna (wisdom) can know. This knowledge of groups is known directly at the third stage of insight. Metta, Sarah ===== 27171 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hello to Ken H, Sarah and RobM, -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Sarah (and RobM), > > ---------------- > S: > Hi RobM & Ken H, > > I've been waiting patiently for KenH to continue your > interesting thread. > Lost on his surfboard?? > --------------- > > Sorry Sarah; I do have some flimsy excuses. First, I > sensed that Rob was not with us; when he is not posting > prolifically, he is away on business or his computer has > packed it in. Second, our conversation had reached an > agreeable accord -- to have continued might have 'ruined > the moment.' Third, I had drafted a reply but couldn't > find the right words. > Me too [Sarah's suggestion from a few posts ago], but the 'me too' means here that I often can't find the right words. Want to reply but can't quite get there! My excuse this time is that I'm on night shift and am about to fall asleep right here at the comput....zzzzz .....just kidding. Firstly, for KenH, I feel a tad sad that I won't be attending the upcoming w/e at Cooran; I leave those w/e feeling very uplifted. Hello to the others for me. > When I asked Rob if sila, dana and bhavana ever needed to > be put off until another [more suitable] time, it was a > trick question, of course. And he bounced it straight > back at me. However, we do hear a lot of talk about > formal Buddhist practice: when you are walking, know you > are walking; when you are pouring a cup of tea, know you > are pouring a cup of tea -- that sort of thing. What > about; 'When you are racing to stop the baby from tipping > a saucepan of boiling water over herself, know you are > racing to . . . . . .' We don't hear that one. > LOL when I read this, I think you have worded that very well. > > To me, it seems particularly important that satipatthana > can occur even when we are doing something completely > unrelated (if you know what I mean). Admittedly, it can > happen during calming, relaxing, [related], yoga > exercises. However, it can also happen during surf rage > or while we are being run over by a bus (both of which > are very unrelated, in the conventional sense). > Always a hard one for me, always wanting to 'do something' > . . . . > S: > Hence we come back to understanding with detachment > and no expectation, rather than a prescribed course of > action. > ---------------- > > Excellent -- no pressure, no need to do anything special. > Dhamma practice is as natural as anything can be. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > To Sarah: in answer to a post a few days ago, about my Q in myanmar re the 'positioning' of the khandhas. Yes, I can see why vedana and sanna are a khandha each, they do keep 'us' running around; road rage bc we rememeber what its like when there's not much traffic and we like that better; when there's no longboarders in the surf :-) cos we like it better without them, etc. Despite being on the zombie shift, I have enjoyed the current lot of posts, lots of 'meat' so to speak. To RobM: Anumodana, I suspect you spend a lot of time doing Dhamma things, teachin etc. On one of your posts you mentioned going to SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So much NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27172 From: robmoult Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > On one of your posts you mentioned going to > SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So much > NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. Sorry, you got me on that one... please translate "NRG". I will definitely let you and Christine know the next time I come to Brisbane area. I had planned a trip recently, but discovered that Christine was going to be in Myanmar at that time, so I cancelled it. Metta, Rob M :-) 27173 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Cooranites, --- gazita2002 wrote: > Firstly, for KenH, I feel a tad sad that I won't be attending the > upcoming w/e at Cooran; I leave those w/e feeling very uplifted. ...... Oh we haven’t heard anything about the agenda for this one....(is there one at all this time??).Hope you’re all doing your preparation and have a very uplifting weekend even though you won’t have Azita’s cheery presence and zappy reminders about this moment. Metta, Sarah p.s Looking forward to the reports of discussions and all the background details - over-fed cats, noisy cockatoos, star-gazing, dietary accumulations or whatever else. ============================= 27174 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Michael, Sarah / Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Dear Michael, Sarah, there is no contradiction in this. "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." - The original mind of ours was a Pure Mind, a undefiled mind. But it became defiled by refelction upon an "external" world, which doesn't exist, so eventaully the mind created the extrenal world itself by the question "What is out there?". At the very same moment it was bound to a samsaric body, and ever since it transmigrates in illusionary states in the cycle of samsara and creates all kinds of imbalances (negative deeds) out of delusion about the world which doesn't exist in the first place. "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." - Elightenment is nothing but freeing the mind from defilements. Yet there is no attainment that leads to this Enlightenment, and there is no doer who becomes enlightened. By realizing that nothing has to be attained, when all thoughts are stopped, the mind becomes the Pure Mind again, escapes the illusion of the world, and is in its original state. Without any thought it perceives reality like it is. Thoughts are only interpretations of the reality. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote:Hi Michael, You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Here’s another good example that could compete with sabhava for the longest ever running thread here (homework at end of post;-)): --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael > > The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this > discussion. In this sutta we read: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements." > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements." > > The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while > the > second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. .... As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. In this quote, according to the commentary, it refers to bhavanga cittas, defiled by subsequent kilesa (defilements) in the javana process. Of course, different cittas changing at great speed as usual. * Nina & Suan translated the full translation and sub-commentary and trust me, some of us have checked every reference to pandara.m (clear/pure) which can refer to every citta (and be a synonym for citta in some contexts) - clear in that it just has the characteristic to experience objects vs pabhassara.m which cannot be used to refer to all cittas. Many helpful and detailed posts have been written.** .... >The mind has > to be > pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled > in > order to be purified. .... Different moments. This is why ‘pure’ or ‘pure mind’ is best avoided as it leads to so much misunderstanding as you point out in another post to me. .... >If the mind were totally pure (or in other words > already had a “Buddha-nature”) it would not have to be purified and if > it > were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. > > So, how to solve this puzzle? ..... No ‘totally pure’ mind or ‘buddha-nature’. Even for an arahant or Buddha, there are not sobhana cittas all the time. For example, at moments of seeing or hearing, these are vipaka cittas accompanied by the universal cetasikas only. By defiled and purified, we have to understand a little about processes and when akusala and sobhana cetasikas arise as you do. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Metta, Sarah *a note by B.Bodhi at the back of his anthology from Anguttara Nikaya (p.278, note 13) which gives his own quite neat summary of the meaning of Luminous (pabhassaram) in the suttas we've discussed so much. I think this pretty much accords with what some of us have been saying and quoting. (Note AA refers to the commentary): "Luminous (pabhassaram). AA states that here "the mind" (citta) refers to the bhavanga-citta, the "life-continuum" or underlying stream of consciousness which supervenes whenever active consciousness lapses, most notably in deep sleep. The 'adventitious defilements' are greed, hatred and delusion, which appear at a stage of the cognitive process which, in later Buddhist literature, is called javana, "impulsion". AA says that the defilements do not arise simultaneously with the bhavanga, but they 'arrive' later, at the phase of javana. the fact that this expression "luminous mind" does not signify any "eternal and pure mind-essence" is evident for the preceding text, in which the mind is said to be extremely fleeting and transitory. the "uninstructed worldling" (assutavaa puthujjana) is one who lacks adequate knowledge of the dhamma and training in its practice." ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts 'Luminous Mind' check post nos: 7296, 7792, 8281, 8336, 8337, 8386, 8408, 10268, 10364, 10469, 10484, 10645, 10719, 10770, 10782, 10785, 11360, 16496, 16771 ======================================================================= 27175 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi Howard > Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know > that a bunch > of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one or so of them> is > experienced afterwards. Also, how does one experience something> which no longer exists? k: Conditions - as citta A condition citta B. Citta B can take citta A as an object for cognize even though A has been past. > Also, after the fact, how does one know which was past citta that> the > currently experienced cetasika accompanied? >Frankly, this all makes no sense to me at all. When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part> of the > experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the> midst of a > pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that went > before. k: That will depends on the pattananaya (conditional relations). Abdhihamma always like to make things very technnical and at times a bit complicated - 24 ways of conditional relations. Depending on so called "strength" of the citta or cetasikas, one of them will conditon the experienced that the present citta B will experience. Come to think about it, technically it is quite illogical to accept that how come one only experience a feeling when the feeling was already past. But this is possible due to conditions and its conditions relations between one past and one preceding cittas. The experience of the citta has been "transferred" to the preceding one by conditions and strength of the conditions relations. I hope I get it right also :) Cheers Kind regards Ken O 27176 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi agin, Nina & Larry - In a message dated 11/20/03 2:19:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > When something pleasant is experienced, that pleasantness is in the mind > right then and there - it colors ones mental state, and it is part of the > experience. After the fact one is aware that one was just in the midst of a > pleasant experience, but that is not experiencing the pleasantness - that > went > before. > =========================== Just a drop more. (First of all, let me say that I''m not certain on this issue - I would be willing to be persuaded contrary to my stated position if I came upon what I considered to be a sufficiently detailed, plausible, and understandable argument.) It seems to me that on any occasion there are in play the discernment of a single object, through some sense door, and, simultaneously, a good number of other functions and conditions associated with that object as concomitants to that discerning (vi~n~nana). All of the cetasikas, with varying degrees of being evident, are part of the experience we call "the current mindstate". Afterwards, we may take a memory of that mindstate or aspects of it as an object, and that later mindstate will have its own associated cetasikas, most often including duplicates of earlier ones that were part of the mindstate being remembered. (Typically, when remembering a pleasant event, for example, the current feeling is pleasantness, though other conditions such as regret might elicit sadness instead. This opposite feeling of sadness, however, is probably not in effect during the remembering, but afterwards. It seems likely to me that the memory of a pleasant experience is always pleasant, but it may be followed by regret at the thought of having found it pleasant, and that state of regret would be unpleasant.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27177 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: Introduction to Visuddhimagga, different headings: To Nina Dear Nina How are you? Nina : I am reflecting on what Suan wrote: Suan: < The expression "ekaayano (ayam bhikkhave) maggo" in Mahasatipa.t.thaana Suttam (Discourse On The Establishment Of Recollection) is used to signify (as adjectives) the four establishings of recollection (cattaaro satipa.t.thaanaa). Here, the Buddha was describing the establishment of recollection as the Only Way (for overcoming worry and grief, , and for realizing nibbaana). This type of singling out one component, namely right recollection, of the Noble Eightfold Path and equating it with the path (equating a part with the whole) is called "Teaching By Making Recollection As Head" (Satisiisena).> Nina: I think it is very important to keep this in mind, otherwise misinterpretations will arise. Virtue is in the first chapter, but concentration and understanding are included as well. We read in XIV, 1, the beginning of khandhaniddesa: the same verse that was in the beginning: When a wise man...etc. It is also said: cittasiisena niddi.t.tho: concentration has been explained under the heading of consciousness. Then: Here is dealt with the bhikkhu who has developed all jhanas and the special supernatural powers. He is destined for arahatship. He has to develop understanding of jhanacittas and even the supernatural powers, so that he will not cling to them. Nina asked: N: Suan, I feel it is so useful to learn more about this subject of headings. If you can add more, I appreciate it very much, Suan answered: Yes, Nina, I agree with you, and I will add more. For now, I am doing some reading (of relevant Pali texts) to refute professor David Kalupahana's wrong views against Buddhaghosa in particular, and Pali commentaries in general. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Christine and Suan, > Christine, thank you very much for this post. I had read this before several > times, but now seeing it on the net, it made a deep impression on me. Going straight to the heart. Nina. 27178 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 6:46am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 32-36 32. (v) How is it [understanding] developed? Now the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the "soil" of this understanding, and the [first] two purifications, namely, purification of virtue and purification of consciousness, are its "roots", while the five purifications, namely, purification of view, purification by overcoming doubt, purification by knowledge and vision of what is the path and what is not the path, purification by knowledge and vision of the way, and purification by knowledge and vision, are the "trunk". Consequently, one who is perfecting these should first fortify his knowledge by learning and questioning about these things that are the 'soil' after he has perfected the two purifications that are the 'roots', then he can develop the five purifications that are the 'trunk'. This is in brief. The detail is as follows. 32. katha.m bhaavetabbaati ettha pana yasmaa imaaya pa~n~naaya khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumi. siilavisuddhi ceva cittavisuddhi caati imaa dve visuddhiyo muula.m. di.t.thivisuddhi, ka"nkhaavitara.navisuddhi, maggaamagga~naa.nadassanavisuddhi, pa.tipadaa~naa.na dassana visuddhi, ~naa.nadassanavisuddhiiti imaa pa~nca visuddhiyo sariira.m. tasmaa tesu bhuumibhuutesu dhammesu uggahaparipucchaavasena ~naa.naparicaya.m katvaa muulabhuutaa dve visuddhiyo sampaadetvaa sariirabhuutaa pa~nca visuddhiyo sampaadentena bhaavetabbaa. ayamettha sa"nkhepo. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ [B. DESCRIPTION OF THE FIVE AGGREGATES] 33. When it was said above 'the things classed as aggregates, bases, elements, faculties, truths, dependent origination, etc., are the 'soil', the "aggregates" here are the five aggregates, that is to say, the materiality aggregate, the feeling aggregate, the perception aggregate, the formations aggregate, and the consciousness aggregate. 33. aya.m pana vitthaaro, ya.m taava vutta.m ``khandhaayatanadhaatuindriyasaccapa.ticcasamuppaadaadibhedaa dhammaa bhuumii''ti, ettha khandhaati pa~nca khandhaa ruupakkhandho vedanaakkhandho sa~n~naakkhandho sa"nkhaarakkhandho vi~n~naa.nakkhandhoti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 34. Herein, all kinds of states whatsoever that have the characteristic of 'being molested' (ruppana) by cold, etc., taken all together should be understood as the materiality (ruupa) aggregate. 1. That is of one kind with the characteristic of 'being molested'. 2. It is also of two kinds when classed as (a) primary entity (bhuuta) and (b) derived [by clinging] (upaadaaya). 34. tattha ya.m ki~nci siitaadiihi ruppanalakkha.na.m dhammajaata.m, sabba.m ta.m ekato katvaa ruupakkhandhoti veditabba.m. tadeta.m ruppanalakkha.nena ekavidhampi bhuutopaadaayabhedato duvidha.m. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 35. Herein (a) "primary materiality" is of four kinds as the earth element, water element, fire element, and air element. Their characteristic, function, and manifestation have been given under the definition of the four elements (Ch. XI, 87, 93); but as to the proximate cause, each has the other three as its proximate cause. [444] 35. tattha bhuutaruupa.m catubbidha.m pathaviidhaatu aapodhaatu tejodhaatu vaayodhaatuuti. taasa.m lakkha.narasapaccupa.t.thaanaani catudhaatuvavatthaane vuttaani. pada.t.thaanato pana taa sabbaapi avasesadhaatuttayapada.t.thaanaa. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 36. (b) "Derived materiality" is of twenty-four kinds as eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, visible datum, sound, odour, flavour (13), feminity faculty, masculinity faculty, life faculty, heart-basis; bodily intimation,verbal intimation; space element; lightness of matter, malleability of matter, wieldiness of matter, growth of matter, continuity of matter, ageing of matter, impermanence of matter, and physical nutriment. 36. upaadaaruupa.m catuviisatividha.m cakkhu, sota.m, ghaana.m, jivhaa, kaayo, ruupa.m, saddo, gandho, raso, itthindriya.m, purisindriya.m, jiivitindriya.m, hadayavatthu, kaayavi~n~natti, vaciivi~n~natti, aakaasadhaatu, ruupassa lahutaa, ruupassa mudutaa , ruupassa kamma~n~nataa, ruupassa upacayo, ruupassa santati, ruupassa jarataa, ruupassa aniccataa, kaba.liikaaro aahaaroti. ------------------------- (13) 'Tangible data are omitted from this list because, not being derived matter, they are included in the primaries' (Pm.442). They are described as consisting of three of the four primaries, excluding the water (cohesion) element. 'What is the materiality of the great primaries? It is the tangible-data base and the water-element' (Dhs.663). For the whole list see Dhs. 596, in which (N.B) the heart-base does not appear. See also note 32 Ch. XV, n.15. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 27179 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42n Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/20/03 5:42:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard (Jon &Larry), > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > > > > My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in > >some > >sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, > >this is > >discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only > >by > >inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the > >world", > >perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. > ..... > Good points and I agree it seems this way. We’d have said the same about > directly knowing namas and rupas when we first heard about them. However, > we shouldn’t underestimate what developed panna (wisdom) can know. This > knowledge of groups is known directly at the third stage of insight. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ========================== I get your point, and I won't say it's wrong, because I can't know that. However, it strikes me that this is making pa~n~na into a catch-all for everything we have a problem explaining, making it a sort of dumping bin for explanations. Now, of course, it is quite possible that in an arahant inference based on sa~n~na is replaced by pa~n~na, but, as I say, if we just assume this is so without evidence and without clear teachings to that effect in the suttas, then there is a real danger of turning pa~n~na into an escape hatch for all difficulties of explanation. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27180 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/20/03 7:10:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Seems sort of reasonable at first, except how do we know > >that a bunch >of cetasikas arose with a given citta when only one > or so of them> is >experienced afterwards. Also, how does one > experience something> which no longer exists? > > k: Conditions - as citta A condition citta B. Citta B can take > citta A as an object for cognize even though A has been past. > ======================== With no offence intended, this strikes me as nonsense. Perhaps a memory of A could be object for B, but not A itself, for at the time of B, THERE IS no A. One cannot observe what does not exist. The thinking that dhammas continue to exist in some manner throughout time is a substantialist "heresy" of the Sarvastivadins. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27181 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael RobertK, Riobert wrote So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? The Abhidhamma and commentaries are wrong teachings because they say that dhammas like feelings and consciousness are conditioned realities that arise and pass away and have the attributes of aniccca, dukkha and anatta. Whereas in fact in the ultimate sense, there is nothing anywhere, anytime, at all, ever. Is that your view? Michael: Tell me, the chair you are sitting on, or the table you have in front of you, have you ever tried to find the “tableness” of that table? That elusive quality that makes it be a table? And also if you separate the table into its constituting parts, can you still find a table in those parts? Of course not. So, the table only exists because of the supportive conditions, and due to its parts, and of course also the fact that we gave it that name. So, can you really tell me that the table exists? Where did it go when you took it apart? Don’t put words in my mouth, I never said the Abhidhamma is wrong. The problems are in the commentaries which define the dhammas as ultimate reality (paramatha) with an intrinsic essence (svabhava), or in other words that they really exist. This is wrong view in accordance with the suttas. Metta Michael 27182 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:39am Subject: Vis.37, misleading translation. Hi Larry and all, This translation is misleading. It looks as if the four great elements acquire sensitivity, but that is not so. Let me analyse it. 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 37. tattha ruupaabhighaataarahatappasaadalakkha.na.m da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa cakkhu, N: impact of visible object, ruupaabhighaata, readiness or fitness, arahataa, the eyesense (sensitivity), pasaada. Then at end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m. Thus we can say: sentient organ that is ready for the impact of visible data is the characteristic (of the eye). No mention here of primaries, or the four great elements, bhuutas. Pasada, literally brightness or clearness, (it is a revealer) is a derived rupa with its own specific nature or characteristic, (sa-bhava, own nature) also called pasaada-ruupa. It is sentient organ, eyesense, earsense, etc. Now the second part, and for this I needed to consult the Atthasalini, 307 (Expositor II, p. 404). Vis reads: I analyse: sourcing from desire to see, da.t.thukaamataa nidaana, originated by kamma, kammasamu.t.thaana, sentient organ depending on the primaries, bhuutappasaada. At the end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m, and eye, cakkhu. In a compound stems are used and except for the last one, no case endings are used. But bhuuta stands for the genetive case, but in the compound this ending is eliminated. This will be clear from what follows. In the Tiika it is said: catunna.m bhuutaana.m pasaado : the sensitivity of the four primaries. Now see Atthasalini: Thus we read the genetive: of the four primaries, but the meaning is: depending on. The second characteristic becomes: or its characteristic is the sentient organ depending on the primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. As to the proximate cause: Here the primary elements arising together in a group with the sentient organ are also produced by kamma sourcing from desire to see. This is clear. Nina. 27183 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello Ken, Ken wrote: The two extremes, existence and non-existence, are concepts; the Middle Way is reality. Only realities (paramattha dhammas) have their own sabhava (intrinsic natures). To learn these intrinsic natures is, in my humble opinion, the whole purpose of Dhamma study. Michael If they have an intrinsic nature it means they have an essence, that they truly exist from their own side, and that is one extreme rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 27184 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Sarah, Sarah wrote: Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. I realize these lines hold great significance for many people coming from a Mahayana tradition. Michael: Sarah, I don't come from a Mahayana tradition, but I try to keep my eyes and ears open and not hold on too tight to my views. There was a time when I believed the Commentaries to be correct, that the Abhidhamma describes paramatha dhammas and that they have svabhava. Now, in my humble opinion, this is wrong view. I wish in my somewhat unskilful ways I can stirr some doubts in the readers of this list. Metta Michael PS: Tks for the links - I will read them carefully.:) 27185 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:54am Subject: Re: Pure again Dear Sarah: Sarah:" The arahant has no more kilesa, but I think `pure' can again be > misleading. As I just said, the vipaka cittas, for example, are just like > they are now. No lasting `pureness' or anything else." ------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah! Back to Air Base!!!! My bootcamp is ending at last!!! I will post here at DSG my bootcamp photos... muddled, hanged up at ropes, eating jungle food with some reluctant comrades around me... "Scenes of a Bootcamp !!!" or " The practical uses of the Bamboo Grove´s Sutta" I always kept in my mind the Buddha´s Sermon at Bamboo grove, and the paramount ideas of Sammuit-Sacca and Paramattha-Sacca! "Hercules Squad!!! Go Go Go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------ Sarah:" So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can > say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the > potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no > more potential." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Jungle survival is a hard road to step on! 10% of our Hercules Squad suffered up casualities... injuries ankles, slashed toes and many grrrls saying "Oh My goodness... I cannot bear such efforts..." Mike, you could to be there to raise up the grrrrrls´ fighting spirit...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily > misleading." ------------------------------------------------------------------ Gosh!!! The Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be there too to salute our Hercules Squad!!! "You all boys and girls done well at Jungle Bootcamp !!!" Mettaya, Ícaro 27186 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, How is the train ride?:) Better than my car for sure;) Sarah: I believe the extraordinary wisdom of the Buddha was to realize the truths - the universal affliction, its cause, the final relief and the correct same medicine. Michael: Agree with you up to ‘same medicine’. That is not what you read in the suttas. There were countless situations with varying medicines. One can argue that the ‘best’ medicine is the Noble Eightfold Path but that was not the cure for all that the Buddha prescribed in every situation. And each medicine can be called a path of practice. Take the perspective of the person who got the advice from the Buddha, whatever that might be, for her/him that is her/his path of practice. Sarah: These truths, as I was writing to Jeff recently, do not depend on the lack-lustre or colourful experiences which we are used to attaching such importance to. They depend on the development of panna (understanding) and the development of insights into the paramatha dhammas (ultimate realities) which are experienced at any time. Michael: I prefer to say insight into the three characteristics and not into paramatha dhamma. In my opinion, as you are probably sick of hearing by now, paramatha dhamma is a dupe. Sarah: Whatever I read in the texts - suttas, abhidhamma or commentaries - I read as a description of satipatthana, the one path that leads to the eradication of an idea of self and of all other kilesa (defilements). Michael: I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the three kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, there is no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds of knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true realization of the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other 2 kinds of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? Metta Michael 27187 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 0:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Michael,and all, I am interestedly reading your exchanges with other members. I may be being particularly dense this morning (6.30 a.m. Brisbane time now) but can you tell me about the three kinds of true knowledge and give me a reference please? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the three > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, there is > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds of > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true realization of > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other 2 kinds > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? > > > Metta > Michael 27188 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hello RobM, NRG = energy, some sort of slang that I've collected from somewhere. Hope your trip goes well and may you be safe and happy, Cheers, Azita --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" > wrote: > > On one of your posts you mentioned going to > > SriLanka, China and somewhere else - can't remember where. So > much > > NRG!! If you ever travel this way, Cairns, Aust. please visit. > > Sorry, you got me on that one... please translate "NRG". I will > definitely let you and Christine know the next time I come to > Brisbane area. I had planned a trip recently, but discovered that > Christine was going to be in Myanmar at that time, so I cancelled it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27189 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Sarah: You’re raising all the most controversial DSG topics in your first week on board;-) Michael: Sorry;) But I cannot resist. Sarah: As I understand, pabhassara.m can only refer to bhavanga cittas and sobhana cittas. Michael, if you have time (lucky you’re retired;-)), pls check some of the posts below. Let me know if this is over-kill or whether you have further points for discussion. Michael: I have read some of the posts (confess not all of them) and gather that the kernel of the discussion was around the sutta commentary. I haven’t seen in the posts the following remarks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, if it has already been mentioned sorry for the redundancy: “This statement (Luminous, monks, is the mind) has engendered a great deal of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" here refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises more questions than it answers. There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta or the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an Abhidhamma treatise, the Patthana); and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? And why would the perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” BTW, the inclusion of bhavanga in the commentaries is another critique that DK makes of the commentaries for the same reasons outlined above. Metta Michael 27190 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 1:51pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Sukin, The discourses are the major source from which I learn the teaching of the Buddha. Reflecting on what the Buddha taught, I see that the qualities of the Buddha's teaching do lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. These are the qualities of the Dhamma/Doctrine. My study in the Vinaya Pitaka is not extensive; however, I do see that the qualities of the code of discipline lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome. These are the qualities of the Vinaya/Discipline. What I know about the Abhidhamma Pitaka mostly comes from reading people's discussions online, writings on the internet. I also had the book _Abhidhamma Studies: Buddhist Explorations of Consciousness and Time_ by Nyanaponika Thera, which I did not finish reading. From what I read about Abhidhamma Pitaka, my impression is that the content of Abhidhamma Pitaka is mainly of an elaborate taxonomy and theory about mental phenomena. To me, it is not much different from a taxonomy in biology in its nature, except the objects the its classification. I thus tend to see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as a result of scholastic pursuit, intentionlly or unintentionally. To me, the "flavor" or "taste" of the content of the Abhidhamma Pitaka is different from that of the content in the discourses and the code of discipline, whereas "this Dhamma and Discipline has one taste, the taste of liberation."* I would say my knowledge in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is superficial. On the other hand, I have not read all the discourses and remembered all the code of discipline. But as the question James posed: Does a person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes salty? ** I don't think so. You asked: how according to you does the Buddha's Teachings as taught in the Suttas, "lead to dispassion, not to passion; to being unfettered, not to being fettered; to shedding, not to accumulating; to modesty, not to self-aggrandizement; to contentment, not to discontent; to seclusion, not to entanglement; to aroused persistence, not to laziness; to being unburdensome, not to being burdensome"? Particularly if you could, apply the same question to the practice of formal meditation! How does formal meditation lead to dispassion etc.? My response is that: Reflect on the Buddha's teaching and put the Buddha's instruction into practice. Peace, Victor * Udana V.5 Uposatha Sutta The Observance Day http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- 05a.html ** http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/26935 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27191 From: gazita2002 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 2:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Christine and Michael, Maybe the density extends along the east coast, Chris, bc I was wondering what these 3 are too. Maybe its that 'dog' thing!!!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Michael,and all, > > I am interestedly reading your exchanges with other members. I may > be being particularly dense this morning (6.30 a.m. Brisbane time > now) but can you tell me about the three kinds of true knowledge and > give me a reference please? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the > three > > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, > there is > > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds > of > > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true > realization of > > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other > 2 kinds > > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? > > > > > > Metta > > Michael For MIchael; you wrote: if they have an intrinsic nature it means they have an essence, that they truly exist from their own side, and that is one extreme rejected by the Buddha. Are you saying that they [paramatta dhammas] do not exist? If I've misinterperated you, forgive me, bc I'm unclear as to what you are suggesting. patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27192 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Introduction to Visuddhimagga LONG [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert .... Hi Sarah, Could you provide some references regarding clinging to wholesome states? Did the Buddha ever address the problem of clinging to wholesome states, if there is such problem at all? As I understand it, the Buddha explained clinging/sustenance as the following: "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. I don't see that the Buddha taught in the following amount to teaching clinging to the wholesome states: "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. I also don't see what the Buddha said in the following is about clinging to renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm- pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. So, exactly what do you mean by clinging to wholesome states? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken O, [snip] > Sarah > > p.s I agree with your comment to Victor about attachment - clinging to > anything, even to calm or wisdom or other wholesome states. Hence, tanha > (craving) is the cause of suffering. (Only exceptions: nibbana and > lokuttara cittas cannot be objects of attachment) 27193 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:00am Subject: RE: New member, Jeff Brooks A defense of Ecstatic Buddhism Please excuse my delay in replying, I fully expected to get back on to each and every Yahoo group that I posted my brief spiritual bio to, but I have had over 150 email messages on most days since I post that biography a week ago. And, I have endeavor to give each thoughtful message sent to me a personal and thoughtful response. Therefore, I have literally spent every moment from roughly 6 AM, after my morning meditation, to 9 PM before my evening meditation, reading and responding to these very thoughtful and tender responses to my simple contemplative biography. I do however take breaks for rest and meals, as well as a mid-day break to lead a meditation sit with my tiny sangha here in Tucson. Many apologies to all of you if my message last week caused any difficulties for anyone. I do certainly seek not to harm, but only to benefit all beings. I have found it is my work to validate, contextualize, authenticate through canonical support, and to generally support the ecstatic contemplative, who are sincere seekers, in their journey. It is interesting to note that most of the responses have been from ecstatic contemplatives who feel they either have had no support for their practice, or they have been dismissed by their meditation teachers and spiritual guides due to their various charismatic manifestations. I regret that a few small flaws in my writing implied that there was not ample and excellent support in many religions and traditions of the world. And, there is of course excellent support for the ecstatic contemplative here on Yahoo as well. And, no doubt that excellent support is most probably available on this very Yahoo list. I posted to this list because I felt it fit in a general way within the context of meditation and the various charismatic manifestations that can occur to some contemplatives. Perhaps 98% of the responses I have received to my simple bio have been positive. And, they have come from contemplatives in almost every tradition and religion. Remarkably there have been a small number of misguided people who claim to be teachers of the Buddha dhamma. I too often find I am being accused of "arhat practice" as though it is some kind of dirty word or misguided practice. My practice is "Arahant practice" as was the historic Buddha's, he was after all called "an Arahant, a fully enlightened being," by his students. Arahant (Pali) practice is intent on enlightenment (nibbana, Pali). If you read the original Buddhist canon of literature, which is now available in English, you may find that the historic Buddha was a Bodhisatta (Bodhisattva, Sanskrit) who attained nibbana (nirvana, Sanskrit) and became a fully enlightened Arahant (arhat Sanskrit). Therefore he taught "Arahant practice." I have found there is a remarkable degree of misinformation prevalent within the Buddhist community (sangha). And, I believe its origin is in too many Buddhist teachers who do not read the teachings of the Historic Buddha, but rely too heavily on latter-day commentary and apocrypha for their beliefs and practices. The Pali Canon is reputed to be a record of the spoken word of the historic Buddha, Sidharta Gotama, who was a native speaker of the Pali language. The Pali Canon is at least the oldest extant document of the words of the Buddha in the language he spoke. It was first written during the reign of King Ashoka in 250 BCE. Therefore no other canon of Buddhist literature has a better claim of authenticity. It may also be worth pointing out that most of the other canons of Buddhist literature are based on first century CE Sanskrit translations of the original Pali canon. It is also worth noting that some of the other Buddhist canons have additions that can only be of questionable origin, since these additions are not in the original Pali canon. Reading the Pali canon is an excellent way to come to understand the central concepts of the teachings of the historic Buddha. It is available in many languages including English. While the canon has a reputation for being a weighty tome, I have found it is readable and accessible. Much of it is even online at the websites listed below. In defense of my position that Buddhism was originally an ecstatic contemplative tradition, do consider reading the suttas that outline the Buddha's original discourses on meditation. There you will find Sidharta Gotama specifically instructed his students in what he called the jhanas, or eight ecstatic states of absorption. It is these ecstatic states that I have arrived at, and which are listed in my personal statement. I have received a few generous offers to become someone's disciple. It might be worth pointing out, based on my years of practice and my subjective experiences, that I am really not seeking guidance. I am however interested in developing an international ecumenical dialog on and about the ecstatic experience and practice. I am also interested in developing a community of peers who honor, respect, and validate each other's subjective experiences. So, those who are interested in participating as peers in that venture, then please join the Jhana Support Group where that dialog is going on today.. Jhana Support Group A support group for ecstatic contemplatives website http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Jhanas/ Subscribe: Jhanas-subscribe@yahoogroups.com Best regards, Jeff Brooks The Buddha's three discourses on meditation and the ecstatic states (jhanas) are available in these suttas at these URLs: Anapanasati Sutta (MN 118) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjthis onea/mn118.html Maha-satipatthana Sutta (DN. 22) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/dn22.html Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn010b.html Do consider examining the Buddha's original teachings at the following websites: S O U R C E S for the Tipitaka, P A L I Canon &&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&& ACCESS TO INSIGHT http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/ The Tipitaka and other valuable Pali sources http://www.palikanon.com/english/english_web.htm The PALI TEXT SOCIETY http://www.palitext.demon.co.uk/ METTANET - LANKA http://www.metta.lk/ The various volumes of the Pali Canon in English translation and where they can be purchased, or downloaded off the web for free are at these URLs: Digha Nikaya, DN (The Long Discourses). Translation by Maurice Walshe. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS. 1996: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=251033 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/digha/index.html Majjhima Nikaya, MN (The Middle Length Discourses). Translation by Bhikkhu Nanamoli. Ed. Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom/Buddhist Publication Society BPS http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=25072X Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/index.html Samyutta Nikaya, SN (The Connected Discourses of the Buddha) Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi. Wisdom Publications. Or ATI www: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=948507 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/index.html Anguttara Nikaya, AN (The Numerical Discourses of the Buddha) Translation by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Nyanaponika Thera. Or ATI www: Altamira Press, 1997 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=204050 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.phtml?prod_id=132552 Thanissaro Bhikkhu' translations are at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/index.html 27194 From: nordwest Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Dear Sarah, I really find the word pure perfectly right. It ia an easy english word to use. What is this wholesome or unwholesome? What is this cittas and critters? - I am joking, as you may imagine. Please let me exaplin why "pure" is such a useful word, it arises from this understanding: Imagine the mind as a mirror in which reality is reflected. Like this you can understand how mind works. It is not seeing things directly, but contemplating things, or refecting upon things. Originally the mind was a Pure Mind, this means it refelcted without any thought this what is, and all that is, without limitations in space and time. This Pure Mind is nothing elese but Pure Consciousness which can't be located to a place or part of the universe. If we locate Buddhas etc. where they live, this is only a helpful means for the people who can't understand, that a Buddha is one with all that is, and his only limitations is the individual path of pureness of consciousness, this works in connection with the original bodhisattva vows, but not only. So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were all with one, Pure Minds. Then something interesting happened: we questioned one thought, "What is out side of this?" or "What is reality?" and from this thought we got captured by illusion, the mind limitated itself to an limited object, and was bound to live in a body in samsara, imprisoned by its own limitatins and wrong views. This thoughts made the mind impure. It was defiled, and the pure reflection of waht is, was obscured by thoughts. The longer we wandered in samsara, the more bad habits we created, to more defilements we accumulated, andnow we end up with a heap of ideas about a world we think was created by evolution. But volution is a creation of our mind, a complexation of this was is. The universe in it's original nature has no changed even a little bit. It is still the same, we are only dreaming evolutions and progress. Time to wake up from this waking dream. The more we become enlightened, the more the clouds (or dirt) which obscure the mind fade away... a gradula process of realizatins. There are innumerbale realizations, many levels! The Mind becomes original again by this, it becomes the Pure Mind, the Pure Consciousness again, but is still imprisoned by the idea that it is this very life, living in this universe with a earth and a moon and a sun, with telephones, and dinosaurs. We really believe this bullshit we created ourselves, excuse this word, but it really fits best. It's entierely bullshit, thisis what all science work is about. We cure diseases like cancer, because we have made it up by mind in the first place. So is HIV, so is the atomic bomb, and the flight to the moon. Dreams, nothing but dreams. Time to wake up. HOW!? The thinking has to stop! This is the simple formula to enlightenment. The gaol of the human existence is one only: to make the thinking stop, and return to the natural state of non-thinking, where everything is known, where the mind is pure and one with all that is. You don't have to become a hermit, you can do this right here. Look at your hand, contemplate it.. the fingers, the fingernails, the veins, the hair, the rippels and the form ... is this you? Do you really think, you are such a strange being, destined to die? When looking in the mirror, that you might have a big laugh, when you realize this dream. The entire world becomes a funny place, knowing that its all ade up by yourself. The power of thoughts? NO, the weakness of thoughts! The reality is something completely different, what you perceive is only a temporary state of reality and has nothing to do with this what is. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: So better not to use pure/impure because of all the connotations. We can say that for us, even when there are kusala cittas, there is still the potential and latent tendencies for akusala cittas. For the arahant, no more potential. Thanks for asking for clarification. I agree that what I wrote was easily misleading. Metta, Sarah p.s Thomas, any more comments? ===== 27195 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:41pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Azita, Where did you get the idea that "there is no 'me' to do anything anyway"? Where did you get the idea that any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' wanting, lobha again? I don't think the Buddha taught those ideas. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Hello Sukin and Victor, that there is no 'me' to do anything > anyway. Any attempt to have more understanding, is just 'me' > wanting, lobha again. [snip] 27196 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hi Thomas, Once one realizes the unbinding, the cessation of dukkha and becomes another arahant, the birth is the last birth and there is no more becoming for one. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Sarah, I really find the word pure perfectly right. It ia an [snip] > So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were [snip] 27197 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:56pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote at the end of his post: > > > > I think I've mostly explained my understanding just now to Michael, but > I'll add a couple more points. James: I read the post. Actually, I agree with you on this point…I know, that's probably a shocker! ;-)))(And I'm not sure if Michael's point isn't simply a semantic one). I do not believe that a person can develop any single part of the Eightfold Path to fruition, to nibbana, alone. All of them must be developed in tandem. Granted, they may not all be developed to the same degree, but there cannot be any deficiencies. Therefore, I agree with you, there is only one path. But remember, I wasn't explaining my position; I was explaining Buddhaghosa's. He is the one who wrote that each of those values, developed ALONE, will lead to nibbana. I don't agree with him. I think he has misinterpreted those suttas he quotes. Just because those suttas are emphasizing a single value, that doesn't mean that the others are excluded; they are still there, just unstated. If you have any disputes, it is with Buddhaghosa, not with me ;-). > ..... On the contrary, I understand that throughtout the Vism, Buddhaghosa is > referring to these wholesome mental factors as constituents of the Path. > Realities, not concepts. I don't find any conflict at all, but you're > welcome to elaborate further. Perhaps I don't understand what you mean by > `sovereign, independent concepts'. James: Actually, this is DK's argument, it isn't mine. It does appear to be valid, from what I have read so far, but I wouldn't go so far as to say I support it wholeheartedly. I was simply trying to rephrase it in a simplified manner. I guess I wasn't too successful. ;-). As soon as Michael quotes more from DK's chapter, we can look at this issue more (Nina wants Michael to quote less, but I I would actually like him to quote more…an argument of this sort cannot be well understood in piecemeal.) > > I think that the Vism is a very difficult text and we are bound to read it > according to our varied understandings. I assure you there is plenty in it > that I'd be at a complete loss to explain. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== Metta, James 27198 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hi, Thomas - In a message dated 11/20/03 6:42:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, tnordwest@y... writes: > So we have been Buddhas, each of us, very long time ago, we were all with > one, Pure Minds. Then something interesting happened: we questioned one > thought, "What is out side of this?" or "What is reality?" and from this thought we > got captured by illusion, the mind limitated itself to an limited object, > and was bound to live in a body in samsara, imprisoned by its own limitatins > and wrong views. ========================== Please forgive me, but I think you are very much in error in this. No Buddha ever became a worldling. The fall from grace is a Judeo-Christian story, not a Buddhist one. There is no beginning to ignorance, but there can be an ending. I think the position you are putting forward here is not Buddhist, neither Theravadin nor Mahayanist. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27199 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > Michael: > Sarah, I don't come from a Mahayana tradition, but I try to keep my eyes and > ears open and not hold on too tight to my views. There was a time when I > believed the Commentaries to be correct, that the Abhidhamma describes > paramatha dhammas and that they have svabhava. Now, in my humble opinion, > this is wrong view. I wish in my somewhat unskilful ways I can stirr some > doubts in the readers of this list. James: For what its worth, I agree with you. But, you're preaching to the choir in my case! ;-) > > Metta > Michael Metta, James 27200 From: Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 5:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis.37, misleading translation. Hi Nina, I think ~Nanamoli did the right thing by interpolating the first "of primary elements" from the second "of primary elements". It would suggest he was talking about two different "sensitives" (passada), otherwise, which he isn't. But I agree, what "of" or "dependent on" or "derived from" means is unestablished. As the subsequent debate shows, the nature of the relationship between primary elements and derived matter is unknown or at least not a relationship of corresponding distinctions (eg. fire/light). You mentioned in a previous email that rupa arises in a group of eight rupas. Would you explain that a little? Larry 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity [of primary elements] that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. 27201 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 7:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > Michael: > Tell me, the chair you are sitting on, or the table you have in front of > you, have you ever tried to find the "tableness" of that table? That elusive > quality that makes it be a table? And also if you separate the table into > its constituting parts, can you still find a table in those parts? Of course > not. So, the table only exists because of the supportive conditions, and due > to its parts, and of course also the fact that we gave it that name. So, can > you really tell me that the table exists? Where did it go when you took it > apart? > > Don't put words in my mouth, I never said the Abhidhamma is wrong. The > problems are in the commentaries which define the dhammas as ultimate > reality (paramatha) with an intrinsic essence (svabhava), or in other words > that they really exist. This is wrong view in accordance with the suttas. ========= Dear Michael, Very good you accept the Abhidhamma. I thought when you said it was only conventional that you meant you didn't follow it. But I see now that you feel the commentaries are wrong becuase they specify that the Abhidhamma is in fact explaining paramattha (ultimate ) dhammas. Whereas when the Buddha explained in Abhidhamma (or sutta ) dhammas such as feeling (vedana) these are are only conventional, in truth? Michael:"My contention is that the view that dhammas, as defined in the Abhidhamma & Visudhimagga, are real and ultimate, also is an eternalistic view. It attributes existence to something which is only another convention. The dhammas in the Abhidhamma are valid from a phenomenological point of view but have no real nature." And you feel the same about sutta teaching I quoted this sutta: Samyutta nikaya Khanda vagga XXII 94 (p.950 of Bodhi translation) "Rupa(matter, physical phenomena) that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change: this the wise in the world agree upon as existing, and I too say it exists. Feeling...perception..volitional formations..consciouness..that is impermanent, suffering and subject to change..I too say that it exists" endquote You said: "Now, referring to the sutta you posted, .... from the point of view of ultimate reality there is no world. The Buddha is talking in terms of conventional reality." So now could you clarify my earlier questions. I perfectly agree that there is no table in the ultimate sense as you lucidly expalin above. Does this also apply to the five khandas - feeling,( vedana) vinnana ect.? I repeat the question: So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? RobertK 27202 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:niddesas Hi Sarah, In my list of PTS Niddesa is not a Co, but part of the Khuddhaka Nikaya. There is the Mahaaniddesa and the Cuulaniddesa. I only have the first one , but in Thai. The Co to this is the Saddhammapaajotika. Interesting what you quote from your old post. Niddesa means explanation. It explains indeed questions we find in the Sutta Nipata. It has very good texts on old age etc. I enjoy it very much. Added to each part in my Thai edition is the commentary to it, thus from the Saddhammapaajotika In the Kaamasutta niddesa it gives the meanings of aayatana, citta is aayatana. Nina. op 20-11-2003 07:12 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > Before I made reference to the passage (Vism V111,39) about ‘Life, person, > pleasure, pain - just these alone Join in one conscious moment.....’ and > gave the Niddesa ref. > > James commented, rightly, that it isn’t a sutta, but a commentary. This is > correct. However, I believe the Niddesa, along with the Sutta Nipata has > always been part of the Khuddaka Nikaya and is generally attributed to > Sariputta (and sometimes MahaKaccayana as well). 27203 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: In search of .....Sinhala commentaries Dear Sarah, I have another wheel: 100, Buddhism in Ceylon, by H.R. Perera. Th old Co Buddhaghosa used were the three wellknown of Mahaa-Atthakata, Mahaa-paccari A. and Kurundi A. Also: Sankhepatthakatha, Vinayatthakata, Abidhammatthakatha and the separate co on the four Aagamas or Nikaayas. References are also found to numerous other sources like the Andhakatthakatha, the Aacariyaa or Teachers and the Poraana, or ancient masters.The old Sinhalese co. went out of vogue, the author says and were lost after the tenth century. Nina. op 20-11-2003 09:45 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I imagine they were less and less used. It reminds me of Jim’s search for > the early Pali grammars. 27204 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 10:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Sarah, > ......... > There was a time when I > believed the Commentaries to be correct, that the Abhidhamma describes > paramatha dhammas and that they have svabhava. Now, in my humble opinion, > this is wrong view. I wish in my somewhat unskilful ways I can stirr some > doubts in the readers of this list. Hi Michael, Reading the Mahacattarika-sutta where it asks, "And what is wrong understanding," I tend to think it specifically refers to wrong understanding 'of the Buddha's teaching.' That is, wrong understanding that has arisen in the minds of worldlings who have heard the Dhamma and have jumped to certain wrong conclusions. (This could be a mistaken interpretation but bear with me for a while). The sutta continues: "To hold the view that there is no result from generosity, . ." Do you see what I mean? The Buddha taught generosity (dana), along with sila and bhavana and we worldlings know that he taught it. But we also know that he taught anicca, dukkha and anatta and so we might draw wrong conclusions: we might think that acts of dana do not ultimately exist -- that they have no essence, no real power or effectiveness. In that way, we also think there is: " . . no fruit or ripening of deeds well done or ill done, . . ." That is, we think that kusala and akusala kamma are not ultimately existent and, therefore, can't really condition vipaka. The Buddha did encourage kusala kamma and warn against akusala kamma but we could wrongly assume that he did so purely by way of metaphor and that, ultimately, these things are mere, ineffectual, figments of our imagination. " . . that this world does not really exist, that no other world really exists, that there is no benefit from mother and father, that there are no beings arising in other worlds without the instrumentality of parents, that there are not existing those who have realised by their own superknowledge both this world and a world beyond and who are living rightly following the right course." The Buddha taught that concepts (of worlds, living beings, chariots, buddhas, samsara, escape from samsara) are mere conventional designations. Worldlings mistake them for reality but the Buddha used them simply for communication. But again, it is wrong understanding to hold that, since concepts don't ultimately exist, then nothing ultimately exists. The sutta then describes 'right' understanding that 'has blemishes and so ripens to clinging.' I think this means intellectual understanding of nama and rupa. Intellectually, we know that, when the Buddha said 'living being,' he actually referred to various nama and rupa; when he said chariot, he actually referred to various rupa and so on. In this way, we know that the world and its contents really do exist -- all dhammas have their own distinctive, intrinsic characteristics. Then: "There is the perfect right understanding that goes beyond this, that has no blemishes, that has wisdom, the faculty of intellect, the component of enlightenment, that is investigation into things and is free from thoughts of self. This is perfect right understanding." This is no mere intellectual understanding of a reality; it is panna, the realisation of a reality. We all hope to have panna but it won't come until the required conditions are present. Right intellectual understanding is one such condition. We need to understand that panna directly experiences the absolutely existent, intrinsic essence, nature, characteristic, sabhava -- call it what you will -- of a paramattha dhamma. I hope this makes sense and, also, that it converts you back to your previous, commentarially-consistent, point of view. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27205 From: Star Kid Date: Thu Nov 20, 2003 11:48pm Subject: Buddhism Hi James, Thank you for answering my questions.You told me that there were no gods in Theravada Buddhism, so... when you're praying who are you communicating to? In what way do the Buddhists think the world started? Will recarnation ever end? By the way, how do we feel when we're being recarnated? Thanks again, for the answers. Metta, Hilary 27206 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi Howard Sorry not being clear enough in my earlier post. Memory A has first to be an object of citta A before it conditioned as an object for citta B. That is how continuity of object like feelings is being felt and it seem to look like an "eternalistic" view. However, I like to stress that such conditions are impermanent, subject to decay and not eternalistic. Once memory A pass its information into B, it will cease to exist. This stream of passing will end once another citta is being disturb and took on another object. I hope this clarify that it is not an eternalistic view. kind rgds Ken O > ======================== > With no offence intended, this strikes me as nonsense. > Perhaps a > memory of A could be object for B, but not A itself, for at the > time of B, THERE IS > no A. One cannot observe what does not exist. The thinking that > dhammas > continue to exist in some manner throughout time is a > substantialist "heresy" of > the Sarvastivadins. > > With metta, > Howard > 27207 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken H. (Michael) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: We need to understand that panna > directly experiences the absolutely existent, intrinsic > essence, nature, characteristic, sabhava -- call it what > you will -- of a paramattha dhamma. > > I hope this makes sense and, also, that it converts you > back to your previous, commentarially-consistent, point > of view. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H You have taken a one-sided view of this sutta. Yes, the Buddha taught that it is wrong view to think that nothing exists, but he also taught that it is wrong view to think that everything exists. Existence or non-existence is beyond the scope of Buddhism and it isn't something that the Buddha taught. Knowing if things exist or don't exist doesn't lead to nibbana. In support allow me to quote the Lokayatika Sutta: Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist [1] went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, then, Master Gotama, does everything [2] exist?" "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Oneness?" "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." "Then is everything a Manyness?" "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&- form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media. From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling. From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress & suffering." "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! Just as if he were to place upright what was overturned, to reveal what was hidden, to show the way to one who was lost, or to carry a lamp into the dark so that those with eyes could see forms, in the same way has Master Gotama -- through many lines of reasoning -- made the Dhamma clear. I go to Master Gotama for refuge, to the Dhamma, and to the Sangha of monks. May Master Gotama remember me as a lay follower who has gone to him for refuge, from this day forward, for life." Metta, James 27208 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:41am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hello Victor, I have a sneaking suspicion you are testing me, but never mind. I have this view bc I believe the Buddha did teach these views. From SN 35:90. ' One should not imagine oneself to be identical with the eye, or contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner of it. One should not imagine oneself to be identical with the ear, nose, tongue, body, mind, or with mind-object, mind-consciousness, mind-impression, with the agreeable, disagreeable, and indifferent feeling due to mind-impression; one should not imagine oneself to be contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner of it. One should not imagine oneself to be identical with the whole world, or contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner of it..... Thus, free from imagining, one clings no more to anything in the world. Clinging no more, one is no more agitated. Being no more agitated, one reaches in one's own person the cessation of all vanity [ Nibbana ], and one understands: "Rebirth has ceased, the holy life is fulfilled, the task is done, and nothing further remains after this." ' From SN 35:85. '"Empty is the world! Empty is the world!" thus it is said, Venerable ONe. But why, Venerable One, is the world called empty?' Because, Ananda, the world is empty of a self and of anything belonging to a self, therefore the world is called empty. Empty, indeed, of a self or of something belonging to a self are eye, visible form, eye-consciousness, etc. Thus, Ananda, bc all things are empty of a self and of anything belonging to a self, the world is called empty.' --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Azita, > > Where did you get the idea that "there is no 'me' to do anything > anyway"? > > Where did you get the idea that any attempt to have more > understanding, is just 'me' wanting, lobha again? > Because if I don't know for sure, that it is right understanding, then there is a pretty fat chance that it is akusula - IMO. > I don't think the Buddha taught those ideas. > I don't agree with you, I think the Buddha did teach these ideas. > Peace, > Victor Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 27209 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:55am Subject: Re: Buddhism --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > Thank you for answering my questions.You told me that > there were no gods in Theravada Buddhism, so... when > you're praying who are you communicating to? > > In what way do the Buddhists think the world started? > Will recarnation ever end? By the way, how do we feel > when we're being recarnated? > > Thanks again, for the answers. > > > > Metta, > > > Hilary > Hi Star Kid Hilary! Well, you have some very good questions for me again. Let me get to answering them: Question: You told me that there were no gods in Theravada Buddhism, so... when you're praying who are you communicating to? Answer: I don't really `pray'. Praying does suggest that I am communicating with someone, but I don't really do that. I do chant, which is more like a personal reminder of the Buddha's teachings; and I do take vows, which is more like a personal promise to follow the Buddha's teachings. `Praying' can be defined in different ways in different religions. Question: In what way do the Buddhists think the world started? Answer: The Buddha taught that the universe goes through periods of expansion and contraction. These periods are called eons (kalpas). During a kalpa, the universe comes into being, exists, is destroyed, and then there is a period of emptiness*. Then it all starts again. Buddhist scholars have explained the length of time of a kalpa with a metaphor: rub a one-mile cube of rock once every hundred years with a piece of silk, until the rock is worn away -- and a kalpa still hasn't passed! That is a very loooooonnnnnnggggg time! ;-) Question: Will recarnation ever end? Answer: No. The only way to make rebirth end is to become enlightened. Otherwise, an individual will continue to be reborn for eon after eon. Question: By the way, how do we feel when we're being recarnated? Answer: According to Tibetan Buddhism, and practically all studies of near-death-experiences, there will be a traveling down a tunnel, without a body of any sort, and then arriving at open space. There will be bright lights (or one bright light) and soft lights. The soft lights are attractive and make you feel secure, while the bright light is frightening. There will be a focusing or merging with the soft light, a period of unconsciousness, and then rebirth. If one is able to focus on and merge with the bright light, which is supposed to be where the remnants of the ego are burning away, then there won't be a rebirth. According to Tibetan Buddhism, this is nearly impossible to do without assistance from higher beings. It is best just to practice Buddhism during one's lifetime, rather than trying to slip out the back door at the last minute. ;-) I hope this answers your questions. If you have anymore questions, don't hesitate to ask. Take care and study hard in school. Metta, James *My use of the words 'exists' and 'emptiness' are not to be taken as reality. They are only conventional descriptions. In reality, there may not be any difference between 'existence' and 'emptiness'. It isn't important anyway and not worthy of conjecture. 27210 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Victor and All, Thanks for responding. I will go directly to a part of your post. You said: > From what I read about Abhidhamma Pitaka, my impression is that the > content of Abhidhamma Pitaka is mainly of an elaborate taxonomy and > theory about mental phenomena. To me, it is not much different from > a taxonomy in biology in its nature, except the objects the its > classification. I thus tend to see the Abhidhamma Pitaka as a > result of scholastic pursuit, intentionlly or unintentionally. Victor, I think it is quite natural that we all `judge', the habit is quite strong I think, in most of us. I also think that we cling most strongly to our particular view of reality and that each time we make a judgement, the conclusions being a product of those views, are clung to and reinforce those views we have. I guess this is part of what makes us puthujanas as distinct from ariyans. The ariyans does not seek confirmation, he has seen it and there is no more doubt. It is good to discuss and I am happy that you remain here on DSG, even though you don't believe in the Abhidhamma. But I like to think that you do not totally reject it, and I still hope that you will one day change your mind about it. ;-) As you know, my own interest in Abhidhamma is more inclined towards understanding and not so much on `remembering' the theory. This understanding also gives me a clearer view of what `practice' is. This practicality however, does not involve a decision to practice, and I do not exclude `intellectual understanding' from being part of the practice. And this I believe is a result of understanding about anatta and conditionality. Had I not accepted on this level, that there is no `I' standing apart from `impersonal conditions' performing their functions `now', so in the past and will be in the future, it might have been hard for me to see this connection between pariyatti and patipatti. Or even to understand what pariyatti really means. But even though I do not myself stress on what you refer to as the "elaborate taxonomy and theory about mental phenomena", seeing that I can't go beyond my own reach, for the same reason as above, I feel that this very elaborate system *can* be the basis for pariyatti and consequently, patipatti for many who do have the panna developed enough. Even the most basic and simplified version of Abhidhamma would have put me completely off a few years ago, and I would have come to more or less similar conclusion as you have. But now, having seen the value of even the little Abhidhamma that I have read, I can see how certain people could really benefit from the more elaborate classifications. > To me, the "flavor" or "taste" of the content of the Abhidhamma > Pitaka is different from that of the content in the discourses and > the code of discipline, whereas "this Dhamma and Discipline has one > taste, the taste of liberation."* And there are people on this list who say that all three Pitakas have the same taste, and I believe them. ;-) > I would say my knowledge in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is superficial. > On the other hand, I have not read all the discourses and remembered > all the code of discipline. But as the question James posed: > > Does a person need to drink the whole ocean to know that it tastes > salty? > ** > > I don't think so. I will not ask you to read the whole Tipitaka before making a judgement. In and of itself, this means nothing. Reading is not the point; the understanding is the key, in which case, a sip can be fair indication of what the whole ocean tastes like. But *Moha* and *Ditthi* are our real enemy, and moha for most of us, exists now before, in the middle of and after we have read the whole of the Tipitaka. And any conclusion we make from moha and ditthi is not very reliable, is it not? So I will not ask you to read first, because at which point should I then expect sati to replace moha and panna to replace ditthi? And if you read it ritualistically, who knows, maybe you will end up like DK! :-) The Buddha's teaching as you would agree, is about what goes on in this moment. It is not for philosophizing, observing it in a vacuum. When a person fails to see Buddhadhamma from the stand point of what happens in experience, it is natural that not only doubts will arise, but speculation also thrives. We posit imaginary problems and come up with equally imaginary solutions and theories. Satipatthana is the only way out of our constant being caught in silly conjectures. Scholars may mean well, but if they do not have the panna to know what is really going on within their own minds, they deceive not only others, but their own selves too. This leads me to the importance of developing the Parami. Victor, even though this list seems to stress so much on panna, you will have noticed that Nina for example, has often stressed the importance of developing all the paramis. I too would sincerely like to hear more and more about it. So no one is being drawn in by dry theory, the development of all kinds of kusala is very much encouraged, perhaps with the exception of jhana. This I believe, is because of the understanding not of any insignificance, but rather the exaltedness of it, which through sound reasoning give rise to the conclusion of how difficult and therefore unlikely it is to *get it right*. Besides there are so many dangers from getting it wrong. However, like I said before, the idea that we can consciously develop any kind of mental state is not one that I hold. To *do*, for me, is so much dukkha! And it goes against not only `my theory', but I do get an impression, though vague, the citta is not kusala at those times. And when they do arise by conditions, the flavor is different! This is already too long, and I have to go. So will end here awaiting your response. Thanks for your Sutta reference, as always Metta, Sukin 27211 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:08am Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 02 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, In the previous post ( msg 19239 ),4 sets of Cetasikas had been described.In this post,let's go into some detail about the permanent ministers ( Sabbacittasadarana Cetasikas ). There are 7 of them. 1. Phassa Cetasika It introduces Arammana ( object ) and Citta. It meets them. When an iron rod is struck against another iron rod, there will appear sparks. The first rod is Pasada Rupa or sense organ, the second is Arammana or object and the act of touching is Phassa. Sparks arise. Spark is Citta. Sparks arise at the same time of touching. So do Citta and Phassa. 2. Vedana Cetasika It feels the arammana and makes citta feels as well. Each citta arised has its own Vedana Cetasika. Cittas are named according to their accompanying Vedana cetasika in terms of Vedanasanghaha, like Somanassa Cittas, Domanassa Cittas, Dukkha Citta, Sukkha Citta and Upekkha Cittas. 3. Cetana Cetasika It drives citta. It urges to do, pushes forward Citta. It reminds Citta. Cetana also drives other cetasikas to do their business. It is Cetana who creates Kamma when they accompanied Javanacittas. It is volition. It acts voluntarily. So any action will have Kamma effect except those Cittas of Vipaka ( resultants ) and Kiriya ( Arahats' Javana Cittas ) 4. Sanna Cetasika It memorises and it recalls. It registers the object. It perceives the object. It reports the memories to Citta. This can be learn in case of people with Jatissara-nana ( reincarnated people who know the previous lives events_actually the brain in this life and ones in previous lives are never related_Science view).In these matters Sanna works and memories are carried over from Citta to Citta but subconsciously. 5. Ekagatta Cetasika It fixes citta to an Arammana.It controls Citta not to spread to other Arammanas and it calms down Citta and accompanting Cetasikas. It tranquillizes all mental bodies of Citta and Cetasikas. See in the post named '' Ekagatta, Samadhi, Jhana & Concentration''. 6. Jivitindriya Cetasika It supports Citta and other accompanying Cetasikas as caterer or supplier or supporter and it functions as life and makes all Namadhammas alive. It makes all mental bodies in their activity. So in the presence of this Jivitindriya Cetasika all Cetasikas that accompanied it and Citta are active and alive. Without it there is no possibility of Citta to arise. 7. Manasikara Cetasika It directs citta to Arammana.It steers Citta and its allied Cetasikas not to deviate to any other directions. It functions as supplying a straight way. The way we think the Arammana is directed by Manasikara. '' Yonisomanasikara '' good insight makes good things. It is something like attention. It may be assume as attending mind. All these 7 Cetasikas always accompany any citta. They all design the Citta with which they arise together. They all help the Citta while they all are arising at the same time of arising of that Citta. May you all have a clearer view on this post. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27212 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:13am Subject: Reply to James Jimbo: Thank you for your letter, and thank you for your good words and compliments. I am also quite happy at this report, but I must not forget everything else. Anyway, there are a few questions waiting for you: 1. Is there someone who is the chief monk in each Buddhist temple, such as the Grand Abbott, Grand father, Grand piano? 2.How do I deal with mean students? Beat them up? How can I get more friends? 3. Any other advice you have for me? Please reply Philip Chui 27213 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 5:14am Subject: Pali and monk questions Dear James, I hope you are keeping well! Well, thank you for answering my questions and here are my new ones: 1:How is the language Pali like? Do anyone in the world speak it today? 2:Where do most Buddhist monks live? ( I mean as in the type of shelter they live in) 3:Are there special rules that Buddhist monks have to obey which are different from normal people? That's all! Metta, Janice 27214 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Ken - Ahh, okay, thanks. So what is being discussed are propagated memories (a series of falling away and newly arisen memories). With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/21/03 3:20:04 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > Sorry not being clear enough in my earlier post. > > Memory A has first to be an object of citta A before it conditioned > as an object for citta B. That is how continuity of object like > feelings is being felt and it seem to look like an "eternalistic" > view. However, I like to stress that such conditions are > impermanent, subject to decay and not eternalistic. Once memory A > pass its information into B, it will cease to exist. This stream of > passing will end once another citta is being disturb and took on > another object. I hope this clarify that it is not an eternalistic > view. > > kind rgds > Ken O > > > > >======================== > > With no offence intended, this strikes me as nonsense. > >Perhaps a > >memory of A could be object for B, but not A itself, for at the > >time of B, THERE IS > >no A. One cannot observe what does not exist. The thinking that > >dhammas > >continue to exist in some manner throughout time is a > >substantialist "heresy" of > >the Sarvastivadins. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27215 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi, Azita - In a message dated 11/21/03 6:42:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > From SN 35:90. ' One should not imagine oneself to be identical > with the eye, or contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner > of it. One should not imagine oneself to be identical with the ear, > nose, tongue, body, mind, or with mind-object, mind-consciousness, > mind-impression, with the agreeable, disagreeable, and indifferent > feeling due to mind-impression; one should not imagine oneself to be > contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner of it. > One should not imagine oneself to be identical with the whole > world, or contained in it, or independent of it, or the owner of > it..... > Thus, free from imagining, one clings no more to anything in the > world. Clinging no more, one is no more agitated. Being no more > agitated, one reaches in one's own person the cessation of all vanity > [ Nibbana ], and one understands: "Rebirth has ceased, the holy life > is fulfilled, the task is done, and nothing further remains after > this." ' > > From SN 35:85. '"Empty is the world! Empty is the world!" thus > it is said, Venerable ONe. But why, Venerable One, is the world > called empty?' > Because, Ananda, the world is empty of a self and of anything > belonging to a self, therefore the world is called empty. > Empty, indeed, of a self or of something belonging to a self > are eye, visible form, eye-consciousness, etc. Thus, Ananda, bc > all things are empty of a self and of anything belonging to a self, > the world is called empty.' > > ================================ These are wonderful quotes, Azita. I love them! I also think that Victor's position is in perfect harmony with them. BTW, "the world" is the five khandhas. All that is pointed to here can be directly discerned with right practice, and the direct knowing of all this is freeing. (The second quote, however, I must admit, comes quite *close* to explicity asserting the nonexistence of a self, but, on careful inspection, it only says that all elements of all khandhas are empty of self, that is - they are not me or mine.) An important point, I think, is that the Buddha taught not in order to inculcate positions, but to plant seeds that will sprout in liberation. The Buddha was a supreme technician, and a supreme physician, who provided just the appropriate technology and and just the right medicine to cure our illness. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27216 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:30am Subject: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Dhamma Friends, We have been born. We were born and have lived our lives till right now. In the interim when we were born and when we are now is a dimension of time. Who was born in 1903 will have lived 100 years and in 2003 just now will have lived just hours. Since we have been born, we actually are ready to die at any time. This is not to dispute in any way as it is quite clear to see the matter to its deepest level. As we are ready, death is also ready to come. But what is not sure is when he will come. If this matter is always remembered, there is nothing to attach to life-related sensual things. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. Minutes are being eaten away making hours which again are poured into days, months, years and so on. We should always remember that death is coming. Actually he is coming now. This makes us a kind of meditation called Maranaanussati Kammatthana. This may well form the basis for higher knowledge. There is no thought apart from thought of death. Hindrances stop. Mind becomes clean. It becomes tranquilized and well calm. As mind is calm enough, thinking becomes effective and productive. Death by convention is when breathing, circulation, consciousness and all body functions stop. But if penetrative wisdom arises, it will see that Death is coming all the time. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. We are being dead tick by tick. No one can stop that tick-tack tick-tack. That tick and tack are sign of death. It is not permanent. It is Anicca. We see. Seeing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We hear. Hearing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We smell. Smelling stop. We think. Thinking stop. We taste. Tasting stop. We think. Thinking stop. We touch. Touching stop. We think. thinking stop. Death clock is running all the time tick-tack tick-tack. May you all recognize Anicca here, there, around and about With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27217 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Christine, The 3 kinds of true knowledge are the recollection of past lives, kamma and the destruction of the taints. There are many suttas that refer to this. Just to mention one - Culahatthipadopama Sutta (MN 27). Metta Michael >From: "christine_forsyth" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael >Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 20:35:13 -0000 > >Hello Michael,and all, > >I am interestedly reading your exchanges with other members. I may >be being particularly dense this morning (6.30 a.m. Brisbane time >now) but can you tell me about the three kinds of true knowledge and >give me a reference please? > >metta and peace, >Christine >---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the >three > > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, >there is > > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds >of > > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true >realization of > > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other >2 kinds > > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? > > > > > > Metta > > Michael 27218 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Azita, Azita: Are you saying that they [paramatta dhammas] do not exist? If I've misinterperated you, forgive me, bc I'm unclear as to what you are suggesting. Michael: It is interesting that when it comes to a person it is not so hard to accept that he/she doe not have a self. Has no intrinsic nature, no essence, is anatta and anicca – no self and impermanent. But when it comes to dhammas, the idea that they also have no intrinsic nature is so hard to accept. Our mind has a very hard time in getting rid of the idea that something has an essence, something we can grab on and say ‘Oh! At last this really exists, I can feel safe now. My self does not exist but my dhammas are real.’ Everything is utterly empty, has no abiding essence. The same logic that applies to a person also applies to dhammas. Metta Michael 27219 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello RobertK RiobertK, I repeat the question: So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true sense, there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at all? Michael: In conventional sense all those things exist. In ultimate sense they are empty, no abiding essence, not real. So, one can say they exist and also can say they don’t exist. Both are right, provided the correct provisos are included. Conventional reality is important, thats were we live until liberation. But we have to understand where we live to curb ignorance. Metta Michael 27220 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Dear Howard, How can one be aware of one object? Each citta can have only one object through one doorway at a time. You also find that reasonable. Before you spoke about citta with dislike and the unpleasant feeling like background music being present. A good simile. The feeling can be so annoying, going on and on. To make it even more complicated: there are also bodily reactions, like hardness in the chest and the experience of it, tactile consciousness. Many different realities. It seems they appear all at the same time, but only one can be noticed at a time. All these realities arise and fall away extremely fast but since we do not realize their falling away they seem to last, and they seem to appear at the same time. Your question is: 1. how can we be aware of what has fallen away, and I remember this was also an issue before. 2. And how can one dhamma be singled out as an object since they arise and fall away together? 1. Since that dhamma has only just fallen away it is still reckoned as the present moment. When you think: I experience unpleasant feeling, that feeling has fallen away, but it seems that it is still there. It has just fallen away. Its characteristic can be studied, that is, can be object of understanding. Nyanaponika, Abh Studies, in the Ch on the present explains about momentary present, a single moment of citta, and the serial present, concerning 2 or 3 processes. For all practical purposes, the dhamma that is the object of citta is still present. 2. Here we touch on conditions as stressed by Ken O. This is not a safety hatch, we are not explaining difficult questions away with the word conditions. Conditions are very complicated and there are many of them. One of the cetasikas accompanying citta may be very prominent and strong. This is one of the conditions. Years ago I asked A. Sujin how I could discern aversion, dosa, and unpleasant feeling. She usually answers:. In other words, there are different characteristics appearing and when we start to define, life becomes very complicated. We only reason and think and the truth will not be directly known. It is also useful to know that the first stage of insight is knowing by direct experience the difference between nama and rupa. Some dhammas in our life know or experience, other dhammas do not know or experience anything. Before that stage it is difficult to have a clear, thorough understanding of different namas such as dosa and unpleasant feeling, to realize that they have each their own distinct nature: sabhava again! By the way, as James said, misunderstandings of this term may be only semantical. When it is translated as essential property, I understand that Michael thinks of essentialism. Your example below: it shows that there are many different dhammas arising and falling away. Only when there is mindfulness of one of them at a time (no selection!) understanding of them can be developed. Nina. op 20-11-2003 14:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Typically, when remembering a pleasant event, for example, the > current feeling is pleasantness, though other conditions such as regret might > elicit sadness instead. This opposite feeling of sadness, however, is probably > not > in effect during the remembering, but afterwards. It seems likely to me that > the memory of a pleasant experience is always pleasant, but it may be followed > by regret at the thought of having found it pleasant, and that state of > regret would be unpleasant.) 27221 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi Larry, op 21-11-2003 02:21 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > You mentioned in a previous email that rupa arises in a group of eight > rupas. Would you explain that a little? N: Rupas arise in groups of eight or more rupas. There are the eight inseparable rupas: the four primaries and in addition: colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. This is also called the pure octad (Vis. XVIII,4, for different groups). Groups can be produced by four different factors: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Those produced by kamma always have in addition to the eight: the life faculty, thus this is a nonad. Eyesense is produced by kamma: it is in a group of nine other rupas: it is a decad, the eye-decad. We have to remember that these are not theory. Remember the list of rupas Icaro gave while he was packing for bootcamp. So real all the time in daily life! Just now he was dashing in and out to Los Gerlos airbase reminding us of the difference between samutti sacca, conventional truth and paramattha sacca, ultimate truth. A wonderful early morning reminder for me. The eye of the flesh: conventional truth. The eyedecad: ultimate truth. I shall go to the photo section and look at his Jungle survival. When we look at a photo of ourselves, or in the looking glass, it is not me. Touch it: hardness, and through the eyes only colour. Many different rupas. It is the same in real life. We think of many stories on account of what is seen, just thinking. Nina. 27222 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hello Thomas, Thomas: Originally the mind was a Pure Mind.. Michael: Tell me then how can something pure become impure? It is impossible, if it is pure it cannot become impure. Thomas: HOW!? The thinking has to stop! This is the simple formula to enlightenment. Michael: So, it means that non-conceptual states like fainting, sleeping, and so forth are enlightenment? Metta Michael 27223 From: Larry Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:26am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Michael: "The same logic that applies to a person also applies to dhammas." Hi Michael & Azita, I haven't been following this thread so I may be going over old stuff, but I think abhidhamma would disagree with this statement. Abhidhamma would say a person is a concept while a feeling, for example, is a reality. A feeling arises and ceases as an experience but a person is a general notion that has to be defined. "Intrinsic nature" might be a debatable translation for sabhava. I think I would prefer something like "distinct arising". All dhammas are distinct in being objects of consciousness but two kinds, technically, don't arise, i.e., concepts and nibbana. Both of these arise and cease as objects because consciousness arises and ceases but for different reasons they don't arise as a dhamma. Nibbana, I guess, can be experienced, so it is classed with the "ultimate dhammas". In a certain way concepts cannot be experienced, even though they are objects of consciousness; so they are classed as conventional dhammas. What exactly a general concept is is as much a mystery as what nibbana is. To my mind, no one has been able to sort out concept very satisfactorily, including Nagarjuna and his commentators. But it's fun to try. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Azita, > > Azita: > Are you saying that they [paramatta dhammas] do not exist? If > I've misinterpreted you, forgive me, bc I'm unclear as to what you > are suggesting. > > Michael: > It is interesting that when it comes to a person it is not so hard to accept > that he/she doe not have a self. Has no intrinsic nature, no essence, is > anatta and anicca – no self and impermanent. But when it comes to dhammas, > the idea that they also have no intrinsic nature is so hard to accept. Our > mind has a very hard time in getting rid of the idea that something has an > essence, something we can grab on and say `Oh! At last this really exists, I > can feel safe now. My self does not exist but my dhammas are real.' > Everything is utterly empty, has no abiding essence. The same logic that > applies to a person also applies to dhammas. > > Metta > Michael > 27224 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 0:28pm Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Htoo Naing, and All, Thank you Htoo Naing for this reminder. I work in an acute hospital, and I see dead and dying people daily, as do most staff of most hospitals. One would think this would be a reminder to urgently reflect on and practise the Dhamma - but it is no more effective than if I worked in a bakery. Perhaps more ineffective. The Self is a marvellous 'Adjuster' - and in order to protect 'itself', it attempts to make the fact of death just a background 'noise' - like the Christmas Carols in department stores at this time. It happens to others, never to me and mine. Though one still feels compassion for the dead, the dying and their relatives the awe and shock of experiencing that first 'other one' dying diminishes with each experience, until only those deaths with special pathos, like the death of a baby or child, or the death of someone whose age and life's circumstances are almost exactily like mine, gets through the self-protective armour of the illusion of the eternal, always going to be like this, Now. I add the signature line under my name for my own daily benefit - in the hope that I can break through my own complacency, and encourage my own urgent reflection on the fragility of this rare human existence. metta and peace, Christine Forsyth ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Htoo Naing wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > We have been born. We were born and have lived our lives till right now. In the interim when we were born and when we are now is a dimension of time. Who was born in 1903 will have lived 100 years and in 2003 just now will have lived just hours. > > Since we have been born, we actually are ready to die at any time. This is not to dispute in any way as it is quite clear to see the matter to its deepest level. As we are ready, death is also ready to come. But what is not sure is when he will come. > > If this matter is always remembered, there is nothing to attach to life-related sensual things. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. Minutes are being eaten away making hours which again are poured into days, months, years and so on. > > We should always remember that death is coming. Actually he is coming now. This makes us a kind of meditation called Maranaanussati Kammatthana. This may well form the basis for higher knowledge. > > There is no thought apart from thought of death. Hindrances stop. Mind becomes clean. It becomes tranquilized and well calm. As mind is calm enough, thinking becomes effective and productive. > > Death by convention is when breathing, circulation, consciousness and all body functions stop. But if penetrative wisdom arises, it will see that Death is coming all the time. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. > > We are being dead tick by tick. No one can stop that tick-tack tick- tack. That tick and tack are sign of death. It is not permanent. It is Anicca. We see. Seeing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We hear. Hearing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We smell. Smelling stop. We think. Thinking stop. We taste. Tasting stop. We think. Thinking stop. We touch. Touching stop. We think. thinking stop. > > Death clock is running all the time tick-tack tick-tack. > > May you all recognize Anicca here, there, around and about > > With Unlimited Metta, > > Htoo Naing 27225 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 one object Hi, Nina - Thank you for the detailed reply copied below. It seems to me that the gist of what you are saying with regard to the main matter being discussed is that cetasikas are discerned not when they occur, simultaneous with the discernment of some object, but afterwards as the object of subsequent cittas. This strikes me as odd. I'm not saying it's not so - I have no way of knowing at my stage of development - but just that this is odd. One wonders (at least *this* one does! ;-) why cetasikas are called concomitants, since they are supposedly never observed at the same time, and also how it is that it can be known that a cetasika, currently experienced, actually *previously* occurred! With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/21/03 2:10:55 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Dear Howard, > How can one be aware of one object? Each citta can have only one object > through one doorway at a time. You also find that reasonable. Before you > spoke about citta with dislike and the unpleasant feeling like background > music being present. A good simile. The feeling can be so annoying, going on > and on. To make it even more complicated: there are also bodily reactions, > like hardness in the chest and the experience of it, tactile consciousness. > Many different realities. It seems they appear all at the same time, but > only one can be noticed at a time. All these realities arise and fall away > extremely fast but since we do not realize their falling away they seem to > last, and they seem to appear at the same time. > Your question is: 1. how can we be aware of what has fallen away, and I > remember this was also an issue before. > 2. And how can one dhamma be singled out as an object since they arise and > fall away together? > 1. Since that dhamma has only just fallen away it is still reckoned as the > present moment. When you think: I experience unpleasant feeling, that > feeling has fallen away, but it seems that it is still there. It has just > fallen away. Its characteristic can be studied, that is, can be object of > understanding. > Nyanaponika, Abh Studies, in the Ch on the present explains about momentary > present, a single moment of citta, and the serial present, concerning 2 or 3 > processes. For all practical purposes, the dhamma that is the object of > citta is still present. > 2. Here we touch on conditions as stressed by Ken O. This is not a safety > hatch, we are not explaining difficult questions away with the word > conditions. Conditions are very complicated and there are many of them. One > of the cetasikas accompanying citta may be very prominent and strong. This > is one of the conditions. > Years ago I asked A. Sujin how I could discern aversion, dosa, and > unpleasant feeling. She usually answers:. In other > words, there are different characteristics appearing and when we start to > define, life becomes very complicated. We only reason and think and the > truth will not be directly known. It is also useful to know that the first > stage of insight is knowing by direct experience the difference between nama > and rupa. Some dhammas in our life know or experience, other dhammas do not > know or experience anything. Before that stage it is difficult to have a > clear, thorough understanding of different namas such as dosa and unpleasant > feeling, to realize that they have each their own distinct nature: sabhava > again! By the way, as James said, misunderstandings of this term may be only > semantical. When it is translated as essential property, I understand that > Michael thinks of essentialism. > Your example below: it shows that there are many different dhammas arising > and falling away. Only when there is mindfulness of one of them at a time > (no selection!) understanding of them can be developed. > Nina. > op 20-11-2003 14:38 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Typically, when remembering a pleasant event, for example, the > >current feeling is pleasantness, though other conditions such as regret > might > >elicit sadness instead. This opposite feeling of sadness, however, is > probably > >not > >in effect during the remembering, but afterwards. It seems likely to me > that > >the memory of a pleasant experience is always pleasant, but it may be > followed > >by regret at the thought of having found it pleasant, and that state of > >regret would be unpleasant.) > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27226 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas N: Rupas arise in groups of eight or more rupas. There are the eight inseparable rupas: the four primaries and in addition: colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. This is also called the pure octad (Vis. XVIII,4, for different groups). Groups can be produced by four different factors: kamma, citta, temperature and nutrition. Those produced by kamma always have in addition to the eight: the life faculty, thus this is a nonad. Eyesense is produced by kamma: it is in a group of nine other rupas: it is a decad, the eye-decad. Hi Nina, Thanks for this succinct explanation. I'm a little confused by the "eye-decade". Also, if I see a rock, are you saying the rock is not kamma result but the seeing is? Larry 27227 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:12pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, Azita and All, I have not read the Vis., I feel quite uncomfortable with the language style, but the fault is mine. Neither have I read Kalupahana, so I have been reluctant to say anything. But I do have an opinion as you may have seen on another thread. As I have said there, I think we need to differentiate between philosophizing about the Teachings and reflecting about it in daily life. I am quite sure that there are people out there who could argue and convince other people even with reference to the direct words of the Buddha, such things as that Buddha did not deny the existence of the soul or even of God and so reinforce their own views about the existence of these. And then there are those not having any moments of satipatthana and knowing little the difference between doubt and `wise reflection', are drawn in by the former in the name of the latter. I believe that as puthujanas, there will remain always a high degree of doubt and wrong view, and both these will condition the other, I think. There will be those who see that the commentaries are consistent with the Suttas and so they will have full faith in them. And there are those who don't and so will continue seeing discrepancies. On the level of pure reasoning, it is hard to prove the other wrong, how else has this Mahayana/Theravada difference continued to exist with little of the proponent of one being convinced and drawn in by the arguments of the other. From my own experience however, and btw, I was attracted first to Mahayana before Theravada, I have seen those who believe in the latter as being far more down to earth than the former. And when it comes to particulars, the Abhidhamma group that I know is much more in touch with reality, than those who believe in meditation. And this group of Abhidhammists has full faith in the commentaries. But I may be projecting, so allow me to add some more concrete arguments. I think that at the root of all the choices we make in thought and actions, is "View". We are attracted to arguments which click with our existing `views', whether verbalized or not. However being so low in panna and high in avijja, often we do not even know that we are in conflict with ourselves, on the one hand arguing against eternalist outlook but in practice we behave otherwise. The Mahayanist are right in cautioning about eternalistic and substantialist tendencies, but then what about when they have the idea of a `self' developing kusala and *doing* meditation? The concept of `Emptiness' seems to me to be at once both annihilationist as well as eternalistic! How? Because on the one hand it leans towards the suggestion that nothing exists, yet on the other hand `Emptiness' is made into a `thing' used to deny what is happening right now in front of our noses. On the other hand, though there is a tendency in us puthujanas as you rightly suggest in this post, > "Our mind has a very hard time in getting rid of the idea that something has an > essence, something we can grab on and say `Oh! At last this really exists…" I think the study of Abhidhamma as Robert has indirectly suggested, does not stop at just this concept. `Conditionality', `Dependent Origination', the `Tilakhana' is always associated with the concept of sabhava. Besides, when we talk about manifestation, function, proximate cause and characteristic of realities, are we talking about something that never exists? Even within the Theravada Abhidhamma tradition there is an argument arising from doubt, that *in fact* we cannot experience realities ever. This is based on the argument that realities rise and fall so fast that they have already fallen away by the time there is any awareness of it, so in fact we are only experiencing `illusions' so to speak. To this, K. Sujin always has to remind the questioner that `something appears and is being experienced isn't it?' I think we can forever be drawn in by philosophical arguments and keep on denying what is really going on. This is why I suggested earlier that Buddha's teachings are for practical application, not just `thinking about'. To know this requires panna that sees the importance of satipatthana and the accumulation of the paramis, particularly in relation to the development of panna. And in this connection, I see the study of nama/rupa, conditionality, and the increasing familiarity with the characteristic of all realities as being complementary to this practice. And for this, knowing about sabhava dhammas is quite essential. Hope this is not too long and I have not bored you. ;-) Looking forward to your response. With metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Azita, > > Azita: > Are you saying that they [paramatta dhammas] do not exist? If > I've misinterperated you, forgive me, bc I'm unclear as to what you > are suggesting. > > Michael: > It is interesting that when it comes to a person it is not so hard to accept > that he/she doe not have a self. Has no intrinsic nature, no essence, is > anatta and anicca – no self and impermanent. But when it comes to dhammas, > the idea that they also have no intrinsic nature is so hard to accept. Our > mind has a very hard time in getting rid of the idea that something has an > essence, something we can grab on and say `Oh! At last this really exists, I > can feel safe now. My self does not exist but my dhammas are real.' > Everything is utterly empty, has no abiding essence. The same logic that > applies to a person also applies to dhammas. > > Metta > Michael > 27228 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Traffic Lights Hi Azita (and Sarah and Nina), -------------- Az: > Me too [Sarah's suggestion from a few posts ago], but the 'me too' means here that I often can't find the right words. Want to reply but can't quite get there! My excuse this time is that I'm on night shift and am about to fall asleep right here at the comput....zzzzz --------------- :-) I'm sure we're not the only ones who have trouble sending posts off. There should be a support group for dysfunctional dsg members. -------------- Az: > I feel a tad sad that I won't be attending the upcoming w/e at Cooran; I leave those w/e feeling very uplifted. Hello to the others for me. ------------- I will 'hello the others' for you and we will all miss you. I don't like to make too much of that, though, in case you feel obligated to attend more often. From Cairns to Cooran is a very long way and we really appreciate that you make the effort. Sarah asked: " we haven't heard anything about the agenda for this one....(is there one at all this time??)." Yes, a number of topics have been put forward. Among them are the Anapanasati-sutta and the Satipatthana- sutta. Just a couple of quick ones to get the ball rolling. :-) I had already gone through the UP's and downloaded Nina's series on Anapanasati and now she is making them even more accessible by reposting. Thank you Nina, we will report back on our progress. ------------------- Az: > To Sarah: in answer to a post a few days ago, about my Q in myanmar re the 'positioning' of the khandhas. Yes, I can see why vedana and sanna are a khandha each, they do keep 'us' running around; ------------------- I remember your asking this Q weeks before Myanmar but I didn't know Sarah had answered it. Have I missed a post? (Heaven forbid!) I'll have to go back and find it. Reading, recently, something about nirodha-sampatti (extinction of sanna and vedana), I thought it might have been relevant to your Q but perhaps not. Kind regards, Ken H 27229 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 1:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/21/03 9:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > The > Mahayanist are right in cautioning about eternalistic and > substantialist tendencies, but then what about when they have the > idea of a `self' developing kusala and *doing* meditation? The > concept of `Emptiness' seems to me to be at once both > annihilationist as well as eternalistic! How? Because on the one > hand it leans towards the suggestion that nothing exists, yet on the > other hand `Emptiness' is made into a `thing' used to deny what is > happening right now in front of our noses. > ========================= Though there are many problems within some schools of Mahayana as I see it (and much that is great as well), I think that your statements here are way off the mark. Mahayana does not accept a self, and Mahayanists speak of persons developing wholesome states and meditating merely as conventional speech, no differently than Theravadins, and no differently than the Buddha, himself. Also, Mahayana fastidiously avoids both extremes of nihilism and substantialis/eternalism, with Nagarjuna explicitly warning against taking emptiness to be a "thing". The emptiness of Mahayana is nothing more than the impersonality, insubstantiality, and dependent status of dhammas, and it leans neither towards annihilationism nor eternalism. I seriously think you misread Mahayana here. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27230 From: shakti Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 6:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Htoo Naing, Thank you for the reminders of death being always present. This past week I have been doing a lot of contemplation on death and dying. My god mother, aunt died and two of my neighbors died this past week. My two neighbors were 85 and 86. Lucy died on Sat. evening and John found her Sunday morning. Her body was taken away and shortly after that, he wasn't feeling well. The ambulance was called and took him to the hospital, where he died a few hours later. They were a sweet loving couple, rarely apart. You would see both of them shoveling snow or working in the garden. Always together, even in death. I've been wondering where did they go? What died? What did they take with them? What is the difference between rebirth and reincarnation? What is reborn or reincarnated? Why are we born? Metta, Shakti Htoo Naing wrote: Dear Dhamma Friends, We have been born. We were born and have lived our lives till right now. In the interim when we were born and when we are now is a dimension of time. Who was born in 1903 will have lived 100 years and in 2003 just now will have lived just hours. Since we have been born, we actually are ready to die at any time. This is not to dispute in any way as it is quite clear to see the matter to its deepest level. As we are ready, death is also ready to come. But what is not sure is when he will come. If this matter is always remembered, there is nothing to attach to life-related sensual things. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. Minutes are being eaten away making hours which again are poured into days, months, years and so on. We should always remember that death is coming. Actually he is coming now. This makes us a kind of meditation called Maranaanussati Kammatthana. This may well form the basis for higher knowledge. There is no thought apart from thought of death. Hindrances stop. Mind becomes clean. It becomes tranquilized and well calm. As mind is calm enough, thinking becomes effective and productive. Death by convention is when breathing, circulation, consciousness and all body functions stop. But if penetrative wisdom arises, it will see that Death is coming all the time. Seconds are fading away tick by tick. We are being dead tick by tick. No one can stop that tick-tack tick-tack. That tick and tack are sign of death. It is not permanent. It is Anicca. We see. Seeing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We hear. Hearing stop. We think. Thinking stop. We smell. Smelling stop. We think. Thinking stop. We taste. Tasting stop. We think. Thinking stop. We touch. Touching stop. We think. thinking stop. Death clock is running all the time tick-tack tick-tack. May you all recognize Anicca here, there, around and about With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27231 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:13pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Howard, The point I am trying to make is this, 'believers' be they Mahayanist or Theravadins, believe in 'anatta' and/or 'emptiness'. The Mahayanist *do* believe in anatta, I am not saying that they don't. But belief in the concept is one thing, and understanding it enough to know that this moment is conditioned and anatta is another thing. Here is where I think one is contradicting oneself. On the one hand, verbally asserts that all is conditioned and not-self, and by extention one then goes on to conclude that all is 'emptiness' (to me one of the most misleading and vague concepts ever put forward), tending towards denying what goes on right now. [And what goes on is manifestations and characteristics of realities which condition all these grand ideas that we have, as far as I am concerned.] Yet there is a 'volition', behind which is the idea of 'controling conditions' and this I call 'self', which can 'in particular cause the arising of certain states'. So one can sincerely (relatively, and here I see the importance of previous accumulation of paramis), be cautioning others about the danger of substantialism, and come up with a theory about 'emptiness', *but what is one's own reaction to experiences*? Howard, I feel that the commentators of Theravada have been most compassionate in trying to explain in detail the Buddha's teachings. I see it as being our own lack of panna and comprehensive knowledge that we fail to see its true value. In our ignorance we often come up with our own theories about what realities might be and interpret the Buddha's words according to those views. I do not see it as being helpful to introduce such vague concepts as `emptiness'. I think this as being the result of philosophizing rather than actual experience. To me, without the foundation of satipatthana or at least honest reflection of ones experience, anything anyone says is not much worth considering, besides with the Tipitaka still available, why opt for anything else? I know that I am making a generalized view based on extremely little knowledge of Mahayana. But I trust that you will let me know where I am wrong, no? ;-) Thanks for trying to clarify matters for me. Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Sukin - > > In a message dated 11/21/03 9:31:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, > sukinder@k... writes: > > > The > > Mahayanist are right in cautioning about eternalistic and > > substantialist tendencies, but then what about when they have the > > idea of a `self' developing kusala and *doing* meditation? The > > concept of `Emptiness' seems to me to be at once both > > annihilationist as well as eternalistic! How? Because on the one > > hand it leans towards the suggestion that nothing exists, yet on the > > other hand `Emptiness' is made into a `thing' used to deny what is > > happening right now in front of our noses. > > > ========================= > Though there are many problems within some schools of Mahayana as I > see it (and much that is great as well), I think that your statements here are > way off the mark. Mahayana does not accept a self, and Mahayanists speak of > persons developing wholesome states and meditating merely as conventional speech, > no differently than Theravadins, and no differently than the Buddha, himself. > Also, Mahayana fastidiously avoids both extremes of nihilism and > substantialis/eternalism, with Nagarjuna explicitly warning against taking emptiness to be > a "thing". The emptiness of Mahayana is nothing more than the impersonality, > insubstantiality, and dependent status of dhammas, and it leans neither > towards annihilationism nor eternalism. I seriously think you misread Mahayana here. > > With metta, > Howard 27232 From: Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 4:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/21/03 11:15:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > The point I am trying to make is this, 'believers' be they > Mahayanist or Theravadins, believe in 'anatta' and/or 'emptiness'. > The Mahayanist *do* believe in anatta, I am not saying that they > don't. But belief in the concept is one thing, and understanding it > enough to know that this moment is conditioned and anatta is another > thing. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: Certainly. And, as you say, this goes across "party lines". ------------------------------------------------------- Here is where I think one is contradicting oneself. On the > > one hand, verbally asserts that all is conditioned and not-self, and > by extention one then goes on to conclude that all is 'emptiness' > (to me one of the most misleading and vague concepts ever put > forward), tending towards denying what goes on right now. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that intelligent Mahayanists say that "All is emptiness". What they say is that all things are empty, which is quite different. ------------------------------------------------------ [And what > goes on is manifestations and characteristics of realities which > condition all these grand ideas that we have, as far as I am > concerned.] Yet there is a 'volition', behind which is the idea > of 'controling conditions' and this I call 'self', which can 'in > particular cause the arising of certain states'. ------------------------------------------------------ Volition is just volition, a function. It does exert influence. And, for sure, it is part of what leads non-arahants to a sense of self. But it is not self. ----------------------------------------------------- > So one can sincerely (relatively, and here I see the importance of > previous accumulation of paramis), be cautioning others about the > danger of substantialism, and come up with a theory > about 'emptiness', *but what is one's own reaction to experiences*? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: We use nominalizations all the time in language. The Buddha did so, himself. If we are fooled by such usage, then there is a problem. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, I feel that the commentators of Theravada have been most > compassionate in trying to explain in detail the Buddha's teachings. > I see it as being our own lack of panna and comprehensive knowledge > that we fail to see its true value. In our ignorance we often come > up with our own theories about what realities might be and interpret > the Buddha's words according to those views. I do not see it as > being helpful to introduce such vague concepts as `emptiness'. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: The Buddha used 'su~n~na' and 'su~n~nata' in his discourses. The concept is not an invention of Mahayana. And there is nothing vague about it. Su~n~na and anatta are the same. ---------------------------------------------------- I > > think this as being the result of philosophizing rather than actual > experience. To me, without the foundation of satipatthana or at > least honest reflection of ones experience, anything anyone says is > not much worth considering, besides with the Tipitaka still > available, why opt for anything else? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Satipatthana is part of Mahayana as well as Theravada. The use of Sanskrit instead of Pali doesn't turn milk to curds. --------------------------------------------------- > > I know that I am making a generalized view based on extremely little > knowledge of Mahayana. But I trust that you will let me know where I > am wrong, no? ;-) -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Nope, sorry. There's just no basis for seeing substantialism in Mahayana any more so than in Theravada. In fact, Mahayana began as a corrective to substantialist and annihilationist heresies in certain early schools, the Sarvastivadins and Sautrantikas in particular. In fact, the Mahayanists often accuse the Theravadins (wrongly) of being substantialists! Substantialist and annihilationist errors can be found almost everywhere one looks. And why? Because to make such errors is our human nature - our unenlightened, ignorant tendency. ----------------------------------------------- > > Thanks for trying to clarify matters for me. > > > Metta, > > Sukin. ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27233 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Dear Gazita, I enjoyed very much your post with quotes. And also your reminder: if it is not right understanding there is a big, fat chance that it is akusala. Wishing for more understanding creeping in! Nina. op 21-11-2003 12:41 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > From SN 35:85. '"Empty is the world! Empty is the world!" thus > it is said, Venerable ONe. But why, Venerable One, is the world > called empty?' > Because, Ananda, the world is empty of a self and of anything > belonging to a self, therefore the world is called empty. 27234 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Natural Decisive Support Condition The following message is from *Mike* who had trouble posting his message to the list ========================================================================= > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah > > 2. Based on my understanding, natural decisive support is the > > keystone for morality and development; if this is true, why is it > > not central to the Suttas (even under the name of accumulations)? > .... > Good Qu. I think it is central to the Suttas, but addressed in > different > terminology. For example, what would be the purpose of reading about > `guarding the senses' or developing other wholesome states if they > were > not `accumulated' and developed. When we read about the khandhas or > ayatanas, we're reading about anatta and the conditioned nature of > realities. Indeed the second stage of insight is understanding about > this. > I think this is the point about reading the Teachings as a > description of > conditioned realities rather than as a set of rules to follow with > an idea > of `self' that can do anything. It just depends how the suttas are > read > and interpreted. I hope others like Nina, Robert or especially > **Mike** > will add comments about this qu as I'm a bit tired now after > teaching and > beginning to ramble. Sarah, since you asked and I have a minute, it seems to me that this touches again on kamma and rebirth vs the goal (i.e. the end of rebirth). What is a 'keystone for morality' (however important otherwise) is not at all the same thing for liberation, I think, and so isn't 'central to the Suttas' (cf. 'minor matters of mere morality' in the Brahmajala Sutta). Hope I haven't misunderstood you, RobM, and certainly defer to your (and Sarah's) vastly superior knowledge of abhidhamma. Apologies in advance if I'm unable to continue this thread... mike 27235 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 10:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > Robert: I repeat the question: So have I got it right: When the suttas etc. > talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the ultimate, true > sense, > there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing at > all? =================================== > > In conventional sense all those things exist. In ultimate sense they are > empty, no abiding essence, not real. So, one can say they exist and also can > say they don't exist. Both are right, provided the correct provisos are > included. Conventional reality is important, thats were we live until > liberation. But we have to understand where we live to curb ignorance. > ============= Dear Michael, Sorry to ask so many questions; I am still trying to understand where you and professor Kalupahana feel that the ancient monks of Theravada taught wrong teaching. My own position is the same as those venerable monks. Could I give an example: "I am angry; or "She is angry". In the Theravada the 'I' or 'she', 'He', "beings" etc are considered a conventional designation, a concept: "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common usage."(samyutta I, 135) "These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. But anger is a conditioned reality which arises and passes away. So anger is paramattha dhamma, whereas 'I' or 'she' are only concept. Am I right that according to your view both 'anger' and 'I'or 'she' are only conventional truth and neither exist even for an instant in actual truth. Or is there some distinction between anger (which is part of sankhara khandha) and 'I', 'she'? RobertK 27236 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Nov 21, 2003 11:45pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Shakti, and All, What a shock for you, these deaths so close together. It is good at a time like this to ask just those questions you have asked below. Shakti: "I've been wondering where did they go? What died? What did they take with them? What is the difference between rebirth and reincarnation? What is reborn or reincarnated? Why are we born?" No answers from me - you already know about citta, cetasika and rupa. You already know about kamma and vipaka. Though at times like this, it is hard to merge the theoretical, the experiential and the personal. Here are a few readings that may be food for further thought. I apologise for not having all the quotes attributed, but this has sat in my 'drafts' folder for a year or two, since a number of my daughter's young friends were killed in a road accident, in their second year post-high school, and I was asking just the same questions. My confusion also included a sort of horror at the seeming 'unfairness' of it all ... "CONTEMPLATING DEATH Nowadays, according to a world record, about 200,000 people die, on average, every day. Apparently about 70 million people die every year. We are not used to contemplate death or come to terms with it. What we usually do is to avoid it and live as if we were never going to die. As long as there is fear of death, life itself is not being lived to its fullest and at its best. So one of the very fundamental reasons for contemplating death, for making this reality fully conscious, is that of overcoming fear. The contemplation of death is not for making us depressed or morbid; it is rather for the purpose of helping to free ourselves from fear. Contemplation of death will change the way we live and our attitudes towards life. The values that we have in life will change quite drastically once we stop living as if we are going to live forever, and we will start living in a quite different way. (Buddhanet.net) Seeing with wisdom the end of life in others and comparing this life to a lamp kept in a windy place, one should meditate on death. Just as the world beings who once enjoyed great prosperity will die, even so one day will I die too. Death will indeed come to me. This death has come along with birth. Therefore, like an executioner, death always seeks an opportunity to destroy. Life, without halting for a moment, and ever keen on moving, runs like the sun that hastens to set after its rise. This life comes to an end like a streak of lightening, a bubble of water, a dew drop on a leaf, or a line drawn on water. Like an enemy intent on killing, death can never be avoided. If death could come in an instant to the Buddhas endowed with great glory, prowess, merits, supernormal powers and wisdom, what could be said of me? Dying every instant, at one point I shall die in the blink of an eye, for want of food, or through internal ailments or through external injuries. Uncertain is my life certain is my death Inevitable is death for me my life has death as its end my life is indeed unsure my death is sure Not long alas this body on the earth will lie rejected, void of consiousness useless like a rotten log All beings have died are dying will die In the same way I too will die not for me of this there doubt All formations are transient when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All formations are suffering when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity All phenomena are non-self when one with wisdom sees then one is disenchanted with ill this is the path to purity Dhammapada: 286 "Here shall I dwell in the season of rains, and here in winter and summer"; thus thinks the fool, but he does not think of death. 287 For death carries away the man whose mind is self-satisfied with his children and his flocks, even as a torrent carries away a sleeping village. 288 Neither father, sons nor one's relations can stop the King of Death. When he comes with all his power, a man's relations cannot save him. 289 A man who is virtuous and wise understands the meaning of this, and swiftly strives with all his might to clear a path to Nirvana. Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.'... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.'... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'... "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... "These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. May this realization spur me on to put aside useless regrets, and live each day with compassion for myself and others, with kindness towards myself and others, with joy in the achievements of myself and others, and with even-mindedness in all things THE MEDITATION ON DEATH This is a contemplation on impermanence. The meditator is trying to face the stark reality that she will die. One method is to think of beings known to one who have already died and to raise the thought; "just as this one died and is no more, so I too will not escape that fate." If this method is used, the yogin should be very careful not to dwell on the death of loved ones which will lead to sorrow or regret. Instead, neutral beings should be used. Think of people you once knew who are now gone and realize this is a universal fate. Mindfulness of Death: The Eight Ways of Recollecting Death As having the appearance of a murderer. Death is like a murderer that is born along with a person and follows him all life long with a drawn sword and may at any time lop off his head. As the ruin of success. No matter what riches, beauty, power or fame a being may have, it will all come to nought with death. By comparison in seven ways: With those of great fame: Remember very well known people who have died. Consider that if even such as those can pass away, then what of obscure folk like us? With those of great merit: Remember beings with great merit who have lived in the past and are now dead such as Bodhidharma, St. Francis, Gandhi. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of sinners like us? With those of great worldly power: Remember beings with great power over the earth. The world leaders of the world war generation make a good sample of these, as their power was truly earth shaking; Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler and Stalin. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of powerless people like us? With those of great supernormal power: Remember beings with great supernormal powers who have died. Examples, Milarepa, Achaan Mun, Mogallana. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of undeveloped beings like us? With those of great understanding: Remember beings of outstanding wisdom who have died. Examples, Sariputra, Buddhaghosa, Einstein. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of ignorant people like us? With Paceka Buddhas. Even with the great development of their energy and knowledge they too have fallen prey to death. How then will it be for such as us? With fully-enlightened Buddhas. If even the Blessed Ones have died and passed away then what of people like us? As to sharing this body with many: our bodies are home to billions of parasites and symbionts of all types; viruses, bacteria, protozoa, worms and insects. Not only does this fact make apparent the falsity of the illusion that we in some sense " own" this body, but it points out that any unbalance can cause one or more of these to breed out of control and kill us. As to the frailty of life: life can be destroyed at any time by accident, disease or other misfortune. Fire, flood, cancer, plague; the number of perils to this fragile shell are too numerous to list. As to the " signlessness" of death: this means the unpredictability of death. We know not when, where or how we shall die. We could die tomorrow or in fifty years. We know not where we shall lay down the corpse, in our homeland or far overseas. Again, we cannot know whether we shall die by heart attack, cancer or choking on a chicken bone. As to the limitedness of extent: life is a finite commodity. There is a definite span to each life, even if we cannot know it ahead of time. This encourages urgency, because we cannot know how much time we have left. As to the shortness of the moment: this refers to the momentary nature of consciousness. Each mind- moment is a discrete entity unto itself. In this way we are " dying" each and every moment. This moment will not come again." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Thank you for the reminders of death being always present. > > This past week I have been doing a lot of contemplation on death and dying. My god mother, aunt died and two of my neighbors died this past week. 27237 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:38am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 37-41 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see.(14) Its function is to pick up [an object](15) among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. 37. tattha ruupaabhighaataarahatappasaadalakkha.na.m da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa cakkhu, ruupesu aavi~nchanarasa.m, cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m, da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 38. 2. The ear's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of sounds; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to hear. Its function is to pick up [an object] among sounds. It is manifested as the footing of ear-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to hear. 38. saddaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m, sotukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa sota.m, saddesu aavi~nchanarasa.m, sotavi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m, sotukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 39. 3. The nose's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of odours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to smell. Its function is to pick up [an object] among odours. It is manifested as the footing of nose-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to smell. 39. gandhaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m, ghaayitukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa ghaana.m, gandhesu aavi~nchanarasa.m, ghaanavi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m, ghaayitukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 40. 4. The tongue's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of flavours; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to taste. Its function is to pick up [an object] among flavours. It is manifested as the footing of tongue-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to taste. 40. rasaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaadalakkha.naa, saayitukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.naa vaa jivhaa, rasesu aavi~nchanarasaa, jivhaavi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaanaa, saayitukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaanaa. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 41. 5. The body's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of tangible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to touch. Its function is to pick up [an object] among tangible data. It is manifested as the footing of body-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to touch. 41. pho.t.thabbaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaadalakkha.no, phusitukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.no vaa kaayo, pho.t.thabbesu aavi~nchanaraso, kaayavi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaano, phusitukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaano. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Notes: 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. The second is according to the specialized kamma generated thus, 'Let my eye be thus'. This is what they say. But it can be taken that the first-mentioned characteristic is stated as sensitivity's interest in lighting up its own objective fields, the five senses' state of sensitivity being taken as a generality; and that the second is stated as the seeing that is due to the particular division of its own cause, the sensitivities' cause as the state of kamma being taken as a generality or as a unity. The same method applies to the ear and so on. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. And the ability here need not be understood as anything other than the able state; for it is simply the effort of producing fruit that is differentiated by the differentiation due to the differentiation in its cause. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts (note 21). Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm. 444). 15. Aavi~njana--'picking-up': see "aavijjhati" in P.T.S. Dict. 27238 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:18am Subject: The Buddha Dear James, I do agree with you with what you wrote to Philip, how people have good results and they start to relax thinking that this will stay like that forever. But unexpectedly things just change. Did the Buddha have a large number of people following him? Did the Buddha teach them what is right and what is wrong? If they did something wrong, will they be punished? Metta, Sandy 27239 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: > Michael: "The same logic that > applies to a person also applies to dhammas." > > Hi Michael & Azita, > > I haven't been following this thread so I may be going over old > stuff, but I think abhidhamma would disagree with this statement. > Abhidhamma would say a person is a concept while a feeling, for > example, is a reality. A feeling arises and ceases as an experience > but a person is a general notion that has to be defined. . [ snip] > > Larry Dear Larry and Michael, I agree with what you say Larry, and want to add more, from Vipassana Dipani, the Manual of Insight, by Ledi Sayadaw Maha Thera: "Ultimate truth is the absolute truthfulness of assertion or negation in full and comlete accordance wiht what is actual, the elementary, fundamental qualities of phenomena. Here stating such truth in the affirmative form, one may say: 'the element of solidity exists,' 'the element of extension exists,' 'the element of cohesion exists,' 'the element of kinetic energy exists,' 'mind exists,' 'consciousness exists,' 'contact, feeling and perception exist,' 'material aggregates exist,' and so on. And expressing such truth in a negative form, it can be said: 'no self exists,' 'no living soul exists,' 'no person exists,' 'nor do hands, nor any part of the body exist,' 'neither does a man or a Deva exist' and so on. In saying here 'no self exists, no living soul exists' we mean that there is no such ultimate entity as a self or living soul which persists unchanged during the whole term of life, without momentarily coming to be and passing away. In the expressions 'no being exists' and so forth, what is meant is that nothing actually exists but material and mental elements. These elements are neither persons nor beings etc. Therefore there is no separate being or person apart from the elements. This ultimate truth is the diametrical opposite of the hallucination [vipallasa], and so can confute it. One who is thus able to confute or reject the hallucination can escape from the evils of Samsara." To Michael: I don't believe the same logic that applies to a person also applies to dhammas. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 27240 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Howard, > > The point I am trying to make is this, 'believers' be they > > Mahayanist or Theravadins, believe in 'anatta' and/or 'emptiness'. > > The Mahayanist *do* believe in anatta, I am not saying that they > > don't. But belief in the concept is one thing, and understanding it > > enough to know that this moment is conditioned and anatta is another > > thing. > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Certainly. And, as you say, this goes across "party lines". > ------------------------------------------------------- And ultimately there is no 'Mahayana' or 'Theravada' and hence no "party", but only 'views' and the 'insistence' that one is right and the other is wrong.;-) Howard, I think this is turning to be a Mahayana v.s. Theravada debate, so I am sure you will agree that we drop this topic of discussion. I think there will be plenty of opportunities for both of us to express ourselves though in a different context, that will somehow show both of us what the other's view is with regard to this. Do you agree? Metta, Sukin 27241 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita - > > These are wonderful quotes, Azita. I love them! I also think that > Victor's position is in perfect harmony with them. BTW, "the world" is the five > khandhas. All that is pointed to here can be directly discerned with right > practice, and the direct knowing of all this is freeing. (The second quote, > however, I must admit, comes quite *close* to explicity asserting the nonexistence of > a self, but, on careful inspection, it only says that all elements of all > khandhas are empty of self, that is - they are not me or mine.) Dear Howard, What do you mean by 'it only says.....'? is there anything else to say? If the elements, the Khandhas etc are ultimate truth, what else is there to be found? An important > point, I think, is that the Buddha taught not in order to inculcate positions, but > to plant seeds that will sprout in liberation. If there is no right understanding of this very present moment, that this present moment is just those phenomena arising and falling away so rapidly, then there will be no liberation. For those 'seeds' to grow, right understanding must arise to be able to be developed. Wisdom cannot develop unless it arises. Surely it is right understanding - a reality - and not me - a nonreality, that will see phenomena for what it really is -Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 27242 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sukin Sukin wrote: On the level of pure reasoning, it is hard to prove the other wrong, how else has this Mahayana/Theravada difference continued to exist with little of the proponent of one being convinced and drawn in by the arguments of the other. Michael: I am afraid the only way to find out is to taste it, I mean find out for yourself, challenge your assumption that reasoning proves nothing. Therefore I suggest you study a little bit more about the philosophical stand of Nagarjuna and his followers. But on the other hand I agree with you that the most important is the practice. Theory/philosophizing just as a base for right view and practice. Metta Michael 27243 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Azita. Azita: I don't believe the same logic that applies to a person also applies to dhammas. Michael: OK. But keep in mind that if dhammas have an essence then they are not subject to dependent origination. Dependent origination can only work if phenomena are devoid of any abiding nature/essence. Metta Michael 27244 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Howard, Howard: Substantialist and annihilationist errors can be found almost everywhere one looks. And why? Because to make such errors is our human nature - our unenlightened, ignorant tendency. Michael: Sadhu, sadhu, sadhu. Metta Michael 27245 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Shakti, Things are not always as they seem. Some happen as expected while some happen in a way that have never been expected. Could you see my inline text reply below. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > Thank you for the reminders of death being always present. > > This past week I have been doing a lot of contemplation on death and dying. My god mother, aunt died and two of my neighbors died this past week. > > My two neighbors were 85 and 86. Lucy died on Sat. evening and John found her Sunday morning. Her body was taken away and shortly after that, he wasn't feeling well. The ambulance was called and took him to the hospital, where he died a few hours later. They were a sweet loving couple, rarely apart. You would see both of them shoveling snow or working in the garden. Always together, even in death. ------------------------------ S: I've been wondering where did they go? ------------------------------------------ H : They couldn't go anywhere as they were dead. The bodies would be under the ground. If someone thinks that one dies and he is reborn in another realm assuming he goes to that new realm, this view sounds like eternal. Like the spirit departs the old body and it inhabits the new body. This kind of view or concept is called Sassata Ditthi ( wrong view holding the concept of eternity ). Samsara is a chain of lives without any interruption. Each has his own Samsara. No one meets another one. Here arises a question how lives are connected. 1. Human to Hell ( Niriya Bhumi ) 2. Human to Tiricchana ( Animal ) 3. Human to Peta ( Ghost ) 4. Human to Asura ( Demon ) 5. Human to Human ( including man to man, man to woman, woman to woman, woman to man ) 6. Human to Deva ( any Deva in 6 Deva realms ) 7. Human to Brahma ( any Brahma in 20 Brahma realms. There are many possible shiftings between the same realm and between different realms. The shift is like transfering of flame from a near extinguishing candle light to a new candle. The candles are not the same they are different. They may have the same colour ( human to human ) or may be different colour ( human to other realms ). But they are related. the new candle has to light due to the old candle light. ( Htoo ) ----------------------------------------- S : What died? ---------------- H : Not clear what was asked. --------------------------------------- S : What did they take with them? ------------------------------------- H : They couldn't take any properties. What they brought with them is Kamma, which again is their own properties as those Kamma were made by themselves at their will. They spent their whole lives till they died. During their lives they did Kamma daily. This is not only them but also we all are in this sense. ( Htoo ) ------------------------------------------------ S : What is the difference between rebirth and reincarnation? What is reborn or reincarnated? ---------------------------------------------- H : Rebirth the term is just translation of Pali term Patisandhe. Rebirth is not the exact term. But for readily understandable it works. Patisandhi is a single moment. It is just one billionth of a blink. It last a lifespan of a Citta. It means linking. The previous life ended with Cuti Citta. Cuti Citta may assumed as death consciousness even though it is not the exact word for it. Bhavanga Cittas of next life come after Patisandhi Citta. Bhavanga Cittas are Cittas that arise as a life. When a particular Satta is in action ( moving, speaking, thinking or anything ) Vithi Cittas arise otherwise Bhavanga Cittas arise. Patisandhi Citta is a Citta between Cuti Citta of the previous life and the first Bhavanga Citta of the present life. So called linking consciousness or Patisandhe. There is no delay in these process. Reincarnation is just rebirth. Most apparent events are human to human shifting of life. But there also are human to animals and animals to human. Shifting of life except human and animals are not called reincarnation. Reincarnation is understandable if events are experienced. The difference from rebirth is reincarnated Satta has some memory of their previous life while ( simple )reborn Satta cannot remember any events of the past life ( be careful reincarnated Sattas are reborn Sattas ).( Htoo ) ------------------------------- S :Why are we born? --------------------------------- H : As long as Sattas cannot eradicate all defilements they will have to be reborn. Once they eradicate all defilements there will be no more rebirth. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------------- > Metta, Shakti 27246 From: htootintnaing Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:50am Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Christine, Shakti and all, Thanks Christine for your kind references and Suttas. I included most of your words below in my inline text reply. I do hope these discussion will be helpful for all members and I am looking forward to adding of other members' thought on the matter of death. May all beings be mindful that they were born and ready to die. With Great Compassion, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Shakti, and All, > > What a shock for you, these deaths so close together. It is good at > a time like this to ask just those questions you have asked below. > > Shakti: "I've been wondering where did they go? What died? What did > they take with them? What is the difference between rebirth and > reincarnation? What is reborn or reincarnated? Why are we born?" -------------------------------------------------------------- Christine : my daughter's young friends were killed in a road accident, and I was asking just the same questions. My confusion also included a sort of horror at the seeming 'unfairness' of it all ... ---------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : I have talked about Shakti's questions in my previous post. Here I notice that you mentioned the seeming ' unfairness '. The seeming 'unfairness ' is not just in case of death but it happens in all areas. These are effects of Kamma. Saying like this does not necessarily mean, we should blindly rely on our past Kamma. Generous people who had been seen all their life with good deed and merits might end to death unexpectedly and in an unfair way. Extremely wicked people who are beyond description may live long with prosperity. There are different kind of Kamma and I mentioned at triplegem list 15 posts. Another seeming 'unfairness ' is success, achievement or anything like that in people who seem not to be worthy of them. Those who tried and struggled a lot to the extent that they should have achieved to their expected degree may not happen as they thought. This may also implicate Kamma. But past Kamma is not the sole factor of the present situation. Diligent struggle can get through anything. Sampatthi Dhamma work. (Htoo ) ------------------------------------------------------------- Christine : We are not used to contemplate death or come to terms with it. What we usually do is to avoid ( AVOID ) it and live as if we were never going to die. As long as there is fear ( FEAR ) of death, life itself is not being lived to its fullest and at its best. So one of the very fundamental reasons for contemplating death, for making this reality fully conscious, is that of overcoming fear. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Yes. Avoidance is not only in case of death but in all other unfavourable conditions. This happens because people do not want to face the real situations. If someone has got cancer and is told that he has, at least at first he would deny it as he does not want to face. But if he accept it and tries to seek treatment he would suffer less. This is because of uncertainty and unpredictability of future. Even if approximate date of death is known, fear still exists because of uncertainty of what would happen after death. Like a dying man we also should seek advice for relaying fear and uncertainty. Marana Anussati Kammatthana is not for producing fear. But it help us mentally preparing for death. If we are preparing all the time, then our way of living will totally change. At least some Mana ( conceit ) will lessen, some Lobha will lessen, and we finally can die with clear consciousness. ( Htoo ) --------------------------------------------------------- Christine : The contemplation of death is not for making us depressed ( DEPRESSED ) or morbid; it is rather for the purpose of helping to free ourselves from fear. Contemplation of death will change the way we live and our attitudes towards life. The values that we have in life will change quite drastically once we stop living as if we are going to live forever, and we will start living in a quite different way. (Buddhanet.net) --------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Exactly. The way we live will change. Thought of death is not for fear, not for depression, not for anxiety, not for anxiousness but for preparation. As I have said, we were born and since then we are ready to die. This has to be faced but in a sensible righteous way so that we can help each other and all other people. If the way people live change in connection with this thought, then the world would be in a favourable condition. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------------------------------------- Christine : This death has come along with birth. Therefore, like an executioner, death always seeks an opportunity to destroy. Life, without halting for a moment, and ever keen on moving, runs like the sun that hastens to set after its rise. ----------------------------------------------------- Htoo : So good and nice that I re-include your words, Christine. ------------------------------------------------------- Christine : This life comes to an end like a streak of lightening, a bubble of water, a dew drop on a leaf, or a line drawn on water. Like an enemy intent on killing, death can never be avoided. --------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Life as a whole is Anicca as each moment is Anicca. Your words help Anicca Sanna on life. ------------------------------------------------------ Christine : If death could come in an instant to the Buddhas endowed with great glory, prowess, merits, supernormal powers and wisdom, what could be said of me? Dying every instant, at one point I shall die in the blink of an eye, for want of food, or through internal ailments or through external injuries. ------------------------------------------------------------ Htoo : No one is exempted as Nama Dhamma, Rupa Dhamma are all Anicca. --------------------------------------------------------------- Upajjhatthana Sutta AN v.57 "There are these five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. Which five? "'I am subject to aging, have not gone beyond aging.' "'I am subject to illness, have not gone beyond illness.'... "'I am subject to death, have not gone beyond death.'... "'I will grow different, separate from all that is dear and appealing to me.'... "'I am the owner of my actions (kamma), heir to my actions, born of my actions, related through my actions, and have my actions as my arbitrator. Whatever I do, for good or for evil, to that will I fall heir.'... "These are the five facts that one should reflect on often, whether one is a woman or a man, lay or ordained. May this realization spur me on to put aside useless regrets, and live each day with compassion for myself and others, with kindness towards myself and others, with joy in the achievements of myself and others, and with even-mindedness in all things -------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Good Suttam and your thought units are good as well. And finally, ' THE MEDITATION ON DEATH ' is restated below. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------- THE MEDITATION ON DEATH One method is to think of beings known to one who have already died and to raise the thought; "just as this one died and is no more, so I too will not escape that fate." If this method is used, the yogin should be very careful not to dwell on the death of loved ones which will lead to sorrow or regret. Instead, neutral beings should be used. Think of people you once knew who are now gone and realize this is a universal fate. Mindfulness of Death: The Eight Ways of Recollecting Death As having the appearance of a murderer. Death is like a murderer that is born along with a person and follows him all life long with a drawn sword and may at any time lop off his head. As the ruin of success. No matter what riches, beauty, power or fame a being may have, it will all come to nought with death. By comparison in seven ways: With those of great fame: Remember very well known people who have died. Consider that if even such as those can pass away, then what of obscure folk like us? With those of great merit: Remember beings with great merit who have lived in the past and are now dead such as Bodhidharma, St. Francis, Gandhi. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of sinners like us? With those of great worldly power: Remember beings with great power over the earth. The world leaders of the world war generation make a good sample of these, as their power was truly earth shaking; Churchill, Roosevelt, Hitler and Stalin. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of powerless people like us? With those of great supernormal power: Remember beings with great supernormal powers who have died. Examples, Milarepa, Achaan Mun, Mogallana. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of undeveloped beings like us? With those of great understanding: Remember beings of outstanding wisdom who have died. Examples, Sariputra, Buddhaghosa, Einstein. Consider that if even such as these can pass away, then what of ignorant people like us? With Paceka Buddhas. Even with the great development of their energy and knowledge they too have fallen prey to death. How then will it be for such as us? With fully-enlightened Buddhas. If even the Blessed Ones have died and passed away then what of people like us? As to sharing this body with many: our bodies are home to billions of parasites and symbionts of all types; viruses, bacteria, protozoa, worms and insects. Not only does this fact make apparent the falsity of the illusion that we in some sense " own" this body, but it points out that any unbalance can cause one or more of these to breed out of control and kill us. As to the frailty of life: life can be destroyed at any time by accident, disease or other misfortune. Fire, flood, cancer, plague; the number of perils to this fragile shell are too numerous to list. As to the " signlessness" of death: this means the unpredictability of death. We know not when, where or how we shall die. We could die tomorrow or in fifty years. We know not where we shall lay down the corpse, in our homeland or far overseas. Again, we cannot know whether we shall die by heart attack, cancer or choking on a chicken bone. As to the limitedness of extent: life is a finite commodity. There is a definite span to each life, even if we cannot know it ahead of time. This encourages urgency, because we cannot know how much time we have left. As to the shortness of the moment: this refers to the momentary nature of consciousness. Each mind- moment is a discrete entity unto itself. In this way we are " dying" each and every moment. This moment will not come again." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti > wrote: > > Dear Htoo Naing, > > > > Thank you for the reminders of death being always present. 27247 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hello RobertK Robert: But anger is a conditioned reality which arises and passes away. So anger is paramattha dhamma, whereas 'I' or 'she' are only concept. Am I right that according to your view both 'anger' and 'I'or 'she' are only conventional truth and neither exist even for an instant in actual truth. Or is there some distinction between anger (which is part of sankhara khandha) and 'I', 'she'? Michael: I have a distinct impression that we are going in circles here. Maybe we should stop this merry go round. If what I said so far nas not rung a bell, thats OK, it is either my lack of skill in explaning things or your lack of accumulations, most likely the former since I have always been a better listener than talker. In any case good talking to you about this, and be happy. Metta Michael >From: "rjkjp1" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael >Date: Sat, 22 Nov 2003 06:37:30 -0000 > >--- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > > > >Robert: I repeat the question: So have I got it right: When the >suttas etc. > > talk about, say, feeling or consciousness(vinnana) , in the >ultimate, true > > sense, > > there is no feeling or consciousness? So in fact there is nothing >at > > all? >=================================== > > > > In conventional sense all those things exist. In ultimate sense >they are > > empty, no abiding essence, not real. So, one can say they exist >and also can > > say they don't exist. Both are right, provided the correct >provisos are > > included. Conventional reality is important, thats were we live >until > > liberation. But we have to understand where we live to curb >ignorance. > > >============= >Dear Michael, >Sorry to ask so many questions; I am still trying to understand >where you and professor Kalupahana feel that the ancient monks of >Theravada taught wrong teaching. My own position is the same as >those venerable monks. > >Could I give an example: >"I am angry; or "She is angry". > >In the Theravada the 'I' or 'she', 'He', "beings" etc are considered >a conventional designation, a concept: > "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, >So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common >usage."(samyutta I, 135) >"These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, >designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata >makes >use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > But anger is a conditioned reality which arises and passes away. So >anger is paramattha dhamma, whereas 'I' or 'she' are only concept. > >Am I right that according to your view both 'anger' and 'I'or 'she' >are only conventional truth and neither exist even for an instant in >actual truth. Or is there some distinction between anger (which is >part of sankhara khandha) and 'I', 'she'? >RobertK 27248 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Shakti - In a message dated 11/21/03 9:54:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, deannajohnsonusa@y... writes: > This past week I have been doing a lot of contemplation on death and dying. > My god mother, aunt died and two of my neighbors died this past week. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm sorry that so much death presented itself to you packed so close together. While death, especially of those who were close to us and who also were such a "presence" as to seem to be eternal, is shocking and terribly upsetting, it also lends a new perspective, a directly felt sense of urgency and a disenchantment with what previously seemed oh so important. I empathize with you in the distress this has created. I would like to encourage you to let your feelings come and go, neither hanging on to them nor pushing them away or covering them up. There is a really strong inclination to bottle up feelings of grief and fear - they hurt a lot; they are a literal heart ache - but I think it is best that we be as aware as possible of them and see them for what they actually are: impersonal, insubstantial, conditioned, and ... impermanent. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27249 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:01am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" <> > Michael: > I have a distinct impression that we are going in circles here. Maybe we > should stop this merry go round. If what I said so far nas not rung a bell, > thats OK, it is either my lack of skill in explaning things or your lack of > accumulations, most likely the former since I have always been a better > listener than talker. In any case good talking to you about this, and be > happy. > ========== Dear Michael, It is probably my poor accumulations. How about looking at another area then. I wrote this letter to a mahayana monk, Venerable Heng Shure of San Francisco. He knows Acharn Sujin very well from meetings in Thailand and America. We had a email discussion a few years ago. perhaps it would be useful if you pointed out the wrong views: Dear Venerable Heng Shure, You referred to my comment: "In another > sense there was no Buddha (and there is no us)- > there were only moments of > changing phenomena." And you said : "This sounds like it could have come right out of one > of the Mahayana > Prajna-Paramita Sutras. However, the Prajna Sutras > would also say even > cittas, cetasikas and rupas cannot be got at. > > Sincerely, in Dharma, H" Glad you could understand what I meant - it might seem a bit strange to some. Now a few words on the nature of dhammas (cittas, cetasikas and rupas- he five aggregates). The word dhamma is often translated as reality. But the word reality in English has connotations of something substantial whereas dhammas , are too evanescent to imagine. As I said recently on this list; Any words we use to describe the nature of realities –impermanent, momentary, temporary, instant by instant- cannot convey the rapidity of the arising and passing away. Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there must be cakkhu pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This special rupa is the result of kamma. But it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this moment the force of the kamma is still working to continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of the body, are also conditioned by different conditions - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned moment. The reason I added this is to highlight the Theravada understanding of dhammas. While the theravada is not quite as radical in its interpretation of reality as the Prajna- parimita sutta, it does nevertheless demolish any ideas of substantiality. I think this needs consideration as we(I mean Theravada people) are prone to talk about "moments" of mind, and so on. However what we mean by moments is rather open to interpretation. However from the Patthana - the last book of the abhidhamma - we learn that "moments" are extraordinarily complex instants in time with influences from past and present factors. The dhammas themselves are not different from the quality they posses. In fact the Atthasalini says that "there is no other thing than the quality born by it" . And no moment is identical with another-It is true that such dhammas as sanna(perception) or vedana (feeling) or vinnana (consciouness) are classified under the same heading but the actual quality is influenced by so many diverse factors that not even one moment of feeling is exactly the same. I write all this as I want to emphasize that any idea of cittas or cetasikas being like some mental atom (This is sort of how I saw things in my early days) is not correct. best wishes robert p.s.: Here is a section from the Mulapariyaya sutta (bodhi p38-39): The Exposition of the Root of all dhammas (sabbadhammamulapariyaya): The Majjhimanikaya-atthakatha (commentary) explains dhammas "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." Now this quote from the commentary may make you wonder if the characteristics are something different from the actual dhammas but of course this is not the case. The majjhimanikaya-tika says "these dhammas are discovered as ultimately real actualities. And though there is no real distinction (between these dhammas and their characteristics), still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device (upacaramatta)." 27250 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/22/03 5:46:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > >>The point I am trying to make is this, 'believers' be they > >>Mahayanist or Theravadins, believe in 'anatta' > and/or 'emptiness'. > >>The Mahayanist *do* believe in anatta, I am not saying that they > >>don't. But belief in the concept is one thing, and understanding > it > >>enough to know that this moment is conditioned and anatta is > another > >>thing. > >> > >------------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Certainly. And, as you say, this goes across "party lines". > >------------------------------------------------------- > > And ultimately there is no 'Mahayana' or 'Theravada' and hence > no "party", but only 'views' and the 'insistence' that one is right > and the other is wrong.;-) > > Howard, I think this is turning to be a Mahayana v.s. Theravada > debate, so I am sure you will agree that we drop this topic of > discussion. I think there will be plenty of opportunities for both > of us to express ourselves though in a different context, that will > somehow show both of us what the other's view is with regard to > this. > Do you agree? > > Metta, > Sukin ============================= I *do* agree. This is a Theravadin list, and that pleases me. I see straight paths and crooked paths arising in all traditions, and my comments were for the purpose only of making what I saw to be a corrective clarification. I have no interest in an Theravada-Mahayana "debate". It would be a boring one in ny case, as I find my Buddhist home to be in the camp of the Theravadins, given that all that I see of value in Mahayana has its basis in the Tipitaka. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27251 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi, Azita (and Victor) - In a message dated 11/22/03 6:13:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, gazita2002@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, Azita - > > > > > These are wonderful quotes, Azita. I love them! I also think > that > >Victor's position is in perfect harmony with them. BTW, "the world" > is the five > >khandhas. All that is pointed to here can be directly discerned > with right > >practice, and the direct knowing of all this is freeing. (The > second quote, > >however, I must admit, comes quite *close* to explicity asserting > the nonexistence of > >a self, but, on careful inspection, it only says that all elements > of all > >khandhas are empty of self, that is - they are not me or mine.) > > Dear Howard, > > What do you mean by 'it only says.....'? is there anything else > to say? If the elements, the Khandhas etc are ultimate truth, what > else is there to be found? > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: My meaning is the following, Azita: Whether Victor suspects there may be a self or does not so suspect, I don't know. But what I understand Victor to be saying, at least in part, is that the Buddha pointed to various things that are useful for us to see in order to spur a radical cognitive and emotive transformation of the mind. In this respect, one may observe that the Buddha, while saying all the things from which, in my opinion, one can validly conclude "There is no self, anywhere, in anything - no core, no true self-existence, no independent status," this was never stated by the Buddha *in so many words*, never given as an axiom to be accepted, but left (in my opinion) as a transformative discovery to be made. [In the second of the two quotes you give, the Buddha says that all worldly dhammas, that is all elements of the khandhas, are not self, something he urged us to look at and see throughout his teaching. Even in this quote, he does not quite assert the axiom "There is no self." He does come close to saying that here, though, perhaps the closest anywhere.] In general, I see the Buddha as directing us to look at whatever arises and to see its emptiness (its not-self nature) and, of course, its impermanence and unsatisfactoriness. Doing so is psychologically and pragmatically different from intellectually accepting an axiom "There is no self," and even different from validly drawing the inference "There is no self". The conclusion that needs to be drawn, from repeated observations of the tilakkhana made with a mind of heightened concentration, attention, mindfulness, and energy, is to be drawn not by reason in particular (though it may be harmless, or even helpful, to do so), but by a total revolution of the mind, a radical turning over at the depths. The Buddha was a skillful spiritual physician, the consumate one, and he proceeded with his treatment in a very precise and subtle manner. ----------------------------------------------------- > > An important > >point, I think, is that the Buddha taught not in order to inculcate > positions, but > >to plant seeds that will sprout in liberation. > > If there is no right understanding of this very present moment, > that this present moment is just those phenomena arising and falling > away so rapidly, then there will be no liberation. For > those 'seeds' to grow, right understanding must arise to be able to > be developed. Wisdom cannot develop unless it arises. Surely it is > right understanding - a reality - and not me - a nonreality, that > will see phenomena for what it really is -Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha. > > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Indeed! ---------------------------------------------- > Azita > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27252 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 8:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, I realize that you may not wish to go on with this discussion about whose right and wrong. I too think that it may lead to a deadlock. However I would like to say something more about where I come from, I hope you don't mind. I remember vaguely, being impressed by the concept of `emptiness', though I am certain that my understanding then was quite superficial as compared to yours. But I do remember accepting the arguments that lead to the concept. Now, since I have come to study the Abhidhamma, I have noted a difference between two types of expressing the Buddha's teachings. Within the Theravada tradition itself, there is on the one hand teachers like Bhikkhu Bodhi, whose writings are very enjoyable to read, quite mesmerizing. On the other hand there is someone like K. Sujin and Nina, whose words do not arouse the emotions as do most other teachers. However I have noted that K. Sujin and Nina's words draw one's attention to the moment, or at least to reflection `about' the moment. This to me is the only true object of knowledge and wisdom. BB and others on the other hand, their words though they be true in terms of `theory', conditions more `thinking about' dhamma, rather than to the experience of the moment. I saw this as a problem two years ago, and later on I heard about saccayana (sp?) and I realized even more, the importance of developing wisdom that was strong enough to not stray from the present moment. But this is all just an ideal. However these past few weeks I think I have become more aware of how tenacious this habit of being drawn in by what I call the `story of dhamma' is. Even hearing K. Sujin who is forever drawing one's attention to the present moment, even this is *read* in the form of a story! We like to translate every concept in terms of a `situation'. Or we try hard to understand a dhamma within context of what has happened in the past. But this is not the way to understand the characteristic of realities! I do not expect to stop this tendency anytime soon (read millions of lifetimes ;-)), but I hope you now get an idea why I object to certain concepts such as `emptiness'. As far as I am concerned, they add to the already existing problem of the `philosopher' in me. Some people think that the discussions on DSG lean toward intellectualism. I think they look at it from the wrong perspective. I think Abhidhamma to a high extent `clarifies' the Buddha's teachings. Those who think that the Suttas in themselves are simple are wrong. They may just be interpreting it simplistically. The Abhidhamma with the help of the commentaries and the sub and sub-sub commentaries greatly help to cut through the fog often created by our own `wrong thinking'. Besides, accepting my own panna to be very weak and knowing how susceptible I am to `well sounding' words, I think it better for me to keep away from writings which will condition more and more papanca. You say that reading Nagarjuna is meant to help condition right view, and I believe that we can never hear enough reminders about annihilationist and eternalist tendencies. But do you think he has said anything *more* than what is already in the Tipitaka? I have a feeling that it might in fact be a diversion, hence risking becoming even more confused, conditioning more doubt perhaps!? Anyway, I appreciate your good intention, and maybe when I retire as you are now, I will pick up one of Nagarjuna's books and read. ;-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Sukin > > Sukin wrote: > On the level of pure reasoning, it is 27253 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/22/03 6:37:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > OK. But keep in mind that if dhammas have an essence then they are not > subject to dependent origination. Dependent origination can only work if > phenomena are devoid of any abiding nature/essence. > ======================= If I'm not mistaken, the sabhava of the Theravadin tradition, for the most part, is not the same as the svabhava properly criticized by Mahayana. As I understand it, the sabhava of an elementary phenomenon such as a sight or hardness or feeling is a distinguishing characteristic. Now "things," whatever their status, do have (or are) characteristics. It is an error, of course, at least in my opinion, to think of a distinguishing characteristic of a dhamma to be its "own" characteristic in the sense of inhering in the "thing" and being independent. There *is* no self-existing thing, and any group of conditions/characteristics are lacking in own-being precisely because they are completely dependently arisen. In later Theravadin usage, I do think that 'sabhava' came closer to the sense of "own being," and with that sense it was denied existence in the Path of Discrimination, a Theravadin work that was included after a while in the Khuddaka Nikaya. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27254 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran meeting Dear Ken, Looking forward to you report after you had your meeting in Cooran. I like to know about your discussion on anapanasati after reading my Co quotes. And details about what you were eating, who did the cooking, animals, etc. And you have a fire outside? When is it? Nina. P.S. Is there no shark danger where you do your surfing? Take care, we need you on dsg. op 22-11-2003 03:21 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Yes, a number of topics have been put forward. Among them are the Anapanasati-sutta and the Satipatthana- sutta. Just a couple of quick ones to get the ball rolling. :-) 27255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:38am Subject: anapanasatisutta, II c anapanasatisutta, II c Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta (Middle length Sayings, I, 10, translated by Ven. Soma): As to the words: , this Co explains that the world is the five khandhas. Covetousness stands for sense desire and grief stands for ill will, which are, as the Co states, the principal hindrances. We read: Nina: I heard in a tape that A. Sujin explained that all the different sections in the contemplation of the body are a means to remind us to be aware of rupa we take for my body. We think that we walk, sit or are breathing, but in reality there are nama and rupa. ***** Nina. 27256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi Larry, op 22-11-2003 01:07 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Thanks for this succinct explanation. I'm a little confused by the > "eye-decade". N: Why? eye is here eyesense, the extremely tiny rupa that has the capability to be impinged on by visible object or colour. It could not arise by itself, it needs the other nine rupas in that group also produced by kamma, thus the 8 inseparable rupas and life-faculty. At the first moment of life kamma produces the rebirth-consciousness and three decads of rupas: one with the heartbase, one with bodysense (but it is not yet developed, infinitely tiny) and one with sex. The decads with eyesense, earsense etc. are produced later on. L: Also, if I see a rock, are you saying the rock is not > kamma result but the seeing is? N: You can only see what impinges on eyesense, colour or visible object. Seeing is vipaka, produced by kamma. The rock consists of different groups of rupa, but the rock as a whole is not impinging on eyesense. Only colour is. But we should not single out colour of rock, then we are not seeing, but thinking. Seeing does not define any shape, it only sees. When you touch the rock tangible object is experienced: three great primaries are tangible object, and one of them at a time only appears: solidity, appearing as hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, appearing as resilience or pressure. Kamma does not produce what we call a rock, only temperature produces rupas which are not of a living body. Nina. 27257 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 6:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi, Nina (and Larry) - In a message dated 11/22/03 1:40:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > N: You can only see what impinges on eyesense, colour or visible object. > Seeing is vipaka, produced by kamma. The rock consists of different groups > of rupa, but the rock as a whole is not impinging on eyesense. Only colour > is. But we should not single out colour of rock, then we are not seeing, but > thinking. Seeing does not define any shape, it only sees. When you touch the > rock tangible object is experienced: three great primaries are tangible > object, and one of them at a time only appears: solidity, appearing as > hardness or softness, temperature, appearing as heat or cold, and motion, > appearing as resilience or pressure. Kamma does not produce what we call a > rock, only temperature produces rupas which are not of a living body. > ============================= Nina, there is, it is said, a group of co-arising rupas, only one of which impinges on a sense door at a time - only one of which appears at a time. At the time that one of these is experienced, where do the others reside? For example, "where" is the solidity at the time it is not felt, but sight is active instead? These others cannot reside in "the rock", for "the rock" is not an existent. Do they reside in some Buddhist equivalent to Plato's world of forms? ;-) Do you see the problem? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27258 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 2:04pm Subject: Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Howard --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > My meaning is the following, Azita: Whether Victor suspects there may > be a self or does not so suspect, I don't know. But what I understand Victor > to be saying, at least in part, is that the Buddha pointed to various things > that are useful for us to see in order to spur a radical cognitive and emotive > transformation of the mind. In this respect, one may observe that the Buddha, > while saying all the things from which, in my opinion, one can validly conclude > "There is no self, anywhere, in anything - no core, no true self- existence, > no independent status," this was never stated by the Buddha *in so many words*, > never given as an axiom to be accepted, but left (in my opinion) as a > transformative discovery to be made. [In the second of the two quotes you give, the > Buddha says that all worldly dhammas, that is all elements of the khandhas, are > not self, something he urged us to look at and see throughout his teaching. > Even in this quote, he does not quite assert the axiom "There is no self." He > does come close to saying that here, though, perhaps the closest anywhere.] In > general, I see the Buddha as directing us to look at whatever arises and to > see its emptiness (its not-self nature) and, of course, its impermanence and > unsatisfactoriness. Doing so is psychologically and pragmatically different from > intellectually accepting an axiom "There is no self," and even different from > validly drawing the inference "There is no self". The conclusion that needs to > be drawn, from repeated observations of the tilakkhana made with a mind of > heightened concentration, attention, mindfulness, and energy, is to be drawn not > by reason in particular (though it may be harmless, or even helpful, to do > so), but by a total revolution of the mind, a radical turning over at the > depths. The Buddha was a skillful spiritual physician, the consumate one, and he > proceeded with his treatment in a very precise and subtle manner. > ----------------------------------------------------- This is very well stated. Very often we see people state things like "There is no self" and then they begin to formulate ideas about what that means: in relation to themselves, other selves, and the world. However, the idea of self is still unconsciously there in these people, so these theories are distortions of reality. That is why the Buddha didn't teach, "There is no self"; he taught that everything we take for self, the five khandhas, isn't self. This is an important distinction. "There is no self" is a position, a mental fabrication, while, "Everything we take for self isn't self" is a path of inquiry. One leads to false views while the other leads to direct realization of the truth. > ======================== > With metta, > Howard Metta, James 27259 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Htoo Naing, Christine, Shakti and others, Do you think that we have difficulties with death bc in one sense, we haven't experienced it yet in this life. I know this statement will draw comments about death of every moment, but what I mean is that we have an idea of lobha, dosa, good feeling, bad feeling bc we experience this every day, but we don't experience our own 'conventional' death every day. One of my ways of remembering death is to drive thro a cemetary, which is close by. Its a pleasant old cemetary, with lots of curlews - birds that the indigenous people believe cry out when there are spirits around - their call is very eery. As I drive thro. I remind myself that I too will end up here one day. Its interesting, in that I am getting to know the names on the headstones and I say hello to them all!!!!! When I was about 11-12 yrs old, my girlfriend and I used to ride our bikes thro an old cemetary, and she had a fascination for the graves. She actually died quite young. Again when I was in my early 20's, a boyfriend and I used to go to the cemetary at night to see how scared we could make ourselves. Cemetaries are actually very serene places. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Christine, Shakti and all, To Htoo, I hope you won't think me rude, and I did like your comment "We are being dead tick by tick" it is unusual English and very cute, I hope you don't mind if I use it occasionally here on dsg. Thank you so much for your wonderful reminders on death. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27260 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:06pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Azita. > > Azita: > I don't believe the same logic that applies to a > person also applies to dhammas. > > > Michael: > OK. But keep in mind that if dhammas have an essence then they are not > subject to dependent origination. Dependent origination can only work if > phenomena are devoid of any abiding nature/essence. > > Metta > Michael dear Michael, I'm not sure what you mean by 'essence'. Do you mean something lasting, something that arose once and has never ceased? If this is so, then I agree that D.O. does not apply. Is understanding not a dhamma? Does it not exist when it arises? Yes, it disappears again and that particular dhamma never arises again, but more understanding can arise at a later time, conditioned, possibly, by previously arisen understanding. We are being dead tick by tick, thank you Htoo Naing, Azita. 27261 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 4:42pm Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Azita, Htoo Naing, Shakti,Howard and All, I don't have any fear of death myself, it is the attachment to others that makes me fear *their* deaths. A selfish wanting of things to remain as they are - I don't want to have a 'person-shaped hole' in my life. I think this is a very common feeling - often one can hear couples who love each other deeply, and who have been together a long time, say "I hope I go before Mary does - I couldn't bear to live without her". Just lobha ... You, also, will have seen in your daily work that normal run-of-the- mill death in western hospitals is not a spectacular thing to be feared. Most people are not conscious. Most are relatively pain free. Sometimes the dividing line between life and death is difficult to tell except with sensitive machines. And there is an echo of Shakti's question, even by those sitting with the dying, "Where did they go?" and even, "When did they go - I was sitting right here, I just looked away for a moment ..." I think the change in culture - once people died at home surrounded by family, to dying in a regimented, sterile hospital - has meant a growth in the fear of death, by making it unfamiliar, unknown and mysterious. I grew up going to a Christian Church which was surrounded by its own graveyard and headstones. To get to the Church door, one had to pass through a grassy lane between graves. Families in the district had 'family plots', the newly deceased were interred with the remains of already dead loved ones. Kids played around and between the graves. It was never scary, it was seen as a natural end to life. People would put fresh flowers on the graves after Church and some would have a talk and tell the dead relatives the latest happenings - I'm not sure if they really believed they were hovering around - but people add their own hopes to the basic teachings of any religion. And the Christian Religion does not teach anatta. It is kamma and its unpredictability that is a little unnerving for me - especially the type of kamma that may have been committed aeons ago and only finds its chance to have influence at the rebirth moment. Still - no control, so useless to worry I suppose. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" 27262 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 5:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Nina: "Kamma does not produce what we call a rock, only temperature produces rupas which are not of a living body." Hi Nina, Does this mean the rupa that is the object of consciousness (e.g.,visible data) is different from the rupa we call a rock? Can we call this object of consciousness living rupa? Larry 27263 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 7:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Howard, I believe that both of us recognize that the idea "there is no self" is not what the Buddha taught. Is it possible that this idea, itself a metaphysical extreme, can be validly inferred from what the Buddha's teaching? I don't think so. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Azita (and Victor) - [snip] Doing so is psychologically and pragmatically different from > intellectually accepting an axiom "There is no self," and even different from > validly drawing the inference "There is no self". [snip] 27264 From: Date: Sat Nov 22, 2003 3:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi, Victor - In a message dated 11/22/03 10:36:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I believe that both of us recognize that the idea "there is no self" > is not what the Buddha taught. > > Is it possible that this idea, itself a metaphysical extreme, can be > validly inferred from what the Buddha's teaching? > > I don't think so. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Here may be where we differ. I think that in one sense of 'self', what I call the empirical or conventional sense, it cannot be inferred, but in what I would call the philosophical sense it can. In any case, as indicated, I don't think the inferential aspects are all that important. In my opinion, liberation and enlightenment are not about intellectual positions or inference. ----------------------------------------------- > > Peace, > Victor > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27265 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] the usuals Nina Found this message from you as I was clearing out my mail. Apologies for not having answered earlier. Just to let you know that your regards were passed on to Jack and Oi, and that they sent best wishes back to you and Lodewick. Sorry for not mentioning this earlier. Like you, I see the need to keep hearing about "the usuals", and I never tire of it. In fact sometimes when the discussion gets into difficult, complicated areas I find myself wishing for the 'fresh air' of some good reminders on the usuals! Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jonothan, > op 17-10-2003 14:31 schreef Jonothan Abbott op > jonoabb@y...: > we had discussion with Ajarn Sujin at the Foundation, along > > with Betty and also (surprise) Jack and Oi from California. > N: Please my warmest regards to both of them. I regret not being > there to > see them also. > J: Topics discussed included, in addition to 'the ususals' (seeing > and > > visible object of the present moment etc), kalayana mitta... > N: The usuals, a short reminder, but so helpful today. Lodewijk and > I had a > beautiful nature hike in crisp, sunny whether, enjoying the autumn > (fall) > colours. I thought of "the usuals", and the fact that we hear this > year in > year out and that we never have enough of it. Why? We are captured > by the > pleasant objects through the eyes and immediately create stories > about them. > I had to laugh, I was doing this all the time and also thinking of > your > words about "the usuals". Such a good time with your reminder, it > is > wonderful. It is so obvious that only visible object is seen, but > it is so > enticing! > With much appreciation, > Nina. 27266 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:29am Subject: Nibbana - transcendental or not? Dear Group, I am reading around the subject of nibanna. In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta MN 26.18 the section on Enlightenment "Then, bhikkhus, being myself subject to birth, having understood the danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbana, I attained the unborn supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; being myself subject to ageing, having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, seeking the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana, I attained the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; {repeats the same for sickness, death, sorrow, defilement} The knowledge and vision arose in me: "My deliverance is unshakeable; this is my last birth; now, there is no renewal of being'. I have an initial question about nibbana. I take the meaning of transcendant to mean 'going beyond the limits of ordinary experience', 'not based on experience, intuitive, innate in the mind'. In the Pali-English dictionary, it says: "Import and Range of the Term. A. Nibbana is purely and solely an ethical state, to be reached in this birth by ethical practices, contemplation and insight. It is therefore NOT TRANSCENDENTAL. The first and most important way to reach N. is by means of the eightfold Path, and all expressions which deal with the realisation of emancipation from lust, hatred and illusion apply to practical habits and not to speculative thought. N. is realised in one's heart; to measure it with a speculative measure is to apply a wrong standard." http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html In the introduction to the Majjhima Nikaya, Bhikkhu Bodhi says: "The Buddha does not devote many words to a philosophical definition of Nibbaana. One reason is that Nibbaana, being unconditioned, TRANSCENDANT, and supramundane, does not easily lend itself to definition in terms of concepts that are inescapably tied to the conditioned, manifest, and mundane." Is Nibbana transcendental or not? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27267 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Larry & Jon - ... > ============================ > What in the world could one be aware of when one is aware of > a consciousness but not of the object of that consciousness? If > that occurred, then > being aware of one consciousness would be no different from being > aware of another. I don't see it that way at all :-)). When there are moments of consciousness accompanied by awareness, whether awareness of consciousness or of one of the sense-door objects, it's not as though the 'normal' experiencing occurring at that time (e.g., reading a book, walking to work, eating lunch) is suspended or impaired and there is *only* awareness and/or its object. The consciousness with awareness arises together with (or in addition to) the 'normal' experiencing, but because there is awareness then whatever is the object of the awareness is experienced more clearly for what it truly is. Thus if there was awareness of, for example, seeing consciousness at a time when both seeing and hearing are occurring (as appears to us to be the case), the seeing consciousness would be experienced more clearly as it is truly is; there would be no doubt that the consciousness in question was seeing consciousness and not hearing consciousness. To me, the idea of awareness experiencing both seeing consciousness and its object at one and the same moment implies a unity of consciousness-and-object which the teachings are at pains to refute. May I ask whether this is a 'model' that you find mentioned in the suttas? Jon 27268 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure again Hi Icaro, Thanks for joining in the “Pure Again” thread;-) So glad you came out of Jungle Bootcamp with flying colours. .... --- icarofranca wrote: > Yeah! Back to Air Base!!!! > My bootcamp is ending at last!!! > I will post here at DSG my bootcamp photos... muddled, hanged up > at ropes, eating jungle food with some reluctant comrades around > me... > "Scenes of a Bootcamp !!!" or " The practical uses of the Bamboo > Grove´s Sutta" > I always kept in my mind the Buddha´s Sermon at Bamboo grove, and > the paramount ideas of Sammuit-Sacca and Paramattha-Sacca! > > "Hercules Squad!!! Go Go Go !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" ..... New members might think you’ve caught a touch of jungle fever, but I’d like to assure them that this is normal for Icaro;-) I’m looking f/w to the jungle bootcamp photos* and practical applications of sammuti sacca (conventional truths) and paramatha sacca (absolute truths). I hope you will continue this discussion with Michael B, our very articulate and well-read new member (not to be confused with Michael the Buddha (no word for a long time), Mike (being a little mysterious) or a couple of other lurking Michaels). Michael B is from Brazil too!! ..... > Jungle survival is a hard road to step on! > 10% of our Hercules Squad suffered up casualities... injuries > ankles, slashed toes and many grrrls saying "Oh My goodness... I > cannot bear such efforts..." ..... Meanwhile this grrrl injured her ankle in city jungle survival. Connie meanwhile has been swimming with Conditions - a few splutters and gulps but she’s become a pro on decisive support condition. We looking forward to help with the basic strokes for other conditions. .... > Mike, you could to be there to raise up the grrrrrls´ fighting > spirit...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH!!!!!!!!!! .... Hope that encourages him to contribute more often here;-) .... > Gosh!!! The Hon. Kevin Sorbo could be there too to salute our > Hercules Squad!!! "You all boys and girls done well at Jungle > Bootcamp !!!" .... I’ll have to find a translator. Talking of which, I even followed your link and checked out the German Vism recently, looking for a reference. Can’t think of any other big news here you may have missed unless you consider James celebrating his anniversary on DSG or James and I finding an area of agreement as big news;-) Meanwhile, the StarKids keep him on his toes, especially one Chinese 13 year old whose hobby is ‘pushing limits’. Thanks for sending postcards and diary entries from Bootcamp, Icaro. Look forward to hearing more from you and so glad you appreciated the relevance of Bamboo grove suttas and paramattha sacca all the while. It shows your saddha (confidence) and appreciation of the Buddha’s teachings. To show we’ve been considering tangles, bamboo thickets and jungle knives in your absence, let me re-quote these apt reminders about the real jungle tangle and way out: Vism ch1,1 >While the Blessed One was living at Savatthi, it seems, a certain deity came to him in the night, and in order to do away with his doubts he asked this question: `The inner tangle and the outer tangle- `This generation is entangled in a tangle. `And so I ask of Gotama this question: `Who succeeds in disentangling this tangle?' (S.i, 13). 2. Here is the meaning in brief. Tangle is a term for the network of craving. For that is a tangle in the sense of lacing together, like the tangle called network of branches in bamboo thickets, etc., because it goes on arising again and again up and down among the objects [of consciousness] beginning with what is visible. But it is called the inner tangle and the outer tangle because it arises [as craving] for one's own requisites and another's, for one's own person and another's, and for the internal and external bases [for consciousness]. Since it arises in this way, this generation is entangled in a tangle. As the bamboos, etc., are entangled by the bamboo tangle, etc., so too this generation, in other words, this order of living beings, is all entangled by the tangle of craving- the meaning is that it is intertwined, interlaced by it.< ..... Vism, Ch1, 7 >Just as a man standing on the ground and taking up a well-sharpened knife might disentangle a great tangle of bamboos, so too, he-this bhikkhu who possesses the six things, namely, this virtue, and this concentration described under the heading of consciousness, and this threefold understanding, and this ardour--, standing on the ground of virtue and taking up with the hand of protective-understanding well-sharpened on the stone of concentration, might disentangle, cut away and demolish all the tangle of craving that had overgrown his own life's continuity. But it is at the moment of the Path that he is said to be disentangling that tangle : at the moment of fruition he has disentangled the tangle and is worthy of the highest offerings in the word with its deities. That is why the Blessed One said: `When a wise man, established well in Virtue, `Develops Consciousness and Understanding, `Then as a bhikkhu ardent and sagacious `He succeeds in disentangling this tangle'.< ***** Metta, Sarah *If one day you suddenly find they (the jungle pix) have disappeared, don’t get alarmed - we’re having to regularly cull pix other than the ones in the member folder as we keep reaching the album limit. ================================================== 27269 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > I don't think so. They are definitely distinguishable, and > they are > distinguishable on the basis of their characteristics. I don't deny > this at all. I > simple say that they never occur on their own, and that is what I > mean by their being inseparable. > > With metta, > Howard It is of course true that dhammas do not occur 'on their own', but what do you see as being the significance of that, especially in terms of the direct experience of dhammas by awareness? According to the teachings, dhammas are to be experienced by awareness and/or panna individually; that I think is the whole point of identifying the individual dhammas that are the 'soil' of understanding. I don't want to get into a discussion on semantics, but I would not have said that 'never occurring on their own' and 'inseparable' were the same thing at all. More to the point perhaps, is this something you find mentioned in the suttas, i.e., the aspect of inseparability as opposed to the characteristics/aspects of impermanence, no-self and conditioned nature? (I know you're not strong on references, Howard, but if you come across any I'd be interested to see them). Jon 27270 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / Pure again Hi Thomas, Michael, Howard and Victor too have already replied to your comments as I recall, so I’ll just add a little only. --- nordwest wrote: > Dear Sarah, I really find the word pure perfectly right. It ia an easy > english word to use. What is this wholesome or unwholesome? ..... These terms are translations of the Pali terms ‘kusala’ and ‘akusala’. Some mental states such as kindness, generosity and wisdom are kusala (wholesome) and some, such as anger, attachment and ignorance are akusala (unwholesome). We can say the kusala ones are ‘pure’, but as we have different understandings of what this word means, it may be confusing. .... >What is > this cittas and critters? - I am joking, as you may imagine. .... It’s a good question and it doesn’t matter if we call them critters either;-) (They’ve been called far worse, I’m sure. They're pronounced more like cheetahs;-)) According to the Buddha’s teachings as we find in the Pali canon, what we take for ‘mind’ or ‘consciousness’ are really a continuous flow of cittas or momentary elements of consciousness, each one conditioning the next like an electrical current. While each citta is conditioned by the last one, when it arises, the previous one has completely fallen away, never to return. So there is no underlying pure mind. Each citta is accompanied by many mental factors or cetasikas such as those we discussed above under kusala and akusala. Simply put, a kusala citta is accompanied by kusala cetasikas and vice versa. You may find it helpful to look at RobM’s slides for some basic details. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Htoo is also giving details in his posts about these cetasikas. Please ask any other questions. .... >Please let > me exaplin why "pure" is such a useful word, it arises from this > understanding: > > Imagine the mind as a mirror in which reality is reflected. Like this > you can understand how mind works. It is not seeing things directly, but > contemplating things, or refecting upon things. > Originally the mind was a Pure Mind, this means it refelcted without any > thought this what is, and all that is, without limitations in space and > time. .... When was this? I’ll wait for you before I add anything more. Metta, Sarah ==== 27271 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry --- Larry wrote: ... > I have had a change of mind. I don't think consciousness by itself > can be an object of consciousness. I would say consciousness ALWAYS > arises with cetasikas. Are you saying that if consciousness alone can be the object of awareness, this would mean or imply that consciousness arises or can arise without cetasikas? I'm not with you on this. Perhaps you could elaborate. > ... The 121 consciousnesses are actually 121 > combinations of the 52 cetasikas. Consciousness as object would be > one of the 121 combinations. Not quite. Remember, there are said to be 4 paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika, rupa and nibbana. The 121 consciousnesses are actually 121 cittas; arising with various combinations of the 52 cetasikas. Some of the different kinds of cittas have the same combinations of cetasikas (for example, each of the 5 sense-door consciousnesses is accompanied by exactly the same cetasikas, the difference lies in the doorway through which they experience their object). Consciousness as object means that it is the citta rather than one of the cetasikas that is object of consciousness/awareness. Does this make sense? Jon 27272 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: Perhaps 'accumulations' is the wrong word. What I meant is that whether a pleasant or unpleasant rupa arises is at least partly a kammic consequence. ... Well, old kamma still has its effect, and the pleasantness/unpleasantness of what arises still is conditioned by prior kamma. Jon: As I understand it, past kamma conditions whether a pleasant or unpleasant rupa *is experienced* (not, 'arises'). The arising of rupas is conditioned by an altogether different set of conditions, and, except in the case of certain rupas of the body, has nothing to do with an individual's past kamma. I think we have to distinguish between 2 different sets of factors: (a) the factors governing the *arising* of rupas and, (b) the factors governing the experiencing of rupas by sense-door consciousness. Howard: Yes, vedana is a mental feature/function. The question is of its dependency. I am merely saying that the rupa itself is a condition for the particular vedana that arises. Jon: I'm not sure that that is so (but in any event is quite different to saying that the rupa carries its own vedanic flavour!). However, the extent to which a rupa as object could be a condition for the feeling that accompanies the subsequent consciousness must be limited. For example, if the consciousness that follows the moment of experiencing the rupa is kusala consciousness, then the feeling could not be unpleasant feeling, no mater how 'unpleasant' the rupa. I would not see the relationship as being anywhere near as direct as is suggested by the analogy you give below. Jon Howard: [Analogy: A surface that reflects only red light is seen as red. The seeing of redness is not something in the surface, nor is the seen redness, itself, something in the surface. But a "black" surface will not be seen as red - so the seen redness is dependent on the surface, and we might say, in that sense, that it is inherent in the surface. Likewise, the pleasantness of a rupa depndes in part on the rupa, and, in that sense, may be described as inherent in it. Of course, all talk of inherency is and should be suspect! It is a dangerous manner of speech.] 27273 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 4:20am Subject: Re: Reply to James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > Jimbo: > > Thank you for your letter, and thank you for your > good words and compliments. I am also quite happy at > this report, but I must not forget everything else. > > Anyway, there are a few questions waiting for you: > > > 1. Is there someone who is the chief monk in each > Buddhist temple, such as the Grand Abbott, Grand > father, Grand piano? > > 2.How do I deal with mean students? Beat them up? How > can I get more friends? > > 3. Any other advice you have for me? > > Please reply > > Philip Chui Hi Star Kid Philip! Jimbo?? Please refer to me only as James, Mr. James, or Mr. Mitchell. Because I am your elder, referring to me with any other name isn't showing me proper respect; and I'm sure you don't want to do that, do you? ;-) I am glad that my other letter pleased you and gave you some food for thought. Okay, let me get to your questions in this letter: Question: Is there someone who is the chief monk in each Buddhist temple, such as the Grand Abbott, Grand father, Grand piano? Answer: None of the above. The chief monk of a temple is just referred to as the `Abbott'. Question: How do I deal with mean students? Beat them up? How can I get more friends? Answer: Physical or verbal violence is never an answer to anything. If a student is mean, you should be especially nice to him or her until they start to act nice. If that doesn't work after a while, stay away from that student. The way to get more friends is to have the virtue of friendliness. You have to be someone who others want to be friends with. But if you want a lot of friends just so that you can feel good about yourself, feel powerful, or to boast to other people, you will end up with no friends. Friends are there to support and help each other, not use each other. Question: Any other advice you have for me? Answer: Yes, you need to start being nicer to your sister. You may not see it, but she looks up to you as a role model and an example. You need to be patient with her and show her the difference between right and wrong, by doing only right things yourself. She is counting on you. I hope that answers your questions. If you have anymore questions, don't hesitate to ask. Metta, James 27274 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I am not quite sure what you are trying to argue or why. OK, to save any further to-ing and fro-ing, here is the last post of mine on the issue we were discussing (copied from msg No. 26541). << << << You start by asking the question, 'Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi?' I think the short answer is that the Buddha taught everything that needs to be known about the path leading to enlightenment. One of the most important of these is the 8 factors of which the Noble Eightfold Path is comprised. Samma samadhi is 1 of these. To my understanding, these path factors are the factors that accompany a moment of path consciousness. They are not factors to be developed separately and individually and that somehow coalesce when they have reached a certain degree. >> >> >> And for convenience I have also copied just below your original post to Larry and me. Hope all is clear now ;-)). Happy to continue the discussion if you would like to. Jon Victor wrote: << << << Hi Larry, Jon, and all, Perhaps the way to have a clear idea why the Buddha recommended right concentration/samma samadhi or what is the exact relationship between tranquility and concentration in samma samadhi is to develop right concentration/samma samadhi itself. Why did the Buddha teach right concentration/samma samadhi? As a factor of the Noble Eightfold Path, it leads to the cessation of dukkha. Specifically, Let me quote from MN14 Culadukkahkkhandha Sutta* the following passage: How does one attain to the rapture and pleasure that are apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or to something more peaceful than that? With right concentration/samma samadhi. Without right concentration/samma samadhi, one would still be attracted to sensual pleasures. >> >> >> 27275 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:34am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 42-45 42. Some,(16) however, say that the eye is sensitivity of primary elements that have fire in excess, and that the ear, nose, and tongue are sensitivity of primary elements that have [respectively] air, earth, and water in excess, and that the body is that of all [four equally]. Others say that the eye is sensitivity of those that have fire in excess, and that the ear, nose, tongue, and body are [sensitivity] of those that have [respectively] aperture, air, water, and earth in excess. They should be asked to quote a sutta. They will certainly not find one. 42. keci pana ``tejaadhikaana.m bhuutaana.m pasaado cakkhu, vaayupathaviiaapaadhikaana.m bhuutaana.m pasaadaa sotaghaanajivhaa, kaayo sabbesampii''ti vadanti. apare ``tejaadhikaana.m pasaado cakkhu, vivaravaayuaapapathavaadhikaana.m sotaghaanajivhaakaayaa''ti vadanti. te vattabbaa ``sutta.m aaharathaa''ti. addhaa suttameva na dakkhissanti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 43. But some give as their reason that it is because these [several sensitivities] are [respectively] aided by visible data, etc., as qualities of fire, and so on.(17) They should be asked, 'But who has said that visible data, etc., are qualities of fire and so on? [445] For it is not possible to say of primary elements, which remain always inseparable,(18) that "This is a quality of this one, that is a quality of that one" '. 43. keci panettha ``tejaadiina.m gu.nehi ruupaadiihi anugayhabhaavato''ti kaara.na.m dassenti. te vattabbaa ``ko panevamaaharuupaadayo tejaadiina.m gu.naa'ti. avinibbhogavuttiisu hi bhuutesu aya.m imassa gu.no aya.m imassa gu.noti na labbhaa vattu''nti. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 44. Then they may say: 'Just as you assume, from excess of some primary element in such and such material things, the [respective] functions of upholding (sandhaara.na), etc., for earth, etc., so from finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess(19) in material things that have fire in excess, one may assume that visible data, etc., are [respectively] qualities of these'. They should be told: 'We might assume it if there were more odour in cotton, which has earth in excess, than in fermented liquor, which has water in excess, and if the colour of cold water were weaker than the colour of hot water, which has heat in excess. 44. athaapi vadeyyu.m ``yathaa tesu tesu sambhaaresu tassa tassa bhuutassa adhikataaya pathaviiaadiina.m sandhaara.naadiini kiccaani icchatha, eva.m tejaadiadhikesu sambhaaresu ruupaadiina.m adhikabhaavadassanato icchitabbameta.m ruupaadayo tesa.m gu.naa''ti. te vattabbaa ``iccheyyaama, yadi aapaadhikassa aasavassa gandhato pathaviiadhike kappaase gandho adhikataro siyaa, tejaadhikassa ca u.nhodakassa va.n.nato siitudakassa va.n.no parihaayetha''. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 45a. 'But since neither of these is a fact, you should therefore give up conjecturing the difference to be in the supporting primary elements. Just as the natures of visible objects, etc., are dissimilar from each other though there is no difference in the primaries that form a single group, so too are eye-sensitivity, etc., though no other cause of their difference exists'.(20) This is how it should be taken. 45a. yasmaa paneta.m ubhayampi natthi, tasmaa pahaayeta.m etesa.m nissayabhuutaana.m visesakappana.m, ``yathaa avisesepi ekakalaape bhuutaana.m ruuparasaadayo a~n~nama~n~na.m visadisaa honti, eva.m cakkhupasaadaadayo avijjamaanepi a~n~nasmi.m visesakaara.ne''ti gahetabbameta.m. 45b. But what is it that is not common to them all?(21) It is the kamma itself that is the reason for their difference. Therefore their difference is due to difference of kamma, not to difference of primary elements; for if there were difference of primary elements, sensitivity itself would not arise, since the Ancients have said: 'Sensitivity is of those that are equal, not of those that are unequal'. 45b. ki.m pana ta.m ya.m a~n~nama~n~nassa asaadhaara.na.m? kammameva nesa.m visesakaara.na.m. tasmaa kammavisesato etesa.m viseso, na bhuutavisesato. bhuutavisese hi sati pasaadova na uppajjati. samaanaana~nhi pasaado, na visamaanaananti poraa.naa. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Notes: (16) ' "Some" are certain Mahasanghikas; for among these Vasudhamma says this: "In the eye fire is in excess; in the ear, air; in the nose, earth; in the tongue, water; in the body all are equal" ' (Pm.444). (17) ' "As qualities of fire, and so on": [aided] by visible data as the illuminating [quality] of heat, which is called lighting up; by sound [as a quality] of air, by odour [as a quality] of earth, by flavour [as a quality] of water called spittle--so according to the first theory [that of "others"] because they need to be assisted by such and such qualities of primaries: what is meant is that they have to be helped in apprehending visible data and so on. This theory holds that the quality is the ability of the eye, etc., to light up [respectively] visible data, etc., only when associated with the reasons that are their accessories consisting of light, etc., and aperture's state of decisive support for ear consciousness. Aperture is taken in due order, as are fire, etc., since it is absence of primaries. Or alternatively, when others intend that aperture is a quality of primaries, as visible data, etc., are, then the qualities of primaries are construable in their order thus: [aided] by visible data and light [as a quality] of fire, by sound [as a quality] of aperture called space, by odour [as a quality] of air, by flavour [as a quality] of water, by tangible data [as a quality] of earth' (Pm.445). (18) The four primaries are held to be inseparable and not to exist separate from each other; cf. quotation from the 'Ancients' in par.45. Pm. says: 'Excess is in capability, not in quantity, otherwise their inseparability would be illogical' (Pm.451). (19) ' "From finding visibility, etc., [respectively] in a state of excess": from finding them associated with these differences, namely, the bright visible datum in fire, sound audible through its individual essence in air, the odour beginning with surabhi perfume in earth, and the sweet taste of water; thus "visible data, etc., are the [respective] qualities of these". This is according to the first theory, and he has stated the conclusion (uttara) that follows, beginning with "we might assume" in terms of that. The second is confuted in the same way. Or alternatively, "Then they may say", etc., can be taken as said emphasizing, in order to confute it, the theory of Kanada, which asserts that the eye, etc., are respectively made of fire, space, earth, water, and air, that have visible data, etc., as their respective qualities' (Pm.445). (20) In the P.T.S. text and the Sinhalese Hewavitarne text the word "ekakalaape", 'that form a single group', occurs in this sentence but is not in the Harvard text. (21) 'If there is no differentiation according to primaries, what then is the reason for the differentiation of the eye, and so on? Though the kamma that is produced by the longing for a selfhood (individual personality) with five sense-bases is one only, still it should be taken as called "not common to them all" and "difference of kamma" because it is the cause of the differentiation of the eye, and so on. For it is not a condition for the ear through the same particular difference through which it is a condition for the eye, since, if it were, it would then follow that there was no distinction between the faculties. Because of the words, "At the moment of rebirth-linking, exalted volition is a condition, as kamma condition, for the kinds of materiality due to kamma performed"(P.tn.) it must be recognized that a single volition is kamma condition for all kinds of materiality due to kamma performed that come into existence at the moment of rebirth-linking. For if the volition were different, then, when there came to be the arising of the faculties, it would follow that the materiality due to kamma performed was generated by limited and exalted kamma. And rebirth-linking that is one is not generated by a plurality of kinds of kamma. Thus it is established that the arising of the plurality of the faculties is due to a single kamma' (Pm.446). 27276 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Jon and everyone, How are you? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Howard > More to the point perhaps, is this something > you find mentioned in the suttas, i.e., the aspect of inseparability > as opposed to the characteristics/aspects of impermanence, no-self > and conditioned nature? (I know you're not strong on references, > Howard, but if you come across any I'd be interested to see them). > > Jon > Have you ever experienced anything that is in the suttas? Have you ever experienced anything that is not in the suttas? Have you ever experienced a sutta? Which comparisons are without conceit? What is happening right now? (Hint: It is not in a book.) A foetus in the process of being aborted is more aware of what is happening at the present moment than a person attempting to link an experience to something they have read. Awareness has no prerequisites. Awareness does not need to be identified and / or categorised in order for it to be awareness. The identification and categorisation of awareness is the basis for proliferation of unawareness. The suttas are not more to the point. The suttas require a whole lot of existing and pre - existing culture (yes, yoghurt) to make any sense at all. The suttas are less to the point. Awareness ceases the moment thinking cuts in. What do you think? All the best Herman 27277 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Azita, Shakti, Christine and Dhamma Friends, Death is a shocking matter to all. Let alone own death, death of near relatives causes shocking. There are many people who had escaped from near death. Each time they think about the event they still feel shocking. This will go on as long as the view is not changed. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, Christine, Shakti and others, ------------------------------------------------------------- Azita : Do you think that we have difficulties with death bc in one sense, we haven't experienced it yet in this life.( Azita ) ----------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Everybody knows that death occurs once in a life. But there are people who had experienced near death even though it was not the death itself. They will change their attitute after the event. (Htoo ) -------------------------------------------------------------- A : I know this statement will draw comments about death of every moment, but what I mean is that we have an idea of lobha, dosa, good feeling, bad feeling bc we experience this every day, but we don't experience our own 'conventional' death every day. -------------------------------------------------------------- H : Exactly. ------------------------------------------------------------- A : One of my ways of remembering death is to drive thro a cemetary, which is close by. Its a pleasant old cemetary, with lots of curlews - birds that the indigenous people believe cry out when there are spirits around - their call is very eery. As I drive thro. I remind myself that I too will end up here one day. Its interesting, in that I am getting to know the names on the headstones and I say hello to them all!!!!! --------------------------------------------------------- H : In a Myanmar saying, '' Attending a funeral equates visiting monastry ten times.'' That means_ Visiting monastry and meeting with Dhamma teachers and being taught by them for ten times equates with attending a funeral, at which realization of impermance and Dhamma thinking arise quickly than the former. ------------------------------------------------------------ A : When I was about 11-12 yrs old, my girlfriend and I used to ride our bikes thro an old cemetary, and she had a fascination for the graves. She actually died quite young. ------------------------------------------------------------- H : Just remember my wrong usage when I was in university. But you may be right in your usage. When I was in university, I had friends both boys and girls or men and women. One day I used the word 'girlfriend ' because she was a girl and my friend. I was done. My bookish friend told me and reminded me not to use the word loosely. It is someone like a wife without marriage. I got the point. Your friend was fond of visiting graves and died young. But what I remind is not that way. Just tp prepare sensibly. Because there is difference between death in desparity and death in clarity. ( Htoo ) ---------------------------------------------------------- Azita : Again when I was in my early 20's, a boyfriend and I used to go to the cemetary at night to see how scared we could make ourselves. ---------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : The same principle applies as above. I got the point. Once we as teenagers tested those sorts of thing like sitting in the hut in a cemetry. Nothing happened to us apart from bad smelling of burnt bodies. ( Society to society difference exists ) ---------------------------------------------------------- Cemetaries are actually very serene places. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Christine, Shakti and all, ------------------------------------------------ Azita :To Htoo, I hope you won't think me rude, and I did like your comment "We are being dead tick by tick" it is unusual English and very cute, I hope you don't mind if I use it occasionally here on dsg. ---------------------------------------- Htoo : Not at all. And of course you can ------------------------------------------------- Azita :Thank you so much for your wonderful reminders on death. ------------------------------------------ Htoo: ( As people in general say ) You're welcome. ------------------------------------------------ Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. ------------------------------------------------ Same to you With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27278 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:18am Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Christine and Dhamma Friends, Death is not so simple. There are many definitions of death, many meanings of death. Social, cultural, judicial, medical, political and so on will have influence on definition of death. Even sensitive machines cannot say exactly the accurate point of death. The machines have to take the data that the person concerned is dead and then they have to process them and then they have to shoe up in the display. Cittakkhana is so brief that it exists just a moment. As I have posted death of the present life and the first consciousness of the next life is stick together without interruption. The first consciousness in a life is Patisandhi Citta. But that Satta may not be born if he or she is not Oppapatika Sattas like Deva, Brahma, Peta, Niriyans and has to be in an egg shell or in a womb of the mother or in wet surface. Regarding the dividing line between Cuticitta of dying Satta and Patisandhicitta of next Satta, only The Buddha will know that. Great Arahats with special power knows where the Satta gone but not the dividing line. May you all have constant reminder Sati that all are ready to die. ( So no reason to arise Mana ) With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Azita, Htoo Naing, Shakti,Howard and All, > > I don't have any fear of death myself, it is the attachment to others > that makes me fear *their* deaths. A selfish wanting of things to > remain as they are - I don't want to have a 'person-shaped hole' in > my life. I think this is a very common feeling - often one can hear > couples who love each other deeply, and who have been together a long > time, say "I hope I go before Mary does - I couldn't bear to live > without her". Just lobha ... > You, also, will have seen in your daily work that normal run-of- the- > mill death in western hospitals is not a spectacular thing to be > feared. Most people are not conscious. Most are relatively pain > free. Sometimes the dividing line between life and death is > difficult to tell except with sensitive machines. And there is an > echo of Shakti's question, even by those sitting with the > dying, "Where did they go?" and even, "When did they go - I was > sitting right here, I just looked away for a moment ..." > I think the change in culture - once people died at home surrounded > by family, to dying in a regimented, sterile hospital - has meant a > growth in the fear of death, by making it unfamiliar, unknown and > mysterious. > I grew up going to a Christian Church which was surrounded by its own > graveyard and headstones. To get to the Church door, one had to pass > through a grassy lane between graves. Families in the district > had 'family plots', the newly deceased were interred with the remains > of already dead loved ones. Kids played around and between the > graves. It was never scary, it was seen as a natural end to life. > People would put fresh flowers on the graves after Church and some > would have a talk and tell the dead relatives the latest happenings - > I'm not sure if they really believed they were hovering around - but > people add their own hopes to the basic teachings of any religion. > And the Christian Religion does not teach anatta. > It is kamma and its unpredictability that is a little unnerving for > me - especially the type of kamma that may have been committed aeons > ago and only finds its chance to have influence at the rebirth > moment. Still - no control, so useless to worry I suppose. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" 27279 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:27am Subject: Re: Nibbana - transcendental or not? Dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, < snip > I have an initial question about nibbana. I take the meaning of transcendant to mean 'going beyond the limits of ordinary experience', 'not based on experience, intuitive, innate in the mind'. < snip > Is Nibbana transcendental or not? KKT: In Udana 8, we read a definition of Nibbana: There is an unborn, unmade, unbecoming, unconditioned, ... Within the scope of human experiences (ie. 5 khandhas) we can only experience what is born, made, becoming, conditioned. Thus Nibbana should be transcendental if we accept your definition of << transcendant to mean 'going beyond the limits of ordinary experience' >> Metta, KKT 27280 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Herman It's been a while. Welcome back. I'm doing fine, thanks. Are you suggesting I should talk more about my personal experience and less about what is in the suttas (yes, I do know the difference ;-))? I can assure you that would be a retrograde step, not to mention deadly boring for everyone else. The suttas contain the teachings of the Buddha (that was true at the time he lived, and it's true now). Some of us think that he knew a thing or two worth learning, but that this can only be done by repeated study of the texts *as well as* the application of what has been learnt from that study so far. He who thinks awareness can be developed without reference to the texts has only his own ignorance and wrong view for a guide. Well, you asked me, and that's what I think ;-)) Good talking to you. Jon wrote: > Hi, Jon and everyone, > > How are you? ... > Have you ever experienced anything that is in the suttas? > Have you ever experienced anything that is not in the suttas? > Have you ever experienced a sutta? > > Which comparisons are without conceit? > > What is happening right now? (Hint: It is not in a book.) A foetus > in the process of being aborted is more aware of what is happening > at the present moment than a person attempting to link an > experience > to something they have read. Awareness has no prerequisites. > Awareness does not need to be identified and / or categorised in > order for it to be awareness. The identification and categorisation > of awareness is the basis for proliferation of unawareness. > > The suttas are not more to the point. The suttas require a whole > lot > of existing and pre - existing culture (yes, yoghurt) to make any > sense at all. The suttas are less to the point. Awareness ceases > the moment thinking cuts in. > > What do you think? 27281 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Christine, Christine wrote: It is kamma and its unpredictability that is a little unnerving for me - especially the type of kamma that may have been committed aeons ago and only finds its chance to have influence at the rebirth moment. Still - no control, so useless to worry I suppose. Michael: I prefer not to think that way Christine, and that way of thinking has the risk of leading to inertia. There is a simile in relation to rebirth consciousness which I don’t recall where it comes from, but which has a lot of relevance to me, and that I always try to keep remembering. The simile is in relation to cattle held in a pen. When the gate is opened, which is the first one to come out? There are a number of options: the strongest, the one that usually gets out first, or the one which is closest to the gate. In terms of rebirth consciousness, the state of mind which will prevail could be the strongest, the one that usually surfaces, or the one that is closest at that moment. All this leads to the point that if you constantly cultivate the same/similar state of mind this will become strongest, will become the likelier to surface first, and the closest. Which points towards practicing the dhamma in every single moment. And in that case it really doesn’t matter the kamma committed aeons ago – in fact you are (indeed) in control. Metta Michael 27282 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: object of awareness, 1. Hi Howard, This issue you bring up is important. op 21-11-2003 22:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It seems to me that the > gist of what you are saying with regard to the main matter being discussed is > that cetasikas are discerned not when they occur, simultaneous with the > discernment of some object, but afterwards as the object of subsequent cittas. N: When I speak about citta, the accompanying cetasikas are always included. They arise at the same physical base as the citta, experience the same object through the same doorway and fall away together with the citta. Thus, citta with the cetasikas experience an object, for example, colour. They can only experience that one object, they cannot experience themselves. Seeing does not know, "I am seeing". Citta and the concomittant cetasikas fall away. After that another citta (and cetasikas) may arise which are directly away of : visible object, or seeing, or feeling which is indifferent feeling in this case. Citta rooted in aversion arises that dislikes visible object that was experienced by seeing. Citta with aversion and unpleasant feeling falls away. After that kusala citta with wisdom may arise and directly experience: the citta rooted in aversion, or the unpleasant feeling that was its concomittant, or any other nama or rupa. H: This > strikes me as odd. I'm not saying it's not so - I have no way of knowing at > my stage of development - but just that this is odd. N: If this were not possible, one could not be aware of akusala. Awareness arises with kusala citta, and it cannot arises at the same time as akusala citta, but it can be directly aware of the characteristic of akusala dhamma which has just fallen away and is still *the present moment*. We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(IV, XXXV,§70) Upavana that the Buddha said to Upavana: . Could just inferential thinking be of such result and be onward-leading? Evverybody can just think: I have desire, we do not need the dhamma for that. If there is no direct awareness and understanding of akusala, its true nature cannot be realized. It cannot be known that it is only a type of nama that is conditioned, not self. Its arising and falling cannot be realized. (to be continued) Nina. 27283 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Dear Sukin, You explained the essence (again essence!) of the Dhamma very well. I like this one: < K. Sujin always has to remind the questioner that `something appears and is being experienced isn't it?'> Yes, practical application, not just thinking about. Appreciating, Nina. op 22-11-2003 03:12 schreef Sukinderpal Singh Narula op sukinder@k...: > Even within the Theravada Abhidhamma tradition there is an argument > arising from doubt, that *in fact* we cannot experience realities > ever. This is based on the argument that realities rise and fall so > fast that they have already fallen away by the time there is any > awareness of it, so in fact we are only experiencing `illusions' so > to speak. To this, K. Sujin always has to remind the questioner > that `something appears and is being experienced isn't it?' > I think we can forever be drawn in by philosophical arguments and > keep on denying what is really going on. This is why I suggested > earlier that Buddha's teachings are for practical application, not > just `thinking about'. To know this requires panna that sees the > importance of satipatthana and the accumulation of the paramis, > particularly in relation to the development of panna. And in this > connection, I see the study of nama/rupa, conditionality, and the > increasing familiarity with the characteristic of all realities as > being complementary to this practice. And for this, knowing about > sabhava dhammas is quite essential. 27284 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Marana, Death Clock, Dear Christine and Htoo, Thank you for your helpful words, good to remember. Nina. op 22-11-2003 14:50 schreef htootintnaing op htootintnaing@y...: > Thanks Christine for your kind references and Suttas. I included most > of your words below in my inline text reply. I do hope these > discussion will be helpful for all members 27285 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 7:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hello Jon, Howard, I will jump into your conversation… Jon: As I understand it, past kamma conditions whether a pleasant or unpleasant rupa *is experienced* (not, 'arises'). The arising of rupas is conditioned by an altogether different set of conditions, and, except in the case of certain rupas of the body, has nothing to do with an individual's past kamma. I think we have to distinguish between 2 different sets of factors: (a) the factors governing the *arising* of rupas and, (b) the factors governing the experiencing of rupas by sense-door consciousness. Michael: I think I understand it the same way you do but never find any confirmation of this in any scripture. Have you? I don't know if you are familiar with Geshe Michael Roach? Out of curiosity, in order to gain a better grasp of the Mahayana thinking, I was listening to his teachings some time ago, and he expressed a quite different view which apparently is the prevalent view in his tradition (Gelug-pa). What he said is that no matter what, past kamma conditions the arising of rupas. Jon: I'm not sure that that is so (but in any event is quite different to saying that the rupa carries its own vedanic flavour!). However, the extent to which a rupa as object could be a condition for the feeling that accompanies the subsequent consciousness must be limited. For example, if the consciousness that follows the moment of experiencing the rupa is kusala consciousness, then the feeling could not be unpleasant feeling, no mater how 'unpleasant' the rupa. Michael: I have two comments on this. First I recall reading in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (please don’t ask me to quote precise details), that the vedana flavor of a certain rupa is influenced by convention. So, although there is no intrinsic flavor to a certain rupa, the majority of the people will react the same way to that experience. And this will mislead them into thinking that the vedana is intrinsic to the rupa (real nature vs conventional nature again). Second, in relation to kusala/akusala and pleasant/unpleasant, the Abhidhammattha also mentions that the combinations are not always straight forward. Take for example the situation of a masochist which will experience pleasure through an akusala rupa/action. Metta Michael 27286 From: Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 3:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Jon - I'm not understanding you in parts of the following. In a message dated 11/23/03 5:57:57 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > What in the world could one be aware of when one is aware of > >a consciousness but not of the object of that consciousness? If > >that occurred, then > >being aware of one consciousness would be no different from being > >aware of another. > > I don't see it that way at all :-)). > > When there are moments of consciousness accompanied by awareness, > whether awareness of consciousness or of one of the sense-door > objects, it's not as though the 'normal' experiencing occurring at > that time (e.g., reading a book, walking to work, eating lunch) is > suspended or impaired and there is *only* awareness and/or its > object. > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: There's always awareness only of its object. By "awareness" here, do you just mean vi~n~nana, or are you talking about sati or pa~n~na? I assume you mean vi~n~nana. ---------------------------------------------------- The consciousness with awareness arises together with (or in> > addition to) the 'normal' experiencing, but because there is > awareness then whatever is the object of the awareness is experienced > more clearly for what it truly is. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sorry, Jon, I just can't make head or tail of this sentence. (I'm not saying that's your fault, but, in any case, I just can't get what you are saying.) ---------------------------------------------------- > > Thus if there was awareness of, for example, seeing consciousness at > a time when both seeing and hearing are occurring (as appears to us > to be the case), the seeing consciousness would be experienced more > clearly as it is truly is; there would be no doubt that the > consciousness in question was seeing consciousness and not hearing > consciousness. -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I still am not quite getting you. When we are aware of a moment of consciousness as an object, it must be as a memory, and that typically is a memory of the cognitive event which involved both the knowing and the known, and that recalls it more or less faithfully. My point was the following: The only means of distinguishing one act of consciousness from another is by means of the object and the concomitant features and functions - the consciousness per se is merely the knowing aspect of the event. When we are aware of seeing something - rather, of just *having* seen something, the awareness is actually (of) a partial memory that includes at least the visual nature of the event in addition to the knowing aspect. If there is awareness *only* of vi~n~nana per se, culled out by the mind from the full event, then the awareness is the knowing only that there just was knowing (of something). ---------------------------------------------------- > > To me, the idea of awareness experiencing both seeing consciousness > and its object at one and the same moment implies a unity of > consciousness-and-object which the teachings are at pains to refute. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: The consciousness and its object (and the sense door activation) *do* constitute a single event called *contact or impression or phassa or "act of consciousness" (by me). When we are aware of consciousness as an object, we are actually aware of a mind-constructed memory consisting of a replication of all or part of a past act of consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------- > May I ask whether this is a 'model' that you find mentioned in the > suttas? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: This "model" is based on three things: 1) The suttic definition of contact, 2) the portion of paticcasamupada relating vi~n~nana, namarupa, and salayatana, 3) the definition of vi~n~nana, 4) personal introspection, and 5) the fact that one cannot experience what no longer exists. ------------------------------------------------ > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard * With regard to contact, there is a point of information I've been meaning to ask about, and this seems like a good time. I recently found in Kalupahana's book The Principles of Buddhist Philosophy, some of which I like a lot, and some of which I disagree with, a reference to a sutta of the Digha Nikaya, D 2.62. I have the Walshe version of the DN, and I cannot figure out which sutta this is. The reason for my interest is that what Kalupahana writes suggests some support for my view of the primacy of contact. Kalupahana, in explicating the Buddha's teaching phenomenologically, writes the following: "... when the question regarding the nature of mind (nama) and matter (rupa) was raised, he responded by saying that the so-called matter is 'contact with resistence' (patigha-samphassa) and what is called mind is 'contact with concepts' (adhivacana-samphassa). In doing so, he was reducing both mind and matter to contact (samphassa) and, therefore, processes of experience rather than any kind of material-stuff or mind-stuff." What I would like to know is three things: 1) which sutta this is in the Walshe book, 2) whether the Pali is correct, and 3) whether the English translation of the Pali is acceptable. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27287 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 8:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Michael, Christine and all, Near dying, there come thoughts racing. These thoughts may be related to the very present or the past. He ( I will use he for any sex here ) may see the present visual object or one of other four sense objects at the present. One of these five sense objects come repeatedly near death. Finally just before the last consciousness ( Cuticitta ) there runs a series of Javanacittas which take the object at one of five senses at the present. The object may be robes, monastry, food for offering, medicine for offering or the object may be the receiver of donation like monks. These objects arise if he is going to good realm. Or the object may be knives, axes, guns, bow and arrows or the object may be killed animals or killed men and so on if he is going to bad realm. Or the thoughts that are racing at near death may reveal hin as if he is doing good deed at the present or as if he is doing bad things at the present. Or he may take the present objects like beautiful lakes, sweet songs and music etc if he is going to a good realm or he may take the object like great fire, hugh dogs, ugly noice shouting in fear or he may take the object of womb wall etc. These thoughts are racing at near death. But there are different Kamma. Regarding rebirth there are 4 different Kamma in terms of seniority. If the most senior Kamma called Garuka Kamma is present no other Kamma can give rise to Patisandhi Citta or linking consciousness. Garuka Kamma are like Rupa Jhana, Arupa Jhana, Anantariya Kamma. In its absence, the second most senior is Asanna Kamma. This Kamma is the Kamma that have done near dying. Asanna means repeatedly arising. In the absence of Garuka Kamma and Asanna Kamma, Acinna Kamma will give rise to rebirth. Acinna means long practising. If there is no special Kamma like Garuka and Asanna Kamma, then the Kamma which he had been practising in his life will give rise to rebirth. In the presence of all these three Kamma, the fourth Kamma called Katatta Kamma will give rise to rebirth. This is something like Christine said. It may be Kamma done since aeon. At dying state, the Satta is so weak and sometime cannot think clearly. So he has to accept whatever Citta arise. If a good practice have been done in this life it may come as Acinna Kamma. Asanna Kamma is much more powerful. So most Myanmar do good deed for patients when there is possibility of death so as to arise Asanna Kamma in good nature. Garuka Kamma overwhelms other Kamma. If Anantariya Kamma exists any other Kamma will be useless in terms of rebirth at that particular moment. Patricide, matricide, killing of Arahats, raping of femal Arahats, causing bruise to The Live Buddha, separation of The Sangha are Anantariya Kamma. In the absence of this very bad Kamma, if Jhana cannot be obtained, Asanna Kamma will help a lot. May all beings be free from misfortune With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Christine, > > Christine wrote: > It is kamma and its unpredictability that is a little unnerving for > me - especially the type of kamma that may have been committed aeons > ago and only finds its chance to have influence at the rebirth > moment. Still - no control, so useless to worry I suppose. > > Michael: > I prefer not to think that way Christine, and that way of thinking has the > risk of leading to inertia. There is a simile in relation to rebirth > consciousness which I don't recall where it comes from, but which has a lot > of relevance to me, and that I always try to keep remembering. The simile is > in relation to cattle held in a pen. When the gate is opened, which is the > first one to come out? There are a number of options: the strongest, the one > that usually gets out first, or the one which is closest to the gate. In > terms of rebirth consciousness, the state of mind which will prevail could > be the strongest, the one that usually surfaces, or the one that is closest > at that moment. All this leads to the point that if you constantly cultivate > the same/similar state of mind this will become strongest, will become the > likelier to surface first, and the closest. Which points towards practicing > the dhamma in every single moment. And in that case it really doesn't matter > the kamma committed aeons ago – in fact you are (indeed) in control. > > Metta > Michael 27288 From: shakti Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:58am Subject: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Htoo Naing, Christine, Azita, Howard and other friends, Thank you for your postings on death and dying. They have been helpful reminders and more food for thought. Christine, I haven't had a chance to read all the sites you posted but will try to do that this weekend. Since the death of my aunt and neighbors last week, I have been surprised at how much my mind is thinking about death. There seem to be a lot of feelings of emptiness arising, moments of sadness and attachment. I thought someone a few weeks ago asked, what is the purpose of life? I have been wondering about that too. This is a question as old as mankind. When I contemplate death, life seems so meaningless so empty. Is the purpose of life, if there is one, to experience just the eternal now? Sometimes it feels like a puzzle to be solved. Is it to understand the nature of reality, dukkha, anatta, anicca? Why? Metta, Shakti gazita2002 wrote: Dear Htoo Naing, Christine, Shakti and others, Do you think that we have difficulties with death bc in one sense, we haven't experienced it yet in this life. I know this statement will draw comments about death of every moment, but what I mean is that we have an idea of lobha, dosa, good feeling, bad feeling bc we experience this every day, but we don't experience our own 'conventional' death every day. ----snip --- Azita 27289 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Htoo, Htoo: In the absence of this very bad Kamma, if Jhana cannot be obtained, Asanna Kamma will help a lot. Michael: Thank you for the very technical explanation. Also one should keep in mind that at the moment of rebirth consciousness which is very near death, the consciousness is vey weak, only 4 or 5 javanas ( I am not sure) instead of the 7 in a normal process. Metta Michael 27290 From: shakti Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 10:23am Subject: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana gazita2002 wrote: Dear Htoo Naing, Christine, Shakti and others, Do you think that we have difficulties with death bc in one sense, we haven't experienced it yet in this life. I know this statement will draw comments about death of every moment, but what I mean is that we have an idea of lobha, dosa, good feeling, bad feeling bc we experience this every day, but we don't experience our own 'conventional' death every day. -----snip -----Azita Shakti: Dear Azita, I think that I have trouble with death because, of my attachments to things, 'self' and to others. The thought of leaving my children behind and what will happen to them, brings up a lot of fear for me. I feel attachment to the earth and the beautiful sights and sounds of it. I wonder about my own final moments and hope that I will not be full of fear but, rather that wisdom will arise. I hope that I can die as I have lived with the understanding of dhamma growing. With metta, Shakti 27291 From: Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hi, Shakti - In a message dated 11/23/03 1:00:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, deannajohnsonusa@y... writes: > I thought someone a few weeks ago asked, what is the purpose of life? I > have been wondering about that too. This is a question as old as mankind. > When I contemplate death, life seems so meaningless so empty. Is the purpose of > life, if there is one, to experience just the eternal now? Sometimes it > feels like a puzzle to be solved. Is it to understand the nature of reality, > dukkha, anatta, anicca? Why? > ========================= It seems to me that the notion of 'purpose of life' presupposes a design. I believe that the world, including all realms of existence and experience, is a vast mosaic of designs, with the kamma of multitudes of interacting mindstreams constituting the "designer". This is how I see the matter. But one then could ask why are things as they are. It seems to me that an appropriate answer might be "How could things be other than as they are?". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27292 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg]awareness and thinking Dear Herman, Welcome back. I was on the point to write to you but I did not want to intrude, so I did not write. I talked to Lodewijk about you yesterday! And now you are right here! How is your family and the music? We still have to play twice a week for my father and rehearse for this. We give a house concert end Dec when he becomes hundredthree. The last sentence is a point which I shall react to. Awareness is not thinking. When there is thinking about seeing, the characteristic of seeing does not appear. But thinking should not worry us, it is conditioned, it is real and can be object of awareness. Gradually we can learn the difference between awareness and thinking and thus, when we know the characteristic of awareness it can be developed. When we are thinking about realities we can be reminded that this is not awareness. Nina. op 23-11-2003 14:40 schreef Egberdina op hhofman@t...: > Awareness ceases the > moment thinking cuts in. 27293 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Jon: "Are you saying that if consciousness alone can be the object of awareness, this would mean or imply that consciousness arises or can arise without cetasikas? I'm not with you on this. Perhaps you could elaborate." Hi Jon, Yes. This stems from a conversation I had with Rob and, I think, Nina, concerning the purity of consciousness. My resultant understanding is that consciousness simply cognizes and the 121 consciousnesses are the same consciousness with 121 combinations of the 52 cetasikas and the rupas. Consciousness of consciousness _itself_ would be consciousness of mere cognizance without the quality of a cetasika or rupa. I don't see that being explored in Theravada. So I would conclude that, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, consciousness of consciousness is actually consciousness of a mind state composed of cetasikas. I had thought, like you I think, that the 121 consciousnesses were actually 121 different consciousnesses, but apparently this is not the case. Is this right??? Larry 27294 From: Larry Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 1:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Herman: "Awareness ceases the moment thinking cuts in. What do you think?" Larry: Good. The more cessation the better. 27295 From: Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Nibbana - transcendental or not? Hi Christine Based on the way the Suttas present Nibbana, I cannot conclude that they are indicating some other state transcendental or otherwise. The major thrust seems to be "the end of this state." -- Like a fire that has gone out; it does not "go somewhere else." TG In a message dated 11/23/2003 2:30:06 AM Pacific Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > I am reading around the subject of nibanna. > > In the Ariyapariyesana Sutta MN 26.18 the section on Enlightenment > "Then, bhikkhus, being myself subject to birth, having understood the > danger in what is subject to birth, seeking the unborn supreme > security from bondage, Nibbana, I attained the unborn supreme > security from bondage, Nibbana; being myself subject to ageing, > having understood the danger in what is subject to ageing, seeking > the unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana, I attained the > unageing supreme security from bondage, Nibbana; {repeats the same > for sickness, death, sorrow, defilement} > The knowledge and vision arose in me: "My deliverance is unshakeable; > this is my last birth; now, there is no renewal of being'. > > I have an initial question about nibbana. I take the meaning of > transcendant to mean 'going beyond the limits of ordinary > experience', 'not based on experience, intuitive, innate in the mind'. > > In the Pali-English dictionary, it says: "Import and Range of the > Term. A. Nibbana is purely and solely an ethical state, to be reached > in this birth by ethical practices, contemplation and insight. It is > therefore NOT TRANSCENDENTAL. The first and most important way to > reach N. is by means of the eightfold Path, and all expressions which > deal with the realisation of emancipation from lust, hatred and > illusion apply to practical habits and not to speculative thought. N. > is realised in one's heart; to measure it with a speculative measure > is to apply a wrong standard." > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > > In the introduction to the Majjhima Nikaya, Bhikkhu Bodhi says: "The > Buddha does not devote many words to a philosophical definition of > Nibbaana. One reason is that Nibbaana, being unconditioned, > TRANSCENDANT, and supramundane, does not easily lend itself to > definition in terms of concepts that are inescapably tied to the > conditioned, manifest, and mundane." > > Is Nibbana transcendental or not? > > metta and peace, > Christine > 27296 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 6:12pm Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Hello Shakti, Htoo Naing, Michael,(Azita, Howard, RobM)and All, Htoo Naing: Thanks for your explanation of the types of kamma that can influence rebirth. I am slowly learning a lot from you on a number of Lists. I like your numbered series elsewhere - easy to find in the archives when needed. Michael: I'm not so sure that there is any control at all. Maybe the 'illusion' of choices. How much control do we have of our actions really, and how much is just the result of conditions where we think we have chosen? I can't choose not to hear or see or smell something by an act of will. I can't make myself not have a particular thought. I can't make myself feel heat, cold, or hardness unless they arise, and if they arise, I can't make myself not feel them. I can see that habitual behaviour may have a strong effect, but if a fleeting remembrance can also pop up and influence rebirth - I can just see myself repeating "Only think of good deeds, only think loving thoughts ... Only think of good deeds, only think loving thoughts... don't think of that time when you backed into someone's car and didn't leave your name and address ... ooops!" Shakti, you ask: "Is the purpose of life, if there is one, to experience just the eternal now? Sometimes it feels like a puzzle to be solved. Is it to understand the nature of reality, dukkha, anatta, anicca? Why?" These are good questions, on whether there is any purpose to life ... This is the launching pad for most searching, and why many of us, who thought we had been deeply committed to a spiritual journey for most of our lives, really only get a move along each time suffering or death smacks us in the face. Then we get caught in the story as a 'whole' and see it as *my * pain and grief, instead of namas and rupas that rise and fall away so quickly. If I understood much in this area, I could give you any suttas where the Buddha might touch on this. But as I don't understand it myself, I would just be a Dhamma Parrot mimicing others. It is not something I feel settled about myself. One can feel that the world and life has, or ought to have, a purpose - because purpose gives a point and a meaning to life. Often, even when bad or evil things happen, we cope by trying to find that good eventually comes from bad - as if there was a hidden agenda. A purpose also implies a 'designer'. Nice to have 'someOne' who allegedly knows what they're doing - that this whole mess has a structure and an intelligent goal. I used to think there was a Great Designer, except the Great Designer behaved in ways that I wouldn't have. e.g. seemed to allow hopeless suffering and judged whether a person deserved eternal heaven or hell depending on behaviour in a single unequally resourced and unfair life-time. Eventually I came to realise that there was no-One at the wheel. Just many causes and effects. Alternatively, one can feel that the world and life has no purpose whatsoever, and then everything can seem meaningless, no good, no evil, no aims or objectives - everything without value. Personally, I think Samsara, the wandering on, Just Is - the purpose is to get out, to have the interminable, repetitive dukkha stop, to cease coming back and having to ignorantly live the soapie stories again, and again, and again. Hence my continuing interest in trying to understand anatta and nibbana - *what* gets out, and *to where* does it get? I found this site interesting, once given to me by RobM, thanks Rob:). Dying2Live "The Role of Kamma in Dying and Rebirth" - Aggacitta Bhikkhu http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/dying2live.htm Noticeably written for a different culture, but solid dhamma. I found the flavour of the dying individual's mind moments and the attempts to alter them for the benefit of the dying person, particularly fascinating, I'm not sure what to think about it. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, shakti 27297 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Howard, op 21-11-2003 22:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: odd. One wonders (at least > *this* one does! ;-) why cetasikas are called concomitants, since they are > supposedly never observed at the same time, and also how it is that it can be > known > that a cetasika, currently experienced, actually *previously* occurred! N: It is not odd. If we find this odd we may believe that it is impossible to know all realities, akusala included, as they are. We read in the "Satipatthanasutta" under: mindfulness of citta: that consciousness with lust is an object of mindfulness. The subco states: Under mindfulness of dhammas (mental objects) : the five hindrances are objects of mindfulness. The subco states about right reflection: This kind of reflection is not just inferential thinking, we all can think of impermanence, but this does not change our life. We read in the "Kindred Sayings"(IV, 138, transl of Wheel 251-253): <"Is there a way, o monks, by which a monk without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to traditions, to specious reasoning, or preference for his preconceived views, may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood), thus: 'Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing remains after this'?"... 'There is such as way, o Monks. And what is it? Herein, monks, a monk has seen a form with the eyes, and if greed, hatred and delusion are in him, he knows 'There is in me greed, hatred and delusion'; and if greed, hatred and delusion are absent in him, he knows 'There is no greed, hatred and delusion in me'. (the same is said with regard to the other doorways.)... This monks, is a way by which a monk without recourse to faith, to cherished opinions, to traditions, .... may declare the Final Knowledge (of Sainthood), thus: 'Rebirth has ceased, the Holy Life has been lived, completed is the task, and nothing remains after this".> When he only reasons and thinks, 'There is in me greed, hatred and delusion' he could surely not become an arahat. "The all" has to be thoroughly known and realized. We read in the Suttas about the development of jhana and insight. The person who develops jhana must know the jhanafactors, cetasikas, by direct experience. Otherwise he would not know how to abandon the more coarse factors so that he can attain higher stages of jhana. He then develops insight and has to be aware of the jhanacitta so that he can realize the three characteristics of it. Jhanacitta has as object only the meditation subject of jhana. When it has just fallen away the jhanacitta or one of the accompanying cetasikas can be object of mindfulness and direct understanding. We may wonder how it is possible to be directly aware of what has just fallen away. Understanding can, but not without cultivating the right conditions. The groundwork: right understanding of what can be the object of mindfulness: any dhamma, citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself one at a time. Not rejecting akusala dhammas as object of awareness. Questioning and discussing knotty points, reflection, the development of all perfections, none excluded. Nina. 27298 From: Sarah Date: Sun Nov 23, 2003 11:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Howard (& Jon), --- upasaka@a... wrote: H: >I recently found in Kalupahana's book, The Principles of Buddhist Philosophy, some of which I like a lot, and some of which I disagree with, a reference to a sutta of the Digha > Nikaya, D 2.62. I have the Walshe version of the DN, and I cannot figure out which sutta this is. ..... This time, no problem locating the reference (which is to the Pali text): Walshe transl: p.225, Mahaanidaana sutta, starting at 19. (if you look at the top left corner of the page, you'll see ii,62) For those who have BB's excel.transl with commentaries, p.50, starting at 19. Lots of detail here;-) Where Walshe gives the footnote 337 to 'body-factor' (ruupa-kaaya), PTS transl gives a footnote to ruupakaaye adhivacanasamphasso. BB transl of comy (small taste;-)): "..... Designation-contact (adhivacanasamphassa) is synonymous with mind-contact (manosamphassa), which arises in the mind-door taking as its basis the four mental aggregates [S: i.e feeling, perception, consciousness, volition-sankhara as support condition]. Would that be discerned in the material body? Would it arise taking as its basis one or another of the five kinds of sensitive matter? “The Venerable Ananda replies: 'Certainly not, Venerable sir,' rejecting the arising of (mind-contact) from the material body (alone), just as one would the arising of a mango fruit from a rose-apple tree when mango trees are absent." The second kind of contact referred to in the following lines is patighasamphasso. According to BB, sappatigha refers to the five kinds of sensitive matter. BB: "Thus impingement-contact is contact occurring through the five physical sense-faculties, eye-contact, ear-contact, etc." This is exactly as I read it in the Abhidhamma texts too. In other words, two kinds of contact are distinguished as I read it: adhivacanasamphassa arising in the mind-door processes and patighasamphassa arising in the sense-door processes. Ananda again rejects "the arising of (impingement-contact) from the mental body (alone), just as one would the arising of a rose-apple fruit from a mango tree when rose-apple trees are absent.” Eventually, we read (Walshe transl): "Then, Ananda, just this, namely mind-and-body [i.e nama-rupa], is the root, the cause, the origin, the condition for all contact." Comy (BB transl): "The meaning is: 'The mentality-materiality occurring in the six doors, this is the cause, this is the condition, [for the two kinds of contact}.' for in the eye-door, the eye and visible form objects are materiality and the aggregates associated [with contact] are mentality; the same holds, with appropriate changes, in regard to the other physical sense doors. Thus this fivefold contact [by way of eye-contact, etc] is still 'contact with mentality-materiality as condition.' In the mind-door, too, the heart-basis and any material object are materiality, the phenomena asociated [with contact] and any immaterial object are mentality. Thus mind-contact, too, is 'contact with mentality-materiality as condition'. Mentality-materiality is a condition for this [contact] in many ways. The sub-commentary (Tiika) continues to give the breakdown of exactly what these many conditions are. For example, the resultant mentality (i.e vipaka citta such as seeing consciousness) is a condition for the numerous kinds of resultant mind-contact (i.e phassa accompanying it) in seven ways - as conascence, mutuality, support, kamma-result, association, presence and non-disappearance conditions. We also read about the ways in which the rupas (materiality)such as the eye-base sensitive matter and visible object condition the phassa (contact). Hence we begin to see how namas and rupas condition phassa in many ways. Lots more detail if anyone would like it. Let me look at your comments now briefly: ***** Howard: >Kalupahana, in explicating the Buddha's teaching phenomenologically, writes the following: "... when the question regarding the nature of mind (nama) and matter (rupa) was raised, he responded by saying that the so-called matter is 'contact with resistence' (patigha-samphassa) ..... patigha-samphassa is not matter but a kind of phassa (contact), a cetasika (mental factor) which arises with cittas experiencing objects through the sense doors. sappatigha-samphassa -lit. impact-impression. Contact on account of sense impressions on sensitive matter of the eye etc. Sammohavinodani: "...And 'mind-impression born' is figuratively a name for this too. For eye-consciousness is called mind (mano). the impression conascent with that is called mind-impression." .... H:>and what is called mind is 'contact with concepts' (adhivacana-samphassa). .... Phassa (contact) is one of 52 cetasikas included in nama along with cittas (and nibbana). Adhivacana-samphassa refers to phassa accompanying cittas in the mind door process. .... H:>In doing so, he was reducing both mind and matter to contact(samphassa) and, therefore, processes of experience rather than any kind of material-stuff or mind-stuff." .... This is clearly incorrect. Phassa is included in sankhara khandha. .... H:> What I would like to know is three things: 1) which sutta this is in the Walshe book, 2) whether the Pali is correct, and 3) whether the English translation of the Pali is acceptable. ..... Hope I’ve helped. I intended to just quickly give you the reference, but as you’ll have seen, I got interested;-). This closely relates to recent Visuddhimagga extracts too. I’ll be glad to hear comments or corrections or to clarify anything further. Metta, Sarah p.s Howard, appreciating other posts of yours on Death to Shakti and on sabhava to Michael. ====== 27299 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 0:39am Subject: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, Sorry for the delay. I appreciated your comments. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Could you provide some references regarding clinging to wholesome > states? Did the Buddha ever address the problem of clinging to > wholesome states, if there is such problem at all? ..... Isn’t there clinging to wholesome states, to having more of them all the time? What about wishing for wisdom just before death or at this moment, for example? When we read about the upadanakkhandha (5 aggregates of clinging), do you read these as excluding wholesome states? Usually only nibbana and the lokuttara cittas are considered to be always be anasava and anupadaniya (untainted and not subject to clinging. Being supramundance, they ‘transcend’ mundane consciousness and cannot be the object of clinging. Aggregates Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html "And what are the five clinging-aggregates? "Whatever form -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called form as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever feeling -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever perception -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever (mental) fabrications -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- are clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate. "Whatever consciousness -- past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate. "These are called the five clinging-aggregates." ***** Wholesome states are included in sankhara khandha translated here as mental fabrications. ‘Upaadaaniya’ refers to that can be clung to - that which becomes a condition for clinging by being the object. B.Bodhi writes in his introduction to the Khandhavagga: “Examination of the five aggregates plays a critical role in the Buddha’s teaching for at least four reasons. First, because the five aggregates are the ultimate referent of the first noble truth, the noble truth of suffering, and since all four truths revolve around suffering, understanding the aggregates is essential for understanding the Four Noble Truths as a whole. Second,because the five aggregates are the objective domain of clinging and as such contribute to the causal origination of future suffering. Third, because the removal of clinging is necessary for the attainment of release, and clinging must be removed from the objects around which its tentacles are wrapped, namely, the five aggregates. And fourth, because the removal of clinging is achieved by wisdom, and the kind of wisdom needed is precisely clear insight into the real nature of the aggregates.” Later he also writes: “Whatever in the world one might cling to, it is only form, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness that one clings to. For this reason the aggregates that make up our mundane experience are commonl called the five aggregates subject to clinging (pa~ncupaadaanakkhandha).” ..... V: > As I understand it, the Buddha explained clinging/sustenance as the > following: > > > "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: > sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and > doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. > .... I notice that you didn’t give any references for your quotes this time, Victor. In D22 (Mahasatipatthana Sutta) we read about the origin of suffering (Walshe transl, p.346): “It is that craving which gives rise to rebirth, bound up with pleasure and lust, finding fresh delight now here, now there: that is to say sensual craving, craving for existence, and craving for non-existence. ‘And where does this craving arise and establish itself? Wherever in the world there is anything agreeable and pleasurable, there this craving arises and establishes itself. ‘And what is there in the world that is agreeable and pleasurable? The eye....the ear......the mind.....agreeable and pleasurable, and there is this craving arises and establishes itself. Sights, sounds.......mind-objects.......craving arises and establishes itself. ‘ Eye-consciousness...............mind-consciousness.... ‘ Eye-contact...... ‘Feeling....... ‘Perception of sights........ ‘Volition in regard to sights..... ‘Thinking (vitakka) of sights..........mind-objects ‘ Pondering (vicara)..........etc’ .... No exceptions are given for wholesome states. We have to know and become detached from all kinds of craving as all kinds lead to the ‘piling-up’ of samsara and continuation of the cycle (see Gotami sutta, AN, Bk of 8s, iii,53. Mahapajati, the Gotamid is said to have become an arahant on hearing this). Piling-up (aacayaaya) - any kind of craving or attachment accumulates. I found B.Bodhi’s words a helpful reminder as I wrote. We think the attachment and grief is to the other person, such as the one who has just passed away, or that there’s no either no clinging to wholesome states or that it isn’t a problem, but really whenever there is clinging, it is to the aggregates - to having pleasant feelings, particular sense objects, to wholesome mental states and so on. In other words, it all concerns the clinging to oneself, however gross or subtle. With metta, Sarah ====== 27300 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati, II a, training. Dear Nina & All, I was thinking of the references and comments relating to jhana states and particularly the clinging to these as I wrote to Victor. He only likes sutta quotes, so I'll write to you instead;-) More and more I appreciate that the listeners at the time of the Buddha were being encouraged to understand whatever realities (paramattha dhammas) were arising in their lives at any given time and to develop detachment from even the highest jhana states which would impede progress. As you wrote in the Visuddhimagga- Buddhaghosa thread: .... N: >Vipassana. In order to realize nibbana insight has to be developed, no matter someone develops jhana or not. As I see it, all these passages are referring to vipassana, satipatthana, the eightfold Path. At the end of the Ch on virtue, as I wrote before, all degrees of virtue are included: jhanacittas, and all stages of insight and of enlightenment. There is a verse at the end: At the end it is said: N: The teaching of insight , satipatthana, the eightfold Path, leading to the eradication of the wrong view of self is exclusively the teaching of Buddhas. Thus, whenever we read about virtue or jhana in the Suttas we have to remember this. Then understanding of the suttas will become deeper. The threepartite division we find in the Visuddhimagga and also in the suttanta is not a matter of: develop first virtue and concentration and then insight. It is a matter of arranging the material to be taught under these three headings.< ..... S: One Eightfold Path, one Way whichever texts we are reading. .... In the anapanasati thread, we learn about those bhikkhus for whom breath was the object of higher and higher jhanas. Yet, even for these bhikkhus with highly developed samatha, the goal remains that of understanding realities for what they are with detachment from any idea of self. The practice is still that of satipatthana, the four foundations of mindfulness. Sati and panna still have to know the characteristics of namas and rupas for what they are, just as Rahula was reminded with regard to the elements which make up the body and breath. Without the development of satipatthana, there will always be the idea of ‘man’, ‘woman’ or ‘whole body’. .... N: >Another long footnote to Vis. VIII, 168. Thus, development: making much of, increase. Not only concentration, but realizing the three charactristics is the goal. Mindfulness of the realities appearing while breathing in order to know their true characteristics.... N:> So many aspects I have not considered myself enough. This subject is very useful. ..... I agree. Very complicated too. Thank you for re-posting these. I’m also looking forward to Ken H’s feedback after the weekend. (KenH, if they get through anapanasati or the Satipatthana sutta too quickly or they get bored, you could always throw in a little sabhava or luminous Pure Mind and that should spice it up;-)) Metta, Sarah ======= 27301 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, I’ve been enjoying your posts to everyone. I’m glad to see you’re happy to join in the controversial topics;-) --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > Agree with you up to ‘same medicine’. That is not what you read in the > suttas. There were countless situations with varying medicines. One can > argue that the ‘best’ medicine is the Noble Eightfold Path but that was > not > the cure for all that the Buddha prescribed in every situation. .... Hmmm...I know what you’re saying. I think I’d rather say, it just depended how much the listeners could hear or appreciate. Often we think the advice given is merely conventional encouragment to ‘do good’ for example, but I think this reflects our limited understanding more than anything else. Certainly those who were enlightened would have understood every word as referring to dhammas with the 3 characteristics of anicca, dukkha and anatta. Like the examples of the different fields for planting seeds (AN), it depends on the understanding, how much can be appreciated. We discussed a sutta on ‘right livelihoods’ on our last visit to Bangkok. It can be read and appreciated at different levels I think. I’d be glad to discuss any specific examples further. ..... And each > > medicine can be called a path of practice. Take the perspective of the > person who got the advice from the Buddha, whatever that might be, for > her/him that is her/his path of practice. ...... I’m not sure it would necessarily be ‘the path of practice’ of satipatthana, however. Other paths of practice are bound to be with the wrong idea of a self developing. ..... > Michael: > I prefer to say insight into the three characteristics and not into > paramatha dhamma. In my opinion, as you are probably sick of hearing by > now, > paramatha dhamma is a dupe. ..... You would also consider the stages of insight a dupe too;-) The first stage of insight is the clear distinction between namas and rupas (both paramattha dhammas) by developing insight into their characteristics - ie seeing vs visible object etc. I agree that understanding the 3 characteristics begins to develop, but the knowledge of the impermanence and thereby unsatisfactoriness of these paramattha dhammas is clear at a later stage. Only a sotapanna has no more wrong view about self. The point I’m trying to make is that the 3 characteristics cannot be known as anything other than characteristics of paramattha dhammas. First, we have to clearly understand how these are distinct from concepts as I see it. .... > Michael: > I also read that, and try my best to practice it. But how about the > three > kinds of true knowledge? Except for the destruction of the taints, there > is > no reference in the Satipatthana Suttas about the other two kinds of > knowledge. And those 3 kinds of knowledge are the only true realization > of > the Buddhist path. So, who practices Satipatthana ignores the other 2 > kinds > of knowledge. And even so this is called a complete and only path? .... Thanks for clarifying and for Christine’s Qu on this;-): “The 3 kinds of true knowledge are the recollection of past lives, kamma and the destruction of the taints. There are many suttas that refer to this. Just to mention one - Culahatthipadopama Sutta (MN 27).” .... Firstly, no ‘we’ to practice and I believe practice has to start at the very beginning with the understanding of the objects of satipatthana so that sati and panna can develop. Full destruction of the taints is only at arahatship. There is no reference to recollection of past lives in some suttas because this refers to particular high jhanic attainments. At the highest level, no one but a Buddha could know anything which came to mind in the past, future or present. This isn’t an essential ingredient of the Eightfold Path! We read about these abilities because there were such large numbers of bhikkhus at that time who had already attained all jhanas and were also had ariyan level wisdom. As Nina’s quotes (my last post) showed, even attachment to these abilities has to be relinquished. Thanks for helping me to consider further, Michael. Do you have a reference for the ‘many medicines’ we can look at further? Metta, Sarah ====== 27302 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > I have read some of the posts (confess not all of them) and gather that > the > kernel of the discussion was around the sutta commentary. I haven’t seen > in > the posts the following remarks by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, if it has already > > been mentioned sorry for the redundancy: .... I think it may be new to DSG;-) Thx for reading some of the other posts in UP on 'luminous';-) A little more: .... TB:> “This statement (Luminous, monks, is the mind) has engendered a great > deal > of controversy over the centuries. The commentary maintains that "mind" > here > refers to the bhavanga-citta, the momentary mental state between periods > > when the mental stream adverts to objects, but this statement raises > more > questions than it answers. .... Agreed so far;-) .... T: >There is no reference to the bhavanga-citta > or > the mental stream in any of the suttas (they appear first in an > Abhidhamma > treatise, the Patthana); .... You might like to read this post of Nina’s. Though the names may not all be given, the ‘nucleus’ can be found in the Patisambhidamagga, for example. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m13819.html ..... T:>and because the commentaries compare the > bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? .... No kilesa. Vipaka cittas which are not experienced through the sense doors. No kilesa on account of the object. ..... T: >And why would > the > perception of its luminosity be a prerequisite for developing the mind? ..... It’s just to illustrate the transitory and fast-changing nature of cittas (see previous sutta about nothing being so fast changing as the mind (cittas)). Bhavanga cittas, seeing, attachment or aversion on account of what is seen, bhavanga cittas, mind door process with kilesa, bhavanga cittas etc. Wholesome and unwholesome states just arising momentarily with particular cittas. No fixed Pure Mind or self or storehouse. ..... T: > And > further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it > > mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” .... It wouldn’t;-) As the commentary clarifies, the wholesome and unwholesome states arise in the subsequent javana process and it is with the javana cittas when any development or panna arises too. Hence we also see that even for an arahant, there isn’t non-stop wisdom. It arises momentarily with specific cittas. We can begin to see that it really is true - mental states and cittas don't last at all. For those with highly developed wisdom, bhavanga cittas can be known I'm told. You may also like to read more about bhavanga cittas in UP;-) .... M: > BTW, the inclusion of bhavanga in the commentaries is another critique > that > DK makes of the commentaries for the same reasons outlined above. .... In the end, I think much depends on whether we have more confidence in our own and other modern interpretations or those of the ancient Theravada commentators which have been so carefully preserved and passed down to us. What we read in the commentaries is perfectly in accordance with the Abhidhamma and I understand both the Abhidhamma and the commentaries have been recited to a large extent from the very earliest days and the 1st Council. I know this isn’t a very popular view;-) Thanks for the quote and I look forward to any further comments you have. Metta, Sarah ==== 27303 From: ashkenn2k Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:18am Subject: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Nina and Howard > We may wonder how it is possible to be directly aware of what has just fallen away. Understanding can, but not without cultivating the right conditions. The groundwork: right understanding of what can be the object of mindfulness: any dhamma, citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself one at a time. Not rejecting akusala dhammas as object of awareness. Questioning and discussing knotty points, reflection, the development of all perfections, none excluded. > Nina. k: I think Howard has a point how does one experience a citta that has been ceased to exist. He also point out that we cannot be always using panna as the excuse for all. To me, I would prefer my previous explanation, the "passing" of information as one citta conditioned another to arise. I also have to be cleared that this passing of information is also impermanent as passing information also changes, also without an owner. Because of our habitual habits, we also have the notion that when we are mindful of feelings one citta and not two cittas. To me, Abdhidhamma is based on singularity, and one object is cognize at a time. There is no simultaneously cognization of two objects. kind regards Ken O 27304 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Jon and everyone, The suttas begin to become accessible to anyone who has acquired the "compounded to the nth degree" conceptual framework from which they sprang. Conceptual frameworks do not illuminate experience. The experience conceptually described as "red" gains nothing from optometry, opthalmology, physics, optics , you name it. "Red" is red, but ceases to be that when it becomes the object of thought. The remotest absorbtion in any conceptual frame of reference will prevent the experience "red". Instead of watching the sun rise, you could watch movies on TV of people talking about a man who once watched the sun rise. Or read the texts. An unborn foetus needs not be taught what "pain" is. Neither does it not experience "red" because it has not studied Gaugain, Monet, Picasso. The opposite is true. Those living in an identified and categorised reality are living in an illusory world, never arisen, never ceased, and without real consequence. (not to say there are no imagined consequences) Awareness does not need developing. Concepts need de-developing to get remotely near to awareness. Deconstruction by insight occurs, unplanned, and allows some to return to what there was before there were "the texts". To suggest that the texts need to be acquired in order to discard them is pretty funny. I see no evidence in any scriptures that awareness is developed, but plenty that awareness is uncovered. Like Larry says, the path of the Buddha is cessation, not development. The empty mind is joyful, and not because it says so in a book. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > It's been a while. Welcome back. I'm doing fine, thanks. > > Are you suggesting I should talk more about my personal experience > and less about what is in the suttas (yes, I do know the difference > ;-))? I can assure you that would be a retrograde step, not to > mention deadly boring for everyone else. > > The suttas contain the teachings of the Buddha (that was true at the > time he lived, and it's true now). Some of us think that he knew a > thing or two worth learning, but that this can only be done by > repeated study of the texts *as well as* the application of what has > been learnt from that study so far. > > He who thinks awareness can be developed without reference to the > texts has only his own ignorance and wrong view for a guide. > > Well, you asked me, and that's what I think ;-)) > > Good talking to you. > > Jon > > wrote: > Hi, Jon and everyone, > > > > How are you? > ... > > Have you ever experienced anything that is in the suttas? > > Have you ever experienced anything that is not in the suttas? > > Have you ever experienced a sutta? > > > > Which comparisons are without conceit? > > > > What is happening right now? (Hint: It is not in a book.) A foetus > > in the process of being aborted is more aware of what is happening > > at the present moment than a person attempting to link an > > experience > > to something they have read. Awareness has no prerequisites. > > Awareness does not need to be identified and / or categorised in > > order for it to be awareness. The identification and categorisation > > of awareness is the basis for proliferation of unawareness. > > > > The suttas are not more to the point. The suttas require a whole > > lot > > of existing and pre - existing culture (yes, yoghurt) to make any > > sense at all. The suttas are less to the point. Awareness ceases > > the moment thinking cuts in. > > > > What do you think? 27305 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > What do you think? .... Good to see you around again;-) Hoping you and your family are all well. .... > All the best .... Likewise. Look forward to hearing more from you. Metta, Sarah ===== 27306 From: Sarah Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Nina, Robert and Michael Hi RobertK, --- rjkjp1 wrote: > I wrote this letter to a mahayana monk, Venerable Heng Shure of San > Francisco. He knows Acharn Sujin very well from meetings in Thailand > and America. We had a email discussion a few years ago. ..... A few years ago already!! Seems like a few months ago to me. I remember the discussions and appreciate reading your post again with all its helpful detail. (Two quotes below from it) Metta, Sarah ======= > Take a moment of seeing: For seeing to arise there > must be cakkhu > pasada (seeing base). This is the extremely refined > rupa that arises in the center of the eye. This > special rupa is the result of kamma. But > it only lasts for the briefest moment before falling > away . The reason we can keep seeing is that at this > moment the force of the kamma is still working to > continue replacing the cakkhu pasada. The visible eye, > the eyeball, and the surrounding matter, the rest of > the body, are also conditioned by different conditions > - not only kamma- and these rupas also only last for a > moment before vanishing forever. Every conditioning > factor is simarly evanescent as is every conditioned > moment. >The dhammas themselves are not > different from the quality they posses. In fact the > Atthasalini says that "there is > no other thing than the quality born by it" . 27307 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 0:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/24/03 12:33:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > op 21-11-2003 22:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > odd. One wonders (at least > >*this* one does! ;-) why cetasikas are called concomitants, since they are > >supposedly never observed at the same time, and also how it is that it can > be > >known > >that a cetasika, currently experienced, actually *previously* occurred! > N: It is not odd. > The groundwork: right understanding of what can be the object of > mindfulness: any dhamma, citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself one at > a time. Not rejecting akusala dhammas as object of awareness. Questioning > and discussing knotty points, reflection, the development of all > perfections, none excluded. > Nina. > ============================= I've been thinking over this matter, Nina, and I think I've come to the nub of my position. It seems to me that experiencing something *as an object* is only one way of experiencing a thing. In particular, the difference is most easily seen with regard to feelings and emotions. There is a difference between being angry and experiencing anger as an object, there is a difference between being happy and experincing happiness as an object, and there is a difference between experiencing a taste or touch etc as pleasant and experincing that pleasantness as an object. This difference is the difference between a "participatory" or non-dual (oh, oh! ;-) mode of experiencing and the subject-object mode. [BTW, on one occasion, at a meditation retreat, I spent a couple hours entirely in the "participatory mode," and not just as regards the affective aspect of experience, but it is not my intention here and now to be using that as demonstration of anything. For all I know, that may well have been simply some odd, disassociative state - though I doubt it, for the fallout from it was most beneficial.] With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27308 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Herman We have a number of members who reject the Abhidhamma and commentaries, but I think you're taking the discussion to a new level in suggesting the suttas be rejected too! Tell me, if you had a chance to hear the Buddha himself would you choose not to do so because of the conceptual framework involved? I presume not, otherwise you wouldn't be here. In which case you perhaps you see an essential difference in this regard between hearing the Buddha live and reading his words some (considerable) time centuries later What is that crucial factor? And even so, isn't reading the suttas the next best thing to hearing the man himself live? You mention awareness. Do you consider that the awareness you are talking about is the same awareness as the Buddha talked about? If yes, how are you able to know this? I don’t disagree at all with the notion that destruction by insight occurs unplanned. But do you say that insight itself occurs sufficiently without the development of the conditions for its arising? Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon and everyone, > > The suttas begin to become accessible to anyone who has acquired > the "compounded to the nth degree" conceptual framework from which > they sprang. Conceptual frameworks do not illuminate experience. ... > Awareness does not need developing. Concepts need de-developing to > get remotely near to awareness. Deconstruction by insight occurs, > unplanned, and allows some to return to what there was before there > were "the texts". To suggest that the texts need to be acquired in > order to discard them is pretty funny. > > I see no evidence in any scriptures that awareness is developed, > but > plenty that awareness is uncovered. Like Larry says, the path of > the Buddha is cessation, not development. > > The empty mind is joyful, and not because it says so in a book. 27309 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - Howard: The fundamental question that arises for me is: "Exactly *where* does the alleged group of dhammas (only one of which is experienced) arise?". For example, when one is experiencing the coldness of a "metal rod", exactly *where* is the hardness? For that matter, other than as an object of consciousness *where* is the coldness? Jon: I'm not sure I see the significance of this piece of information. Are you suggesting it's something we really need to know the answer to, or that the co arising of several rupas only 1 of which is experienced is an impossibility? Howard: Another closely related question is: "By what means is one aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), when only one rupa is experienced?" Jon: Well obviously one wouldn't know it at the moment of just experiencing 1 rupa. But one could know it myriad mind-moments later by thinking about what has just been seen and/or heard etc at that moment/those moments and all the moments preceding and following, and by recollection of previous experiences, etc. In other words, one knows it 'inferentially' as you would say. Does this sound feasible? Jon 27310 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 6:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 (Jon) Shakti Hi, and sorry for the delay in replying, but I had noticed that Nina gave a quick but complete answer (thanks Nina). Sorry about the confusion caused by whatever it was I said. Enjoying your posts lately (and sorry to hear about the deaths of people close to you). Jon --- shakti wrote: > Jon, I'm confused about something that you said. I thought that I > heard once, that citta could never take concepts as an object. ??? > With metta, shakti > > Jonothan Abbott wrote: > ---snip --- > > I don't see that as a necessary assumption. To my understanding, > consciousness takes only 1 object (dhamma, or a concept) at a time. 27311 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Michael, Thanks for your reply. Near death, the body or Rupa that Citta depends is very very week. In the matter of Javana, the usual way is to arise as 7 successive Citta which are all the same in nature. But the effect are different. The first, middle 5 and the last have different effects. There are other occassions that less than 7 Cittas arise in the matter of Javana. Embryos, fetuses, very young babies are weak in away and there is possibility of less number of Javana Cittas. In dying person, there also are less number of Cittas in their Javana. The last series of Javana Cittas is only 5 in number. It is called Maranaasannajavana Cittas. In case of Bhagava, when He has to show up Yamaka Payatiha, Javana Cittas have to arise in just 3 or 4 in number as many Cittas have to arise in succession. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ---------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Htoo, > > Htoo: > In the absence of this very bad Kamma, if Jhana cannot be obtained, > Asanna Kamma will help a lot. > > > Michael: > Thank you for the very technical explanation. Also one should keep in mind > that at the moment of rebirth consciousness which is very near death, the > consciousness is vey weak, only 4 or 5 javanas ( I am not sure) instead of > the 7 in a normal process. > > Metta > Michael 27312 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 7:48am Subject: Re: Marana, Death Clock, Anicca And Kammatthana Dear Howard, Yes. You are right. I also agree what you mentioned in your post. Yes.Things could not be other than as they are. I means things in their ultimate senses. Happy you With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Shakti - > > In a message dated 11/23/03 1:00:14 PM Eastern Standard Time, > deannajohnsonusa@y... writes: > > > I thought someone a few weeks ago asked, what is the purpose of life? I > > have been wondering about that too. This is a question as old as mankind. > > When I contemplate death, life seems so meaningless so empty. Is the purpose of > > life, if there is one, to experience just the eternal now? Sometimes it > > feels like a puzzle to be solved. Is it to understand the nature of reality, > > dukkha, anatta, anicca? Why? > > > ========================= > It seems to me that the notion of 'purpose of life' presupposes a > design. I believe that the world, including all realms of existence and > experience, is a vast mosaic of designs, with the kamma of multitudes of interacting > mindstreams constituting the "designer". This is how I see the matter. But one > then could ask why are things as they are. It seems to me that an appropriate > answer might be "How could things be other than as they are?". > > With metta, > Howard > 27313 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 9:47am Subject: Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Sarah, You are right, I did not provide references to the quotes in my last message to you. Here they are: "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & fully aware, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html You found a reference to the teaching on the five aggregates. But that does not address the problem of clinging to wholesome states, if there is such a problem at all. Now, is clinging to wholesome states sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, or doctrine of self clinging? Is generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen and for the maintenance, non- confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen clinging to wholesome states? Is cultivating, developing, pursuing renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure clinging to wholesome states? Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27314 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:14am Subject: anapanasati, II . anapanasati, II a. Insertion of Jon's remarks on the subject. Jon: (to Rob Ep): -As in the case of any sutta, one needs to ask the question, 'What exactly is the message being conveyed here, and to/for whom?'. Nina has already given us a lot of material from the commentarial texts, which to me give a clear answer to those questions. However, as I know you have reservations about the authenticity of the commentaries, I would like to make one or two observations based on the text of the sutta alone, taking the first part of the passage quoted by you below as an example. 1/. A closer look at the wording of the text. The structure of the passage is rather complex, so I think it helps to break it down a little. Here’s my breakdown-- (a) Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in [or out] long [or short] discerns that he is breathing in [or out] long [or short]; (b) trains himself to breathe in or out sensitive to the entire body, or calming bodily fabrication: (c) On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. (d) I tell you, monks, that this -- the in-&-out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. … (e) This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. To me, the words 'on whatever occasion' in par. (a) indicate that what immediately follows is not meant to be instructional’, but to describe a situation that may occur. I see that expression as equivalent to present-day in the case where’. The key to the whole passage seems to be par. (c), because it is here that the first reference to mindfulness is found. Note, however, that par. (c) does not tell us *how* mindfulness is to be developed, but seems to refer to *mindfulness arising and taking a specific object, namely the body (i.e., rupas)*. So my reading of the whole passage would be something like this: *If* there is mindfulness of rupa as rupa ['the body in and of itself', in par. (c)] while focussing on the breath [as described in par. (a) and (b)] then this is mindfulness of breathing for the purposes of satipatthana [par. (d)]. 2/. The preliminary/underlying assumptions In the sutta, the whole passage on mindfulness of breathing, including the part quoted in your post, is preceded by the following: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "There is the case where a monk, having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, and setting mindfulness to the fore. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out..." This sets the context for what follows, including the passage discussed at 1/. above. I would like to focus on some particular aspects of this introductory section. Again, a breakdown may be helpful: (a) *There is the case where* a monk, (b) *having gone to the wilderness*, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building, sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect, (c) and *sets mindfulness to the fore*. (d) *Always mindful*, he breathes in" Again, this is a "case where" situation, not a "do this" passage [par. (a)]. To my reading, it refers to a particular class of monk, namely one who is not only leading the homeless life but is doing so in the manner recommended by the Buddha for those who wish to develop samatha to a high degree [par. (b)], and in whom both samatha with breath as object and mindfulness/satipatthana are well developed [par. (c) and (d)]. Who else could 'set mindfulness to the fore' and be 'always mindful' when breathing? It is to such a person that the rest of the sutta is pitched. Howard, I hope these comments give you some idea as to why I do not read the sutta as a general exhortation to practise mindfulness of breathing as a means of developing satipatthana, but rather as being directed to those with already-developed samatha where breath is the object. (I am of course not saying the sutta has no relevance or application to the rest of us, but simply that it has to be understood in its proper context.) Jon 27315 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas, doing their work Hi Howard, op 22-11-2003 20:22 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > there is, it is said, a group of co-arising rupas, only one of > which impinges on a sense door at a time - only one of which appears at a > time. > At the time that one of these is experienced, where do the others reside? N: They are there in that group, arising and falling away together with colour which is experienced. In countless suttas we read that the Buddha taught about different contacts through the six doors. When there is eye-contact there cannot be ear-contact or body-contact at the same time. Let us take colour: it impinges on the eyesense. There is solidity with colour, but this does not impinge on the eyesense. As we read with Larry: vis. XIV,37: the eye. It function is . It could not pick up solidity. Solidity arises together with colour and its function is to be a foundation of it, supporting it, and also the other three primaries are together, as well as three other rupas. They all fit into the group, they are unknown, silent, but they do their work all the same! Their presence, though extremely short, is indispensable. H: For example, "where" is the solidity at the time it is not felt, but sight is > active instead? These others cannot reside in "the rock", for "the rock" is > not > an existent. N: They reside in an infinitesimally small unit or group of rupas, arising and falling away. Rock is only an example we can use to illustrate that what we call rock is actually many units of rupa arising and falling away, just like chariot. H: Do they reside in some Buddhist equivalent to Plato's world of > forms? ;-) Do you see the problem? N:No problem. There are the six worlds in the ariyan discipline: the world appearing through the eyes, the ears. etc. Only one world at a time, and these do not last! Perhaps there is a problem for a phenomenologist?;-) Nina. 27316 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas op 23-11-2003 02:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "Kamma does not produce what we call a rock, only temperature > produces rupas which are not of a living body." L: Does this mean the rupa that is the object of consciousness > (e.g.,visible data) is different from the rupa we call a rock? Can we > call this object of consciousness living rupa? N: In conventional language we say: I see a rock. But seeing experiences only what appears through the eyes. The rock has a colour, but what actually happens when your eyes are open? There are many different moments of seeing we all join together (in our thoughts) as one experience. But actually, also what is next to the rock, such as the background, the colour of a tree or sky is seen. Just all that appears through eyes, no need to name it rock or tree. When you name or define, or pay attention to shape and form it is not seeing. We have to learn the characteristic of seeing. Difficult, because we are so used to think about seeing. Rupa is not alive, but rupas of the body have life-faculty, another rupa which does not know or feel anything. It just has a function of "maintaining" conascent rupas (Vis. XIV, 59). 27317 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Just a few additional comments on the luminous mind: Thanissaro: and because the commentaries compare the bhavanga-citta to deep sleep, why is it called luminous? Sarah: No kilesa. Vipaka cittas which are not experienced through the sense doors. No kilesa on account of the object. Michael: Well, in keeping with the doctrine of kamma and rebirth, this present life of ours is the direct result of what we have intentionally committed in the past. Therefore the relinking consciousness which gives rise to the present stream of consciousness is the resultant consciousness of the previous kamma. If the last thought moment of the previous life was totally free from taints then this resultant life continuum would not have come into being. It follows that the mind that causes rebirth is a mind with defilements. Therefore the life continuum cannot be completely immune to corruption. T: And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” S: It wouldn’t;-) M: Yeah, but the sutta says ‘Luminous is the mind, and it is freed from incoming defilements’ and that assumes development of the mind or development of bhavanga-citta. So the question still stands, what does it mean to develop bhavanga-citta. Sarah; In the end, I think much depends on whether we have more confidence in our own and other modern interpretations or those of the ancient Theravada commentators which have been so carefully preserved and passed down to us. What we read in the commentaries is perfectly in accordance with the Abhidhamma and I understand both the Abhidhamma and the commentaries have been recited to a large extent from the very earliest days and the 1st Council. Michael: I am sorry to say that Bhikkhu Bodhi would not agree with you, in the Introduction to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha he quotes ‘Even in the Abhidhamma itself the dhamma teory is not yet expressed as an explicit philosophical tenet, this comes only later in the commentaries.’ This also addresses your second remark, since the Abhidhamma was recited only during the Third Council, Bhikkhu Bodhi is saying that the commentaries are later than that. Metta Michael 27318 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sarah, Sarah: You would also consider the stages of insight a dupe too;-). Michael: No, just paramatha dhamma and their sabhava. This is what I consider a dupe. In that respect the commentators went too far and have assumed a position of essentialism. For those who love that concept I urge to carefully study the arguments of Nagarjuna in order to dispel that attachment. Even without sabhava the Abhidhamma is great. I like it a lot. Metta Michael 27319 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 0:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Hi, Sarah (and Jon) - In a message dated 11/24/2003 2:13:03 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > > Hi Howard (& Jon), > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > > H: >I recently found in Kalupahana's book, The Principles of Buddhist > Philosophy, some of which I like a lot, and some of > which I disagree with, a reference to a sutta of the Digha > > Nikaya, D 2.62. I have the Walshe version of the DN, and I cannot figure > out which sutta this is. > ..... > This time, no problem locating the reference (which is to the Pali text): > > Walshe transl: p.225, Mahaanidaana sutta, starting at 19. > (if you look at the top left corner of the page, you'll see ii,62) > > For those who have BB's excel.transl with commentaries, p.50, starting at > 19. > > Lots of detail here;-) > > Where Walshe gives the footnote 337 to 'body-factor' (ruupa-kaaya), PTS > transl gives a footnote to ruupakaaye adhivacanasamphasso. > > BB transl of comy (small taste;-)): > > "..... Designation-contact (adhivacanasamphassa) is synonymous with> Hope I’ve helped. I intended to just quickly give you the reference, but > as you’ll have seen, I got interested;-). This closely relates to recent > Visuddhimagga extracts too. > > I’ll be glad to hear comments or corrections or to clarify anything > further. > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Howard, appreciating other posts of yours on Death to > Shakti and on > sabhava to Michael. ---------------------------- Howard: Thanks. ============================ Sarah, thank you very much for this post. Now that you have informed me as to which sutta this is, I will study it (I own the Walshe book), and then reply to this post of yours. I sort of suspected that Kalupahana might be translating the sutta and/or giving a "spin" to it in a way that supported his point of view, which in this area is similar to mine. But I prefer not to be deluded! ;-) So, I will study this sutta and get back to you. With metta, Howard 27320 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 0:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi, Herman - This is a brief one of those "sadhu posts"! ;-) Without giving specifics, and though there are a few monor bones I could pick, I just want to tell you that there is very much that I like a lot here! With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/24/2003 7:33:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Jon and everyone, > > The suttas begin to become accessible to anyone who has acquired > the "compounded to the nth degree" conceptual framework from which > they sprang. Conceptual frameworks do not illuminate experience. The > experience conceptually described as "red" gains nothing from > optometry, opthalmology, physics, optics , you name it. "Red" is > red, but ceases to be that when it becomes the object of thought. > The remotest absorbtion in any conceptual frame of reference will > prevent the experience "red". Instead of watching the sun rise, you > could watch movies on TV of people talking about a man who once > watched the sun rise. Or read the texts. > > An unborn foetus needs not be taught what "pain" is. Neither does it > not experience "red" because it has not studied Gaugain, Monet, > Picasso. The opposite is true. Those living in an identified and > categorised reality are living in an illusory world, never arisen, > never ceased, and without real consequence. (not to say there are no > imagined consequences) > > Awareness does not need developing. Concepts need de-developing to > get remotely near to awareness. Deconstruction by insight occurs, > unplanned, and allows some to return to what there was before there > were "the texts". To suggest that the texts need to be acquired in > order to discard them is pretty funny. > > I see no evidence in any scriptures that awareness is developed, but > plenty that awareness is uncovered. Like Larry says, the path of the > Buddha is cessation, not development. > > The empty mind is joyful, and not because it says so in a > book. > > > All the best > > > > Herman 27321 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 0:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/24/2003 9:00:47 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - > Howard: > The fundamental question that arises for me is: "Exactly > *where* does the alleged group of dhammas (only one of which is > experienced) arise?". For example, when one is experiencing the > coldness of a "metal rod", exactly *where* is the hardness? For that > matter, other than as an object of consciousness *where* is the > coldness? > > Jon: > I'm not sure I see the significance of this piece of information. > Are you suggesting it's something we really need to know the answer > to, or that the co arising of several rupas only 1 of which is > experienced is an impossibility? ------------------------------ Howard: Ahh! now, jon, you may be getting an inkling of how I feel about much that is in the Abhidhamma! ;-) The significance is in seeing the plausibility of a suggested scheme, as opposed to taking it on faith. (As I pointed out in another post, there is no conventional object in which these rupas can inhere, for that is concept-only.) ------------------------------ > > Howard: > Another closely related question is: "By what means is one > aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), > when only one rupa is experienced?" > > Jon: > Well obviously one wouldn't know it at the moment of just > experiencing 1 rupa. But one could know it myriad mind-moments later > by thinking about what has just been seen and/or heard etc at that > moment/those moments and all the moments preceding and following, and > by recollection of previous experiences, etc. In other > words, one > knows it 'inferentially' as you would say. > > Does this sound feasible? ------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------ > > Jon ======================== With metta, Howard 27322 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 1:58pm Subject: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, [snip] > We may wonder how it is possible to be directly aware of what has just > fallen away. Understanding can, but not without cultivating the right > conditions. > The groundwork: right understanding of what can be the object of > mindfulness: any dhamma, citta, cetasika or rupa that presents itself one at > a time. Not rejecting akusala dhammas as object of awareness. Questioning > and discussing knotty points, reflection, the development of all > perfections, none excluded. > Nina. Dear Nina, Thank you for these wonderful reminders. There is so much good reading on dsg., but these reminders of yours I like the best, so to the point. So often, I dislike the dhammas that arise and quickly want to be rid of them eg Mana - but as you say - not rejecting akusala dhammas that can be object of awareness. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27323 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, michael (and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/24/2003 2:22:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: Well, in keeping with the doctrine of kamma and rebirth, this > present life of ours is the direct result of what we have intentionally > committed in the past. Therefore the relinking consciousness which gives > rise to the present stream of consciousness is the resultant consciousness > of the previous kamma. If the last thought moment of the previous life was > totally free from taints then this resultant life continuum would not have > come into being. It follows that the mind that causes rebirth is a mind with > defilements. Therefore the life continuum cannot be > completely immune to > corruption. ============================= I think your reasoning here is impeccable, Michael. With metta, Howard 27324 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 3:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi Nina, Would it be correct to say rupas that are produced by temperature are not objects of consciousness because all the rupas that are objects of consciousness are produced by kamma? Larry 27325 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Cooran meeting Dear Nina, Thank you for your interest in our humble Cooran group. ------------- N: > Looking forward to your report after you had your meeting in Cooran. I like to know about your discussion on anapanasati after reading my Co quotes. <..> When is it? -------------- We meet this coming weekend. Andrew has been on the phone insisting that I have your Co quotes summarised, printed and ready for distribution. He seems to think I will leave it till the last minute. (Plenty of time, Andrew.) -------------- N: > And details about what you were eating, who did the cooking, animals, etc. And you have a fire outside? --------------- I hope there will be a campfire, it depends on whether Reg is prepared to build it. My role is more of an advisory one. Another thing I am looking forward to is meeting my old friend Klaas de Jong. He is a countryman of yours who founded the group. He is quite old now and rarely leaves Brisbane; some of us haven't seen him in years. --------------- N: > P.S. Is there no shark danger where you do your surfing? Take care, we need you on dsg. --------------- You are too kind. Sharks are rarely seen around Noosa except by fishermen who say they are quite common. They keep to themselves and are frightened by people and surfboards. We are more likely to get killed in our cars driving to and from the beach. Kind regards, Ken H 27326 From: Carl Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 4:51pm Subject: New Member I am another new member and have been lurking and reading the posts for a week or so now. And also reading the books of Nina. Learning and studying the Abhidhamma is kinda like playing tag with a steam- roller :) Just the moment you think you have some understanding it runs right over the top of you! I am so happy to be here among the authors writing on the Abhidhamma and the very astute contributors of this group. I appreciate the close adherance, scrutiny and devotion to Lord Buddha's Dhamma. The Abhidhamma seems as a magnifying glass on the teachings of Buddha and for me seems to bring the teachings into clarity. I wonder this: Cittas are only existant within bodies (the 5 aggregates) they (cittas) are present nowhere else. With the crumbling of the aggregates, cittas are gone. Cittas are a reality. The body is not a reality. The body is not a Citta. So I ponder a reality (citta) that exists within and is dependent upon a non reality (the 5 aggregates). Anyway, I find it appealing that "reality" may depend upon and be born by "non- reality". I am sure I must have my wires crossed somewhere :) It is an honor to be here. Carl 27327 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 2:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/24/03 8:40:46 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Would it be correct to say rupas that are produced by temperature are > not objects of consciousness because all the rupas that are objects of > consciousness are produced by kamma? > > ========================== Does any dhamma arise from a single condition? Why must arising from temperature and arising from kamma be mutually exclusive? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27328 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Howard: "Does any dhamma arise from a single condition? Why must arising from temperature and arising from kamma be mutually exclusive?" Hi Howard, Generally, you are correct. Most rupa is produced by a combination of 4 causes: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment. Plus countless conditional relations figure into the mix. I think? "climatic and geological transformations" are produced only by temperature *plus conditions*. I am wondering if any rupa that doesn't have kamma as one of its producers can be an object of consciousess? I thought all rupa that is an object of consciousness is a result of kamma. I just looked in CMA and I see that sound is not produced by kamma (intentional sound, e.g. speech, is produced by kamma). Maybe there is a difference between "produced by kamma" and "result of kamma". Larry 27329 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 8:32pm Subject: Re: New Member Nice to have you here Carl, The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities(paramattha dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the shadow of what is really there. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > I> I wonder this: Cittas are only existant within bodies (the 5 > aggregates) they (cittas) are present nowhere else. With the > crumbling of the aggregates, cittas are gone. > Cittas are a reality. The body is not a reality. The body is not a > Citta. So I ponder a reality (citta) that exists within and is > dependent upon a non reality (the 5 aggregates). Anyway, I find it > appealing that "reality" may depend upon and be born by "non- > reality". I am sure I must have my wires crossed somewhere :) > It is an honor to be here. Carl 27330 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi, Larry - In the following you ask "I am wondering if any rupa that doesn't have kamma as one of its producers can be an object of consciousess?" In all seriousness I have to ask in return "If not, how would anyone know?" With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/24/03 11:27:52 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Generally, you are correct. Most rupa is produced by a combination of 4 > causes: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment. Plus countless > conditional relations figure into the mix. I think? "climatic and > geological transformations" are produced only by temperature *plus > conditions*. I am wondering if any rupa that doesn't have kamma as one > of its producers can be an object of consciousess? I thought all rupa > that is an object of consciousness is a result of kamma. I just looked > in CMA and I see that sound is not produced by kamma (intentional sound, > e.g. speech, is produced by kamma). Maybe there is a difference between > "produced by kamma" and "result of kamma". > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27331 From: Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 5:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Hi, Robert - In a message dated 11/24/03 11:37:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Nice to have you here Carl, > The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities(paramattha > dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only > conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the > shadow of what is really there. > RobertK ========================= Don't you mean that the dhammas subsumed by the five aggregates are paramattha dhammas? The aggregates themselves, being collections of dhammas, are concept-only, are they not? While instances of hardness are experienced, and sights are experienced, and smells, and tastes, etc, the aggregate of these things is never experienced; there is just the thought/idea of that collection. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27332 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Jon and Howard > > Jon: > > I'm not sure I see the significance of this piece of information. > > > Are you suggesting it's something we really need to know the > answer > to, or that the co arising of several rupas only 1 of which is > experienced is an impossibility? > ------------------------------ > Howard: > Ahh! now, jon, you may be getting an inkling of how I feel > about much that is in the Abhidhamma! ;-) > The significance is in seeing the plausibility of a suggested > scheme, as opposed to taking it on faith. (As I pointed out in > another post, there is no conventional object in which these rupas > can inhere, for that is concept-only.) > ------------------------------ k: Even with these several rupas that co-arising, the citta as we know only cognize one object. How does we know that only one rupa is being the object much depends on conditional relations, depending which rupa is a "stronger" condition for one particular citta to arise. > > > > Howard: > > Another closely related question is: "By what means is one > > aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), > > when only one rupa is experienced?" k: Such an experience can only be able to experience and explain by the wisdom of Buddha. I think without him, not many Arahat will know about also, only certain Great Arahats. In my opinion, this is a natural law for rupas to co-arise together. Only one is choose, they rest will fall away and cease to exist (also a natural law). This is also similar to the universal cetasikas where seven arise together with each citta but only one is arise and depend on condition relations, which cetasikas will be cognize. kind regards Ken O 27333 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah and Micheal (Suan) I remember talking about this also why can't bhavanga citta be developed and I remember Suan said that bhavanga citta can also be changed in this lifetime. I hope Suan is around to verify it. I also tend to believe that bhavanga citta can be changed in this life time, since every citta has latent tendecies and such tendecies can be changed or not what is the point of learning Buddhism. If latent tendecies cannot be change in bhavanga citta then we are all in big trouble bc it is bhavanga citta that substains our continuity when there is no sense object. I thought Suan has wrote the commentaries and sub-commentaries on this issue which I think describe it clearly why it is luminoius. Kind regards Ken O 27334 From: blue lan Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Hi, Carol: Somehow, after read your idea, i think we need to go back to see what an example the Buddha had said to us--- lotus. The Buddha makes such a good example---between people who could understand the five aggregates and cittas (or they are connected each other). I am a Taiwanness, i read some of sutras in which also be written by Chinese chatacters. By the way, i an also a new member here, and reading the posts for a couple of weeks. This letter is my first to post my opinion. Blue Carl wrote: I am another new member and have been lurking and reading the posts for a week or so now. And also reading the books of Nina. Learning and studying the Abhidhamma is kinda like playing tag with a steam- roller :) Just the moment you think you have some understanding it runs right over the top of you! I am so happy to be here among the authors writing on the Abhidhamma and the very astute contributors of this group. I appreciate the close adherance, scrutiny and devotion to Lord Buddha's Dhamma. The Abhidhamma seems as a magnifying glass on the teachings of Buddha and for me seems to bring the teachings into clarity. I wonder this: Cittas are only existant within bodies (the 5 aggregates) they (cittas) are present nowhere else. With the crumbling of the aggregates, cittas are gone. Cittas are a reality. The body is not a reality. The body is not a Citta. So I ponder a reality (citta) that exists within and is dependent upon a non reality (the 5 aggregates). Anyway, I find it appealing that "reality" may depend upon and be born by "non- reality". I am sure I must have my wires crossed somewhere :) It is an honor to be here. Carl 27335 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Mon Nov 24, 2003 11:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael, > Michael: No, just paramatha dhamma and their sabhava. This is what I > consider a dupe. In that respect the commentators went too far and have > assumed a position of essentialism. For those who love that concept I urge > to carefully study the arguments of Nagarjuna in order to dispel that > attachment. Even without sabhava the Abhidhamma is great. I like it a lot. Now you have aroused my curiosity ;-). Can you please direct me to any such material on the internet? I lack patience in reading, so please if possible choose one with the most simple writing style and minimum amount of reading. Thanks in advance. Metta, Sukin. 27336 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > Michael: Well, in keeping with the doctrine of kamma and rebirth, this > present life of ours is the direct result of what we have intentionally > committed in the past. Therefore the relinking consciousness which gives > rise to the present stream of consciousness is the resultant > consciousness > of the previous kamma. If the last thought moment of the previous life > was > totally free from taints then this resultant life continuum would not > have > come into being. ..... S: Agreed so far. Good Abhidhamma knowledge;-) ..... M: >It follows that the mind that causes rebirth is a mind > with > defilements. Therefore the life continuum cannot be completely immune to > corruption. .... S: We need to distinguish between anusaya (latent tendencies) and ‘corruption’ which arises with akusala cittas in the javana process. From the commentary, translated here by Nina: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8386 >dampi nirupakkilesataaya parisuddhanti pabhassara.m. ta~nca khoti ta.m bhava"ngacitta.m. N: It is also pure, because it is unsoiled (by defilements); thus luminous. That indeed, meaning, that life-continuum. aagantukehiiti asahajaatehi pacchaa javanakkha.ne uppajjanakehi. N: ‘by oncoming’(defilements). by those that are not conascent with it, but arise later at the moment of impulsion (javana). upakkilesehiiti raagaadiihi upakkili.t.thattaa upakkili.t.tha.m naamaati vuccati. N: ‘by defilements’. By being soiled by desire etc. it is indeed called defiled.< ***** S: I know you’ve read many of the posts in UP and are familiar with the Abhidhamma, but as this is a difficult area, let me re-quote Nina’s comments here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/8408 N: >Remarks:The upakilesas, defilements arising with the citta (different from the anusayas,latent tendencies who do not arise with the akusala citta but can condition akusala), are like visitors from outside. It seems disturbing, but we have to note: the ariyan knows the citta as it really is: yathaabutta. One has to know also akusala citta as it is, otherwise one cannot become an ariyan, this is stressed in this short sutta. Yathaabhuuta: bhuuta: that which has grown, is, exists, the truth. yathaabhuuta: in its real essence, according to the truth. vippamutta: pamu~ncati: to release. The Atthasalini speaks about the bhavangacitta as being pure, using the word pa.n.dara (I, Book I, Part IV, Ch II, 140) : "Mind also is said to be clear in the sense of exceedingly pure with reference to the Bhavanga-citta." Now I like to quote from Acharn's Survey of Paramattha dhammas where she explains about the bhavanga-citta which is different from the cittas experiencing objects impinging on the six doors. She explains that when one is fast asleep one does not know who one is or where one is, one does not experience the world. When one wakes up the world appears, one experiences all the objects impinging on the six doors and then these objects give rise to defilements. The bhavanga-citta, life-continuum, that has the function of keeping continuity in the life of an individual, arises when fast asleep and also in between the processes of cittas. Thus our life, consisting of an uninterrupted series of cittas, goes on. The bhavanga-citta experiences the same object as the rebirth-consciousness, and this object is like an echo of the object experienced shortly before the dying-consciousness of the previous life. This citta is pure, but it does not mean that there are no latent tendencies of defilements, anusayas, which lie dormant in the citta. It is called pure or luminous, because at that moment no defilements arise. I quote: < The citta is pure only at the moment it does not experience an object through the doors of eyes, ears, nose, tongue, bodysense or mind. Everybody who is fast asleep looks innocent, pure, he does not experience like or dislike, he is not jealous, stingy, conceited, he has no lovingkindness nor compassion; thus, unwholesome or wholesome qualities do not arise because he does not see, hear, experience tangible object or think. However, it should be known that whenever the citta which arises experiences an object through one of the six doors, citta is not pure. The reason is that many different defilements have been accumulated in the citta and these condition the arising of pleasure and attachment when one sees something pleasant, and the arising of displeasure and annoyance when one sees something unpleasant.>* The person who is enlightened, the ariyasaavako, has eradicated anusayas by the development of pa~n~naa of the eightfold Path. It is pa~n~naa which knows realities as they are, yathaabhuuta, no other way. Anusayas are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment, and only the arahat is freed from all defilements, he has no more latent tendencies of defilements, no conditions for their arising. Nina. ****** > T: And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, what > would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” > > S: It wouldn’t;-) > > M: Yeah, but the sutta says ‘Luminous is the mind, and it is freed from > incoming defilements’ and that assumes development of the mind or > development of bhavanga-citta. So the question still stands, what does > it > mean to develop bhavanga-citta. .... S: It doesn’t mean development of bhavanga-citta. See commentary above. Bhavanga citta is never developed and continues to experience the same object throughout life as you explained. ..... > Michael: > I am sorry to say that Bhikkhu Bodhi would not agree with you, in the > Introduction to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha he quotes ‘Even in the > Abhidhamma > itself the dhamma theory is not yet expressed as an explicit > philosophical > tenet, this comes only later in the commentaries.’ This also addresses > your > second remark, since the Abhidhamma was recited only during the Third > Council, Bhikkhu Bodhi is saying that the commentaries are later than > that. .... S: Oh Michael. you’re sneaking in a few more controversial topics into this already super-controversial thread;-) I’ll leave aside BB’s comment (??) for now. The commentaries were started during the Buddha’s time and added to as appropriate. The Abhidhamma for the most part was recited at the First Council. See UP under ‘Abhidhamma - its origins’ and ‘Commentaries’. I’m glad to see you read the Abhidammattha Sangaha;-) Metta, Sarah * From 'Survey of Paramattha Dhammas' by Sujin Boriharnwanaket, transl by Nina. It can be found on one of RobertK's websites full of good material: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ http://www.vipassana.info/ ===== 27337 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 0:54am Subject: Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > Michael: No, just paramatha dhamma and their sabhava. This is what I > consider a dupe. In that respect the commentators went too far and have > assumed a position of essentialism. For those who love that concept I > urge > to carefully study the arguments of Nagarjuna in order to dispel that > attachment. Even without sabhava the Abhidhamma is great. I like it a > lot. .... Ok, that’s a big help;-) Let’s look at the beginning of the first book of the Abhidhamma Pitaka, the Dhammasangani, Icaro’s favourite (icaro, I need your help!). Para 2 is on Howard’s cetasika of the month - phasso (contact) which he and I are discussing. I’m using the PTS transl by Mrs R-D “What on that occasion (sobhana cittas) is contact (phasso)? The contact which on that occasion is touching, the being brought into contact, the state of having been brought into touch with - this is the contact that there then is.” Regardless of the terms or words used, what we read in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is a description of dhammas, of paramattha dhammas. Phasso is one example. Here we read a brief description of the sabhava, the particular nature of phasso which differentiates it from vedana (feeling) which follows or other mental factors. Furthermore, as Howard often stresses, at each moment, these characteristics or mental factors change as they arise and pass away in different combinations, experiencing different objects. “This is the contact that there then is”. If there were no contact arising, there would be no experiencing of any data at all. Understanding characteristics or particulars is the way to understanding dhammas as anatta. It doesn’t matter if we or commentaries use the term ‘sabhava’ or not. As Howard wrote, how sabhava is used by the Theravada commentaries is quite different from how the term is used in Mahayana. Better not to confuse them and appreciate these Theravada texts and the usage for what it is. For more on the meaning of ‘paramattha’ see: http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/paramattha.htm I appreciate your comments which help us all consider these points further, Michael. Trust me, there will be large numbers of other lurkers who will be silently supporting you from the lines;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Oh, I think it’s time you added a pic to our photo album..... Any other newbies (or oldies), pls consider this little act of dana too;-) ====== 27338 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > You are right, I did not provide references to the quotes in my last > message to you. Here they are: .... Thanks, Victor. It’s a great help when I see your blue links;-) I’m not sure that I have anything to add to the comments I wrote yesterday. ... > > "And what is clinging/sustenance? These four are clingings: > sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, and > doctrine of self clinging. This is called clinging. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html .... These include all kinds of clinging - all kinds of clinging with and without wrong view with regard to the khandhas as I discussed. ..... > > "And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a > monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & <...> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn45-008.html > > > "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from > sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & > remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, <...> > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html .... These are ‘red herring’ links;-) The desire and so on mentioned, refer to wholesome chanda and so on. In this thread, we’re discussing clinging as in lobha or tanha or other unwholesome clinging as you appreciate in the first link above;-) We’ve had a long thread before on this which I can link you back to if you like;-) .... > You found a reference to the teaching on the five aggregates. But > that does not address the problem of clinging to wholesome states, > if there is such a problem at all. .... Actually, dozens and dozens or hundreds of references to the aggregates. Do you accept that: a) wholesome states are included in the khandhas, b) All kinds of clinging are the cause of Dukkha, c)No special exceptions are given anywhere for particular objects of clinging .... > Now, is clinging to wholesome states sensuality clinging, view > clinging, precept & practice clinging, or doctrine of self clinging? .... It can be any of these. It can be plain clinging, clinging with a view of self that clings, clinging to a ritual, clinging with conceit and so on. .... > Is generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding > & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen and for the maintenance, non- > confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of > skillful qualities that have arisen clinging to wholesome states? .... As to be understood in the references you gave, No. In daily life, at this moment, when there is desire, wishing, endeavouring and so on, you tell me whether there is clinging/attachment or not. For most of us, I know what the answer will be. I notice you’re moving the goal posts again here, Victor. Before you were arguing that clinging to wholesome states isn’t a problem. Now you’re suggesting that these references are not referring to such clinging which of course we agree on;-) .... > Is cultivating, developing, pursuing renunciation-pleasure, > seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure clinging > to wholesome states? ... Again, look forward to your answers. Btw, I particularly liked another sutta you gave a link to some time back on the thread of Guarding the Senses. You wrote: V: >I see the desires that you mentioned as craving/tanha, particularly in terms of "May I be like this", "May I be otherwise", "I will be like this", "I will be otherwise", or other craving-verbalizations as enumerated by the Buddha in Anguttara Nikaya IV.199 Tanha Sutta Craving http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-199.html Metta, Sarah ====== 27339 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi Azita & Howard, --- gazita2002 wrote: > What do you mean by 'it only says.....'? is there anything else > to say? If the elements, the Khandhas etc are ultimate truth, what > else is there to be found? .... Like Howard, I thought you gave wonderful quotes, Azita and I'm amazed at how savvy you're becoming on the computer these days;-) ;-) Sometimes I have to check it's really you (no offence intended)! I'm with you 100% on this one. I understand the points Howard is making, but I put them in a similar category to the 'sabava' and 'paramattha' ones. Now it might well be that when people say 'there is no self' that there isn't any understanding at all of anatta as James said (and I agree with him;-);-)). This depends on the understanding of what is meant, rather than the words, I think. We can only get an idea of the meaning of words by asking for repeated clarifications. It can often, in my case, be used as a kind of shorthand. One word, anatta, is even shorter as KKT and I discussed;-) It's the understanding, not the word that counts as I see it. I appreciate 'there is no self' and the 'the khandhas are empty of self' may carry distinctions in some cases. Btw, Howard, you refer to 'a total revolution of the mind, a radical turning over at the depths'. This reminds me of comments I've read by B.Bodhi and in this case I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps you'd elaborate. How does this fit with the wearing away of the adze handle and the gradual development of the Path? .... Azita:> If there is no right understanding of this very present moment, > that this present moment is just those phenomena arising and falling > away so rapidly, then there will be no liberation. For > those 'seeds' to grow, right understanding must arise to be able to > be developed. Wisdom cannot develop unless it arises. Surely it is > right understanding - a reality - and not me - a nonreality, that > will see phenomena for what it really is -Anatta, Anicca and Dukkha. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, .... Keep up the good sutta quotes (the Ledi Sayadaw one was good too)and reminders;-) Metta, Sarah p.s You'll be glad to hear I'm walking almost normally again now;-) ====== 27340 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:niddesas Hi Nina, I meant to thank you for your added comments below. I'd be very interested to read it as I've mentioned before, hopefully it'll be translated into English in my life-time;-) Metta, Sarah ===== --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, > In my list of PTS Niddesa is not a Co, but part of the Khuddhaka Nikaya. > There is the Mahaaniddesa and the Cuulaniddesa. I only have the first > one , > but in Thai. The Co to this is the Saddhammapaajotika. Interesting what > you > quote from your old post. Niddesa means explanation. It explains indeed > questions we find in the Sutta Nipata. It has very good texts on old age > etc. I enjoy it very much. Added to each part in my Thai edition is the > commentary to it, thus from the Saddhammapaajotika In the Kaamasutta > niddesa > it gives the meanings of aayatana, citta is aayatana. > Nina. 27341 From: Htoo Naing Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:44am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 01 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, This age is the age of information. And information technology is growing fast. Everything seems to be obtained easily through a proper approach. The chance never comes twice. What that chance is being born as a human being. This human realm is the most capable realm in 31 planes of existence. No other realm excels human realm as man is always courageous and excels other Sattas in terms of courage and Sati. Man has the best Sati. Most Deva and Brahma drift away on their own achievement and they forget to search Dhamma. Anicca and Dukkha are much more readily perceivable in Manussa realm as man has better Sati than any other Deva or Brahma. In lower realms like Peta, Asura, animals and Niriya or hell, there is a little or little or even no chance to do good deed. Therefore, the best realm is Manussa or human realm, where Bodhisatta develops into Sammasambuddha. As we all are human beings, the most capable and with richest courage and Sati, now let's focus on Sati. With Sati, we look back. Alas! ....there have been many many lives we have lived infinitely. We have lived. That is not a problem. What is problem is how many lives we have to live in our Samsara. The problem will never come to an end without developing special wisdom that have penetrative and analytical and directly realizable in nature. These kinds of wisdom are Magga Nana and Phala Nana. As soon as we pass the first gate of Magga, Samsara will have been limited and shortened. When we attain Arahatta Magga, we are ready to get through the Samsara. May all beings get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27342 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, I meant to add a note - apologies for the late ambush post;-) --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: I read the post. Actually, I agree with you on this point…I > know, that's probably a shocker! ;-)))(And I'm not sure if Michael's > point isn't simply a semantic one). I do not believe that a person > can develop any single part of the Eightfold Path to fruition, to > nibbana, alone. All of them must be developed in tandem. Granted, > they may not all be developed to the same degree, but there cannot be > any deficiencies. Therefore, I agree with you, there is only one > path. ..... It was a bit of a shocker - albeit a pleasant shocker;-) Actually, you’ve been writing some good posts recently. No dispute here. ..... >But remember, I wasn't explaining my position; I was > explaining Buddhaghosa's. He is the one who wrote that each of those > values, developed ALONE, will lead to nibbana. I don't agree with > him. I think he has misinterpreted those suttas he quotes. Just > because those suttas are emphasizing a single value, that doesn't > mean that the others are excluded; they are still there, just > unstated. If you have any disputes, it is with Buddhaghosa, not with > me ;-). .... On the contrary, I don’t believe our disputes are with Buddhaghosa and haven’t read anything in the Visuddhimagga, inc. the extracts given, to suggest that any factor alone leads to nibbana. Just as you suggest in the suttas, looking at an emphasized ‘value’ in a line or section of the Visuddhimagga, doesn’t mean that satipatthana or the eightfold path factors are ever unnecessary. This is stressed so often in Buddhaghosa’s commentaries. I accept that you and other writers may read passages in a different light. I’ll leave the other argument as it was DK’s and not yours. Metta, Sarah ====== 27343 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:42am Subject: New file uploaded to dhammastudygroup Hello, This email message is a notification to let you know that a file has been uploaded to the Files area of the dhammastudygroup group. File : /letterdatabase.zip Uploaded by : nsdragonman Description : Ann S Winn's address solution You can access this file at the URL http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/letterdatabase.zip To learn more about file sharing for your group, please visit http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/groups/files Regards, nsdragonman 27344 From: Tom Westheimer Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:45am Subject: Early morning brain cramp I thought I was uploading a file to the voice recognition yahoo group but sent it here instead. Sorry for the strange message! 27345 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:47am Subject: Re: Act of consciousness Hi Jon, There is no need to reject the suttas. They are stories, and understanding that they are stories is enough. There is no hierarchy amongst stories. There are no "good" stories and "bad" stories, or "true" stories and "false" stories. They do not have a life of their own. There is no need to pass judgment on stories. A story , any story, becomes unravelled with awareness. Awareness does not need expounding. It does not need clarification. It does not need thinking about. Commentaries to awareness do one thing, and that is to kill it. I need not learn to speak English, Bantu, or Pali, in order to be silent. The stories of the Buddha that I have read tell me that he preferred silence to speech, inertness to activity. Silence requires no conceptual framework. Neither does knowing. Knowing arises when it does, and ceases when it does. And so it goes. Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > We have a number of members who reject the Abhidhamma and > commentaries, but I think you're taking the discussion to a new level > in suggesting the suttas be rejected too! > > Tell me, if you had a chance to hear the Buddha himself would you > choose not to do so because of the conceptual framework involved? I > presume not, otherwise you wouldn't be here. In which case you > perhaps you see an essential difference in this regard between > hearing the Buddha live and reading his words some (considerable) > time centuries later What is that crucial factor? And even so, > isn't reading the suttas the next best thing to hearing the man > himself live? > > You mention awareness. Do you consider that the awareness you are > talking about is the same awareness as the Buddha talked about? If > yes, how are you able to know this? > > I don't disagree at all with the notion that destruction by insight > occurs unplanned. But do you say that insight itself occurs > sufficiently without the development of the conditions for its > arising? > > Jon > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon and everyone, > > > > The suttas begin to become accessible to anyone who has acquired > > the "compounded to the nth degree" conceptual framework from which > > they sprang. Conceptual frameworks do not illuminate experience. > ... > > Awareness does not need developing. Concepts need de-developing to > > get remotely near to awareness. Deconstruction by insight occurs, > > unplanned, and allows some to return to what there was before there > > were "the texts". To suggest that the texts need to be acquired in > > order to discard them is pretty funny. > > > > I see no evidence in any scriptures that awareness is developed, > > but > > plenty that awareness is uncovered. Like Larry says, the path of > > the Buddha is cessation, not development. > > > > The empty mind is joyful, and not because it says so in a book. > 27346 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Hi Carl, --- Carl wrote: > I am another new member and have been lurking and reading the posts > for a week or so now. And also reading the books of Nina. Learning > and studying the Abhidhamma is kinda like playing tag with a steam- > roller :) Just the moment you think you have some understanding it > runs right over the top of you! .... Good to welcome you here and trust me, I’m sure we are all familiar with the steam-roller :) .... > I am so happy to be here among the authors writing on the Abhidhamma > and the very astute contributors of this group. I appreciate the > close adherance, scrutiny and devotion to Lord Buddha's Dhamma. > The Abhidhamma seems as a magnifying glass on the teachings of > Buddha and for me seems to bring the teachings into clarity. .... I know Nina and others will be most encouraged by your comments. Your description of the Abhidhamma exactly illustrates how I see it too. .... <..> > It is an honor to be here. Carl ..... it’s an honor to have you join us, Carl. I’ve left your comments as RobertK has already replied and I look forward to reading your continued discussion with him and anyone else. Thankyou again for your introductory comments and qus. If you’d like to add any details about where you live and how you found your way here or became interested in the Abhidhamma, that would be interesting too. I look forward to further discussions. Metta, Sarah ===== 27347 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Hi Howard, I appreciate your feedback very much. I have been thinking of you and your wife with your recent loss, and want you to know that I have been encouraged by the depth and strength of your understanding. Wishing you and yours well Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Herman - > > This is a brief one of those "sadhu posts"! ;-) Without giving specifics, and though there are a few monor bones I could pick, I just want to tell you that there is very much that I like a lot here! > > With metta, > Howard > > In a message dated 11/24/2003 7:33:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > > > > Hi Jon and everyone, > > > > The suttas begin to become accessible to anyone who has acquired > > the "compounded to the nth degree" conceptual framework from which > > they sprang. Conceptual frameworks do not illuminate experience. 27348 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member Hi Blue, Welcome to DSG too;-) --- blue lan wrote: > Hi, Carol: .... (Note: his name is CARL!) ..... > Somehow, after read your idea, i think we need to go back to see what an > example the Buddha had said to us--- lotus. The Buddha makes such a > good example---between people who could understand the five aggregates > and cittas (or they are connected each other). ..... Cittas being the same as vinnana khandha or aggregate of consciousness which consists of all cittas. .... > I am a Taiwanness, i read some of sutras in which also be written by > Chinese chatacters. By the way, i an also a new member here, and reading > the posts for a couple of weeks. This letter is my first to post my > opinion. .... Thank you very much for introducing yourself, Blue. Jon and I are fairly close to you as we live in Hong Kong. There have been other Taiwanese members, but none active at the moment that I can think of. ( I think there was another Michael in Taiwan before). It’s good to read your opinions and I’m very happy to hear you’re reading the posts. Let us know if there’s anything you’d like clarified. I saw a copy of the Abhidammattha Sangaha written in Chinese characters and printed in Malaysia if you'd like the address. Obviously, if you've been reading messages here for the last two weeks you also read English pretty easily;-) Look forward to further discussion with you. Metta, Sarah p.s Btw, we ask all members on DSG to kindly trim previous posts in the thread =================================================================== 27349 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Early morning brain cramp Hi Tom, --- Tom Westheimer wrote: > I thought I was uploading a file to the voice recognition yahoo group > but sent it here instead. Sorry for the strange message! ..... As I’m sure you’ll have noticed over the years, we get all kinds of introductory messages and sooner or later even die-hard lurkers like yourself make an unusual appearance;-) ;-) I was sorry not to see you and Beverly in India with K.Sujin and others and hope we meet in Thailand or somewhere. How about a proper intro now you’ve broken the ice? That would be interesting;-) I know Nina and everyone else would be glad to hear from you and any Dhamma musings. Metta, Sarah p.s Thanks for behind-the-scenes comments and suggestions about file storage ============================================================== 27350 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Micheal I have been reading the exchanges, however one thing creep into my mind that you keep insisting that " commentators went too far and have assumed a position of essentialism." Would you like to define how does one assume an essentialism? What are your parameters of such an essentialism? Or could I have the privilege to define as something with an intrinsic value. Or do your prefer "an individuality", a kind of form". Anyway whatever definiton, it is always good that you provide such a definition for easy discussion. Buddha in the suttas always refer "self" as a construct of the five aggregates" Abdhidhamma as you also know also refer "self" as a construct of cittas, cetasikas and rupa. Abdhidhamma never invent a new way of saying that the construct of "self" is different from what Buddha said in the sutta. It is only different in the way it categorise them and in rupa explain a bit more in detail. Buddha says impermanence and anatta. Abdhidhamma never invent a new way of saying that this impermanence and anatta is different from sutta. However two of the most controversial prinicple of Abdhidhamma where essentialism could be construe are the accumulations of kamma and latent tendecies. To me a correct perspective must be maintain in order to understand this two concepts. Latent tendecies - To me I prefer the word "habitual effect" rather than this word latent tendecies where it rings a kind of essentialism principle. All cittas have this habitual effect, logically the cause of such an effect is ignorance. But does this habitual effect "permanent and a self", or a thing that presume a self or an underlying consciouness. If it is a thing, a self, then the whole Abdhidhamma theory will thoroughly fail bc this is an impt pillar of Abdhidhamma. If it is a thing, a self, then the so called conditions and conditions relations in Abdhidhamma is not valid. Habitual effect can be change and it is anatta. If it does not change, then why bother to learn Buddhism in the first place. If it has a self, how come we cannot tell our habitual effect to stop all these nonsense. Accumalation of Kamma - I dont have a better a word. Accumulations also ring a bell of essentialism - it is always misconstrue as "a storehouse of consciousness", or an underlying consciouness. If there is a another underlying consciouness or a storehouse of consciouness, does these mean that at each moment of our consciouness there is a subset of consciouness. Isn't this very confusing. If each consciouness has a self in it, so that means there is another entity at work. This is like the argument of a soul. Accumalation in Abdhidhamma is also impermanent and anatta. In fact the whole thing how Kamma work is really in the realm of Buddha. In Abdhidhamma the accumulative effect is a just function of a cetasikas. Just like vedana function for a citta to feel. Or would you prefer to give us your parameters on why Abdhidhamma is essentailism. With warmest regards Ken O 27351 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 6:58am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I meant to add a note - apologies Hi Sarah, Sarah: I meant to add a note - apologies for the late ambush post;-) James: That's okay. Honestly, I was hoping for a breather and that you had dropped the issue after my last post, but I should have known better! ;-). Sarah, you are going to exhaust me! ;-))) Sarah: It was a bit of a shocker - albeit a pleasant shocker;-) Actually, you've been writing some good posts recently. No dispute here. James: Yea, the best posts are those that agree! ;-) Seriously, my posts have been better because I have been using references out the yin yang…even Pali! Yuck. It is too much; I am not pleased with myself. I need to lurk more and write less; meditate/practice mindfulness more and search references less. Don't want to lose good accumulations through poor choices.;-) Sarah: On the contrary, I don't believe our disputes are with Buddhaghosa and haven't read anything in the Visuddhimagga, inc. the extracts given, to suggest that any factor alone leads to nibbana. James: Buddhaghosa wrote, "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight alone…" Notice the word `alone'. You are stating the exact opposite of what Buddhaghosa wrote. Buddhaghosa later writes in the introduction, "This is how the Blessed One shows the path ofpurification under the headings of virtue, concentration and understanding there." It seems to me that Buddhaghosa is describing different paths, based on the suttas, here. Of course that may not have been his intention, but that is how he stated it. I was simply defending DK's interpretation because I think it is accurate. Buddhaghosa begins the Visudhimagga by describing different paths to purification but finally decides on the broader "virtue, concentration, and understanding" path. Sarah: Just as you suggest in the suttas, looking at an emphasized `value' in a line or section of the Visuddhimagga, doesn't mean that satipatthana or the eightfold path factors are ever unnecessary. This is stressed so often in Buddhaghosa's commentaries. James: I was just going on what Buddhaghosa wrote. He wrote `alone'; alone means alone to me. I don't believe that I am taking anything out of context. He may have stressed something different in his commentaries- I will take your word for it since you are well read in them- but that isn't what he wrote in this introduction. We were only discussing the introduction to the Visudhimagga, not his entire body of work. Sarah: I accept that you and other writers may read passages in a different light. James: That is good because I don't think we are ever going to agree on this. If you can explain to me how Buddhaghosa didn't really mean `alone' when he wrote `alone', by only using what is in context (not additional sources), maybe we can agree. Metta, James 27352 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Ken (and Jon) - In a message dated 11/25/03 1:28:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > >>Howard: > >> Another closely related question is: "By what means is one > >>aware that there is an entire group of rupas arising (somewhere), > >>when only one rupa is experienced?" > > k: Such an experience can only be able to experience and explain by > the wisdom of Buddha. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe I've heard that one before, but then it sounded more like "God's ways are mysterious, His wonders to perform." ------------------------------------------------- I think without him, not many Arahat will know> > about also, only certain Great Arahats. In my opinion, this is a > natural law for rupas to co-arise together. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And this is known ... how? ---------------------------------------------- Only one is choose, they> > rest will fall away and cease to exist (also a natural law). This is > also similar to the universal cetasikas where seven arise together > with each citta but only one is arise and depend on condition > relations, which cetasikas will be cognize. > > ========================== All this alleged fact is known by what means? Whatever happened to ehipassiko? Also, where in the suttas, the discourses taught for 45 years and guiding many to full enlightenment, did this appear even in raw form? Jon, you asked me why I need to know *where* hardness is when it is not experienced (there being no actual rock in which to inhere) and yet supposedly has arisen along with an experienced sight (say) and other unexperienced rupas. My answer was that we need to know this to gain some reason to give credence to the claim of such a state of affairs, the arising of a rupa group that is unobservable except supposedly only by a Buddha (according to you, Ken) and that must be taken on faith. Even if this rupa-group claim were correct, the Buddha said to see for ourselves, and *not* accept due to authority, and, perhaps more importantly, why is *this* leaf in the forest among the few in the Buddha's hand?? Does one also need to know that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make progress towards freedom? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27353 From: ashkenn2k Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:07am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James > James: Buddhaghosa wrote, "In some instances this path of > purification is taught by insight alone…" Notice the word `alone'. k: I think the line of controvery here is how do we read the author intention. Why did he beat about the bushes with so different paths (if there are many paths) and then come back to one path. Was it a different path in the first instance when he say that statement or was it refering to certain disciples who need just the method of insight alone or others who need more? When Buddha teach about dependent origination, sense investigation, etc was he trying to overwhelm us using different paths? Or was he just providing different methods using the same path? To me, in Buddhism there is only one path, that is the 8 Noble Foot Path? Be it you are practising Thervada, Mahayana or Tibetan, all methods still come back this path. There is no other path. That is how I interpret Buddhaghosa when he illustrates the diverse methods but in the end only one path. kind regards Ken O 27354 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:36am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Sarah and all, My question was Could you provide some references regarding clinging to wholesome states? Did the Buddha ever address the problem of clinging to wholesome states, if there is such problem at all? You provided the reference Aggregates Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html and said that wholesome states are included in sankhara khandha translated here as mental fabrications. I would not disagree with you on that. But on the other hand, that is not what I was inquiring. I also asked the following three questions Now, is clinging to wholesome states sensuality clinging, view clinging, precept & practice clinging, or doctrine of self clinging? Is generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen and for the maintenance, non- confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen clinging to wholesome states? Is cultivating, developing, pursuing renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure clinging to wholesome states? It seems to me that clinging to wholesome states is a specific problem, and we agree that 1. Generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen and for the maintenance, non- confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen and 2. Cultivating, developing, pursuing renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure do not refer to clinging to wholesome states. However, I am not sure what you mean by clinging to wholesome states. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27355 From: htootintnaing Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:02am Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 03 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Among the four sets of Cetasikas, permanent ministers have been described. In this post, the flexible ministers will be delineated. They are given ' the sense ' of ' flexible ' because when they work with Akusala Cetasikas,they will become Akusala Cetasikas and when they work with Kusala Cetasikas they will become Kusala Cetasikas. They are known as '' Pakinnaka Cetasikas ''. There are six of them who work as flexible ministers. 1. Vitakka It delibrately puts the Citta and other cetasikas on a particular Arammana or object. It makes sure that Citta is taking that Arammana or object. It works as a starter and all other Cetasikas and Citta start working even though Citta is a leader.He accepts the advice of Vitakka and starts working on that particular sense ( object or Arammana ) and so on. It is also known as initial application. 2. Vicara It makes reviews on the Arammana and goes all the way round on that particular Arammana. It functions as a reviewer. It advises the leader ( Citta ) to review and review on the senses. It is also known as sustained application.It persists on a particular Arammana or object. When Vitakka puts the Citta on a particular object, Vicara helps sustained and stays persistently on that Arammana or object. 3. Piti It makes itself, Citta and all other Cetasikas cheerful. Citta likes the Arammana as advised by Piti. In its presence, Citta and all Cetasikas do their business cheerfully and happily. Piti energizes all mental faculties exist. In the presence of Piti, all mental jobs become tirelessness and unexhausted. Piti makes joyous, happy, merry, rejoiced and it increases likeness to the particular object or Arammana. 4. Viriya It makes exertion, effort, movement of citta. It functions as an effort-maker and sustains the activity. Viriya advises the king Citta to produce effort steadfastly. Viriya will never withdraw what it is doing at every moment. In the presence of Viriya, Citta becomes a steadfast effort producer. It gives the strength to Citta in performing actions not to stop or not to withdraw from performing ongoing actions. 5. Chandha It advises Citta its wish and Citta implements the wish. It sets a target or a goal. Citta and other Cetasikas go hand in hand toward that goal. Chandha is just a wish without any attachment unlike Lobha. Chandha is mere desire without magnetic attraction to a particular object. No one can search Nibbana with Lobha. But Nibbana can be attained with Chandha. Chandha is just wishing, just desire, just willingness without any specific attachment. 6. Adhimokkha It determines the exact job. It advises a decision for Citta. Citta, the king (leader ) then decides according to Adhimokkha's advice. Adhimokkha makes a clear cut decision. It gives strong determination. It marks the exact job for Citta to do. In the presence of Adhimokkha Citta can work undubiously. Citta can work with Adhimokkha under suspicion free environment. Adhimokkha is a decision maker. He is the chief adviser minister of the king Citta, who leads all other mental bodies Cetasikas. These six Cetasikas work as flexible ministers to the king Citta. When the king does good things, they functions as good advisers. When the king does bad things, they flexibly agree and advise accordingly. Trying to see or realize these Dhamma will have a good chance to probe internal ( mental ) phenomena. May you have an interest in the job of Cetasikas and realize them With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27356 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Sukin, Sukin: Now you have aroused my curiosity ;-). Can you please direct me to any such material on the internet? I lack patience in reading, so please if possible choose one with the most simple writing style and minimum amount of reading. Michael: Sorry, cannot recomend anything from the web on Nagarjuna. I would recommend as a starter to read 'The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way' - Translation and Commentary by Jay L. Garfield. The Central Philosoohy of Buddhism by TRV Murti, Dependent Arising and Emptiness by Elizabeth Napper, The Essence of the Heart Sutta by the Dalai Lama and A History of Buddhist Philosphy by Kalupahana, are also good reading. It's a long list and a very complex subject but wothwhile the effort. Metta Michael 27357 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dhamma-vinaya Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 11/25/03 5:12:48 AM Eastern Standard Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Btw, Howard, you refer to 'a total revolution of the mind, a radical > turning over at the depths'. This reminds me of comments I've read by > B.Bodhi and in this case I'm not sure I agree. Perhaps you'd elaborate. > How does this fit with the wearing away of the adze handle and the gradual > development of the Path? > ========================= Not much to say, Sarah. The gradual development, the cultivation, comes first. And then, after stages of awakening, yet more development, and then yet further awakening, etc, but each touching of the unborn is earth-shattering - just look at the expressions of joy at enlightenment in the Songs of the Monks and Nuns or in the Zen records. And even when the joy is missing due to being ill prepared with respect to cultivation of calm, the experience is a radical one. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27358 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Act of consciousness Thank you, Herman. Much appreciated. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/25/03 8:14:20 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Howard, > > I appreciate your feedback very much. > > I have been thinking of you and your wife with your recent loss, and > want you to know that I have been encouraged by the depth and > strength of your understanding. > > Wishing you and yours well > > > Herman > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27359 From: ashkenn2k Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:21am Subject: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi Howard All this alleged fact is known by what means? Whatever happened to > ehipassiko? Also, where in the suttas, the discourses taught for 45 years and > guiding many to full enlightenment, did this appear even in raw form? > Jon, you asked me why I need to know *where* hardness is when it is > not experienced (there being no actual rock in which to inhere) and yet supposedly has arisen along with an experienced sight (say) and other unexperienced rupas. My answer was that we need to know this to gain some reason to give > credence to the claim of such a state of affairs, the arising of a rupa group that is unobservable except supposedly only by a Buddha (according to you, Ken) and that must be taken on faith. Even if this rupa-group claim were correct, the > Buddha said to see for ourselves, and *not* accept due to authority, and, perhaps more importantly, why is *this* leaf in the forest among the few in the Buddha's hand?? Does one also need to know that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make progress towards freedom? > k: You are aboslutely right that we do not need to know water is H2O. In fact, what Buddha taught in Sutta is adequate for learning, for exploring, for liberation. And what is taught in Sutta is verifiable, have put us more in faith, here and now. The most difficult position of Abdhidhamma has a whole, is its difficulty in providing evidence from the sutta. Even those evidence from the sutta is always infer and not direct proof bc the recorded suttas do not provide such material proof. k: To me, it is extremely difficult to have faith and confidence in Abhidhamma. There are these nagging issues like how do we know that these rupas arise together etc. How to verify Abdhidhamma is to investigate the validity of the guiding principle (forget about such details about rupas rising together) with what Buddha taught in the suttas. Presently I only can provide two examples k: Abdhidhamma always talk about singularity. Does sutta talk about it. In fact it is always in it, for eg. one can only experience one feeling at a time. Bc of this singularity, cittas have to been very fast arise and fall (just like frames of a film) or not we will have problem seeing etc. Just like the eye retina has many neurotransmitters that capture the picture and send to the brain for us to see. If it is slow, we will have a problem seeing. k: Abdhidhamma talks in great length on conditions and the relationship between these conditions. One eg in sutta is dependent origintion. Why great length, bc there is a need to see things as conditions so as to prevent seeing one as a "self" construct. In fact this method will eventually eradicate the way we think that a self is involved esp when we taught we always have the right to choose or in short free will. k: In the end, I have to admit that there is no way to verify those nagging issues in the suttas. However, I like to state that Abdhidhamma is an extension of sutta and not the other round bc the path of liberation can only be found described in the sutta. Whether the sutta is for certain level of disciple, it is not the issue, to me it is for everyone and each one of us will interpret to our own level. However, with the help of Abdhidhamma, the meaning of sutta has become clearer, more meaningful. I believe it will bring benefit not loss, bring clarity to suttas and to faith and then to liberation. And the only way you can verify it, is that you put down all views and try it. kind regards Ken O 27360 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Kenneth, Kenneth: I have been reading the exchanges, however one thing creep into my mind that you keep insisting that " commentators went too far and have assumed a position of essentialism." Would you like to define how does one assume an essentialism? What are your parameters of such an essentialism? Michael: I suggest you look back at the post containing the reproduction of part of the chapter on Buddhaghosa by D. Kalupahana. The arguments are there. Metta Michael 27361 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Cooran meeting Dear Ken, Always a pleasure to read your posts. I am not yet quite happy about the sharks. I really appreciate it that Klaas founded the group, and please convey my anumodana and warmest regards to him. Could he not partake of dsg? Nina. op 25-11-2003 01:53 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Another thing I am looking forward to is meeting my old > friend Klaas de Jong. 27362 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] New Member, to Carl Dear Carl, welcome to the group. I always appreciate it very much when people have confidence in the Abhidhamma. See below. op 25-11-2003 01:51 schreef Carl op c7carl@y...: Learning > and studying the Abhidhamma is kinda like playing tag with a steam- > roller :) Just the moment you think you have some understanding it > runs right over the top of you! N: we all need patience. It is a process of learning little by little, and this is for all of us. C: The Abhidhamma seems as a magnifying glass on the teachings of > Buddha and for me seems to bring the teachings into clarity. N: I like this simile you use. And it helps us to be down to earth. C: Cittas are a reality. The body is not a reality. N: Rob K already explained about the five khandhas. The body consists of rupas which are real. But it takes time to absorb this. We are used to think of "our body" all the time. The question is, how do we exprience it at this moment? We experience heat, hardness, pressure. Different elements. The Abhidhamma is not theory, it has to be verified right now. This is the way to learn that what we take for person are only fleeting elements. Looking forward to your input, Nina. 27363 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi Larry, op 25-11-2003 05:25 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: Would it be correct to say rupas that are produced by temperature are not objects of consciousness because all the rupas that are objects of consciousness are produced by kamma? N: This is not correct. Howard: "Does any dhamma arise from a single condition? Why must arising > from temperature and arising from kamma be mutually exclusive?" L: Most rupa is produced by a combination of 4 > causes: kamma, consciousness, temperature, and nutriment. N: Some groups of rupa of the body are produced by kamma, some by consciousness, some by temperature, and some by nutriment. The rupas that are not of the body are produced only by temperature. When a group is produced by kamma, it is not produced at the same time by temperature, etc. Different kinds of rupa, no matter produced by which factor can be experienced and known. But we do not have to pinpoint by which factor they are produced. Because of fright, heat of the body may appear: conditioned by citta. Nutrition conditions the body in different ways and its effect can be heat that appears. When the temperature outside is cold, it can cause stiffness of the body. There are many intricate conditions. L:I just looked > in CMA and I see that sound is not produced by kamma (intentional sound, > e.g. speech, is produced by kamma). N: No, not by kamma. Sound can be produced by temperature and by citta, think of the sound of wind, and of speech sound. L:Maybe there is a difference between > "produced by kamma" and "result of kamma". N: There is a difference between originating from and caused by, see CMA at the end, but this is very intricate. Expositor II, p. 443: originating in and caused by. Here I want to be careful. Nina. 27364 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:14am Subject: Vis.Tiika37 Relevant text Vis. 37: 37. 1. Herein, the eye's characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements that is ready for the impact of visible data; or its characteristic is sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see. Its function is to pick up [an object] among visible data. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see. ------------------ 37. tattha ruupaabhighaataarahatappasaadalakkha.na.m da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa cakkhu, ruupesu aavi~nchanarasa.m, cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m, da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaana.m. Tiika: Note: 37. tattha ruupaabhighaataarahatappasaadalakkha.na.m da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammasamu.t.thaanabhuutappasaadalakkha.na.m vaa cakkhu, N: impact of visible object, ruupaabhighaata, readiness or fitness, arahataa, the eyesense (sensitivity), pasaada. Then at end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m. Sentient organ that is ready for the impact of visible data is the characteristic (of the eye). Pasada, literally brightness or clearness, (it is a revealer) is a derived rupa with its own specific nature or characteristic, (sa-bhava, own nature) also called pasaada-ruupa. It is eyesense, earsense, etc. Now the second part, and for this I needed to consult the Atthasalini, 307 (Expositor II, p. 404). Vis reads: I analyse: sourcing from desire to see, da.t.thukaamataa nidaana, originated by kamma, kammasamu.t.thaana, sentient organ depending on the primaries, bhuutappasaada. At the end: characteristic, lakkha.na.m. In a compound stems are used and except at the end, no cases are used. Here bhuuta stands for the genetive case, but in the compound the ending is eliminated. This will be clear from what follows. In the Tiika it is said: catunna.m bhuutaana.m pasaado : the sensitivity of the four primaries. The Atthasalini: Thus we read the genetive: of the four primaries, but the meaning is: depending on. Tiika text 37: 37. Idaani yathaa-uddi.t.thaani upaadaaruupaani lakkha.naadito niddisitu.m ³tattha ruupaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaadalakkha.nan²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. Now he said first in order to explain the characteristics etc. of the derived material phenomena that were pointed out: ² Herein, sentient organ that is ready for the impact of visible data is the characteristic and so on². Tattha tatthaati tesu upaadaaruupesu. As to the expression herein, this means, with regard to the derived materiality. Ruupe, ruupassa vaa abhighaato ruupaabhighaato, ta.m arahatiiti ruupaabhighaataaraho, On account of visible object, or the impact of visible object is visible object-impact, it is fit for this, thus, ready for impact of visible object, ruupaabhighaato hotu vaa maa vaa eva.msabhaavo catunna.m bhuutaana.m pasaado ruupaabhighaataarahabhuutappasaado, the sentient organ that is dependent on the four primaries is of such nature, no matter whether it is impinged on by visible object or not, thus, (there is the compound) ³the sentient organ dependent on the primaries that is ready for the impact of visible data; eva.mlakkha.na.m cakkhuuti attho. thus is its characteristic, meaning the eye. ........(section omitted) Tenaaha ³ya.m cakkhu anidassana.m sappa.tigha.m ruupamhi sanidassanamhi sappa.tighamhi pa.tiha~n~ni vaa²ti, Therefore he said: ³...which eye that is invisible and reacting has impinged on visible object that is visible and reacting...² ³yamhi cakkhumhi anidassanamhi sappa.tighamhi ruupa.m sanidassana.m sappa.tigha.m pa.tiha~n~ni vaa pa.tiha~n~nati vaa²ti ca aadi. ³on which eye(sense) that is invisible and reacting visible object that is visible and reacting has impinged or impinges...² and so on (Dhsg §598, 599). ......(section omitted) Da.t.thukaamataati hi da.t.thumicchaa, ruupata.nhaati attho. As to the expression desire to see, this refers to seeing in the wrong way, the meaning is craving for visible object. (.....) Ruupesu puggalassa, vi~n~naa.nassa vaa aavi~nchanarasa.m. The picking up (an object) among visible data, by a person or consciousness, is its function *. Aadhaarabhaavapaccupa.t.thaana.m nissayapaccayabhaavato. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness, by its nature of dependence-condition **. Da.t.thukaamataanidaanakammajabhuutapada.t.thaana.m Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see, yesa.m bhuutaana.m pasaado, tevassa aasannakaara.nanti katvaa. and the sense-organ is depending on (of) these primaries, which have been made the near cause of it. ***** English: Now he said first in order to explain the characteristics etc. of the derived material phenomena that were pointed out: ² Herein, sentient organ that is ready for the impact of visible data is the characteristic and so on². As to the expression herein, this means, with regard to the derived materiality. On account of visible object, or the impact of visible object is visible object-impact, it is fit for this, thus, ready for impact of visible object, the sentient organ that is dependent on the four primaries is of such nature, no matter whether it is impinged on by visible object or not, thus, (there is the compound) ³the sentient organ dependent on the primaries that is ready for the impact of visible data²; thus is its characteristic, meaning the eye. ........(section omitted) ...Therefore he said: which eye that is invisible and reacting has impinged on visible object that is visible and reacting... on which eye(sense) that is invisible and reacting visible object that is visible and reacting has impinged or impinges...² and so on (Dhsg §598, 599). ......(section omitted) As to the expression desire to see, this refers to seeing in the wrong way, the meaning is craving for visible object. (.....) The picking up (an object) among visible data, by a person or consciousness, is its function *. It is manifested as the footing of eye-consciousness, by its nature of dependence-condition **. Its proximate cause is primary elements born of kamma sourcing from desire to see, and the sense-organ is depending on (of) these primaries, which have been made the near cause of it. __________ * The eyesense does not strictly speaking select or pick up an object. Because of conditions, citta does, or, in conventional sense a person does. ** The sense-bases and the heart-base are dependance-condition for the relevant cittas that arise at those bases. ******* Nina. 27365 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hello Sarah, Sarah: Regardless of the terms or words used, what we read in the Abhidhamma Pitaka is a description of dhammas, of paramattha dhammas. Phasso is one example. Michael: Explain to me please, all cittas, cetasikas and rupas described in the Abhidhamma of the Pali Tipitaka are exaustive? I mean do they explain all that should be comprehended as paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). Could there be anything missing? Could there be too much, i.e things that are not paramatha but have been included? Second, are there other Abhidhammas from other Buddhist schools? In case yes, do they have exactly the same paramattha dhamma? In case no, do you know if there is a reason for only existing the Pali Abhidhamma? Sarah: As Howard wrote, how sabhava is used by the Theravada commentaries is quite different from how the term is used in Mahayana. Better not to confuse them and appreciate these Theravada texts and the usage for what it is. Michael: Oh! Now I see, Nagarjuna did not know what he was talking about. He probably knew the meaning of sabhava/svabhava but did not know the particular way the commentators of the Canon used it. I guess Bhikkhu Bodhi should also be told about this because he affirms: ‘Dhammas alone possess ultimate reality: determinate existence “from their own side” (sarupato).’ Which is exactly what Nagarjuna critizes. Metta Michael PS: I will see what I can do about the pictures. Is there only one photo album? Can you pls. provide the link:) 27366 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Ken - While I don't agree with *all* that you say in the following, I do agree with very much of it, and more importantly, I very much admire your candor, your non-doctrinnaire attitude, and the moderate approach you adopt. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/25/03 1:36:36 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > Hi Howard > > All this alleged fact is known by what means? Whatever happened to > >ehipassiko? Also, where in the suttas, the discourses taught for > 45 years and >guiding many to full enlightenment, did this appear > even in raw form? > Jon, you asked me why I need to know > *where* hardness is when it is >not experienced (there being no > actual rock in which to inhere) and yet supposedly has arisen along > with an experienced sight (say) and other unexperienced rupas. My > answer was that we need to know this to gain some reason to give > > credence to the claim of such a state of affairs, the arising of a > rupa group that is unobservable except supposedly only by a Buddha > (according to you, Ken) and that must be taken on faith. Even if > this rupa-group claim were correct, the > >Buddha said to see for ourselves, and *not* accept due to > authority, and, perhaps more importantly, why is *this* leaf in the > forest among the few in the Buddha's hand?? Does one also need to > know that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make > progress towards freedom? > > > > k: You are aboslutely right that we do not need to know water is > H2O. In fact, what Buddha taught in Sutta is adequate for learning, > for exploring, for liberation. And what is taught in Sutta is > verifiable, have put us more in faith, here and now. The most > difficult position of Abdhidhamma has a whole, is its difficulty in > providing evidence from the sutta. Even those evidence from the > sutta is always infer and not direct proof bc the recorded suttas do > not provide such material proof. > > k: To me, it is extremely difficult to have faith and confidence in > Abhidhamma. There are these nagging issues like how do we know that > these rupas arise together etc. How to verify Abdhidhamma is to > investigate the validity of the guiding principle (forget about such > details about rupas rising together) with what Buddha taught in the > suttas. Presently I only can provide two examples > > k: Abdhidhamma always talk about singularity. Does sutta talk > about it. In fact it is always in it, for eg. one can only > experience one feeling at a time. Bc of this singularity, cittas > have to been very fast arise and fall (just like frames of a film) > or not we will have problem seeing etc. Just like the eye retina > has many neurotransmitters that capture the picture and send to the > brain for us to see. If it is slow, we will have a problem seeing. > > k: Abdhidhamma talks in great length on conditions and the > relationship between these conditions. One eg in sutta is dependent > origintion. Why great length, bc there is a need to see things as > conditions so as to prevent seeing one as a "self" construct. In > fact this method will eventually eradicate the way we think that a > self is involved esp when we taught we always have the right to > choose or in short free will. > > k: In the end, I have to admit that there is no way to verify those > nagging issues in the suttas. However, I like to state that > Abdhidhamma is an extension of sutta and not the other round bc the > path of liberation can only be found described in the sutta. > Whether the sutta is for certain level of disciple, it is not the > issue, to me it is for everyone and each one of us will interpret to > our own level. However, with the help of Abdhidhamma, the meaning > of sutta has become clearer, more meaningful. I believe it will > bring benefit not loss, bring clarity to suttas and to faith and > then to liberation. And the only way you can verify it, is that you > put down all views and try it. > > > kind regards > Ken O > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27367 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:32am Subject: PHOTOS PHOTOS PHOTOS All members,(new and not so new), DhammaStudyGroup has four photo albums. The albums are: 1. Members - there are currenty 63 photos of members in this album. 2. Significant Others and Family - there are currently 11 photos in this album. 3. DSG Meetings - there are currently 14 Group photos in this album. 4. Myanmar (members trip October 2003) - there are currently 41 photos in this album. The albums can be accessed by clicking on one of them at this link: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst Then click on any photo to enlarge it for easier viewing. All new and old members, whether lurking or actively posting, are encouraged to place a photo, or several photos, in the Members or Significant Others Albums. It does make a pleasant difference to be able to visualise the person to whom you are writing. As you will see, we come in all shapes and sizes, are of many nationalities, and of varied ages and genders. I hope many who are not yet in the Album, but who have thought they "may put a photo in one day", will seriously consider doing it now. We'd be delighted to have you join us. If you are unsure of how to do it, please email Kom, Sukin, or myself off-list and we will be glad to be of assistance. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 27368 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello Sarah, Sarah: It doesn’t mean development of bhavanga-citta. Bhavanga citta is never developed and continues to experience the same object throughout life as you explained. Michael: OK. But lets look again at what the sutta says. In parts: ‘Luminous is the mind,’ So, based on the commentaries this refers to bhavanga citta in a state of deep sleep, and bhavanga is pure and luminous. (bhavanga is experiencing the rebirth object which was defiled and therefore how can bhavanga be pure if it is experiencing a defiled object?) ‘and it is freed from incoming defilements’ So, the sutta refers to ‘it’ which has to be the same mind as before, or bhavanga citta. And ‘freed from incoming defilements’ means development – bhavana. Therefore the question is: how is the development of bhavanga citta. Further, how can bhavanga citta be affected by incoming defilements? Bhavanga is detached from the sense doors so how is this possible? Sarah: The commentaries were started during the Buddha’s time and added to as appropriate. The Abhidhamma for the most part was recited at the First Council. Michael: Yeah, I know that MahaKaccana is considered the father of exegesis in Theravada but Bhikkhu Bodhi was referring to commentaries on the Abhidhamma, not commentaries in general. It is the first time I hear that Abhidhamma was recited in the first council. Were does that come from? Metta Michael 27369 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/25/03 3:03:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > Oh! Now I see, Nagarjuna did not know what he was talking about. He probably > > knew the meaning of sabhava/svabhava but did not know the particular way the > > commentators of the Canon used it. I guess Bhikkhu Bodhi should also be told > > about this because he affirms: ‘Dhammas alone possess ultimate reality: > determinate existence “from their own sideâ€? (sarupato).’ Which is exactly > what Nagarjuna critizes. ========================= I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Nagarjuna addressed Theravada. I believe that his works were largely in response to the Sarvastavadin and Sautrantika schools. If I recall correctly, you've read a bit by David Kalupahana. Didn't he also say that Nagarjuna addressed positions of those schools rather than Theravada? Also, I think that although Theravada is a single school, there are a variety of streams within it, some of which, in my opinion wander off course on some issues, but others of which do not. Kalupahana, BTW, considers himself to be a Theravadin. For the record, the statement you attribute to Bhikkhu Bodhi is one that I take considerable exception to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27370 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hello Howard, Howard: I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Nagarjuna addressed Theravada. I believe that his works were largely in response to the Sarvastavadin and Sautrantika schools. Michael: Nagarjuna addressed the Abhidhamma. I don’t know if the schools you mentioned had Abhidhamma. Did they? His writings were a critique of the concepts of paramatha dhamma and sabhava/svabhava that had crept up in the writings about the Abhidhamma. Howard: For the record, the statement you attribute to Bhikkhu Bodhi is one that I take considerable exception to. Michael: Sorry but I don’t know what you mean, what exactly do you object? Metta Michael 27371 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Howard: "Hi, Larry - In the following you ask "I am wondering if any rupa that doesn't have kamma as one of its producers can be an object of consciouness?" In all seriousness I have to ask in return "If not, how would anyone know?" " Hi Howard, Same way we know most things. Reason. Larry 27372 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 4:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sukin, Here is a link for several Nagarjunian views. Read the first two sections at least: http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol3/madhyamaka.html Larry btw this philosophy is highly controversial amongst its proponents. No two can agree on what it says. L. 27373 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 5:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi Michael, Here is Bhikku ~Nanamoli's note on "sabhava". The main thing is that it is not permanent. Larry Vism. VIII, Note 68. 'In such passages as "Dhammas that are concepts" (Dhs., p. 1;1308) even a non-entity (abhava) is thus called a "dhamma" since it is borne (dhariyati) and affirmed (avadhariyati) by knowledge. That kind of dhamma is excluded by his saying "Dhammas [means] individual essences". The act of becoming (bhavana), which constitutes existingness (vijjamanata) in the ultimate sense, is essence (bhava); it is with essence (saha bhavena), thus it is an individual essence (sabhava); the meaning is that it is possible (labbhamanarupa) in the true sense, in the ultimate sense. For these are called "dhammas (bearers)" because they bear (dharana) their own individual essences (sabhava), and they are called "individual essences" in the sense already explained' (Pm. 282; cf Ch. VII, n. 1). In the Pitakas the word "sabhava" seems to appear only once (Ps.ii,178). It next appears in the Netti (p.79), the Milindapanha (pp.90,164,22,360). It is extensively used for exegetical purposes in the Visuddhimagga and main commentaries and likewise in the sub-commentaries. As has just been shown, it is narrower than dhamma (see also Ch. XXIII,n.18). It often roughly corresponds to "dhatu" (element--see e.g.DhsA.263) and to "lakkhana" (characteristic--see below), but less nearly to the vaguer and (in Pali) untechnical pakati (nature), or to "rasa" (function--see Ch.I,21). The Attasalini observes: 'It is the individual essence, or the generality, of such and such dhammas that is called their characteristic' (DhsA.63); on which the Mula Tika comments: 'The "individual essence" consisting in, say, hardness as that of earth, or touching as that of contact, is not common to all dhammas. The "generality" is the individual essence common to all consisting in impermanence, etc.; also in this context (i.e.Dhs.1) the characteristic of being profitable may be regarded as general because it is the individual essence common to all that is profitable; or alternatively it is their individual essence because it is not common to the unprofitable and indeterminate [kinds of consciousness]' (DhsAA.63). The individual essence of any formed dhamma is manifested in the three instants of its existence (atthita, vijjamanata), namely, ariing, presence (=ageing) and dissolution. It comes from nowhere and goes nowhere (Ch.XV,15) and is borne by the mind. Dhammas without individual essence (asabhava-dhamma) include the Attainment of Cessation (see Ch. XXIII,n.18) and some concepts. Space and time belong to the last mentioned. Of space (akasa) the Tika in the Majjima Nikaya says: 'Though time is determined by the kind of consciosness [e.g. as specified in the first paragraph of the Dhammasangani] and is non-existent (avijjamana) as to indivdual essence, yet as the non-entity (abhava) before and after the moment in which those [conascent and co-present] dhammas occur, it is called the "container 'adhikarana'"; it is perceived (symbolized) only as the state of a receptacle (adhara-bhava)' (DhsAA.62). Of nibbana (for which see Ch. XVI,64ff.), which has its own individual essence, the Mula Tika says: Nibbana is not like other dhammas; because of its extreme profundity it cannot be made an object of consciousness (alambitum) by one who has not realized it. That is why it has to be realized by Change-of lineage. It has profundity surpassing any individual essence belonging to the three periods of time' (Vbh.AA.38). 'Sabhava' has not the extreme vagueness of its parent 'bhava', which can mean anything between 'essence' (see e.g.DhsA.61) and '-ness' (e.g. 'natthi-bhava' = non-existingness -- Ch.X,35). This may be remembered when 'sabhava' is defined as above thus 'It is with essence (saha bhavena) thus it is individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.282), and when it is again defined thus 'A dhamma's own essence or its existing essence (sako va bhavo samano va bhavo) is its individual essence (sabhava)' (Pm.433). "Sabhava' can also be the basis of a wrong view, if regarded as the sole efficient cause or condition of any formed thing (Ch.XVI,n.23). The Sanskrit equivalent, 'svabhava', had a great vogue and chequered history in philosohical discussions on the Indian mainland. This (unlike the word 'dhamma', which has many 'referents') is an instance in which it is of first importance to stick to one rendering. The word is purely an exegetical one; consequently vagueness is undesirable. 'Individual essence' has been chosen principally on etymological grounds, and the word 'essence' (an admittedly slippery customer) must be understood from the contexts in which it is used and not prejudged. Strictly it refers here to the triple moment of arising etc., of formed dhammas that can have such 'existence' in their own right and be experienced as such; and it refers to the realizability of nibbana. We are here in the somewhat magical territory of Ontology, a subject which is at present undergoing one of its periodical upheavals in Europe, this time in the hands of the Existentialists. Consequently it is important to approach the subject with an open mind. 27374 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/25/03 8:19:20 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Hello Howard, > > Howard: > I may be mistaken, but I don't believe Nagarjuna addressed Theravada. > I believe that his works were largely in response to the Sarvastavadin and > Sautrantika schools. > > Michael: > Nagarjuna addressed the Abhidhamma. I don’t know if the schools you > mentioned had Abhidhamma. Did they? His writings were a critique of the > concepts of paramatha dhamma and sabhava/svabhava that had crept up in the > writings about the Abhidhamma. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand that many if not all the early schools developed their own Abhidhamma. The Sarvastivadins in particular developed an Abhidhamma that was incorporated into the Tibetan canon. The Abhidhammas of the various early schools had similarities (not surprising) but were far from the same. What I consider to be mainstream Theravada, different from other early schools, does not treat paramattha dhammas as self-existent entities with core and own-being, but merely as directly and actually experienced fleeting phenomena that are empty and dependent, as opposed to people, trees, houses, cars, and all the infinitely many other conventional entities with which we populate our mind-created world but have no actual existence at all other than conventional. ---------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > For the record, the statement you attribute to Bhikkhu Bodhi is one that I > take considerable exception to. > > Michael: > Sorry but I don’t know what you mean, what exactly do you object? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I *think* you may be misunderstanding me, Michael. Let me clarify that I am not taking exception to what *you* wrote, but to the characterization by B. Bodhi of dhammas as possessing ultimate reality and existence "from their own side". As I have mentioned before, I am leery about "reality" terminology, prefering "actual" to "real", and where what is actual is merely what is actually and directly experienced. Moreover, as I understand the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka, all dhammas are insubstantial, without core, lacking own-being, and being dependently arisen from the coming together of equally empty conditions. To speak of dhammas as existing "from their own side" is to use terminology that suggests independence and own-being, terminology that I consider to be contrary to the Dhamma. I could also add more along the lines of dhammas being dependent on their being known (being objects of consciousness), but that comes from my own personal phenomenalist (yogacara-like) position, and that best be left out of this, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > Metta > Michael > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27375 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:18pm Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > In a message dated 11/24/03 11:37:02 PM Eastern Standard Time, > rjkjp1@y... writes: > > > Nice to have you here Carl, > > The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities(paramattha > > dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only > > conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the > > shadow of what is really there. > > RobertK > ========================= > Don't you mean that the dhammas subsumed by the five aggregates are > paramattha dhammas? The aggregates themselves, being collections of dhammas, are > concept-only, are they not? While instances of hardness are experienced, and > sights are experienced, and smells, and tastes, etc, the aggregate of these > things is never experienced; there is just the thought/idea of that collection. >___ Dear Howard, Good question. This might have something to do with the English word "aggregates" (translation of khandha) which perhaps has a nuance of stuck together. In fact the pali term khandha applies to all instances. For example if painful feeling is arising now this is vedana khandha. So when in a sutta it talks about the khandha of vedana this covers all vedana that could arise, in the present moment, or that arose in the past or that might arise in the future. It is still poiniting us to seing it directly. So indeed the khandha is experienced! These nuances that English translations gives to words show the usefulness of learning the pali - and more than that of course to see that vedana, or sanna, or sankhara or vinnana or rupa can be known without words. RobertK 27376 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vis., groups of rupas Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/25/03 10:03:26 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Howard: "Hi, Larry - > In the following you ask "I am > wondering if any rupa that doesn't have kamma as one of its producers > can be an object of consciouness?" In all seriousness I have to ask in > return "If not, how would anyone know?" " > > Hi Howard, > > Same way we know most things. Reason. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Very suspect, Larry! Highly undependable - subject to deduction errors and false and hidden premisses. ;-) ----------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================== With reasonable metta, ;-)) Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27377 From: Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Hi, Robert - Ahh, what an interesting language usage! There must be instances of that in English as well, though none occurs to me at this moment. With metta, Howard In a message dated 11/25/03 10:20:05 PM Eastern Standard Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: > Don't you mean that the dhammas subsumed by the five > aggregates are > >paramattha dhammas? The aggregates themselves, being collections of > dhammas, are > >concept-only, are they not? While instances of hardness are > experienced, and > >sights are experienced, and smells, and tastes, etc, the aggregate > of these > >things is never experienced; there is just the thought/idea of that > collection. > >___ > Dear Howard, > Good question. This might have something to do with the English > word "aggregates" (translation of khandha) which perhaps has a nuance > of stuck together. > > In fact the pali term khandha applies to all instances. For example > if painful feeling is arising now this is vedana khandha. So when in > a sutta it talks about the khandha of vedana this covers all vedana > that could arise, in the present moment, or that arose in the past or > that might arise in the future. It is still poiniting us to seing it > directly. > So indeed the khandha is experienced! These nuances that English > translations gives to words show the usefulness of learning the pali - > and more than that of course to see that vedana, or sanna, or > sankhara or vinnana or rupa can be known without words. > RobertK > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27378 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: five khandhas Hi Howard, op 25-11-2003 07:19 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Don't you mean that the dhammas subsumed by the five aggregates are > paramattha dhammas? The aggregates themselves, being collections of dhammas, > are > concept-only, are they not? While instances of hardness are experienced, and > sights are experienced, and smells, and tastes, etc, the aggregate of these > things is never experienced; there is just the thought/idea of that > collection. N: I see it differently. The five aggregates are just a classification of conditioned paramattha dhammas: citta, cetasika and rupa. Rupa-khandha comprises all the different rupas which are realities, actualities if you like that word better. The same for the other khandhas. We have to investigate now, in our life these actualities when they appear. Not all of them appear, but let us investigate only those that appear, that is enough. Nina. 27379 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] the lotus Dear Blue, welcome to this group. Are you alluding to the lotus which grows in the water, and does not come out of it, and the lotus which grows out of it and is not wetted by it? It is a beautiful sutta. People have different capabilites for understanding. Nina. op 25-11-2003 07:09 schreef blue lan op shihrenn@y...: > i think we need to go back to see what an example the Buddha had said to us--- > lotus. The Buddha makes such a good example---between people who could > understand the five aggregates and cittas (or they are connected each other). 27380 From: Sarah Date: Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42n Hi Howard, Ken O & All, --- upasaka@a... wrote earlier: H> My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in some sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, this is discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces)only by inference. ..... S>Good points and I agree it seems this way. We’d have said the same about directly knowing namas and rupas when we first heard about them. However, we shouldn’t underestimate what developed panna (wisdom) can know. This knowledge of groups is known directly at the third stage of insight. .... H> I get your point, and I won't say it's wrong, because I can't know that. However, it strikes me that this is making pa~n~na into a catch-all for everything we have a problem explaining, making it a sort of dumping bin for explanations. Now, of course, it is quite possible that in an arahant inference based on sa~n~na is replaced by pa~n~na, but, as I say, if we just assume this is so without evidence and without clear teachings to that effect in the suttas, then there is a real danger of turning pa~n~na into an escape hatch for all difficulties of explanation. .... S: I’ve hesitated to reply again because I’m not sure it will help or that the details (mostly in the commentaries) will satisfy. When people first hear us talking about directly understanding namas and rupas it sounds theoretical and not related to practice. As panna begins to understand these realities directly, there is less doubt about their characteristics or about anatta or the meaning of practice. The first stage of insight clearly distinguishes namas and rupas and certainly no more confusion between them or between realities and concepts. The second stage of insight understands the conditioned nature of realities. Again it seems inferential when we just think about conditions now. The third stage of insight directly understands the succession of namas and rupas as they rise and fall and the comprehension of groups including the arising of rupas in kalapas. Even at this stage, insight is called ‘tender’ and yet we can see how developed it has to be. It’s direct knowledge, but still only one characteristic appearing at a time. However, there are many rapidly succeeding processes accompanied by sati and panna which make this direct knowledge possible. It can only be understood by insight at the time - not by thinking about it - and that’s the problem. It’s similar to your valid qu about how awareness can be aware of a characteristic which has just fallen away. It sounds illogical, but as Ken O said, because of the nature of succeeding cittas (by anantara paccaya-proximity condition) it’s possible and when sati and panna arise and know the characteristic, there’s no doubt at all. We had some discussions about the 3rd stage of insight and kalaapa sammasana (comprehension of the groups) not so long ago and many posts were written. I completely appreciate the difficulties;-) You asked about references and we’ll come to more detail in the Visuddhimagga. You may like to also look at these messages again: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14039.html http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14101.html Whilst the details are not explicity given in the suttas, without the commentary details I don’t think they will be fully appreciated. For example, in the Mulapariyaya Sutta, we read that the ignorant worldling ways of viewing the world and are told this is because earth (pathavi) and all the other elements (dhatu)have not been fully understood. From the commentary to the Mulapariya Sutta: “...He who fully understands the earth understands it by the three types of full understanding: the full understanding of the known(~naata.pari~n~naa), the full understanding of scrutinization(tiira.napari~n~naa), and the full understanding of abandoning (pahaanapari~n~naa).” “Therein, what is the full understanding of the known? He fully understands the earth element thus: “This is the internal earth element, this the external. This is its characteristic, this its function, manifestation, and proximate cause.” This is full understanding of the known. What is the full understanding by scrutinization? Having known it in this way, he scrutinizes the earth element in forty-two modes as impermanent, suffering, a sickness, etc. this is full undestanding by scrutinization. What is the full understanding by abandoning/ Having scrutinized it in this way, he abandons desire and lust for the earth element through the supreme path (aggamagga). This is full understanding by abandoning. Or , alternatively, the defining of mentality-materiality(naamaruupavavatthaana) is the full understanding of the known; from insight-comprehension of the groups (kalaapasammasana) as far as conformity knowledge (anuloma) is the full understanding by scrutinization; and the knowledge of the ariyan path is the full understanding by abandoning.” ***** In short, the knowledge is ‘ehipassiko’, but ‘ehipassiko’ for the developed wisdom that is able to understand these details. As the knowledge develops and tests and proves what has been taught by the Buddha and his key disciples, there will be less and less room for doubt and misgivings as I see it. Again, the test comes back to this moment and the presently arising dhammas. Is there any knowledge about dhammas now? Ken O, you’ve been writing some *amazing* posts and it’s a real joy to have you around again. I agree with all Howard’s comments in this regard and always appreciate your reflections and especially your emphasis on Abhidhamma as practice with or without a sun-tan;-). As Nina would say, don’t go and get attacked by any shark, we need you here;-) ;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27381 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 0:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O (& Suan & Michael), --- Kenneth Ong wrote: K:> I remember talking about this also why can't bhavanga citta be > developed and I remember Suan said that bhavanga citta can also be > changed in this lifetime. I hope Suan is around to verify it. .... There was a long discussion and possibly a difference of opinion;-) I’ll leave this to Suan. .... K:>I > also tend to believe that bhavanga citta can be changed in this life > time, since every citta has latent tendecies and such tendecies can > be changed or not what is the point of learning Buddhism. .... The latent tendencies are worn away and eventually eradicated through the understanding of the kilesa (defilements) and all other realities appearing as objects in the javana processes as I understand. The object of the bhavanga cittas doesn’t change (as Michael explained) and the function of these cittas is merely to provide continuity of the life-span. Each citta is different, arising and falling away, but the object remains the same and it is never developed. As you’ve explained so well elsewhere, by continuity or anantara paccaya, the next citta must follow and the ‘habitual effect’ or anusaya (latent tendencies) is ‘carried over’. Nina is translating/writing a series on this subject she mentioned. Yes, the point of learning Buddhism is to develop wisdom which sees things as they are and eradicate ignorance and other kilesa. No conflict here;-) .... K:>If latent > tendecies cannot be change in bhavanga citta then we are all in big > trouble bc it is bhavanga citta that substains our continuity when > there is no sense object. .... Latent tendencies can be changed, but the necessary wisdom for this doesn’t arise whilst we are deeply asleep, for example. .... K:> I thought Suan has wrote the commentaries and sub-commentaries on > this issue which I think describe it clearly why it is luminoius. .... You may like to check this message of Suan’s and follow the links. I believe his translation of the sub-commentary is also in UP under ‘Luminous’. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m7401.html Perhaps Suan can help with the parts of the post addressed to him directly. Ken O, in your other helpful post to Michael you also wrote: K:> If it is a thing, a self, then the so called conditions > and conditions relations in Abdhidhamma is not valid. Habitual > effect can be change and it is anatta. If it does not change, then > why bother to learn Buddhism in the first place. If it has a self, > how come we cannot tell our habitual effect to stop all these > nonsense. .... Again, good points and the change or gradual wearing away occurs at the time of the javana series of cittas only. Once defilements are eradicated, they cannot arise as latent tendencies with bhavanga cittas or any other cittas. .... K:> Accumalation of Kamma - I dont have a better a word. Accumulations > also ring a bell of essentialism - it is always misconstrue as "a > storehouse of consciousness", or an underlying consciouness. If > there is a another underlying consciouness or a storehouse of > consciouness, does these mean that at each moment of our consciouness > there is a subset of consciouness. Isn't this very confusing. If > each consciouness has a self in it, so that means there is another > entity at work. This is like the argument of a soul. Accumalation > in Abdhidhamma is also impermanent and anatta. In fact the whole > thing how Kamma work is really in the realm of Buddha. In > Abdhidhamma the accumulative effect is a just function of a > cetasikas. Just like vedana function for a citta to feel. .... Excellent and well said, like so many of your comments these days;-) Anumodana with regard to all the careful study and reflection behind the scenes. Metta, Sarah p.s Hope your family are well. Any chance of joining many of us inc. Nina at end Jan in Bkk? ====== 27382 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:12am Subject: Photos Hello Thomas, :-) Thanks for adding your contribution to the Members album, welcome! - it's great to see your happy, friendly face, and I hope it may spur others (new members, long-time members, and returning members) to similar action. Maybe some long-time members might like to update their original photos, perhaps they've finally found that elusive print that shows their 'best' side? - and surely the Dalthorp and Kirkpatrick kids have grown a bit by now?! Another thought - Andrew, has Smokey Joe lost any weight yet? I'm bringing the tape measure this weekend ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27383 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:37am Subject: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Ken H (& Cooranites), This is the support group for dysfunctional DSG ers - we all have our dysfunctional hang-ups;-) You were worried you might have missed a post concerning Azita’s qu on the ‘positioning’ of the khandhas. She may be ...zzzzz..ing off again on zombie shifts, but I think she was referring to this post I wrote recently: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22944.html We learn about our great attachment to rupas, vedana (feelings), sanna (perception). There would be no kilesa (defilements) without rupas, vedana and sanna marking the objects for example. On anapanasati - that post of Jon’s which Nina re-sent is a pretty neat summary (imho) if you’re still on your surf-board up until departure and Andrew is still giving you trouble;-) This is also such a clear description of the ‘Body in the Body’ from a recent post of Nina’s with reminders again of the plaintain trunk - no hidden ‘thingy’ or lasting essence inside: Nina: >Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta (Middle length Sayings, I, 10, translated by Ven. Soma): As to the words: , this Co explains that the world is the five khandhas. ***** Whilst you take care of those longboarders and sharks, we’ve moved on to crocodiles (we ‘did’ sharks a couple of years ago). Our main tourist attraction these days is the search for one very smart croc which managed to escape the dinner table or having its gall bladder and penis extracted for Chinese medicine. Instead it found its way into a truly yucky inner-city surbaban creek. After a team of local very average Government officials were found to be quite incompetent in catching it, a real-life Crocodile Dundee from your part of the world (Queensland) was contacted and happily offered to come up for a couple of days for free to show how they are caught with bare hands and no fuss at all. A few weeks later, the croc is definitely winning and I’m even considering going out to visit the creek;-) (Either way, Chris, the celebrity croc will live in style). What did that have to do with khandhas? Well everything that was just experienced while you read the tale consisted of the khandhas to be known;-) Actually, I was just ‘bonding’ with all of you in Qld. Have fun and report back. Metta, Sarah p.s MN117-Mahacattarika. Very helpful comments you made. I think the ‘right understanding’ ‘that has blemishes and so ripens to clinging’ refers to direct understanding, not just intellectual. Mundane panna, followed by kilesa including attachment as opposed to supramundance panna. Any other comments or commentary notes here? =================================== 27384 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Sarah, and all, Personally, I don't think putting chicken heads in the trap is a good idea, as we hear is happening - the rats and pork are O.K.(small mammals and feral pigs are usual prey) But I would bow to Azita's opinion on this, if she is reading ... I think she mentioned in October that there is a croc in her local creek - (don't let the dogs go swimming, Azita. :-)) The general opinion here is that the croc should have been caught by now - with the use of a spotlight at night to dazzle him/her - but in Hong Kong there is so much light pollution from the high rise buildings that this method is proving ineffective. Off-topic link to some crocs near where Azita lives. But, hey..what can the mods say, when one of them started this? . http://www.proserpineecotours.com.au/crocs.htm Maybe we can talk about red fire-ants next ..jumped off an American ship in Brisbane and are spreading faster than cane-toads around S.E. Queensland. I'll throw in relentless rebirth, the rarity of rebirth in human form, kamma and vipaka, and there you go! On-topic again. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H (& Cooranites), > ***** > Whilst you take care of those longboarders and sharks, we've moved on to > crocodiles (we `did' sharks a couple of years ago). Our main tourist > attraction these days is the search for one very smart croc which managed > to escape the dinner table or having its gall bladder and penis extracted > for Chinese medicine. Instead it found its way into a truly yucky > inner-city surbaban creek. After a team of local very average Government > officials were found to be quite incompetent in catching it, a real- life > Crocodile Dundee from your part of the world (Queensland) was contacted > and happily offered to come up for a couple of days for free to show how > they are caught with bare hands and no fuss at all. A few weeks later, the > croc is definitely winning and I'm even considering going out to visit the > creek;-) (Either way, Chris, the celebrity croc will live in style). > > What did that have to do with khandhas? Well everything that was just > experienced while you read the tale consisted of the khandhas to be > known;-) Actually, I was just `bonding' with all of you in Qld. > > Have fun and report back. > > Metta, > Sarah 27385 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Michael and Larry, Larry, thanks for the link, I will read it as soon as I find the time. I was relieved when I read your post since I was feeling nervous about having to read a whole book. But Michael, incidently yesterday, before receiving this post I went up to where my 'unread' books are stored, and guess what, the book that caught my attention was 'The Central Philosoohy of Buddhism by TRV Murti'!! And today after reading your post I went up again, vaguely remembering the title, 'The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way'. I had to go down on all fours, since the books were scattered every where, (but believe me, 99.5% of them have never been read :-/), and just as I gave up looking and was trying to get up and leave, it was there right under my nose! If Larry's essay arouses my attention enough, I may start to read one of these two books. ;-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Sukin, > > Sukin: > Now you have aroused my curiosity ;-). Can you please direct me to > any such material on the internet? I lack patience in reading, so > please if possible choose one with the most simple writing style and > minimum amount of reading. > > Michael: > Sorry, cannot recomend anything from the web on Nagarjuna. I would recommend > as a starter to read 'The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way' - > Translation and Commentary by Jay L. Garfield. > > The Central Philosoohy of Buddhism by TRV Murti, Dependent Arising and > Emptiness by Elizabeth Napper, The Essence of the Heart Sutta by the Dalai > Lama and A History of Buddhist Philosphy by Kalupahana, are also good > reading. > 27386 From: Sarah Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Christine & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hi Sarah, and all, > > Personally, I don't think putting chicken heads in the trap is a good > idea, as we hear is happening - the rats and pork are O.K.(small > mammals and feral pigs are usual prey) <.....> ..... I thought you might know better, Chris.....All the Star Kids are convinced they’d have done better too;-) Anyway this Star Croc has turned up his jaws at all delicacies and prefers his own ‘non-trap’ finds of dead duck and fish in this yucky creek. (We all laughed when the 'expert' said he’d be wading out in it before his arrival here;-)). Oh - nutritive essence, one of the four ways by which rupas are produced. We could bring in the other ways of cittas, kamma and temperature in this case too;-) .... > The general opinion here is that the croc should have been caught by > now - with the use of a spotlight at night to dazzle him/her - but in > Hong Kong there is so much light pollution from the high rise > buildings that this method is proving ineffective. .... Not to mention the TV crews and teams of journalists and spectators in pursuit. ..... <..> >I'll throw in relentless rebirth, the rarity of rebirth > in human form, kamma and vipaka, and there you go! On-topic again. :-) .... Well done, Chris;-) Now you have another topic for your weekend get together if you need a break from 'breath' discussions. Metta, Sarah ===== 27387 From: htootintnaing Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:07am Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 04 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, After Permanent Ministers and Flexible Ministers ( Cetasikas ) have been described, here Destructive Ministers will be delineated. They destroy the place they home. They put the king Citta into an ugly portrait. 1. Moha He is the leader for all Akusala Cetasikas.It is also called '' Avijja '' that is the opposite of '' Vijja ''( Panna ). All the destructive minds are led by him. It veils the real things and the truth. So, Satta with it will never see real Dhamma. Instead it leads to all the destructive actions. It veils Citta not to see the truth. Then Moha-mounted Citta can do any bad thing with backing of Moha. 2. Ahirika ( shamelessness ) It makes Citta shameless. So, Citta will do everything regardless of glory. All the bad things can be done by shamelessness. There is no inhibition to do things bad in the absence of shame. Shamelessness or Ahirika ignores all decent things. In its presence any Akusala thinkable and imaginable can be committed however wicked the acts are. Ahirika will not consider others' feeling or thought. When this destructive Minister advises the king Citta, then the king Citta becomes no more shamed and he will commit any wicked action at all cost. 3. Anottappa ( fearlessness ) It makes the king Citta dare do everthing. There will be no inhibition to do bad things in the absence of fear. This minister is also as powerful as Ahirika. He also behaves like Ahirika but in a slightly different way that as he has not got any control that means he has no fear, then he can do anything imaginable and thinkable. He advises the king Citta to do everything the king wants and promises that he will never be frightened and fearful and also advises the king not to reluctent to do bad things. 4. Uddacca ( deconcentration ) It makes the knig Citta wandering round from a sense to another successively and causes poor concentration. The king will taste different objects one after another due to the advice given by the Destuctive Minister Uddacca. As Citta is wandering on one object after another in a quick succession, concentration goes into disaster and the mind becomes deconcentrated. Wandering mind easily slips into Akusala actions. In the presence of this Destructive Minister Uddacca all Akusala can easily be committed. 5. Lobha ( Tanha ) It is strong desire or craving for things. Lobha has many different names like Lobha, Tanha, Raga, Adana, Upadana and so on.It makes the king Citta very greedy. According to this Destructive Minister Lobha, the king Citta becomes attached to objects and he will never content to grasp objects. Lobha advises the king Citta to look for object in the sense that Citta always looks for his desired objects. This is something like a thirsty man looking for water everywhere. Lobha Cetasika makes Citta look for desired object thirstily. It expands Sansara and Satta concerned will never end the Samsara in the presence of Lobha Cetasika. 6. Ditthi ( wrong view ) This is not just simply a wrong view. There are a lot of things implicated with this Cetasika. It makes the king Citta misinterprets the things. Under the influence of wrong view, every bad things may be done readily. This Destructive Minister works hand in hand with Lobha Cetasika. When a Satta is greedy, Ditthi also arise in him. Ditthi is something like illusion. There is a real sense but the sense is wrongly interpreted. When a rope is seen, misinterpretation of the rope as a snake may happen under poor light condition. Ditthi also works with Moha. As Moha makes darkness, Ditthi easily misinterpretes. The view Atta has to arise due to the advice of Destructive Minister Ditthi to the knig Citta. As long as Ditthi is present, the stream can never be entered. Ditthi makes Satta to view on realities as self, man, woman, animal and so on, which actually are all Nama and Rupa in their ultimate sense. 7. Mana ( conceit ) It makes the knig Citta proud and Citta will behave himself as self and self-referenced and self-orientated. Citta with Mana will think that he is the topmost person of all people all Sattas. If things are different, destructive mind will appear. Mana also works with Lobha and Moha. As Moha is prevailing, and in the presence of Lobha Cetasika, Mana works happily on Dhamma. Mana assumes himself as the most important person in the universe. And he also advises the king Citta to be conceited. Then Citta with Mana becomes proud and thinks that he is the most powerful, beautiful, educated, prosperous, and all the most of the most. In the presence of Mana, Lobha will not release the object. Mana also expand the Samsara endlessly. 8. Dosa ( anger ) It makes the king Citta angry, furious and the king Citta changes suddenly to an aggressive one. Citta accompanied by Dosa is quite apparent and makes Samyutta-Rupas ugly. Dosa comes in different degrees. And it has different names. Different Dosa have different power of destructiveness. Patiga, Vyapada, Ahinsa, Soka, Domanassa, Upayasa and many other names apply to Dosa. Dosa is the most powerful Destructive Minister in all Akusala Cetasikas in terms of destruction. In every age and in any era, wars have to arise based on Dosa. Atomic bombing that destroyed lots of lives derived from Dosa origionally. 9. Issa ( jealousy ) It makes the king Citta jealous and leads to destructive actions. This destructive Minister works hand in hand with Dosa Cetasika along with Moha and other Moha-Mulaka Cetasikas Ahirika, Anottappa, and Uddacca. Whenever Issa arises Moha, Ahiraka, Anottappa, Uddacca, and Dosa also arise. They all work together and destroy the origionally beautiful status of Citta. As Issa arise Citta has been painted or designed as an ugly being. Issa does not give any achievement but disaster and destruction of internal peace of mind. Issa also encourage Dosa and in the presence of Issa, Dosa can do any wicked thing instantaneously. 10. Macchariya ( stinginess ) It makes the king Citta not to share its own properties with others. Micchariya arise along with Dosa. He does not want others see or listen or smell or taste or touch what he think is his own. Other associated Cetasikas that work with Macchariya Cetasika are Moha, Ahirika, Anottappa, Uddacca, and Dosa. In the presence of Macchariya, Citta becomes so stingy that he will not expose anything to other. Macchariya may raise Dosa to a level that Dosa destroy everything. 11. Kukkucca ( repantance ) This is an ineffective mental factor as it makes the king Citta thinks back what have not been done for Kusala-Kamma and what have been done for Akusala Kamma. This destructive Minister advises the king Citta to think repeatedly what have already done in past. The thoughts associated with Kukkucca are not useful for any sense. They are all useless and even they help Akusala Dhamma proliferate and increase to the level that Kusala Dhamma has no place to home in. Kukkucca should never be borne in mind. 12. Thina ( Sloth ) It makes the king Citta less active. The king becomes tired as this Destructive Minister is continuously advising to hate to take the object. The king Citta then gradually less and less active and then no more interested in taking the objects whether they are good or bad. In the presence of this Destructive Minister Thina, the king Citta become inactive, tired, sluggish and ineffective in performing action in taking objects. 13. Middha ( Topor ) This Destructive Minister is the twin-brother of Thina. Whenever Thina arise, Middha also arise. Middha makes arising Cetasikas less active. Middha makes all Cetasikas tired and unable to do their jobs properly. All Cetasikas becomes sluggish in the presence of Middha. When Middha acts together with Thina, the king Citta is no more able to do its job properly. Everything becomes sluggish. Thina and Middha are not good Cetasikas as they do not contribute to any beautiful mind conditions. 14. Vicikicca ( disbelief/suspicion ) This Destructive Minister advises the king Citta not to believe in Dhamma, Paticcasamuppada, The Buddha, The Sangha and any good things. He raises suspicion in matter. He makes Citta suspicious to rely on The Dhamma. As disbelif is prevailing, all other Akusala Dhamma can be committed in the presence of this Destructive Minister Vicikiccha Cetasika. He will not believe Magga, Phala, Nibbana, The Buddha, The Dhamma, Paticcasamuppada, The Sangha and then in its presence all disasters can arise. These 14 Cetasikas are happening daily in all areas. As they arise, they lead to destructive actions. If one can control these Cetasikas well, he will be in peace. Arahats are those who achieve the state that these 14 Akusala Cetasikas can never arise again as when they were in the lower states of achievement. May you all be in peace by eradicating/derooting these Akusala- Cetasikas with Arahatta Magga With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27388 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Michael Thanks for coming in on this thread, and my apologies for taking so long to get back to you (standard for me, I'm afraid). --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, Howard, ... Michael: I think I understand it the same way you do but never find any confirmation of this in any scripture. Have you? I don't know if you are familiar with Geshe Michael Roach? Out of curiosity, in order to gain a better grasp of the Mahayana thinking, I was listening to his teachings some time ago, and he expressed a quite different view which apparently is the prevalent view in his tradition (Gelug-pa). What he said is that no matter what, past kamma conditions the arising of rupas. Jon: The view that all rupas are conditioned by past kamma would not be in accordance with the orthodox Theravadin position according to which, as I understand it, there are 4 conditioning factors for rupas, namely, kamma, consciousness, temperature and nutriment (see for example CMA VI, 9). Kamma is not a conditioning factor for non-animate rupas. Michael: First I recall reading in the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (please don’t ask me to quote precise details), that the vedana flavor of a certain rupa is influenced by convention. So, although there is no intrinsic flavor to a certain rupa, the majority of the people will react the same way to that experience. And this will mislead them into thinking that the vedana is intrinsic to the rupa (real nature vs conventional nature again). Second, in relation to kusala/akusala and pleasant/unpleasant, the Abhidhammattha also mentions that the combinations are not always straight forward. Take for example the situation of a masochist which will experience pleasure through an akusala rupa/action. Jon: I think the passage you have in mind is the one I have copied below (not from the Abhidhammattha-Sangaha itself, in fact, but the translator's summary of the commentaries on the main text). Note that there is no suggestion of rupas having a 'vedana flavour' of any kind. The passage goes on to say that the javana cittas following the moment of sense-door experience, which are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas, are not governed by the nature of the object but vary in accordance with the proclivities of the experiencer. Thanks again for your comments, and for your posts on other threads. I am enjoying reading them. Jon CMA Guide to par. 17, ch. IV: << << << Sense objects are distinguished into three classes: the undesirable, the moderately desirable, and the extremely desirable... According to the Abhidhamma philosophy, this distinction in the quality of objects pertains to the intrinsic nature of the object itself; it is not a variable determined by the individual temperament and preferences of the experiencer. .. The Sammohavinodani states that the distinction between the intrinsically desirable and undesirable obtains by way of the average being (majjhima-satta) ... Whether on a given occasion one experiences an undesirable, a moderately desirable, or an extremely desirable object is governed by one's past kamma. Thus the object experienced provides the opportunity for kamma to ripen in the form of resultant states of consciousness (vipakacitta). The resultant cittas accord with the nature of the object spontaneously, without deliberation, just as a facial reflection in a mirror accords with the features of the face. >> >> >> See the quoted passage in full at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/14142 [With thanks to Larry for taking the trouble to key in this passage] 27389 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:12am Subject: [dsg] Re: New Member Dear Howard, Yes, I tried to think of something similar as an analogy but couldn't. Once we know what they mean it seems so obvious but trying to see into these expressions that are very foreign to western culture is filled with obstacles at first. The early PTS translators chose the word aggregates and I can see why in the sense that it means a grouping but on the other hand there might have been some word better....:) Or occasionally we hear of someone objecting to paramattha dhammas as a term and yet paramattha dhammas is only another synonym for the khandhas plus nibbana. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Robert - > > Ahh, what an interesting language usage! There must be instances of > that in English as well, though none occurs to me at this moment. > >> > Dear Howard, > > Good question. This might have something to do with the English > > word "aggregates" (translation of khandha) which perhaps has a nuance > > of stuck together. > > > > In fact the pali term khandha applies to all instances. For example > > if painful feeling is arising now this is vedana khandha. So when in > > a sutta it talks about the khandha of vedana this covers all vedana > > that could arise, in the present moment, or that arose in the past or > > that might arise in the future. It is still poiniting us to seing it > > directly. > > So indeed the khandha is experienced! 27390 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - ... Howard: How is what is unobserved and unobservable anything other than concept-only, merely inferable? ... My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in some sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, this is discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only by inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the world", perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. Jon: It's true that as far as you and I are concerned many of the descriptions of the way things are as contained in the Abhidhamma cannot be directly known, at least not at our present stage of understanding and, for some of them, maybe never. I believe we need to distinguish between (a) things that are part of the way things are and are directly knowable (or potentially so) by us and (b) things that are part of the way things are but are not directly knowable by us and never likely to be, i.e., that are directly knowable only by the likes of a Buddha or his great disciples. Things that belong to category (b) are no less part of the way things are for being not directly knowable by us. It may still be useful to know *about* them. Insight knowledge is directly knowledge of the way things are; but only so much insight knowledge is needed to attain enlightenment (enough to penetrate the characteristics of dhammas and the Four Noble Truths). There is a lot more besides that will never be known. Even as regards the suttas, not everything mentioned is knowable, or needs to be known, by every person in order to attain enlightenment. Clearly, the Buddha had to teach for all potential followers, so there is much more there than is sufficient for any one individual. Jon 27391 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Larry) - ... Howard: How is what is unobserved and unobservable anything other than concept-only, merely inferable? ... My specific point is that if rupas arise (somewhere, somehow, in some sense) as a group, but with only one being an object of consciousness, this is discoverable (on evidence, perhaps retrievable from mental traces) only by inference. My more general point is that some of what is true in "the world", perhaps much, is knowable only inferentially. Jon: It's true that as far as you and I are concerned many of the descriptions of the way things are as contained in the Abhidhamma cannot be directly known, at least not at our present stage of understanding and, for some of them, maybe never. I believe we need to distinguish between (a) things that are part of the way things are and are directly knowable (or potentially so) by us and (b) things that are part of the way things are but are not directly knowable by us and never likely to be, i.e., that are directly knowable only by the likes of a Buddha or his great disciples. Things that belong to category (b) are no less part of the way things are for being not directly knowable by us. It may still be useful to know *about* them. Insight knowledge is directly knowledge of the way things are; but only so much insight knowledge is needed to attain enlightenment (enough to penetrate the characteristics of dhammas and the Four Noble Truths). There is a lot more besides that will never be known. Even as regards the suttas, not everything mentioned is knowable, or needs to be known, by every person in order to attain enlightenment. Clearly, the Buddha had to teach for all potential followers, so there is much more there than is sufficient for any one individual. Jon 27392 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi, Larry (and Michael) - In a message dated 11/26/03 12:25:15 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Michael, > > Here is Bhikku ~Nanamoli's note on "sabhava". The main thing is that it > is not permanent. > > Larry > =========================== At least part of the problem is translating 'sabhava' as "essence", because in western philosophy, 'essence' indicates self/core/entitiness/being, and not merely distinguishing characteristic. Also, the form of the Pali word itself suggests that meaning - 'sabhava' literally meaning "own being" or "own nature". The main problem I see with "own nature" is not so much the "nature" part, but the "own" part. For, ultimately, nothing is owned, but merely imparted. The notions of 'self' and 'ownership' go together. It is fortunate, I think, that 'sabhava' rarely occurs in the suttas, and that it's most substantialist sense is rejected in Path of Discrimination of the Khuddaka Nikaya. I think that a fair appraisal will admit that there *is* a tendency in parts of Theravada Abhidhamma and the Theravadin commentarial tradition, towards a pluralist realism/substantialism, borrowed most likely from other early schools. But, I've seen some of this in modern Mahayanist writings as well, writings that adopt a movie-frame view of experience that has more of a discrete quality than the Theravadin picture. The Theravadin picture is that of a gapless stream of consciousness, whereas I have read some modern Mahayanists adopting more of a sequence view, with experience proceeding as a *sequence* of frames separated by empty gaps! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27393 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi, Sukin - In a message dated 11/26/03 5:56:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, sukinder@k... writes: > > Hi Michael and Larry, > > Larry, thanks for the link, I will read it as soon as I find the > time. I was relieved when I read your post since I was feeling > nervous about having to read a whole book. But Michael, incidently > yesterday, before receiving this post I went up to where my 'unread' > books are stored, and guess what, the book that caught my attention > was 'The Central Philosoohy of Buddhism by TRV Murti'!! And today > after reading your post I went up again, vaguely remembering the > title, 'The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way'. I had to go down > on all fours, since the books were scattered every where, (but > believe me, 99.5% of them have never been read :-/), and just as I > gave up looking and was trying to get up and leave, it was there > right under my nose! > > If Larry's essay arouses my attention enough, I may start to read > one of these two books. ;-) > > Metta, > > Sukin. > =========================== I'd like to warn you to use considerable caution in reading 'The Central Philosoohy of Buddhism by TRV Murti'. I consider it to be a Vedantist misreading of Nagarjuna that is way off the mark. I think that the best source for understanding Nagarjuna is Garfield's translation and commentary on Nagarjuna's main work: ***************************************** 1. The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna, Jay L. Garfield (Translator) (Paperback - November 1995) Avg. Customer Rating: Usually ships in 24 hours List Price: $17.95 Buy new: $17.95 Used & new from $13.22 2. The Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way: Nagarjuna's Mulamadhyamakakarika by Nagarjuna, Jay L. Garfield (Translator) (Hardcover - June 1995) Avg. Customer Rating: Usually ships in 24 hours List Price: $65.00 Buy new: $65.00 Used & new from $41.95 ***************************************** You can find this on amazon at: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/index=books& field-titleid=493871&ve-field=none/qid=/102-2293934-2744161 With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27394 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Micheal and Sarah > T: And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, > what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?” > > S: It wouldn’t;-) > > M: Yeah, but the sutta says ‘Luminous is the mind, and it is freed > from incoming defilements’ and that assumes development of the mind or development of bhavanga-citta. So the question still stands, what does it mean to develop bhavanga-citta. k: Lets look at the translation again: "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} k: If you look carefully that "The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present" which applies that if there is no mindfullness, no awareness, there will definitely be no development of the mind. My interpretation is that there is a need to be mindful of bhavanga citta but if you look carefully, the sutta does not indicate development of bhavanga citta. It is telling us that in order to develop the mind, there is a need to be mindful of bhavanga citta. kind regards Ken O 27395 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi KenO, KenO: My interpretation is that there is a need to be mindful of bhavanga citta but if you look carefully, the sutta does not indicate development of bhavanga citta. It is telling us that in order to develop the mind, there is a need to be mindful of bhavanga citta. Michael: First of all there is no reference in the Satipathana Suttas about bhavanga. Second even if it were as you say, it sounds impossible to me. How can you be mindful of bhavanga? How can you be mindful of deep sleep? In order to be mindful you need the senses and bhavanga is disconnected from the senses. I don’t get it. Metta Michael 27396 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hello Larry, Larry: Here is Bhikku ~Nanamoli's note on "sabhava". The main thing is that it is not permanent Michael: I fully agree with the comments made by Howard about this. One should also keep in mind that in additon to sabhava, the use of paramatha dhammas to characterize the agregates only reinforces the realism/substantialism critiscism towards the Abhidhamma. The point is that it is part of human nature to seek one of the extremes: existence and non-existence, and this was clearly pointed by the Buddha. it is a trap that we fall into very easily. BTW for those who intend on reading Nagarjuna, don't be surprised by his intense negative tone, he was writing to dismiss sunstantialist ideas and used extremely strong language. One has to keep in mind to whom he was writing. Ignoring that, it will be very easy to dismiss him, putting his writings in the other extreme of non-existence. Metta Michael 27397 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 8:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hello Howard, Howard: I *think* you may be misunderstanding me, Michael. Let me clarify that I am not taking exception to what *you* wrote, but to the characterization by B. Bodhi of dhammas as possessing ultimate reality and existence "from their own side". As I have mentioned before, I am leery about "reality" terminology, prefering "actual" to "real", and where what is actual is merely what is actually and directly experienced. Moreover, as I understand the teachings of the Sutta Pitaka, all dhammas are insubstantial, without core, lacking own-being, and being dependently arisen from the coming together of equally empty conditions. To speak of dhammas as existing "from their own side" is to use terminology that suggests independence and own-being, terminology that I consider to be contrary to the Dhamma. Michael: I fully agree with you. I am a great admirer of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s writings. I have translated to Portuguese many of his BPS newsletter short essays, but I also think that in relation to dhammas he is off the mark. I prefer the position taken by Nyanaponika Thera in his book Abhidhamma Studies which is very similar to what you are saying. Metta Michael 27398 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken (and Michael, and Sarah) - In a message dated 11/26/03 11:43:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Micheal and Sarah > > > >T: And further, if "mind" in this discourse means bhavanga-citta, > >what would it mean to develop the bhavanga-citta?â€? > > > >S: It wouldn’t;-) > > > >M: Yeah, but the sutta says ‘Luminous is the mind, and it is freed > >from incoming defilements’ and that assumes development of the > mind or development of bhavanga-citta. So the question still stands, > what does it mean to develop bhavanga-citta. > > > k: Lets look at the translation again: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern > that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for > the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of > the mind." {I,vi,1} > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming > defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns > that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for > the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is > development of the mind." {I,vi,2} > > k: If you look carefully that "The uninstructed run-of-the-mill > person doesn't discern that as it actually is present" which applies > that if there is no mindfullness, no awareness, there will > definitely be no development of the mind. My interpretation is that > there is a need to be mindful of bhavanga citta but if you look > carefully, the sutta does not indicate development of bhavanga citta. > It is telling us that in order to develop the mind, there is a need > to be mindful of bhavanga citta. > > > kind regards > Ken O > > =========================== I see this matter differently. On the one hand there is "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements," and on the other hand there is "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." Whether covered by adventitious defilements (as a blackboard is covered by chalk dust or a mirror by dust), or whether it is not so covered, luminous is the mind. The point here, as I see it, is that the defilements do not inhere in the mind as essential characteristics. The mind is luminous one way or the other, and "development" is actually a process of removal, of sweeping away the dust of defilements, leaving the already pure mirror-mind to properly reflect reality. When there is gold ore, the base metals are the base metals, and the gold is the gold, and the process of obtaining gold from the ore is a process of removing the adventitious metals, leaving the gold to be seen as it actually is and was. I also see no reason whatsoever to interpret "Luminous, monks, is the mind" as referring to a particular type of mindstate, especially one that was never taught by the Buddha in any discourse. There is nothing in the sutta to even hint at such a meaning. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27399 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hello Larry, Larry: Here is a link for several Nagarjunian views. Read the first two sections at least: Michael: Thanks for the excelent link. Reading only the first two sections you will miss the best. Go through the end. The author's argument of 'Emptiness as an Epistemological Doctrine' brought to my mind the Madhupindika Sutta - MN18. Metta Michael 27400 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:29am Subject: anapanasati 3 a Anapanasati Part 3 a: We should go back to the second tetrad, group of four, of the sutta on Mindfulness of Breathing: V) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VI) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VII) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VIII) He trains thus ; he trains thus , that is, making happiness (píti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (píti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhånacitta has fallen away paññå realizes the characteristic of píti as it is: only a kind of nåma, which is impermanent and not self. We read: ŠHow with non-confusion? When, after entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhånas accompanied by píti, he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhåna as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight the happiness is experienced with non-confusion owing to the penetration of its characteristics (of impermanence, and so on). **** Nina. 27401 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:29am Subject: FW: Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 25 B Co. Mahaaraahulovaadasutta, 25 B Relevant sutta passage: metta~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of loving kindness, yo byaapaado so pahiiyissati. that which is malevolence will be abandoned... karu.na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of compassion, yaa vihesaa saa pahiiyissati. that which is harming will be abandoned... mudita~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of sympathetic joy, yaa arati saa pahiiyissati. that which is dislike will be abandoned... upekkha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of equanimity, yo pa.tigho so pahiiyissati. that which is anger will be abandoned... asubha~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development of foulness, yo raago so pahiiyissati. that which is attachment will be abandoned... aniccasa~n~na~nhi te, raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavayato For you who are cultivating the mental development that is the perception of impermanence, yo asmimaano so pahiiyissati. that which is the conceit of ³I am² will be abandoned. ***** Commentary text: tattha bhaavayatoti upacaara.m vaa appana.m vaa paapentassa. Here, as regards the expression, for you who are developing, this means: for you who are developing the conditions for reaching access concentration or attainment concentration. yo byaapaadoti yo satte kopo, so pahiiyissati. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being, that will be abandoned. vihesaati paa.niaadiihi sattaana.m vihi.msana.m. As to the word, vexation, this is injuring living beings with one¹s hands and so on. aratiiti pantasenaasanesu ceva adhikusaladhammesu ca ukka.n.thitataa. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction with regard to secluded lodgings and superior qualities. pa.tighoti yattha katthaci sattesu sa"nkhaaresu ca pa.tiha~n~nanakileso. As to the word anger, this refers to the defilements that cause disturbance everywhere with regard to beings and events. asubhanti uddhumaatakaadiisu upacaarappana.m. As to the word foulness, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration by means of a bloated corpse and so on. uddhumaatakaadiisu asubhabhaavanaa ca naamesaa vitthaarato visuddhimagge kathitaava. With regard to the bloated corpse etc. , the development of the meditation on foulness has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. raagoti pa~ncakaamagu.nikaraago. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. aniccasa~n~nanti aniccaanupassanaaya sahajaatasa~n~na.m. As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. vipassanaa eva vaa esaa asa~n~naapi sa~n~naasiisena sa~n~naati vuttaa. Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. asmimaanoti ruupaadiisu asmiiti maano. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. English: Here, as regards the expression, for you who are developing, this means: for you who are developing the conditions for reaching access concentration or attainment concentration. As to the words, what is malevolence, this means: what is anger towards a being, As to the word, vexation, this is injuring living beings with one¹s hands and so on. As to the word aversion, this is dissatisfaction with regard to secluded lodgings and superior qualities. As to the word anger, this refers to the defilements that cause disturbance everywhere with regard to beings and events. As to the word foulness, this refers to access concentration and attainment concentration by means of a bloated corpse and so on. With regard to the bloated corpse etc. , the development of the meditation on foulness has been explained in detail in the Visuddhimagga. As to the word attachment, this is attachment with regard to the five objects of sensual pleasure. As to the expression, perception of impermanence, this refers to perception that arises together with contemplation of impermanence. Or, just insight; although this is not perception, it is called perception because it is under the heading of perception. As to the words ³conceit of I am², this is conceit of ³I am² in materiality and so on. **** Nina. 27402 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. XIV 37, one kamma producing more fruits. Hi Larry, Thispart of the Tiika is in a complicated laguage, and it deals with speculations at that time which are refuted. I do not like the translation of attabhava as selfhood, prefer individuality. As to should be differentiation of the cause, kaara.navisesassa. I can follow the Pali, but I shall not spend too much time on these notes that deal with refutations. Here and there I shall render a part. See below. op 10-11-2003 02:45 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: 14. 'Here the first-mentioned characteristic of the eye is described according to the kamma that produces a selfhood, and is common to all of it, and this without touching on differentiation is the cause. Larry: The way I read this, the gist of the commentary (note 14) is that the > eye arises because of kamma that produces all the senses or because of > kamma that produces just the eye. The kamma that produces the eye is the > desire to see and the kamma that produces all the senses _incorporates_ > the desire to see. Is that your interpretation of this note? N: I cannot make out much of it, just that people asked whether one kamma can produce more fruits, and it can. L: Also, does this mean we get whatever we desire? N: It solely depends on intricate conditions. There are conditions of the past, we were also in the past pursuing sense objects, and this is a condition that kamma produced our rebirth in a sensuous plane and produced the sense organs so that we can experience sense objects again and again. Nina. 27403 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Howard, Important issue again. op 24-11-2003 14:13 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> ============================= > I've been thinking over this matter, Nina, and I think I've come to > the nub of my position. It seems to me that experiencing something *as an > object* is only one way of experiencing a thing. In particular, the difference > is > most easily seen with regard to feelings and emotions. There is a difference > between being angry and experiencing anger as an object, there is a difference > between being happy and experincing happiness as an object, and there is a > difference between experiencing a taste or touch etc as pleasant and > experincing > that pleasantness as an object. This difference is the difference between a > "participatory" or non-dual (oh, oh! ;-) mode of experiencing and the > subject-object mode. N:As you say, There is a difference > between being angry and experiencing anger as an object. Anger is angry, it is an experience. What does it experience? Not nothing, an object. The object of anger, whatever it may be, an unpleasant sound, or an event, a story. Anger is not rupa which does not experience anything. As to experiencing anger as an object, a citta arising shortly afterwards can take the previous anger as object, it is still "present". Here is some Abhdidhamma: anger, dosa, is a cetasika. Cetasika arises together with citta and experiences the same object as the citta it accompanies. Feeling arises together with a citta and experiences the same object as the citta. All cetasikas experience, but they experience the object they share with citta each in their own way. Feeling experiences the flavour of the object, thus, it experiences the object. There are two kinds of realities in our life: one kind experiences, and one kind does not experience anything. Nama and rupa, and they have different characteristics. Gradually we can get used to their characteristics, we do not have to name them. There may be conditions for a "participatory mode of experience", but what is that? We are taken in, asbsorbed by the object, and may identify ourselves with it, take it for self. The Abhidhamma helps us to become detached from the object. Detachment is the goal. I do not see the Abhidhamma as promoting a subject object mode (don't let Dan know about the words subject-object!). Subject-object is too loaded for me. Object, in Pali aaramma.na:means foundation, support, a basis for the working of citta and cetasikas. This analysing may not appeal to you, but, I like to stress again, it is for the practice. Abhidhamma is for practice. We all can remind ourselves that we should know and detach, let go immediately. I appreciate such reminders from A. Sujin. Nina. P.S. What is reification? It is not in my dictionary. 27404 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello to all in the Luminous Mind corner, Though not able to join in the discussion, I am reading your posts with interest. I am not sure if this article entitled "Luminous Mind" by Bhante Henepola Gunaratana is familiar to people. For what it's worth, it can be found at: http://www.gbvihara.org/Luminousmind.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: 27405 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:25am Subject: Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 04 ) Dear Htoo Naing, (Nina) and all, Thank you for your posts on 'Cetasikas as Designers and Helpers'. Sometimes the mention of cetasikas in posts to the Lists, or in Nina's book "Cetasikas", makes it seem to me as if they are descriptions of "strong" flavours in a mind moment. A while ago, I was surprised to be told that what I thought was my 'good mannered' deferring to the superior knowledge of others in a group, as compared to my own beginning understanding, was merely a form of omaana (inferiority conceit). I learned that there existed superiority conceit (atimaana) and equality conceit (maana) as well. If 'comparing' is conceit, does this mean that any recognition of difference between self and other is conceit? I think that it is easy to recognise dosa (anger) when it is strong enough to kill or harm, but I wonder what are some very subtle examples of dosa, lobha, and moha? And the purpose of learning about cetasikas - it's helping us to see the utter anatta-ness of everything? ... just checking .. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > After Permanent Ministers and Flexible Ministers ( Cetasikas ) have > been described, here Destructive Ministers will be delineated. They > destroy the place they home. They put the king Citta into an ugly > portrait. <<>> 27406 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Photos I think it 's a good idea. When looking at young and old pictures of us, we should always reflect, "Who am I?" Am I this baby, or this kids, of this teenager. or the young man, or the middle aged man, or the old man? We were all once, and we will find that we are none of that, but something completely different. Gassho, Thomas christine_forsyth wrote: Hello Thomas, :-) Thanks for adding your contribution to the Members album, welcome! - it's great to see your happy, friendly face, and I hope it may spur others (new members, long-time members, and returning members) to similar action. Maybe some long-time members might like to update their original photos, perhaps they've finally found that elusive print that shows their 'best' side? - and surely the Dalthorp and Kirkpatrick kids have grown a bit by now?! Another thought - Andrew, has Smokey Joe lost any weight yet? I'm bringing the tape measure this weekend ... :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27407 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 11:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 04 ) Dear Htoo Naing, I hope this is not a stupid question, do you think that Hitler, Dshinghis Khan etc. was such Destructives Ministers? Metta, Thomas htootintnaing wrote:Dear Dhamma Friends, After Permanent Ministers and Flexible Ministers ( Cetasikas ) have been described, here Destructive Ministers will be delineated. They destroy the place they home. They put the king Citta into an ugly portrait. 1. Moha He is the leader for all Akusala Cetasikas.It is also called '' Avijja '' that is the opposite of '' Vijja ''( Panna ). All the destructive minds are led by him. It veils the real things and the truth. So, Satta with it will never see real Dhamma. Instead it leads to all the destructive actions. It veils Citta not to see the truth. Then Moha-mounted Citta can do any bad thing with backing of Moha. <.......> 27408 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/26/2003 11:52:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > I prefer the > position taken by Nyanaponika Thera in his book Abhidhamma > Studies which is > very similar to what you are saying. ========================== Yes, that pleased me as well. With metta, Howard 27409 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Michael: "the use of paramatha dhammas to characterize the aggregates only reinforces the realism/substantialism criticism towards the Abhidhamma." Hi Michael, The main difference I see between abhidhamma and madhyamika is that in abhidhamma emptiness is revealed by impermanence. This results in a devaluation of the object and the consequent end of desire for the object. In madhyamika emptiness is revealed in the fabricated nature of the object. This actually enhances the value of the object. Emptiness IS nibbana, the end of suffering. There is no turning away from the world. Life is beautiful. However, because suffering is seen as merely conceptual there can be a problem with ethics. For this reason training in madhyamika is secret. Only given to those who have a comprehensive background in wisely working only for the benefit of others and also accompanied by intensive training in samma samadhi. Larry 27410 From: Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Nina - In a message dated 11/26/2003 1:29:44 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > Important issue again. > op 24-11-2003 14:13 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...:> > ============================= > > I've been thinking over this matter, Nina, and I think I've come to > > the nub of my position. It seems to me that experiencing something *as an > > object* is only one way of experiencing a thing. In particular, the difference > > is > > most easily seen with regard to feelings and emotions. There is a difference > > between being angry and experiencing anger as an object, there is a difference > > between being happy and experincing happiness as an object, and there is a > > difference between experiencing a taste or touch etc as pleasant and > > experincing > > that pleasantness as an object. This difference is the difference between a > > "participatory" or non-dual (oh, oh! ;-) mode of experiencing and the > > subject-object mode. > N:As you say, There is a difference > > between being angry and experiencing anger as an object. > Anger is angry, it is an experience. What does it experience? Not nothing, > an object. The object of anger, whatever it may be, an unpleasant sound, or > an event, a story. Anger is not rupa which does not experience anything. As > to experiencing anger as an object, a citta arising shortly afterwards can > take the previous anger as object, it is still "present". ---------------------------- Howard: I almost agree with what you say in the foregoing. Anger *is* an experience. But, as an experience, I consider it to be a nondual one. -------------------------------- > Here is some Abhdidhamma: anger, dosa, is a cetasika. Cetasika arises > together with citta and experiences the same object as the citta it > accompanies. Feeling arises together with a citta and experiences the same > object as the citta. ------------------------------- Howard: I do *not* see anger as taking an object, but as an experience arising in response to discerning an object. It is, indeed, *associated* with that object, but anger is not a knowing, vi~n~nana is. When we speak of "the object of ones's anger," what is meant is that object whose discerning resulted in anger and with which the anger is associated by the mind - it is what one is angry *about*. The anger arising with regard to an object does not co-occur with the discerning of that object. From contact with an object, feeling follows (dependent on that contact), and what one feels one obsesses about, and then anger may arise. As far as the suttas are concerned this is basic Buddhism it seems to me. First comes the contact, later the feeling, still later the reaction of craving or aversion. ------------------------ All cetasikas experience, but they experience the > object they share with citta each in their own way. Feeling experiences the > flavour of the object, thus, it experiences the object. > There are two kinds of realities in our life: one kind experiences, and one > kind does not experience anything. Nama and rupa, and they have different > characteristics. Gradually we can get used to their characteristics, we do > not have to name them. > There may be conditions for a "participatory mode of experience", but what > is that? We are taken in, asbsorbed by the object, and may identify > ourselves with it, take it for self. ------------------------------ Howard: That is a different story, and it is not what I mean by "participatory experience". There are two different ways to experience pleasantness, and only one of them is as an object. Moreover, I know from personal experience that the participatory mode of experiencing is possible more generally than as regards affective states: it is in effect whenever there is no sense of self. ----------------------------- The Abhidhamma helps us to become > detached from the object. Detachment is the goal. > I do not see the Abhidhamma as promoting a subject object mode (don't let > Dan know about the words subject-object!). Subject-object is too loaded for > me. > Object, in Pali aaramma.na:means foundation, support, a basis for the > working of citta and cetasikas. ------------------------------ Howard: That's too general for the context we are discussing, as I see it. Concentration is a basis and support for wisdom - that doesn't make concentration the object of wisdom. ----------------------------- > This analysing may not appeal to you, but, I like to stress again, it is for > the practice. Abhidhamma is for practice. ----------------------------- Howard: Naaah! It's for learned conversations, Nina! ;-)) More seriously, I do find elements of Abhidhamma useful as a framework to think about some aspects of the Dhamma, but I don't put anywhere near the same stock in it as you. but, then, you knew that! ;-)) ----------------------------- We all can remind ourselves that > we should know and detach, let go immediately. I appreciate > such reminders > from A. Sujin. ---------------------------- Howard: Yay!! Complete agreement! :-) ---------------------------- > Nina. > P.S. What is reification? It is not in my dictionary. --------------------------- Howard: It is mental "thing making". It mentally creates a separate, self-existent entity where none exists. What is the case is that "internal" reification amounts to I-making, which is something that all Buddhists, but most especially the Theravadins, get upset about, and "external" reification is the primary b^ete noir of the Mahayanists. My take on the matter is that the Buddha had no use for either. =========================== With metta, Howard 27411 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hello Larry, Larry: The main difference I see between abhidhamma and madhyamika…. Michael: I appreciate your analysis but don’t feel that I am quite prepared to have a deep debate about those philosophical differences. It is a very controversial subject which could keep us busy for the rest of our lives. And frankly I suspect the others in the list would have little interest as well. I think the Abhidhamma devoid of any substantialist connotations is an excellent tool. I prefer to discard the commentaries of the Abhidhamma that focus on paramatha dhamma and sabhava and to side with Nyanaponika Thera in his assessment of the Abhidhamma: “Now, in what sense can the Abhidhamma be called a philosophy? Let us make a rough division of philosophy into phenomenology and ontology, and briefly characterize them as follows: Phenomenology deals, as the name implies, with "phenomena," that is, with the world of internal and external experience. Ontology, or metaphysics, inquires into the existence and nature of an essence, or ultimate principle, underlying the phenomenal world. In other words, phenomenology investigates the questions: What happens in the world of our experience? How does it happen? Of course, when inquiring into the "what" and "how," philosophy is not satisfied with the surface view of reality as it presents itself to the naive and uncritical mind. Ontology, on the other hand, insists, at least in most of its systems, that the question "how" cannot be answered without reference to an eternal essence behind reality, whether conceived as immanent or transcendent. Particularly in the latter case the question "how" is frequently changed into a "why," containing the tacit assumption that the answer has to be sought somewhere or somehow outside of the given reality. The Abhidhamma doubtlessly belongs to the first of these two divisions of philosophy, that is, to phenomenology.” Metta Michael 27412 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 7:22pm Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Dear Sarah and James, --------------- S: > You were worried you might have missed a post concerning Azita's qu on the `positioning' of the khandhas. <...> I wrote recently: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22944.h tml ------------------- Thank you. As I suspected, it was a post which I had mentally marked, "come back and read this again more carefully." And the rest is history. -------------------- S: > We learn about our great attachment to rupas, vedana (feelings), sanna (perception). There would be no kilesa (defilements) without rupas, vedana and sanna marking the objects for example. -------------------- Yes, I think I see the significance. Changing the subject slightly: sankhara-khandhas are sometimes called 'volitional formations;' (Volition is among their number and so, I suppose, they are all volitional.) Are sanna and vedana any less volitional than the other cetasikas? -------------------- S: > On anapanasati - that post of Jon's which Nina re- sent is a pretty neat summary (imho) if you're still on your surf-board up until departure and Andrew is still giving you trouble;-) ------------------ Yes, I have already come across that post in a couple of places. Along with others like it, it is just too good to leave out of my summary. In fact, I have been spending so much time on Nina's explanation of why the sutta and commentaries are important, that I haven't quite got around to the sutta and commentary quotes themselves. (Oh what a give-away!) ------------------ S: > This is also such a clear description of the `Body in the Body' from a recent post of Nina's with reminders again of the plaintain trunk - no hidden `thingy' or lasting essence inside: Nina: >Contemplating the Body in the Body: now we go to the Co to Satipatthana Sutta --------------------------------- I have made a note of that too, somewhere. I will read it again, soon, with a quiet mind (so to speak). At the moment, I have too many facts spinning in my head. Let this be a lesson to you: preparation of discussion papers (and other thingys), should not be put off until the last minute. ---------------- . . . S: > What did that have to do with khandhas? Well everything that was just experienced while you read the tale consisted of the khandhas to be known;-) Actually, I was just `bonding' with all of you in Qld. Have fun and report back. Metta, Sarah ------------- Thanks, but you are already bonded with us -- there is no need to appear croc-savvy. :-) -------------- S: > p.s MN117-Mahacattarika. Very helpful comments you made. I think the `right understanding' `that has blemishes and so ripens to clinging' refers to direct understanding, not just intellectual. Mundane panna, followed by kilesa including attachment as opposed to supramundance panna. Any other comments or commentary notes here? --------------- I'm sure you're right. What swayed me the other way was the term, "ripens to." It seemed to mean more than "can be taken as an object of." Isn't it the case that no volitional action, that occurs with satipatthana, can condition (ripen to), rebirth (of the five aggregates of clinging)? Ignore that question if it is incomprehensible, I might have my wires crossed. Thanks for your feedback on that post and thanks, too, to James who also kindly responded. I spent hours, James, (literally hours), on my response to your post but couldn't sort my ideas out. With this reminder, I will try again and post it ready or not. Kind regards, Ken H 27413 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael I know you will ask that :) cheers. Bhavanga citta is deep sleep. Firstly you have to understand the thought process in Abdhidhamma. For eg: we can only be mindful of a pain only after the pain is experience (i.e. since only one object at a time is being cognize, therefore mindfullness is only possible after it has happened as it is another object) Hence we can be mindful of it. In this sense, the whole spectrum of consciouness, we must be mindful - then there is a development of the mind. You said there is no reference in Satipatthana on this, isn't bhavanga citta also a consciousness. it is impt to note bhavanga citta bc it covers 3 out of 17 in a thought process (that is about 18%) rgds Ken O 27414 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:59pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Howard > I see this matter differently. On the one hand there is > "Luminous,monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements," and on the other hand there is "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." Whether covered by adventitious defilements (as a blackboard is covered by chalk dust or a mirror by dust), or whether it is not so covered, luminous is the mind. The point here, as I see it, is that the defilements do not inhere in the mind as essential characteristics. The mind is luminous one way or the other, and "development" is actually a process of removal, of sweeping away the dust of defilements, leaving the already pure mirror-mind to properly reflect reality. When there is gold ore, the base metals are the base metals, and the gold is the gold, and the process of obtaining gold from the ore is a process of removing the adventitious metals, leaving the gold to be seen as it actually is and was. k: Howard: This position looks like the position that the mind is originally pure which sounds like an essentialism perspective. Bhavanga citta is more appropriate bc it is impermenant and anatta and it reduce the possiblility of an essentialism perspective. Furthermore in Abdhidhamma thought process - bhavanga citta is the start of a sense process, hence it will be either be defile or not. > I also see no reason whatsoever to interpret "Luminous, > monks, is the mind" as referring to a particular type of mindstate, especially one that was never taught by the Buddha in any discourse. There is nothing in the sutta to even hint at such a meaning. k: Yes you are right, you cant find this in any sutta. As I explain earlier to you, there is no way Abdhidhamma going to find concrete material proof for its existence in the Sutta except for inference to it. rgds Ken O 27415 From: nordwest Date: Wed Nov 26, 2003 10:36pm Subject: Why shouldn't we do what pleases us, when there is noone who is? Why shouldn't we do what pleases us, when there is noone who is? Non-daulistic teachings say, that there is no personal Self, we are one with all that is, but we think we are an individual being, which is the wandering process of mind, namely the Thinking, or an illusion. Of course the next question in this topic would be, "Fine, so doing a faulty deed is also an illusion?" - Yes, it is. Totally. Noone is been harmed, because there is noone. It is all a mind-construct. Next question: So why does it even count if I steal, kill, talk or think faulty etc.?" - The answer is, "It does matter in our mind! We instantly think of a common reactions to our deeds. The reaction arises from ourselves, our individual pattern of reactional thinking. It is our mind which reacts greatly to everything, not the world itself, which is empty [not-existing] in it self. - Just think of it as in the movie The Matrix. A great buddhist movie, reality is like that, only that our mind takes the place of the machine-beings. So any faulty deed matters only as long as you haven't won control over this Matrix, as long as you are not enlightened. Until then, every evil deed makes to transmigrate in various states of existences, may they be fortunate or less fortunate in accordance to to deeds (and thoughts) only. A faulty thought is as bad as a faulty deed, there is hardly any difference. Killing and stealing is faulty, there is no way around it. The only thing that can save oneself from transmigrating in unfortunate states is compassion and unconditional love. Those "simple" tools are helpful and create a field of wisdom over time, a field where enlightenment becomes more likely. Yours in the Matrix ;0) Thomas 27416 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: That's okay. Honestly, I was hoping for a breather and that > you had dropped the issue after my last post, but I should have known > better! ;-). Sarah, you are going to exhaust me! ;-))) .... Hope it’s not that bad.....threads are never dead as far as I’m concerned;-)) ..... > James: Yea, the best posts are those that agree! ;-) Seriously, my > posts have been better because I have been using references out the > yin yang…even Pali! Yuck. It is too much; I am not pleased with > myself. I need to lurk more and write less; meditate/practice > mindfulness more and search references less. Don't want to lose good > accumulations through poor choices.;-) .... ;-) Actually, I wasn’t referring to any agreement, but you know this. In appreciation of the ‘kusala’ at work. (That means it’s good;-)). .... > James: Buddhaghosa wrote, "In some instances this path of > purification is taught by insight alone…" Notice the word `alone'. > You are stating the exact opposite of what Buddhaghosa wrote. ..... I appreciate that it may sound like this. However, this refers to the development of the path and realization of nibbana by insight without jhanas as basis, i.e dry-visioned (sukkha-vipassaka). ~Naa.namoli gives this quote from the commentary to the Visuddhimagga (Pm 9-10) to the first reference of ‘insight alone’: >”The words ‘insight alone’ are meant to exclude, not virtue, etc, but serenity (i.e jhana), which is the opposite number in the pair, serenity and insight. This is for emphasis. But the word ‘alone’ actually excludes only that concentration with distinction [of jhana]; for concentration is classed as both access and absorption (see ch 1V, 32). Taking this stanza as the teaching for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three contemplations of impermanence, pain, and not-self; not contemplation of impermanence alone’.” < ***** In other words, as you described in your previous post, the eightfold path factors are all developed together, but by conditions, there are variations, such as in jhana development. .... <...> > Sarah: I accept that you and other writers may read passages in a > different light. > > James: That is good because I don't think we are ever going to agree > on this. If you can explain to me how Buddhaghosa didn't really > mean `alone' when he wrote `alone', by only using what is in context > (not additional sources), maybe we can agree. ..... Well, I did give the Tiika (sub-commentary) source. Throughout the texts, including suttas, we read about the pairing or yoking of serenity and insight. We also read about ways of enlightenment such as in AN, Bk of 4s, so I understood the reference to ‘insight alone’ in just this way. Now we’ve started with this first section of the Visuddhimagga, you might like to post the next section from RobertK’s website for further discussion;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27417 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, Thanks for continuing with this difficult subject: --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > OK. But lets look again at what the sutta says. In parts: > > ‘Luminous is the mind,’ > So, based on the commentaries this refers to bhavanga citta in a state > of > deep sleep, and bhavanga is pure and luminous. (bhavanga is experiencing > the > rebirth object which was defiled and therefore how can bhavanga be pure > if > it is experiencing a defiled object?) ..... It is not the objects which are 'defiled' but certain kinds of consciousness. The defilements are the cetasikas which accompany the javana cittas. They can take any object, as I'm discussing with Victor. For example, attachment to jhana cittas or objects. The present attachment is the defilement. As I discussed with Ken O, of course the anusayas (latent tendencies) are still 'carried' by all cittas until eradicated, even the 'pure' ones. .... > > ‘and it is freed from incoming defilements’ > So, the sutta refers to ‘it’ which has to be the same mind as before, or > > bhavanga citta. And ‘freed from incoming defilements’ means development > – > bhavana. Therefore the question is: how is the development of bhavanga > citta. .... So, based on the commentaries again (;-)), it refers to the bhavanga citta(s) and it is: “‘Freed’: because of wholesomeness arising at the time of impulsion, without being passionate, hateful or deluded, and because consciousness is accompanied by three wholesome roots, accompanied by wisdom, and thus it is indeed freed of the arising of oncoming defilements.” No development of bhavanga cittas. ‘Freedom’ is the eradication of the unwholesome cittas arising in the javana process andit is the gradual development which leads to this. > Michael: > Yeah, I know that MahaKaccana is considered the father of exegesis in > Theravada but Bhikkhu Bodhi was referring to commentaries on the > Abhidhamma, > not commentaries in general. It is the first time I hear that Abhidhamma > was > recited in the first council. Were does that come from? ..... I’ll sign off and add the most recent letter on this topic which Nina sent to Icaro, quoting some of my comments. (He raised exactly the same point as you - perhaps it’s the Brazilian water - just kidding;-)). I'm not meaning to opt out,(well, maybe somewhat), but you have raised all the BIG issues at one hit and some in the same post, like here;-) I’d be grateful if you’d read it, maybe follow the links and let me know anything else you’d like us to consider. I’m also happy to continue discussing the luminous thread, so let me know how it’s going and thanks again for your comments and tough questions, Michael. Metta, Sarah http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24626 Subject: Re: [dsg]Abhidhamma dating. Dear Icaro, There are many posts on the subject of the dating of the Abhidhamma. I shall repost part of what Sarah wrote: see below. op 26-08-2003 15:13 schreef icaro franca op icarofranca@y...: > Putting aside legends, the Abdhidhamma was > written circa 300 years after Buddha´s Parinibbana. > It seems a resumed text-book (The Vibbhanga IS a > text-book or primer at its strucutre!)of all dialogs, > meditations, visions, reasonings (dreams and muttering > too!)of the Sangha in all that golden years of Buddha > preaching. Nina quotes posts from Sarah: Nina: The word of the Buddha, the Dhamma and the Vinaya as taught by him, consists of nine divisions which are: Sutta, Geyya, Veyyåkaraùa, Gåthå, Udåna, Itivuttaka, Jåtaka, Abbhuta and Vedalla. See the ‘Expositor’, Atthasåliní, Introductory Discourse, 26. The teachings as compiled (not yet written) literature are thus enumerated in the scriptures as nine divisions, for example in the ‘Middle Length Sayings’ I, no. 22. (Majjhima Nikaya, you can find it in your down load.) Sutta, geyya, etc. are nine divisions (angas) of the Tipitaka, and of these: Veyyåkaraùa or ‘Exposition’ includes the Abhidhamma Piìaka, the suttas without verses, and the words of the Buddha which are not included in the other eight divisions. Post from Sarah: Also from Sarah: QUOTE ***** "The Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time. This can be proved from the following passages in the Book of Discipline, vol 111: a)"p.415 "Not given leave means: without asking (for permission). Should ask a question means: if, having asked for leave in regard to Suttanta, she asks about discipline or about Abhidhamma, there is an offence of expiation. If, having asked for leave in regard to Abhidhamm, shes asks about Suttanta or about Discipline, there is an offence of expiation." b) "p.42 "There is no offence if, not desiring to disparage, he speaks, saying: "Look here, do you master suttantas or verses or what is extra to dhamma (i.e. Abhidhamma)and afterwards you will master discipline’; if he is mad, if he is the first wrong-doer." "These passages clearly show that Abhidhamma was in existence during The Buddha’s time because rules about it were laid down by Him. c)"Also in Middle Length Sayings 1, p.270.....Gosinga sal-wood.......Further dhamma...*....Mogallana is a talker on dhamma** Footnotes * "It is Abhidhamma and it is specifically stated in the Burmese Editions.... ** "Moggallana is called chief of those of psychic power, Ai,23. MA ii,256 explains that abhidhamma-men, having come to knowledge of subtle points, having increased their vision, can achieve a supermundane state’. Non-abhidhamma-men get muddled between ‘own doctrine’(sakavaada) and ‘other doctrine’ (paravaada)." d)"Again, at the time The Buddha returned to Sankassanagara from Tavatimsa, the realm of 33 gods, Sariputta, in Sariputta Sutta, unttered the following in praise of The Buddha: "Erst have I never seen Nor heard of one with voice So sweet as his who came From Tusita to teach." (Suttanipata verse No 955, transl by E.M. Hare, p.139) ...... "This verse is also found in Mahaniddesa (Sixth Synod, p.386), where there is a detailed commentary on it. The following is the commentary on the first line: "At the time The Buddha, after having resided for the period of Lent on the Pandukambala Stone at the foot of the Coral tree in Tavatimsa, came down to Sankassanagara.......... "When Sariputta, based on the methods given by The Buddha, preached Abhidhamma to his pupils, The Buddha not only stated that He had expounded the Abhidhamma in Tavatimsa but also narrated this Sariputta Sutta to be left behind as evidence of having done so for the later generations. The Mahaniddesa was included in the Three Councils.> ***** Note:The Bahiranidana is the intro to the Co of the Vinaya by Buddhaghosa. You will have your hands full. I quote these passages because I find that there are many misunderstandings about the dating of the Abhidhamma. This subject comes up all the time, as you will see. And see this one from Sarah today: <“But in the list [of four things] beginning with sutta, sutta means the three baskets which the three Councils recited. ‘Accordance with sutta’ means legitimate by being in accord [with what is explicitly legitimate]. ‘The word of a teacher’ means the commentary.> N: Thus three Baskets, not two. Abhidhamma is included. Nina. ============================================= 27418 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:07am Subject: Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, Hi Sarah, I am not convinced by a commentary, written by ~Naa.namoli, that states to the extent, "Well, Buddhaghosa didn't really mean `alone' when he wrote `alone', this is what he really meant…". Remember, I asked for in-text support, no outside sources. It is up to Buddhaghosa to explain what he means, not anyone else. It wouldn't have been that difficult, all he would have had to do is written, "In some instances this path of purification is taught by insight as the leading factor." What is so difficult about that? It wouldn't require paragraphs and paragraphs of explanation. Instead he chose to write "alone". I believe there is a reason he chose to write it this way, which I will get to later in this post. And then looking carefully at this commentary, it states that there is often the pairing of insight and concentration and that is what Buddhaghosa was referring to when he wrote `alone'. But even then he didn't really mean alone, he meant without the jhanas, because access concentration is of course necessary. What??? This is pure doublespeak. It is semantic juggling to explain what Buddhaghosa should have written. You write, "We also read about ways of enlightenment such as in AN, Bk of 4s, so I understood the reference to `insight alone' in just this way." Okay, so I am to understand that you knew he meant without the jhanas when he wrote alone, what about the rest of the values he lists? As I previously explained, Buddhaghosa sets up a definitive structure of parallelism* in this introduction where the criteria of `alone' doesn't just apply to insight, it also applies to: jhana and understanding, deeds, virtue, foundations of mindfulness, and efforts. Buddhaghosa sees this as a problem, a question that needs to be answered- Which of these is the path to purification? -so he concludes, "But in the answer to this question it is taught by virtue and the other two." To me, he has created a problem, a question, where none existed, just so that he could answer it…but the answer was there all along. In order to create this question he separated those values, he created different paths to purification, and used sutta quotes as support. Again, I am only looking at what he wrote. I believe that he does state that there are different paths to purification, even though they only really exist in an idealized state, but decides on what he considers to be the one, true path. Metta, James *parallelism: Similarity of construction or meaning of clauses placed side by side, especially clauses expressing the same sentiment with slight modifications… http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parallelism 27419 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi Michael, This post is a little more problematic (for me) as I feel I may be about to step into a mine field.....Thankfully, others far more qualified like Howard and Larry have come in to help with the end of your post where I may have been treading on toes (apologies if so). .... --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Sarah, > Michael: > Explain to me please, all cittas, cetasikas and rupas described in the > Abhidhamma of the Pali Tipitaka are exaustive? I mean do they explain > all > that should be comprehended as paramattha dhamma (ultimate realities). > Could > there be anything missing? Could there be too much, i.e things that are > not > paramatha but have been included? ..... Certainly exhaustive of anything we or anyone else could ever need to know. Yes, all that should be comprehended as paramattha dhammas without any exceptions. For your last question, it depends on your meaning. Concepts are also used to convey meanings about paramattha dhammas. Michael, rather than too much or too little, I think the important thing is the understanding when we read any part of the Tipitaka. As Ken O put it so well in a recent post: ..... >k: Maybe at this point of time, I like to clarify that Abhidamma is not just a scholaristic view of the dhammas which I have in the first instance when I first met it last two years ago. Abhidhamma has it strength in looking at dhamma with the anatta and anicca perspective which cannot be seen or match in any else in any Buddhist book that I have read. Its practicality is only known when we start using it. It is useless without practise bc it was meant for practise. Let me emphasis it again and again, Abhidamma is meant to help us to practise and not otherwise. I am one living example of the fruits of Abhidamma study that provide insight into many of my studies of Buddhist even though I have to admit that I study less than others. In fact I not an avid Abhidhamm studist (in fact I am quite lazy, I rely mostly on pple here to tell me). <...> k: Another impression of Abdhammaist study, is that its interpretations are sometimes very different from the mindset that we derived from our understanding through the study of sutta. I think it is natural, bc we always have our so called comfort arena. If those I find those not acceptable, I will just leave it while those acceptable, I learn it. Everyone of us here got our own liking of practise, .....<..> ***** M: > Second, are there other Abhidhammas from other Buddhist schools? In case yes, do they have exactly the same paramattha dhamma? In case no, do you know if there is a reason for only existing the Pali Abhidhamma? .... I think Howard has answered this and your other questions. Reading B.Bodhi’s comments in context, he’s clearly indicating the distinction between paramatha dhammas as opposed to conventional truths. The former do not depend on ‘conceptual processing’ but arise as a result of numerous conditions and have characteristics which can be directly known. Trust me, you can find some examples in the archives where I don’t agree with BB’s comments, especially when his comments diverge from the commentaries. In the example you gave however, in context, I agree with his point if not the particular choice of words. On the dating of the commentaries, BB writes in the intro: “....a great deal of the canonical Abhidhamma seems to require the Commentaries to contribute the unifying context in which the individual elements hang together as parts of a systematic whole and without which they lose important dimensions of meaning. It is thus not unreasonable to assume that a substantial portion of the commentarial apparatus originated in close proximity to the canonical Abhidhamma and was transmitted concurrently with the latter, though lacking the stamp of finality it was open to modification and amplification in a way that the canonical texts were not.” Metta, Sarah > PS: I will see what I can do about the pictures. Is there only one photo > album? Can you pls. provide the link:) .... Many thanks in advance - left hand side. member album: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup =================================== 27420 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:55am Subject: Re: Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: Michael: > I appreciate your analysis but don't feel that I am quite prepared to have a > deep debate about those philosophical differences. It is a very > controversial subject which could keep us busy for the rest of our lives. > And frankly I suspect the others in the list would have little interest as > well. I think the Abhidhamma devoid of any substantialist connotations is an > excellent tool. I prefer to discard the commentaries of the Abhidhamma that > focus on paramatha dhamma and sabhava and to side with Nyanaponika Thera in > his assessment of the Abhidhamma: Hi Michael, Though in my heart of hearts I would like the Abhidhamma to be phenomenological, since then it could be of some value to me, I don't see how it can be viewed that way. It contains endless lists and classifications of phenomena, most of which cannot be experienced first hand by the unenlightened, supposedly. It has to be taken on faith that they describe actual reality. Nyanatiloka Mahathera described it as "Ten valleys of dry bones." It is more like a pseudo- science textbook than a means to understand phenomena. Metta, James 27421 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:04am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Dear Sarah and James, > Thanks for your feedback on that post and thanks, too, to > James who also kindly responded. I spent hours, James, > (literally hours), on my response to your post but > couldn't sort my ideas out. With this reminder, I will > try again and post it ready or not. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Hi Ken H, Hmmm...you definitely have my attention now! ;-) And curiosity piqued. I eagerly await the post. Metta, James 27422 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 04 ) Dear Christine and Dhamma Friends, There have been many posts on the topic '' Mana ''. Here are my inline text replies to Christine's queries. May you all be free from Mana With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, (Nina) and all, > Thank you for your posts on 'Cetasikas as Designers and Helpers'. ----------------------------------------------------------- Christine : Sometimes the mention of cetasikas in posts to the Lists, or in Nina's book "Cetasikas", makes it seem to me as if they are descriptions of "strong" flavours in a mind moment. --------------------------------------------------- Htoo : I feel like that as you mentioned, Christine. They are different flavours of mind moments. But, if the word flavour is used for Cetasikas, this may show up Cetasikas are favourable tastes without which there will be tasteless. ---------------------------------------------------- >A while ago, I was surprised to be told that what I thought was >my 'good mannered' deferring to the superior knowledge of others in >a group, as compared to my own beginning understanding, was merely a >form of omaana (inferiority conceit). I learned that there existed >superiority conceit (atimaana) and equality conceit (maana) as well. ------------------------------------------------------- Christine : If 'comparing' is conceit, does this mean that any recognition of difference between self and other is conceit? ------------------------------------------------------- Htoo : I do not believe ' comparing ' is conceit. So '' any recognition of difference between self and other might not be '' conceit ''. ------------------------------------------------------------- > I think that it is easy to recognise dosa (anger) when it is strong > enough to kill or harm, but I wonder what are some very subtle > examples of dosa, lobha, and moha? ----------------------------------------------- Christine : And the purpose of learning about cetasikas - it's helping us to see the utter anatta-ness of everything? ... just checking .. ---------------------------------------------- Htoo : It is a good idea to check. Mana arises on its own when there are conditions. Comparison is just to classify Mana with different names. He is rich and I am poor. I don't have to mind him whatever he is rich or poor. I am standing on my own. ( omaana ) He is rich and I am rich. I don't mind him as I am as rich as he is. ( Maana ) He is poor and I am rich. I don't mind him as he is poor. He shouldn't talk to me directly. He should sit beside me. ( atimaana ) -------------------------------------------------------------------- > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- ------------------------------------------------------------ May you be free from suffering With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ------------------------------------------------------- > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" > wrote: > > Dear Dhamma Friends, > > > > After Permanent Ministers and Flexible Ministers ( Cetasikas ) have > > been described, here Destructive Ministers will be delineated. They > > destroy the place they home. They put the king Citta into an ugly > > portrait. > <<>> 27423 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi James, --- buddhatrue wrote: > I am not convinced by a commentary, written by ~Naa.namoli, ..... Just to clarify: the commentary was not written by ~Naa.namoli. It is the Paramatha-ma~njuusaa (Pm for short), the ancient commentary to the Visuddhimagga and considered as an authoritative text in the Theravada tradition. Extracts are included in notes on difficult lines. Nina is translating other extracts for the main Visuddhimagga thread too. James, no one has to accept these texts. If I have difficulty with a sutta or a different interpretation to others, my inclination is to consider what the ancient commentaries say, as I find a wealth of wisdom in them which is far more reliable than any of my own often misguided views. I don’t find anything illogical here, but I fully accept that you do and respect your comments in this regard. Metta, Sarah ====== 27424 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 04 ) Dear Thomas and all, Was Hitler a minister is my question to you. I am just using simile. Whatever ministers advise, the responsibility resides in the king, who is the head or the leader or the doer. Bad association brings bad things. Ajatasatta was already matured Satta. He was ripe to achieve Bodhi Nana. But as he was associated with Devadattha he did bad things and bad Kamma was brought on. He has been hell being since he left Ajatasatta's life. Lifespan of hell beings is limitless. But if he is released from hell, he will one day arise as Pacchekabuddha. Ajatasatta extremely beleived in The Buddha after he had killed his own father. Ajatasatta did all good things there after. He sponsered the first Buddhist Council. However he did all good things after his unforgivable sin of killing own father ( patricide ), this Kamma Anantariya Kamma brought him down to the hell Mahaavici which is the worst of all hell stations. This happened due to bad association. Asevaala Ca Baalanam, Panditaanam Ca Sevanaa With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing -------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Htoo Naing, > > I hope this is not a stupid question, do you think that Hitler, Dshinghis Khan etc. was such Destructives Ministers? > > Metta, > Thomas > > > htootintnaing wrote:Dear Dhamma Friends, > > After Permanent Ministers and Flexible Ministers ( Cetasikas ) have > been described, here Destructive Ministers will be delineated. They > destroy the place they home. They put the king Citta into an ugly > portrait. > > 1. Moha > > He is the leader for all Akusala Cetasikas.It is also > called '' Avijja '' that is the opposite of '' Vijja ''( Panna ). All > the destructive minds are led by him. It veils the real things and > the truth. So, Satta with it will never see real Dhamma. Instead it > leads to all the destructive actions. It veils Citta not to see the > truth. Then Moha-mounted Citta can do any bad thing with backing of > Moha. > > <.......> 27425 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Howard I think, judging from your comments below, that we have been talking at cross-purposes. Apologies if the mistake was on my part. Yes, the context of the discussion has been sati and panna with consciousness [i.e., with only consciousness] as object. As I understand it, any awareness/knowledge of 'seeing something' is not direct awareness/knowledge but is in fact inferred knowledge arrived at by thinking about immediately past moments of consciousness and its object (what you refer to as 'memory of an event'). I hope this clarifies things and helps makes my comments somewhat more comprehensible (please feel free to say so if not): http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27267 Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ------------------------------------------------------ > Howard: > There's always awareness only of its object. By "awareness" > here, do > you just mean vi~n~nana, or are you talking about sati or pa~n~na? > I assume you mean vi~n~nana. > ---------------------------------------------------- 27426 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Herman I know what you mean when you speak about the Buddha's example. However, this raises an interesting question: should we look primarily to the Buddha's example, or should we pay more attention to what he had to say about how he got to where he did, or how we can achieve (in part) what he has experienced? A person wishing to attain to the status, wealth or ability of another will not get far by trying to emulate that other person's actions as a person of status, wealth or ability. It is the means by which that person got where he did that will need to be known and applied. BTW, you say the Buddha preferred silence to speech; nonetheless, he spent an awful lot of time expounding the teachings to others, and urging those others to listen more. He must have thought such talking and listening to be worthwhile. Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > There is no need to reject the suttas. They are stories, and > understanding that they are stories is enough. There is no > hierarchy > amongst stories. There are no "good" stories and "bad" stories, > or "true" stories and "false" stories. They do not have a life of > their own. There is no need to pass judgment on stories. A story , > any story, becomes unravelled with awareness. > > Awareness does not need expounding. It does not need clarification. > > It does not need thinking about. Commentaries to awareness do one > thing, and that is to kill it. > > I need not learn to speak English, Bantu, or Pali, in order to be > silent. The stories of the Buddha that I have read tell me that he > preferred silence to speech, inertness to activity. > > Silence requires no conceptual framework. Neither does knowing. > Knowing arises when it does, and ceases when it does. 27427 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhaghosa(Suan): To Robert and Michael Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > > > I am not convinced by a commentary, written by ~Naa.namoli, > ..... > Just to clarify: the commentary was not written by ~Naa.namoli. James: Oh, sorry. I had a feeling that was wrong when I typed it but I had a hard time figuring out what you were referring to and who wrote it by how you cited the source. The only thing I could tell for sure is that Buddhaghosa didn't write it. ;-) It is the > Paramatha-ma~njuusaa (Pm for short), the ancient commentary to the > Visuddhimagga and considered as an authoritative text in the Theravada > tradition. James: It seems like human nature to consider anything 'ancient' as 'authoritative'. That is a flawed view I try to avoid. Ancient or modern, everything should be evaluated on its own merits. Extracts are included in notes on difficult lines. Nina is > translating other extracts for the main Visuddhimagga thread too. > > James, no one has to accept these texts. If I have difficulty with a sutta > or a different interpretation to others, my inclination is to consider > what the ancient commentaries say, James: I don't have that inclination too much. I just consider that my understanding isn't such that I can understand that sutta, and leave it at that. Maybe later I will understand it. Reading notes that someone else has written to explain difficult parts will only lead me to believe I know something when I really don't...then I will be a double fool. It has to come from within. From what I have seen of the commentaries, quoted in this group, they usually go way too far to explain things. It would be best to avoid them altogether. That is how I see it. as I find a wealth of wisdom in them > which is far more reliable than any of my own often misguided views. James: How do you know your views are misguided? Simply because they don't match what is in the commentaries? At some point you have to think for yourself; might as well do that from the start. I > don't find anything illogical here, but I fully accept that you do and > respect your comments in this regard. James: I didn't find the commentary illogical per se, I just think that it is assuming far too much and not looking at the full context of that particular phrase. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== Metta, James ps. Does this mean we are done discussing this subject??? ;-) 27428 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:10am Subject: Re: Sabhava, Paramattha, Abhidhamma (was: Buddhaghosa..) Hi Micheal, Thanks for taking this point of essentialism in Abdhidhamma and interesting what does Abdhidhamma mean by Ultimate reality has intrinsic nature. I am also confounded by this perculiar characteristic bc this mean that Abdhidhamma is a substantialist, and this is contrary to what Buddha taught especially if one look at this link - the Foam Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095.html However I like to explain in my own context after reading what Larry provided on the definition of Sabhava. If I am not wrong what Abdhidhamma means intrinsic nature is that it is a nature that is elememtary (Hmm a bit hard to explain). For eg a fire is hot and there is no two word about it. A unpleasant feeling is an unpleasant feeling. We cannot say it is not. This is what I think Abdhidhamma meant about intrinsic nature. Share with me what you think about this explanation. Point out your difference, your views bc any substanlism or essentialism is a no-no in Buddhism. Let us explore this together. kind regards Ken O 27429 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi again, Nina - A bit more about anger as taking an object. You wrote the following: > Anger is angry, it is an experience. What does it experience? Not nothing, > an object. The object of anger, whatever it may be, an unpleasant sound, or > an event, a story. Anger is not rupa which does not experience anything. ========================== Anger does not experience something - it is a reaction to experiencing something. Anger is always in *reaction* to some event or events (most often thoughts), but none of these events is the object of the anger in the sense in which it is the object of consciousness - it is merely a triggering condition for the arising of the anger, the underlying cause being far more complex. In fact, it is very frequently the case that the mind is suffused with anger without any particular event having recently occurred that is "the object" of that anger in any sense, the anger having been conditioned by a host of events often well in the past which left an inclination to anger that can be triggered by many passing phenomena. In addition, one moment of anger, together with a perverse feeling of enjoyment with regard to that anger can lead to continued experiencing of anger, but the prior anger, while conditioning the subsequent anger is not an object for it in any sense. I think the carte blanche taking of emotions as namas which "know" objects is mistaken. As I see it, the knowing relation is a very specific kind of relation, and not all mental phenomena bear that relation to other phenomena. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27430 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/27/03 1:02:27 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > > I see this matter differently. On the one hand there is > >"Luminous,monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming > defilements," and on the other hand there is "Luminous, monks, is > the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." Whether covered > by adventitious defilements (as a blackboard is covered by chalk > dust or a mirror by dust), or whether it is not so covered, luminous > is the mind. The point here, as I see it, is that the defilements do > not inhere in the mind as essential characteristics. The mind is > luminous one way or the other, and "development" is actually a > process of removal, of sweeping away the dust of defilements, > leaving the already pure mirror-mind to properly reflect reality. > When there is gold ore, the base metals are the base metals, and the > gold is the gold, and the process of obtaining gold from the ore is a > process of removing the adventitious metals, leaving the gold to be > seen as it actually is and was. > > k: Howard: This position looks like the position that the mind is > originally pure which sounds like an essentialism perspective. > Bhavanga citta is more appropriate bc it is impermenant and anatta > and it reduce the possiblility of an essentialism perspective. > Furthermore in Abdhidhamma thought process - bhavanga citta is the > start of a sense process, hence it will be either be defile or not. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Read the sutta, Ken. It is crystal clear - it speaks for itself. (Go "argue" with the Buddha, not with me! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > I also see no reason whatsoever to interpret "Luminous, > >monks, is the mind" as referring to a particular type of > mindstate, especially one that was never taught by the Buddha in any > discourse. There is nothing in the sutta to even hint at such a > meaning. > > k: Yes you are right, you cant find this in any sutta. As I explain > earlier to you, there is no way Abdhidhamma going to find concrete > material proof for its existence in the Sutta except for inference to > it. > > > rgds > Ken O > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27431 From: ashkenn2k Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:23am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Howard > --------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Read the sutta, Ken. It is crystal clear - it speaks for itself. (Go "argue" with the Buddha, not with me! ;-) > ---------------------------------------------------- k: If Buddha is here, we will have not discussed anything at all, we just ask him, make life easier for everyone :). Gosh sometimes I wish he was here. Yes it is clear but luminious is the mind if interpreted by non-commentarial input will mean there is an underlying pure mind. If you think otherwise, pse kindly comment. Will you think Buddha, will make such a position, if we interpolate with many other suttas where he keep insisting on impermanence and anatta. kind regards Ken O 27432 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:27am Subject: The last word? (was Buddhaghosa.....) Hi James, A few further explanations (don’t groan;-)). --- buddhatrue wrote: > James: It seems like human nature to consider anything 'ancient' > as 'authoritative'. That is a flawed view I try to avoid. Ancient > or modern, everything should be evaluated on its own merits. ..... I’m usually very uninterested in ancient things - quite hopeless in museums for example. What I was indicating here was that the ‘ancient’ as opposed to modern commentaries have been handed down by the Sangha and accepted as representing the ‘Word of the Buddha’. Whether one will accept any part of the Tipitaka, including the suttas, as representing the ‘Truth’ to be known will depend on whether there is enough confidence in the validity of what one reads or hears to accept this. Obviously for members on this list, there has been a sufficient ‘click’ to accept at least the suttas, including those we find difficult to follow. Like you, if I read one that isn’t clear, it’s seldom a problem for me to leave it aside. In my case, exactly the same applies to the Abhidhamma and commentaries. I feel very fortunate to have access to parts of these, to be able to appreciate them as much as I do and to share a little here and read others doing the same. It doesn’t bother me at all if other friends don’t feel the same way. I was never in the slightest bit concerned about when they were written and so on, because it was the Abhidhamma and commentaries which really made the Tipitaka ‘click’ for me, especially in regard to the teaching on anatta and conditioned dhammas. Different interests and accumulations. I think the Visuddhimagga was the first text I bought, closely followed by the Atthasalini, the commentary to the first book of the Abhidhamma. I’d never heard of Buddhaghosa but found so many answers to questions I had;-) ..... > James: I don't have that inclination too much. I just consider that > my understanding isn't such that I can understand that sutta, and > leave it at that. Maybe later I will understand it. Reading notes > that someone else has written to explain difficult parts will only > lead me to believe I know something when I really don't...then I will > be a double fool. It has to come from within. .... I agree with most of this. I especially agree that one has to be very honest about what is known and not known. This was discussed under sacca parami - the perfection of truth. Believing one knows something one doesn’t is delusion. Whilst on my own I’d just leave a sutta or abhidhamma point aside if it wasn’t clear, in a discussion forum, someone else might refer to a sutta in a way which doesn’t resonate with how I see it. Sometimes it might be helpful to give an explanation from the commentary or the Abhidhamma to consider further. There are no rules. It may surprise you to know that I’ve never been a big reader of the texts. I just read a few lines here and there, nearly always in response to comments or opinions. I think the careful considering and reflecting on what’s been read is most important. ..... >From what I have seen > of the commentaries, quoted in this group, they usually go way too > far to explain things. It would be best to avoid them altogether. > That is how I see it. ..... Just keep an open mind, James. Like now, there’s seeing and thinking, like and dislike, hardness being experienced as one taps the keyboard and so on. Different elements, heat, cold and so on. It doesnt’t matter if one hears about them from a friend, in a sutta or a commentary. The truth can be tested out. As Ken O said, no need to get hung up on words like ‘sabhava’. Just as you’ve implied, it’s one’s ‘own’ understanding that counts. .... > James: How do you know your views are misguided? Simply because they > don't match what is in the commentaries? At some point you have to > think for yourself; might as well do that from the start. ..... I mostly agree with this. We read about how right understanding has to know the nature of wrong views. Indeed it has to know all realities, good and bad. Misguided views can be particularly devious - they always think they’re right. Unless we’re a sotapanna, they are bound to arise and as others like Jon have said many times, one’s own thinking can be a notoriously unreliable guide. You read the suttas because you find they’re a helpful influence. I also find the same with texts like the Visuddhimagga. No rule. ..... > ps. Does this mean we are done discussing this subject??? ;-) ...... Your call ;-) Every time I think we’re done, you pop back;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27433 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Howard and Nina, Regarding the difference between being angry and observing anger, I think they are both objective in that anger is the object of consciousness but in observing anger the consciousness is accompanied by understanding (pa~n~na). Furthermore, being angry is already past tense. Anger arose with consciousness and then immediately after it ceased it became the object of consciousness. I think this has a tendency to perpetuate itself when, being angry, the consciousness is also accompanied by anger. So, in effect, we are angry at being angry. We can be consciousness of this also, either with or without understanding. Larry 27434 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/27/03 11:25:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > > >--------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Read the sutta, Ken. It is crystal clear - it speaks for > itself. (Go "argue" with the Buddha, not with me! ;-) > >---------------------------------------------------- > > k: If Buddha is here, we will have not discussed anything at all, we > just ask him, make life easier for everyone :). Gosh sometimes I wish > he was here. Yes it is clear but luminious is the mind if > interpreted by non-commentarial input will mean there is an > underlying pure mind. If you think otherwise, pse kindly comment. > Will you think Buddha, will make such a position, if we interpolate > with many other suttas where he keep insisting on impermanence and > anatta. > > kind regards > Ken O > ============================== If the defilements were intrinsic to the mind, release would be impossible. If the chalk were not covering the blackboard, but were part of the blackboard, there would be no cleaning off of the chalk. If the dust were not just resting upon the surface of the glass, but were an essential part of it, there would be no cleaning of the mirror. The defilements are not intrinsic to the mind, and that is why the mind is luminous, both in the arahant and in the worldling - and that is why the task of liberation is not hopeless. When one doesn't accept the clear and plain meaning of a sutta, but looks for obscure interpretations, that generally suggests an inclination to justify one's preferences, a tendency we all have. With metta, Howard With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27435 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/27/03 11:33:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > I think this has a tendency to > perpetuate itself when, being angry, the consciousness is also > accompanied by anger. So, in effect, we are angry at being angry. ========================== This can happen, but more often anger is perpetuated because we are "grooving" on that anger, getting a self-righteous or other sort ofperverse kick out of it! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27436 From: Htoo Naing Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:42am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 02 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Sattas who have attained Arahatta Magga are READY to get through the Samsara. We have lived many many lives, infinite lives. These lives are on the wheel of Lives that is also called Samsara. The wheel is rotating without any interruption. This means that life after life is going on endlessly. If this phenomenon is not recognized, the wheel will be rotating as long as lives exist. Lives have to exist as Kamma dictates. Kamma have to arise, as KAMMA SEEDS are being cultivated. Sattas are cultivating Kamma as they do NOT REALIZE the realities. Realities are realities and they are always true in ultimate sense. These ultimate realities are CITTA , CETASIKA, RUPA, and NIBBANA. CITTA is an ultimate reality. It is the nature that is aware of object or Arammana. It is conscious to sense or object or Arammana. Basing on this character, there is only one Citta. According to its character, it just knows the Arammana. So it is primarily pure, innocent, radiant and luminous. Cittas are in the first group of ultimate realities. However, Citta never arises in isolation but arises with other associated mental factors called CETASIKAS. It is these Cetasikas that give Citta different names. Depending on what Cetasikas accompany, there are 89 Cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Cetasikas are included in the second group of ultimate realities. There are 52 Cetasikas and each has their specific typical character. All 52 Cetasikas have general characters as well. Each Citta and each Cetasika will be delineated in the coming posts. The third group of ultimate realities is RUPA . Rupa are bases. Rupa base for Nama Dhamma both Citta and Cetasika. Rupa also base for Rupa. Rupa have their own characters. Characteristic of Rupa is its changeability. Rupa are subjected to change and they are influenced by Kamma, Citta, Utu, and Ahara. Each of Rupa, Kamma, Utu, Ahara, interactions of Rupa and their four causes will be discussed in the coming posts. The fourth group of ultimate realities is NIBBANA . Nibbana is an absolute peace as all kinds of fire have been extinguished. These kinds of fire are shaping and forming the existing events, happenings and situations. Fire are mental conditioners or Cetasikas. As conditioned, different kinds of Citta has to arise. Kamma have to arise in connection with Citta. Arisen Rupa are further conditioned by Utu and Ahara. And new and new Rupa have to grow in quantity and they proliferate infinitely and endlessly. While fire extinguish, and as sources are no more available, no new Nama ( Citta and Cetasikas ) and no new Rupa arise. As there is no Sankhata Dhatu of Nama and Rupa, the Asankhata Dhatu Nibbana is absolute peace and it is not to be compared with Sankhata Dhatu of Citta, Cetasika, and Rupa. This is the fourth group of ultimate realities Nibbana. Nibbana will be discussed in due course. Sattas are growing Kamma as they do not realize these four ultimate realities. To realize these realities, penetrative wisdom Magga Nana is needed. Here I would like to introduce another Dhamma which is not an ultimate reality but essential to convey the meaning of all realities. It serves as a ' vehicle ' and it is called PANNATTA. Panatta is needed to bring up the necessary information. To do the complete work, Panatta is put into a section and conventional truths are laid down through Panatta so that the complete sense of Satta Loka, Okasa Loka, and Sankhara Lokacan can fully be realized. Panatta will also appear in the coming posts in due course. So far a good summary of Dhamma has been introduced. Before approaching ' how to get through the Samsara ' , it is necessary to understand the Samsara. As mentioned above the Samsara is nothing but the rotating wheel of lives that is arising of life after life without any interruption. In the conventional sense, life has to be defined again. A life is an existence which starts with Patisandhi Citta, persists throughout the lifespan and ends with the end of Cuti Citta. The whole series Patisandhi, Bhavangha ( alternate with Vithi Citta if there is a sense to respond ) , Cuti Citta and associated Cetasikas and Rupa constitute a life. The whole life again is refered to as a Satta in conventional sense. Depending in the characters that constitute a Satta, there are different Sattas. Where they arise is known as Bhumi or plane of existence. Sattas are groupped and according to character of the group, there are 31 plane of existence or Bhumis. Bearing the conventional sense in mind, there is no Satta that does not include in any of 31 Bhumis. There is no extra Bhumi apart from 31 planes of existence. There is no temporary Bhumi or resting Bhumi or resting state for Sattas. This means that any given Satta has to be exactly a member of one of 31 Bhumis. These Bhumis will be discussed in the coming posts. Where are we now ? We are exactly in human realm. Each is rushing through Bhavangha ( Vithi Cittas arise if there arises a sense to respond ) as Patisandhi has arisen. And each of us will end in this very life with Cuti Citta, which again will immediately be followed by next Patisandhi Citta as long as we have not attained Arahatta Magga. Now we know the point where we are. The destination of the Samsara is still unpredictable as the wheel is still rotating. But what can be seen as destination may be one of two options. One of them isNibbana through the gate Cuti Citta of Arahat. Nibbana is not simply annihilation but full of sense and as mentioned above, will appear in the coming posts. Another option as destination is endlessly rotating the wheel of lives. As long as Sattas are growing Kamma, the wheel will be rotating endlessly. It is the readers choice whether to choose Nibbana as their destination or to be in the state of rotating in the wheel of lives as their destination. If they choose the wheel of lives as their ndestination '' How To Get Through The Samsara '' is no more needed to read up. For those who choose Nibbana as their destination will need to learn Dhamma that help get through the Samsara. May all beings get through the Samsara in the shortest way With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing ( htootintnaing@y... ) Moderator journeyToNibbana Yahoo Group 27437 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Larry: "I think this has a tendency to perpetuate itself when, being angry, the consciousness is also accompanied by anger. So, in effect, we are angry at being angry." ========================== Howard: "This can happen, but more often anger is perpetuated because we are "grooving" on that anger, getting a self-righteous or other sort of perverse kick out of it!" Hi Howard, Good call. Can you detect the various elements of this self-righteous kick? I would think pleasant mental feeling would be one. Larry 27438 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/27/03 11:53:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "This can happen [anger at anger], but more often anger is > perpetuated > because we are "grooving" on that anger, getting a self-righteous or > other sort of perverse kick out of it!" > > Hi Howard, > > Good call. Can you detect the various elements of this self-righteous > kick? I would think pleasant mental feeling would be one. > > Larry > ============================ I can detect some. For sure pleasant feeling is one of them. Ego is a major one - conceit in the technical sense and in the common meaning of the term. Moral outrage in a decent sense is often one. Another may be excitement, which affords an unwholesome escape from boredom. There is a panoply of factors involved, I think. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27439 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:08am Subject: anapanasati 3 b anapanasati 3 b The Vis. quotes from the Path of Discrimination with regard to the experience of happiness with non-confusion: In a similar way the words of the second tetrad are explained by the Visuddhimagga: (VI) I shall breathe inŠbreathe out experiencing bliss (sukha, pleasant feeling)Š Sukha occurs in three stages of jhåna (of the fourfold system); it does not arise in the highest stage of jhåna where there is equanimity instead of sukha. Sukha accompanies the jhånacitta of the three stages of jhåna and is, after the jhånacitta has fallen away, realized by paññå as impermanent. The realization of the characteristic of impermanence can only occur when the stages of insight knowledge have been developed, beginning with tender insight, as I said before. Thus both jhana and insight have been developed here. As to VI amd VII, experiencing mental formation, citta sankhara, and tranquillizing mental formation: the Vis. VIII, 229, explains that mental formation pertains here to feeling and perception, sanna. The feeling is associated with perception (Vis. VIII, 230). The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: ***** Nina. 27440 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Howard, I can't get on-line with my other computer today because of a server problem at MSN and I'm still annoyed. I think what is perpetuating the anger (the "groove") is desire for something that isn't going to happen. Moments of self-righteousness arise occasionally but the driving force behind the anger is just this desire that isn't being fulfilled. When I try to identify the precise experience of desire itself, I can't really find it. Locating a mental object is not so easy. Larry 27441 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 3 b The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: Hi Nina, I wonder if we could say perception (sanna) is identification? Larry 27442 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken, KenO: we can only be mindful of a pain only after the pain is experience (i.e. since only one object at a time is being cognize, therefore mindfullness is only possible after it has happened as it is another object) Michael: I probably know less of the Abhidhamma than you but my understanding it slightly different. There are sense door processes and mind door processes. When you say a pain is experienced I see that as a sense door process. The way you describe it seems that after taking the pain as an object, mindfulness is taken as an object. I don’t see it that way. Mindfulness is not an object but a cetasika which is always present in wholesome states. Therefore after the sense door process has finished (the pain), one or many mind door processes follow, if mindfulness is present as a factor, that citta will be wholesome. The mind door process does not require a rupa. Howard: In this sense, the whole spectrum of consciouness, we must be mindful - then there is a development of the mind. You said there is no reference in Satipatthana on this, isn't bhavanga citta also a consciousness. Michael: Bhavanga is not mentioned in the suttas, it is a creation of the commentaries. I still find it hard to imagine how to become aware of bahavanga. Metta Michael 27443 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/27/03 1:12:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I can't get on-line with my other computer today because of a server > problem at MSN and I'm still annoyed. I think what is perpetuating the > anger (the "groove") is desire for something that isn't going to happen. > Moments of self-righteousness arise occasionally but the driving force > behind the anger is just this desire that isn't being fulfilled. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Sure. So called self-righteous anger is just one kind. Also, the *thought* of not being able to get on-line keeps repeating, and each repetition spurs further displeasure and anger. BTW, have you ever noticed how, ironically, an unpleasant thought, which one would expect to wish to avoid, keeps on appearing almost as if it were something desirable?!! ;-) We are complex beings, we worldlings! (To speak conventionally.) ------------------------------------------------ When I> > try to identify the precise experience of desire itself, I can't really > find it. Locating a mental object is not so easy. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Mmm, depends on what you mean. The desire doesn't wait around for us to grasp it - that's for sure. But don't you know when you want something? So, you know when there is desire, but don't always know its genesis. ------------------------------------------------ > > Larry > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27444 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > > In a message dated 11/27/03 11:25:12 AM Eastern Standard Time, > ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > > Hi Howard > > > > > > >--------------------------------------------------- > > >Howard: > > > Read the sutta, Ken. It is crystal clear - it speaks for > > itself. (Go "argue" with the Buddha, not with me! ;-) > > >---------------------------------------------------- > > > > k: If Buddha is here, we will have not discussed anything at all, we > > just ask him, make life easier for everyone :). Gosh sometimes I wish > > he was here. Yes it is clear but luminious is the mind if > > interpreted by non-commentarial input will mean there is an > > underlying pure mind. If you think otherwise, pse kindly comment. > > Will you think Buddha, will make such a position, if we interpolate > > with many other suttas where he keep insisting on impermanence and > > anatta. > > > > kind regards > > Ken O > > > ============================== > If the defilements were intrinsic to the mind, release would be > impossible. If the chalk were not covering the blackboard, but were part of the > blackboard, there would be no cleaning off of the chalk. If the dust were not just > resting upon the surface of the glass, but were an essential part of it, > there would be no cleaning of the mirror. The defilements are not intrinsic to the > mind, and that is why the mind is luminous, both in the arahant and in the > worldling - and that is why the task of liberation is not hopeless. > When one doesn't accept the clear and plain meaning of a sutta, but > looks for obscure interpretations, that generally suggests an inclination to > justify one's preferences, a tendency we all have. > > With metta, > Howard > Hi Howard, I completely agree with you. The mind is originally luminous and defilements are not an intrinsic part of the mind, they are like dirt or a film covering the mind which must be removed. Rather than continuing to examine that one sutta, here is another sutta in support, AN, IV 50 "Defilements of Ascetics": "There are, O monks, these four defilements of the sun and moon, defiled by which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze and radiate. What four? Clouds are a defilement of the sun and moon…Snow is a defilement of the sun and moon…Smoke and dust is a defilement of the sun and moon… Rahu lord of the asuras* is a defilement of the sun and moon. …These are the four defilements of the sun and moon, defiled by which the sun and moon do not shine, blaze and radiate. Similarly, monks, there are four defilements of ascetics and Brahmins, defiled by which some ascetics and Brahmins do not shine, blaze and radiate. What four? There are, monks, some ascetics and Brahmins who drink wine and liquor, who do not abstain from drinking wine and liquor. This is the first defilement of ascetics and Brahmins, defiled by which some ascetics and Brahmins do not shine, blaze and radiate. Then there are some ascetics and Brahmins who indulge in sexual intercourse,… Then there are some ascetics and Brahmins who accept gold and silver,… Then there are some ascetics and Brahmins who earn their living by wrong livelihood,… These, monks, are the four defilements of ascetics and Brahmins, defiled by which some ascetics and Brahmins do not shine, blaze and radiate." *Rahu is an asura king dwelling in the sky who periodically abducts the moon and the sun. The myth represents the ancient Indian interpretation of the solar and lunar eclipse. Now, even though this sutta doesn't state `mind' specifically, I think it can be inferred. Surely the Buddha didn't mean that some ascetics and Brahmins have bodies that light up like a light bulb! ;- ) He is referring to the quality of their minds. Each of the defilements, which are actions that come about through greed, lust, and craving in the mind, are described as something that covers the original luminosity of the mind. It isn't a part of it. At least that is how I view this sutta. Metta, James 27445 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah, Sarah: I’ll sign off and add the most recent letter on this topic which Nina sent to Icaro, quoting some of my comments Michael: Your links were extremely useful. It brought to light some aspects I was unaware. Tks for the trouble in sending all those interesting links. Sarah: I’m also happy to continue discussing the luminous thread. Michael: I think it is better to quit for now. I am still siding with the comments by Thanissaro but think it is not worthwhile pursuing it further. Tks anyway. Metta 27446 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:18pm Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 05 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As described in previous post, Cetasikas have much effect on actions of Citta. Here are more about Cetasikas. Constructive Ministers as I named them, there are altogether 25 Cetasikas working as Constructive Ministers. These 25 Cetasikas are called Sobhana Cetasikas or beautiful Cetasikas. Among them the first 19 Cetasikas are called Kusalacittasadarana Cetasikas. They always arise with any Kusala Citta. 1.Saddha ( Confidence, faith, belief ) He makes the king Citta believes in The Buddha, The Sangha,The Dhamma, Paticcasamuppada and the practice. This belief is not a blind faith but there is a strong reason for this. There is evidence for total belief. It is like confidence. When Saddha arises Citta and all other Cetasikas become clean, clean, active, alert, calm. When Ruby is put in a muddy water, the water becomes clean and clear and radiant with the light of Ruby. 2.Sati ( mindfulness ) He makes the king Citta watches thing actively and makes mindful.So Citta remembers to do things in due course. In the presence of Sati Citta can work according to its will as Sati reminds him to remember things to do. Sati is also an active Cetasika like Saddha. It serves as a watcher. It serves as a reminder. Sati also helps other Cetasikas to remember to do their jobs. 3. Hirika ( shamefulness ) This Constructive Minister hinders the king Citta not to do bad things as doing so probably will face with disgraceful situation. In the presence of Hirika, as it reminds to consider the consequence of the actions, the king Citta will not do bad things. This Cetasika is something like inhibition. It always works with Ottappa. 4. Ottappa ( fearfulness ) this Cetasika makes Citta unwilling to do bad things as doing so will have negative effect and Citta is fearful of that result. This Cetasika like Hirika looks the possible consequences of the actions. And it is frightened by the possible result. So in its presence Citta will not do bad things. It is also a kind of inhibition. But characterwise it is more in the favour of fear than shame. Together with Hirika these two Cetasikas guard the world in the favourable social conditions. Man and woman are attracted to each other and finally lead to sex. But Hirika and Ottappa hinder unnecessary events. The relationship between father and daughter, mother and son, brother and sister, married person and unmarried person etc etc are supported by Hirika and Ottappa so that socially unfavourable things do not happen. These Cetasikas are Loka Pala Dhamma. 5.Alobha ( unattachment, detachment, unbinding, Dana) This Constructive Minister makes the king Citta willing to offer things to Sattas as Citta becomes unattached to those things when Alobha advises him. Alobha is more than unattachment or detachment. It looks directly at receiver as Satta and directs to him. At the same time it no more has likeness to its assumed own properties as his properties. Detach to properties and bend toward to receiver and there is unperceivable flow of energy to the receiver. It works with other 19 Cetasikas especially with Saddha. 6. Adosa ( Metta , loving kindness, unhurting ) This Cetasika advises Citta in order to exert Metta on Sattas. It has non-destructive effect. It urges Citta to have a good moral. In the presence of Adosa, others' well being is always considered. This comprises physical, emotional, psychological and all aspects of other Sattas. Its character is unhurting in nature. It is true friendship. Adosa arise when thinking of others like parents, brothers and sisters, friends, hasbands, wives and any one who are in favour of his or her. Unlike Lobha, Adosa does not have unreleasing binding tying effect. It is real loving kindness. 7. Tatramajjatata ( Balance, Upekkha ) It equalises the strength of all accompanying cetasikas and so it advises Citta as well to work in a state of equilibrium that means it works without extremeness. This Cetasika is like a charioteer. When two horses are drawing the cart, they have to draw equally in terms of strength. Otherwise, the desired direction will never reach. This Cetasika arises in balancing mind. It may be assumed as Upekkha. But it is an active Cetasika. It is not ignorance. It focuses on Dhamma and makes a good balance so that the target direction are being approached. 8.Kayapassaddhi ( coolness or calmness or tranquility of Cetasika ) It has soothing effect on Cetasikas. It calms down mind and causes Cetasikas free from all worries. In its presence all other Cetasikas that accompany it and Citta become well tranquilized and calm. This tranquility helps Kusala Citta to arise and help doing Kusala actions. 9. Cittapassaddhi ( coolness or calmness or tranquility of Citta ) It has soothing effect on Citta. It calms down mind as well and causes Citta free from all worries. When Cittapassaddhi arises Kayapassaddhi also arises. These two Cetasika always arise together and all other Sabbakusalasadarana Cetasikas also arise together. 10. Kayalahuta ( lightness of Cetasikas ) It causes Cetasikas ready to function well. It is lightness of Cetasikas and its presence help Cetasika light and ready to respond according to their functions. 11. Cittalahuta ( Lightness of Citta ) It causes Citta ready to function well. It arises with Kayalahuta Cetasika and other Kusala Cetasikas also arise together. The pair Kayalahuta and Cittalahuta can well be noticed in the mind when people are doing a good deed. 12. Kayamuduta ( tenderness or pliancy of Cetasikas) It causes all Cetasikas to be tender and gentle. it is pliable and flexible formable according to the situation. This Cetasika can also be noticed in the mind of people who are doing meritorious deed. 13. Cittamuduta ( tenderness or pliancy of citta ) It causes Citta to be tender and gentle. And Citta becomes pliable in the presence of this Cetasika. Cittamuduta arises together with Kayamuduta. 14. Kayakammannata ( adaptability or wieldiness of Cetasikas ) It helps Cetasika adapted to other Cetasikas and agree with other Cetasika. It stabilizes existing Cetasikas. 15. Cittakammannata ( adaptability or wieldiness of Citta ) It arises together with Kayakammannata Cetasika but its main function is on Citta. Along with other good Cetasikas these two Cetasika work well in favour of adaptation and stabilization. 16.Kayapagunnata ( proficiency of Cetasikas ) It causes proper functioning of Cetasikas. It helps Cetasikas work proficiently at their specific duty. So Cetasikas work appropriately in its presence. 17. Cittapagunnata ( proficiency of Citta ) It causes proper functioning of Citta. It arises together with Kayapagunnata Cetasika but its main function is focused at Citta. Both work with other good Cetasikas or beautiful Cetasikas. 18. Kayujukata ( rectitude or uprightness of Cetasikas ) It makes all Cetasikas sincere. In its presence all Cetasika works in righteous manner. They all become sincere and honest and functions are rectified. 19. Cittujukata ( rectitude or uprightness of Citta ) It makes Citta sincere. This Cetasika arises together with Kayujukata Cetasika. This pair makes Nama Dhamma work straight forward. But Cittujukata's main function is on Citta. These 19 Cetasikas always arise together in all Kusala Citta. May you all breed these Cetasikas in your inner environment. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27447 From: Sarah Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael & Ken O, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > Bhavanga is not mentioned in the suttas, it is a creation of the > commentaries. I still find it hard to imagine how to become aware of > bahavanga. ..... Whenever there's any reference to awareness or insight in the texts, i.e. satipatthana, the object is always any object that appears. Any nama or rupa depending on conditions, no selection. So in this sutta, it doesn't mean 'it must be bhavanga citta' (though it may be for some with developed panna). We always need to keep an understanding of satipatthana in mind when reading any of the texts, I think. Metta, Sarah ======= 27448 From: mlnease Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael (et al.), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello Sarah, Thomas and all, > > Sarah: > I don't think there is any mention of us having the `buddha- nature' in the > Tipitaka and Pali commentaries, Thomas. Also, the idea of clearing the > defiled mind to find the [hidden] pure mind is contradictory to what we > read and understand about impermanence and conditioned changing realities. Agreed... > Michael > > The Pabhassara Sutta ( AN I.49-52) can probably shed some light on this > discussion. In this sutta we read: > > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements." > "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." > > The first statement seems to imply that the mind is naturally pure while the > second seems to imply that the mind is naturally defiled. The mind has to be > pure in order to be defiled and by the same token it has to be defiled in > order to be purified. If the mind were totally pure (or in other words > already had a "Buddha-nature") it would not have to be purified and if it > were totally defiled it would not have to be defiled again. > > So, how to solve this puzzle? It seems to me to be a puzzle only if I assume that mind (citta) is a lasting thing. Citta, as I understand it, is 'colored' instantaneously by its attendant factors which vanish as rapidly as does citta. Purity and impurity arise and subside with mind in an instant, I think. p.s. Nice to meet you... mike 27449 From: Larry Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Howard: "don't you know when you want something?" Hi Howard, Yes I do, but making the desire itself an object of consciousness is very elusive. Mostly what I notice is associated bodily feeling and concept. Larry btw, I got connected and now I am happy. What's that??? 27450 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:59pm Subject: Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature > Hmmm...you definitely have my attention now! ;-) And > curiosity piqued. I eagerly await the post. > Metta, James Hi James, We were discussing whether there is such a thing as intrinsic essence (sabhava). After hearing the Buddha's explanation of paramattha dhammas, I think yes, some things (nama and rupa), do ultimately exist. You take the view that the whole question is irrelevant. The sutta you quoted had me confused. At first, I assumed it was contrasting the wrong views of the two extremes with the right view of the middle way. So I concluded that you were on the wrong track when you quoted it an authority for the irrelevance of existence. After explaining all this in my usual, plodding way, I finally realised that this sutta was different. Unlike the others I was thinking of, it doesn't describe the extremes in terms of wrong views: "Do I exist? Do I not exist? Do I do both? Neither?" -- that sort of thing. This sutta asks about the existence of 'everything.' To me, 'everything' sounds like 'loka' (the world, the universe). Whenever the Buddha was asked, 'what is the loka,' he explained it could be any of six worlds; the world of eye, eye object, eye consciousness, eye contact, eye feeling; or the world of ear, ear object, . . and so on. So, it seems you were right, this sutta is asking if the things the Buddha taught (eye, eye object etc.,), really exist and if so, in what way. As we have discussed before, I need expert help before I can interpret a sutta with any confidence. What are we to make of the way the Buddha answered the questions? He wasn't interested in discussing the four forms of cosmology but; "Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. . . ." So it seems that the notion "dhammas exist," is one of the extreme (non-middle), beliefs. Call me stubborn if you like, but I still think it is correct to say that dhammas exist absolutely (have their own sabhava). After all, we have that sutta quoted by RobertK where the Buddha specifically agrees with the view that dhammas exist. I think, in your sutta, the Buddha is taking intellectual understanding a step closer towards direct understanding: When a dhamma is directly known, there is no concept of its existence (sabhava), there is only sabhava itself. As Ken O has just been saying to Michael: "a fire is hot and there is no two words about it." (Everyone's quoting Ken O lately:-) So this sutta does not change the fact that paramattha dhammas are absolutely real. But we have to remember that direct understanding (satipatthana, the teaching of the Buddha), is completely different from intellectual understanding. After right intellectual understanding has been reached, there has to be a willingness to let go of it and to allow a completely new, direct, way of knowing the world to take its place. That's when existence/non-existence becomes irrelevant. Thanks for quoting that sutta; do you agree that acceptance of sabhava is, at least, a necessary first step? Kind regards, Ken H In support allow me to quote > the Lokayatika Sutta: > > Staying at Savatthi. Then a brahman cosmologist [1] went to the > Blessed One and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. > After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one > side. As he was sitting there, he said to the Blessed One, "Now, > then, Master Gotama, does everything [2] exist?" > > "'Everything exists' is the senior form of cosmology, brahman." > > "Then, Master Gotama, does everything not exist?" > > "'Everything does not exist' is the second form of cosmology, > brahman." > > "Then is everything a Oneness?" > > "'Everything is a Oneness' is the third form of cosmology, brahman." > > "Then is everything a Manyness?" > > "'Everything is a Manyness' is the fourth form of cosmology, brahman. > Avoiding these two extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the > middle: From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. > From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From > consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name- &- > form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the si > "Magnificent, Master Gotama! Magnificent! 27451 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:03pm Subject: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi Larry, Howard, Nina and everyone, I think the conceptual difference between "citta experiences x" and "there is the experience of x", or "citta is the experience of x" is worldwide. The first formulation could be read to suggest that citta is pre- existing, and is sitting there waiting, ready to take on whatever object takes its fancy. The second formulation suggests that there is no citta without an object, which I think coincides more closely with the Buddhist view of things. (though the theoretical bhavanga citta is a spanner in the works) Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > Regarding the difference between being angry and observing anger, I > think they are both objective in that anger is the object of > consciousness but in observing anger the consciousness is accompanied by > understanding (pa~n~na). Furthermore, being angry is already past tense. > Anger arose with consciousness and then immediately after it ceased it > became the object of consciousness. I think this has a tendency to > perpetuate itself when, being angry, the consciousness is also > accompanied by anger. So, in effect, we are angry at being angry. We can > be consciousness of this also, either with or without understanding. > > Larry 27452 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Howard. I do have tendency on the interpretation of the sutta and also my own preferences. I agree that defilements are definitely not intrinsic in the mind, but I think it is equally impt to note that neither is wisdom intrinsic. By the way you interpret, it will mean the mind is intrinsic in wisdom. This will be an essentialism perspective which I think Buddha will not stand for it. All are conditions without substance, so is wisdom. Abdhidhamma perspective is correct, bc everything conditional things are impermanent and anatta (including wisdom). Wisdom is not condition only when one is enlighted. kind regards Ken O 27453 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 5:53pm Subject: Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: Thanks for quoting that sutta; do you agree that > acceptance of sabhava is, at least, a necessary first > step? > > Kind regards, > Ken H Hi Ken H., Hmmm…you are stubborn with this sabhava (intrinsic nature) aren't you? ;-) No, I don't believe that acceptance of sabhava is a necessary first step. Also, I don't believe that acceptance of shunya (emptiness) is a necessary first step. I believe that they are both extreme views. The Buddha taught the view that is in the middle, dependent origination. I know that the human mind has a hard time with this; we usually have to think in terms of polarities: Everything either exists or it doesn't exist, it can't be both. Well, yes it can. I like that sutta too; but honestly, I have a hard time accepting that the cosmologist rejoiced after hearing this explanation of dependent origination just once. He must have been a very open minded cosmologist or the Buddha was a very powerful, persuasive speaker. Long held views are not so easily abandoned, usually. Metta, James 27454 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hi Ken, > > KenO: > we can only be mindful of a pain only after the pain is experience > (i.e. > since only one object at a time is being cognize, therefore > mindfullness is > only possible after it has happened as it is another object) > > Michael: > I probably know less of the Abhidhamma than you but my > understanding it slightly different. There are sense door processes and mind door processes. When you say a pain is experienced I see that as a sense door process. The way you describe it seems that after taking the pain as an object, mindfulness is taken as an object. I don’t see it that way. Mindfulness is not an object but a cetasika which is always present in wholesome states. Therefore after the sense door process has finished (the pain), one or many > mind door processes follow, if mindfulness is present as a factor, > that citta will be wholesome. The mind door process does not require a rupa. k: Definitely mind door process does not need a rupa. If my memory does not fail me bhavanga citta can be both a mind door and a sense door proccess. A citta together with its commitant as mindfullness can be an object for the next citta. > In this sense, the whole spectrum of consciouness, we > must be mindful - then there is a development of the mind. You > said > there is no reference in Satipatthana on this, isn't bhavanga citta > also a consciousness. > > Michael: > Bhavanga is not mentioned in the suttas, it is a creation of the > commentaries. I still find it hard to imagine how to become aware > of bahavanga. k: We are now arguing whether bhavanga can be mindful, which lead to development of the mind as spelt out in the sutta. My position is yes. I have explain before to Howard you will not find any material evidence for Abdhidhamma. Also, as I argue with Howard before if we read it without the knowledge of Bhavanga cittas - the whole sutta will be justification of what we call an underlying pure mind which is essentialist. kind regards Ken O 27455 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James >support, AN, IV 50 "Defilements of Ascetics" k: When the mind is originally luminious, this means there is a nature, an essence, a substance. It contradicts the principal of anatta. Pse look at the Foam Sutta (i.e. in fact there are still others). Two impt principle must be there, anatta and anicca, when we read any Buddhist materials, be it materials from the suttas or commentaries or modern writers, then our interpretations will result less in bais or preferences. kind regards Ken O 27456 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Michael - In a message dated 11/27/03 1:40:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > Hi Ken, > > KenO: > we can only be mindful of a pain only after the pain is experience (i.e. > since only one object at a time is being cognize, therefore mindfullness is > only possible after it has happened as it is another object) > > Michael: > I probably know less of the Abhidhamma than you but my understanding it > slightly different. There are sense door processes and mind door processes. > When you say a pain is experienced I see that as a sense door process. The > way you describe it seems that after taking the pain as an object, > mindfulness is taken as an object. I don’t see it that way. Mindfulness is > not an object but a cetasika which is always present in wholesome states. > Therefore after the sense door process has finished (the pain), one or many > mind door processes follow, if mindfulness is present as a factor, that > citta will be wholesome. The mind door process does not require a rupa. > > Howard: > In this sense, the whole spectrum of consciouness, we > must be mindful - then there is a development of the mind. You said > there is no reference in Satipatthana on this, isn't bhavanga citta > also a consciousness. ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Michael, I'm confused. Are intending to be quoting me in the foregoing? (I never said that. I don't know who did, but it was not I.) ----------------------------------------------------- > > Michael: > Bhavanga is not mentioned in the suttas, it is a creation of the > commentaries. I still find it hard to imagine how to become aware of > bahavanga. > > Metta > Michael > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27457 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, 2 Hi, Larry - In a message dated 11/27/03 6:28:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "don't you know when you want something?" > > Hi Howard, > > Yes I do, but making the desire itself an object of consciousness is > very elusive. Mostly what I notice is associated bodily feeling and > concept. > > Larry > > btw, I got connected and now I am happy. What's that??? > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm ..., good? ;-)) ===================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27458 From: Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/27/03 8:09:40 PM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard. > > I do have tendency on the interpretation of the sutta and also my own > preferences. I agree that defilements are definitely not intrinsic > in the mind, but I think it is equally impt to note that neither is > wisdom intrinsic. By the way you interpret, it will mean the mind is > intrinsic in wisdom. This will be an essentialism perspective which > I think Buddha will not stand for it. All are conditions without > substance, so is wisdom. Abdhidhamma perspective is correct, bc > everything conditional things are impermanent and anatta (including > wisdom). Wisdom is not condition only when one is enlighted. > > > > kind regards > Ken O > ============================= Your point is interesting and clever (in the best sense), Ken. The thing is: Why is it that the perfection of wisdom that comes with full enlightenment never is rescinded? Everything that arises must cease - why not that? It seems to me that perfect wisdom, which is the direct and perfect knowing of reality is a potential that becomes an actuality with the removal of the three poisons, which once fully uprooted, never regrow, ther being no basis for their regrowth. Thus wisdom does not require development per se, but rather requires the removal of blinders for it to shine forth. It requires uncovering. I see the path not ultimately as one of creation but of removal, not of acquiring but of releasing. The arahant is never without actualized perfect wisdom in every mindstate, because the perfect, natural state of "minding and being" has been attained, a state which was there from the outset but covered up by the three poisons. If perfect enlightenment were not always present (albeit unactualized), then it would be something that arises, and thus would also have to subsequently cease [Buddhism 101]. If that is essentialism, then I am an essentialist. I stand convicted. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27459 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:object of awareness, anger. Hi Larry, Very well said, Larry. I shall think matter over and see whether I add something for Howard later on. Nina. op 27-11-2003 17:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Howard and Nina, > > Regarding the difference between being angry and observing anger, I > think they are both objective in that anger is the object of > consciousness but in observing anger the consciousness is accompanied by > understanding (pa~n~na). 27460 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:22pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS Icaro Hi Christine, I wanted to look at Icaro in Bootcamp but could not navigate. All the time I just get the first 16, but I have to go to the last 16. I am too clumsy. I only had Icaro with the rum, an old one. Nina. op 25-11-2003 20:32 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > DhammaStudyGroup has four photo albums. 27461 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS Icaro Hello Nina, Don't worry - I fairly sure that Icaro hasn't put any 'boot camp' photos up for viewing yet. The only two photos that are there, are the 'before' and 'after' drinking rum photos. If you want to look at ALL the photos in the album, click on the particular album you want at: http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst It will open at the first 16 photos. It will show '1-16' 'next 16' and then 'show all' ....then you click on 'show all' at the top. This will show all the thumbnail photos on one page. You then click on the little one you want to view, and it will enlarge. Icaro - looking forward to boot camp photos, particularly of the 'grrrrrls' :-). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Christine, > I wanted to look at Icaro in Bootcamp but could not navigate. All the time I > just get the first 16, but I have to go to the last 16. I am too clumsy. I > only had Icaro with the rum, an old one. > Nina. > op 25-11-2003 20:32 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > > > DhammaStudyGroup has four photo albums. 27462 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi KenH, A little more on the Mahacattarika sutta - just my best guess for now with limited commentary & Pali assistance and even more limited knowledge;-). --- kenhowardau wrote: > S: > p.s MN117-Mahacattarika. Very helpful comments you > made. I think the `right understanding' `that has > blemishes and so ripens to clinging' refers to direct > understanding, not just intellectual. ..... K:> I'm sure you're right. What swayed me the other way was > the term, "ripens to." It seemed to mean more than "can > be taken as an object of." Isn't it the case that no > volitional action, that occurs with satipatthana, can > condition (ripen to), rebirth (of the five aggregates of > clinging)? Ignore that question if it is > incomprehensible, I might have my wires crossed. ..... It’s not incomprehensible and your wires are not crossed. The phrase is awkward. Let me know if these comments make any sense: The Pali seems to be: “sammaaditthi saasavaa pu~n~naabhaagiyaa upadhivepakkaa atthi”. This is something like: right understanding with asavas , siding (?) with merit , ripening in existence/becoming , as upposed to supramundane understanding without asavas. (hope Nina or someone can help further:-/) BB gives a note which says: “This is mundane right view, a meritorious factor that conduces to a favourable rebirth but cannot by itself isue in a transcendance of conditioned existence.” More to the point in the previous footnote, he tells us: “MA [the comy] says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristic of impermanence, etc, and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion.” Working back, in footnote 1100 for ‘pubbangamaa’, lit. “the forerunner”, he gives: “MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight [as being discussed above], which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the righ view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements.” Pu~n~na, merit is used for wholesome kammic action, including satipatthana. For arahants, of course there’s no more kammic action. Right view with lokuttara cittas (magga cittas) brings immediate result by way of phala cittas, so no ripening in future rebirths. Now back to your good question: >Isn't it the case that no > volitional action, that occurs with satipatthana, can > condition (ripen to), rebirth (of the five aggregates of > clinging)? .... I need to turn to some hard-core Abhidhamma to understand this better. From the following passage, which RobertK has referred to in part before, I understand that this refers only to ariyan insight/satipatthana and that mundane insight (as in the sutta) continues to add the bricks: Atthasaalinii, translated as ‘The Expositor’ (PTS), Bk1, ch1,p57: “In the triplet of ‘leading to accumulation (Dhs.p2), ‘accumulation’ means ‘that which is accumulated by kamma and corruptions. It is a name for the processes or rebirth and decease. ‘Leading to accumulations’ are ‘those causes which by being accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that round of rebirth.’ It is a name for co-intoxicant [asava] moral or immoral states. Nibbaana being free from ‘cumulation.’ which is another word for ‘accumulation.’ is called ‘dispersion/’ (namely of the cumulative round of rebirth). ‘Leading to dispersion’ is ‘going towards that dispersion which he has made his object.’ It is a name for the Ariyan Paths. Or, ‘leading to accumulation’ are ‘those states which go about severally arranging (births and deaths in) a round of destiny like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer, in a wall.’ ‘Leading to dispersion’ are those states which go about destroying that very round, like a man who continually removes the bricks as they are laid by the mason.....” KenH, these are just a few rough comments that have taken far longer than anticipated too. It needs more fine-tuning, but I’m running late for class and as you’re going away, I’ll send it now and look forward to further comments from you or anyone else. These are good and difficult qus. Metta, Sarah p.s (Btw, this has no bearing on your recent post to James which I haven’t read yet) ============= 27463 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS Icaro Dear Chris: Chris:" I fairly sure that Icaro hasn't put any 'boot camp' > photos up for viewing yet. The only two photos that are there, are > the 'before' and 'after' drinking rum photos." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah! My Scanner is out of order just now, but today I will try fix it good and well. "Scenes of a Bootcamp" will be delayed till my gears begin to work up again! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- chris:" Icaro - looking forward to boot camp photos, particularly of > the 'grrrrrls' :-).2 ------------------------------------------------------------------- HAHAHAHAHAH!!! First I must take them out of the gruby Grrrrrls hands!!!! But don´t worry: I will return to the Air Base for the final week of Military Instruction and take with me some photos of our grrrrrrls at the bootcamp. And my Dhamma Diary will follow up as usual!!! (I am now the 2nd Lieutennant QCOA Enginner Ícaro... a little step for Man, a greater one for my boots!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 27464 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] PHOTOS Icaro Dear Nina: " I wanted to look at Icaro in Bootcamp but could not navigate. All the time I > just get the first 16, but I have to go to the last 16. I am too clumsy. I > only had Icaro with the rum, an old one." -------------------------------------------------------------------- Buddha at the Bamboo´s Grove couldn´t handle a candle for me at all that mud!!!! But don´t worry, Ibu Van Gorkon! I will post the "Scenes of a Bootcamp" as soon as I get my scanner working properly!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 27465 From: ashkenn2k Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:49am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Howard H: Your point is interesting and clever (in the best sense), Ken. The thing is: Why is it that the perfection of wisdom that comes with full enlightenment never is rescinded? k: A good question. Once enlighment is reach, the wisdom is then beyong conditioning. If Buddha wisdom is conditioned how is Buddha going to expound the dhamma. Buddha standpoint is every clear everything is conditioned and anatta. Until we reach enlightment all is impermanent and anatta. H: It seems to me that perfect wisdom, which is the direct and perfect knowing of reality is a potential that becomes an actuality with the removal of the three poisons, which once fully uprooted, never regrow, ther being no basis for their regrowth. Thus wisdom does not require development per se, but rather requires the removal of blinders for it to shine forth. It requires uncovering. k: If wisdom only requires removal of blinders would mean that there is something behind the curtain of veils. This does not stand in tandem with anatta principle. H: I see the path not ultimately as one of creation but of removal, not of acquiring but of releasing. k: Is is neither acquiring nor releasing. Bc acquiring will mean there is substance to obtain. Wisdom cannot never be release bc it is anatta. We can only be there (the best word I can find to describe attainment of enlightement) when conditions are there. H: The arahant is never without actualized perfect wisdom in every mindstate, because the perfect, natural state of "minding and being" has been attained, a state which was there from the outset but covered up by the three poisons. If perfect enlightenment were not always present (albeitunactualized), then it would be something that arises, and thus would also have to subsequently cease [Buddhism 101]. If that is essentialism, then I am an essentialist. I stand convicted. k: Perfect enlightment is always there as I say many times is saying there is an underlying consciousness. This as I say earlier in my previous post about soul theory. Wisdom is also condition until it arrived beyong condtioning (that is enlightement) If Buddha will talk about anatta so many times, will he then suddenly turn around and say there is Perfect enlightment is always there or luminious mind is always there just that we are too blind to see. That will be a major contradiction of his words. k: Let me share with you some of my personal experience about conditioning. Let talk about today, when there was raining heavily, one of my boss ask me do I need an umbrealla. I was thinking why should I need one, bc raining is a condition so is this body. It is only the body that is wet. Anyway wet is wet :). It also a rupa on another rupa. If there is me involved :), then there will be worries :). So later on I went to do shopping, I was holding a warm material. So warm is warm :). The mind is not affected, its peaceful, it enjoyed freedom. It knows that conditions are just ceasing and arising. It also know this peacefulness is also ceasing and arising. This is the beauty of knowing conditoning in all cittas including wisdom. k: Furthermore why I know this wisdom we have is also a condition. First I have to admit why suddenly I appear in DSG again, bc I was in pain, in grief, in dukkha and I know only Buddhism is the antidote. Then I realise hey I am not practising anymore. I started to read the Thervada suttas again and again. Then again, I was reading Abdhidhammata Sangha, the first three chapters again and again. After that, I combined them together to practise. Then Micheal came out strongly on essentialism, I was still quite unsure then what he was saying about. Until Larry give the link to a website on Nagaruna. On the 3rd para on emptiness was a very interesting one, then combined with what I read on the Foam sutta, suddenly everything becomes clear. I realised everything is conditioned. Any saying about pure mind, luminious mind or Perfect enlightment are just another sabhava. k: Anyway I am still waiting for Micheal response to my two emails one on Sabhava and one on Luminious mind. It always nice talking to both of you especially the challenging questions both of you provided. I dont talk technical terms as I dont analysis Abdhidhamma like many pple here do. I talk about principles of Buddhism. I also like to say I am still learning and I have to thank both of you, and also pple like James and Abdhidhammaist pple here, to provide me an opportunity to learn and that I deeply treasure. Now I understand why Buddha say it is impt to have good companions. Once again many deepest gratitude to everyone here even the lurkers :) Cheers and warmest regards Ken O With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27466 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > My question was > > > Could you provide some references regarding clinging to wholesome > states? Did the Buddha ever address the problem of clinging to > wholesome states, if there is such problem at all? > > > You provided the reference > Aggregates Sutta > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > and said that wholesome states are included in sankhara khandha > translated here as mental fabrications. > > I would not disagree with you on that. But on the other hand, that > is not what I was inquiring. ..... I thought you were asking about clinging to wholesome states and so I pointed out the khandhas subject to clinging. Like now, any of the khandhas, including wholesome states may well be the object of attachment.I also gave other examples such as the great sutta you posted in another thread on clinging. .... <...> > It seems to me that clinging to wholesome states is a specific > problem, .... I’d say clinging is clinging regardless of the object. The problem is in the unwholesome roots, rather than the object. .... >and we agree that > > 1. Generating desire, endeavoring, activating persistence, upholding > & exerting one's intent for the sake of the arising of skillful > qualities that have not yet arisen and for the maintenance, non- > confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of > skillful qualities that have arisen > > and > > 2. Cultivating, developing, pursuing renunciation-pleasure, > seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure > > do not refer to clinging to wholesome states. .... Right, as given in the texts. .... > However, I am not sure what you mean by clinging to wholesome states. .... How about now? Is the desire, pleasure, wish, clinging to past, future or present acts of generosity, to wishes for metta, for more awareness, conceit about good deeds and so on wholesome or unwholesome? What about delight and attachment to keeping good sila, to not breaking precepts and so on. So many examples can be given, but only rt understanding can know if it’s attachment. Whilst performing a good deed, an act of kindness or consideration or generosity, there’s bound to be attachment to the good deed, to the pleasant wholesome feeling, to the calm and so on repeatedly in between the nobler moments. It’s very natural. Only an arahant has no more attachment. I’m not sure we’re on the same track here, Victor, but I know you’ll let me know if this doesn’t pass;-) In any case, I’ve appreciated reflecting on this subject. Metta, Sarah ===== 27467 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:52am Subject: More questions for James James: Thanks for your advice, anyway, just a few more questions to ask, yeah? 1. How did you know that I am being mean to my sister? 2. The Buddha says that we shouldn't kill, even the insects and small animals, because they are all living creatures. But if we don't kill the germs and insects, our food and drinking water would be polluted, and human beings would be extinct. What kind of philosophy is this? 3. Anyway, why is there a big door ramp at each Buddhist temple? Thanks for answering. Philip 27468 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:53am Subject: Do you remember me? Hi James I am Janet, Do you remember me? I'm Philips younger sister.How long is it since I sent you letters? Perhaps start from May or June. I have some questions to ask you: 1 Are you aways sending letters to Philip? How is he behaving? 2 When did you start beleive in Buddha? 3 Do you know much about Buddha? What do you like most ? If you have time, please write to me. Janet (age 9) 27469 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > > >support, AN, IV 50 "Defilements of Ascetics" > > k: When the mind is originally luminious, this means there is a > nature, an essence, a substance. It contradicts the principal of > anatta. Pse look at the Foam Sutta (i.e. in fact there are still > others). Two impt principle must be there, anatta and anicca, when > we read any Buddhist materials, be it materials from the suttas or > commentaries or modern writers, then our interpretations will result > less in bais or preferences. > > > > kind regards > Ken O Hi Ken O, I don't think that `luminous mind' or `buddha nature' is incompatible with anatta. It depends on how you view anatta. It seems to me that you believe that anatta means that when you take everything apart, break down the five aggregates, then absolutely nothing is left. This isn't anatta, this is nihilism. Anatta means that there isn't a lasting soul or essence, there isn't an individual, there isn't a personality…everything that is thought of as, "This is me; this is who I am; this is mine" is incorrect. The original nature of the mind is pure awareness, and this pure awareness is luminous. The original nature of the mind is pure wisdom because then all phenomena (dharmas) are known. It is only through ignorance that individuality springs into being. The original mind is luminous and undifferentiated. What does this mean? What is it like? How does it look? How can such a thing be? These are all questions that the ego-centered mind tries to understand but cannot. Personally, I have only had brief glimpses at it, and then it is gone, and then my ego-centered mind tries to figure out the experience but cannot. I don't know what to tell you, really. You have to know it for yourself. Metta, James 27470 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:42am Subject: Hope you don't mind my quesions!: ) Dear James, How are you? You maybe remember me from last year, I asked you questions about Monks and Buddhism. My name is Anne-Catherine and i go to German Swiss International School in Hong Kong. I read some of your letters to Phillip and they have really inspired me a lot, through your anwers and examples which you have mentioned in your letters. It seems you understand him quite well, how so? Do you have any relation with his character and does Phillip remind you of your childhood? There are more questions waiting for you: 1. Mrs Abbott just told me a minute ago that you are working in Eygpt, why did you choose to work and live in Egypt? 2. If I may ask, are you Buddhist? If you are, why did you choose to be buddhist? And isn't Eygpt a Muslim country, so why are you in Egypt? 3. By curiosity, where did the Buddhism begin and how did this religion spread? Thank you for taking your spare time reading my letter. I can't wait for your rely. Anne-Catherine : ) 27471 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Michael This is a follow-up to the passage from CMA quoted in my earlier reply. Below is the additional part I referred to but did not have ready to quote. It contains the reference to the masochist that you mentioned. (As I said before, however, this is the translator's commentarial summary; I'm not sure to what extent the material is directly from the commentaries.) You also mentioned Geshe Michael Roach. That name is familiar to those of us who remember Erik's posts on this list. Erik mentioned GMR a number of times. If I'm not mistaken, he has done a translation of the Tibetan Abhidhamma. Do you happen to know if it has been published? Jon CMA IV, 17 Guide << << << It should be noted that while the resultant cittas are governed by the nature of the object the javanas are not, but vary in accordance with the temperament and proclivities of the experiencer. Even when the object is extremely desirable, the javanas may occur in the mode of indifference as wholesome or unwholesome cittas accompanied by equanimity; for example, and the sight of the Buddha a sceptic may experience cittas accompanied by doubt, while at the sight of a beautiful woman a meditative monk may experience wholesome cittas accompanied by knowledge and equanimity. It is even possible for javanas accompanied by aversion and displeasure to arise towards a very desirable object. Again, towards an undesirable object, the javanas may occur in the mode normally appropriate for a desirable object. Thus a masochist may respond to physical pain with cittas rooted in greed and accompanied by joy, while a meditative monk may contemplate a decaying corpse with wholesome cittas accompanied by knowledge and joy. >> >> >> --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello Jon, Howard, ... > I don't know if you are familiar with Geshe Michael Roach? Out of ... > again). Second, in relation to kusala/akusala and > pleasant/unpleasant, the > Abhidhammattha also mentions that the combinations are not always > straight > forward. Take for example the situation of a masochist which will > experience > pleasure through an akusala rupa/action. 27472 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Concentration and samatha Larry As I think I mentioned in a previous post, among the 121 different cittas are some that have exactly the same combination of cetasikas (for example, the 10 vipaka cittas are each accompanied by the 7 'universal' cetasikas only). To my understanding, the different cittas are different in respects other than just the accompanying cetasikas. While they have in common the characteristic of being chief in experiencing their object, they also have an individual characteristic that makes them distinct from each other. Seeing consciousness sees visible-object; it cannot experience sound, and so on. Jon --- Larry wrote: ... > My resultant > understanding is that consciousness simply cognizes and the 121 > consciousnesses are the same consciousness with 121 combinations of > the 52 cetasikas and the rupas. Consciousness of consciousness > _itself_ would be consciousness of mere cognizance without the > quality of a cetasika or rupa. I don't see that being explored in > Theravada. So I would conclude that, as in the Satipatthana Sutta, > consciousness of consciousness is actually consciousness of a mind > state composed of cetasikas. I had thought, like you I think, that > the 121 consciousnesses were actually 121 different > consciousnesses, but apparently this is not the case. 27473 From: Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/28/03 6:51:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard > > H: Your point is interesting and clever (in the best sense), Ken. The > thing is: Why is it that the perfection of wisdom that comes with > full enlightenment never is rescinded? > > k: A good question. Once enlighment is reach, the wisdom is then > beyong conditioning. If Buddha wisdom is conditioned how is Buddha > going to expound the dhamma. Buddha standpoint is every clear > everything is conditioned and anatta. Until we reach enlightment > all is impermanent and anatta. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: So here you are proposing something conditioned changing its nature to something unconditioned. Is that not novel? ------------------------------------------ > > H: It seems to me that perfect wisdom, which is the direct and > perfect knowing of reality is a potential that becomes an actuality > with the removal of the three poisons, which once fully uprooted, > never regrow, ther being no basis for their regrowth. Thus wisdom > does not require development per se, but rather requires the removal > of blinders for it to shine forth. It requires uncovering. > > k: If wisdom only requires removal of blinders would mean that > there is something behind the curtain of veils. This does not stand > in tandem with anatta principle. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: I think the problem here lies with what "wisdom" is. This is an instance, in my opinion, where Abhidhamma muddies the waters. I'll say more about this at the end. ----------------------------------------- > > > H: I see the path not ultimately as one of creation but of removal, > not of acquiring but of releasing. > > k: Is is neither acquiring nor releasing. Bc acquiring will mean > there is substance to obtain. Wisdom cannot never be release bc it > is anatta. We can only be there (the best word I can find to > describe attainment of enlightement) when conditions are there. > > H: The arahant is never without actualized perfect wisdom in > every mindstate, because the perfect, natural state of "minding and > being" has been attained, a state which was there from the outset > but covered up by the three poisons. If perfect enlightenment were > not always present (albeit unactualized), then it would be something > that arises, and thus would also have to subsequently cease > [Buddhism 101]. If that is essentialism, then I am an essentialist. > I stand convicted. > > k: Perfect enlightment is always there as I say many times is > saying there is an underlying consciousness. This as I say earlier > in my previous post about soul theory. Wisdom is also condition > until it arrived beyong condtioning (that is enlightement) If > Buddha will talk about anatta so many times, will he then suddenly > turn around and say there is Perfect enlightment is always there or > luminious mind is always there just that we are too blind to see. > That will be a major contradiction of his words. > > k: Let me share with you some of my personal experience about > conditioning. Let talk about today, when there was raining heavily, > one of my boss ask me do I need an umbrealla. I was thinking why > should I need one, bc raining is a condition so is this body. It is > only the body that is wet. Anyway wet is wet :). It also a rupa on > another rupa. If there is me involved :), then there will be > worries :). So later on I went to do shopping, I was holding a warm > material. So warm is warm :). The mind is not affected, its > peaceful, it enjoyed freedom. It knows that conditions are just > ceasing and arising. It also know this peacefulness is also ceasing > and arising. This is the beauty of knowing conditoning in all > cittas including wisdom. > > k: Furthermore why I know this wisdom we have is also a condition. > First I have to admit why suddenly I appear in DSG again, bc I was > in pain, in grief, in dukkha and I know only Buddhism is the > antidote. Then I realise hey I am not practising anymore. I > started to read the Thervada suttas again and again. Then again, I > was reading Abdhidhammata Sangha, the first three chapters again and > again. After that, I combined them together to practise. Then > Micheal came out strongly on essentialism, I was still quite unsure > then what he was saying about. Until Larry give the link to a > website on Nagaruna. On the 3rd para on emptiness was a very > interesting one, then combined with what I read on the Foam sutta, > suddenly everything becomes clear. I realised everything is > conditioned. Any saying about pure mind, luminious mind or Perfect > enlightment are just another sabhava. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand you, Ken, and I most assuredly empathize. But I think what you are saying is valid only if "wisdom" is understood in a particular way (the "Abhidhammic way"! ;-), which I think is an error. More below on this. ---------------------------------------------- > > k: Anyway I am still waiting for Micheal response to my two emails > one on Sabhava and one on Luminious mind. It always nice talking to > both of you especially the challenging questions both of you > provided. I dont talk technical terms as I dont analysis > Abdhidhamma like many pple here do. I talk about principles of > Buddhism. I also like to say I am still learning and I have to > thank both of you, and also pple like James and Abdhidhammaist pple > here, to provide me an opportunity to learn and that I deeply > treasure. Now I understand why Buddha say it is impt to have good > companions. > > Once again many deepest gratitude to everyone here even the > lurkers :) > > Cheers and warmest regards > Ken O > > ============================= Ken, Abhidhamma takes wisdom/insight/pa~n~na to be a special mental function. I do not understand it that way. If perfect wisdom were an actual, positive phenomenon that arises, then it would have to cease as well. I do not see how that could be questioned and still accept the Buddha's teaching of anicca - whatever arises, ceases. As I see it, 'wisdom' is a conventional term to describe the natural, unobscured functioning of the mind, the natural functioning of discernment (vi~n~nana) and perception/recognition (sa~n~na). When one sees clearly, without obscuration, how phenomena actually arise and are and cease, that is mind functioning naturally, without obscuration - that is mind functioning "with wisdom". Sunlight naturally lights up whatever moves along the surface of the earth unless it is obscured by a cloud cover. When the clouds part a little, there is some visibility, when they part more, there is increased visibility, and when they disperse entirely, then there is complete visibility. Insights do come and go - they are the content of various mindstates that come and go. When defilements (obscurations) are weakened, due to some degree of awakening or by being held in abeyance by strong mindfulness and concentration, energetic investigation can result in (relatively) clear seeing, and an "insight" arises. An insight is a moment of clear seeing, a peeking through the darkness by a ray of light, a moment of relatively normal functioning. When defilements are gone fully, all discernment is without obscuration. Wisdom, and enlightenment, and nibbana itself, for that matter, are not positive presences, but are absences. It is not that the state of perfect enlightenment and freedom is something special to be obtained. Our current state, having been in effect without beginning, is special in a negative sense - it is an abnormal, sick state. The Buddha was called the great physician because he provided us with medicine to cure our *illness*. We are so used to this sick state of malfunctioning, we have been ill for so long, that we tend to not even realize that we are ill. We tend to think we are "normal," but that special, magnificent states that go beyond "just normal" are achievable. I think this is a backwards point of view. We are not "normal". We are ill. We need to take the Buddha's medicine. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27474 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:11am Subject: Re: Pali and monk questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > I hope you are keeping well! Well, thank you > for answering my questions and here are my new ones: > 1:How is the language Pali like? Do anyone in the > world speak it today? > 2:Where do most Buddhist monks live? ( I mean as in > the type of shelter they live in) > 3:Are there special rules that Buddhist monks have to > obey which are different from normal people? > That's all! > Metta, > Janice Hi Star Kid Janice! Yes, I am keeping well. Thanks for asking. Here are some answers to your questions: 1:How is the language Pali like? Do anyone in the world speak it today? Answer: Well, here are some examples of Pali with English translations: Etaü santaü, etaü paõãtaü, yadidaü sabbasaïkhàrasamatho sabbåpadhipañinissaggo taõhakkhayo viràgo nirodho nibbànaü. "This is peaceful, this is excellent, namely the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction". Yathà yathà và pan'assa kàyo paõihito hoti tathà tathà naü pajànàti, "in whatever way his body is disposed, so he understands it". Hatthesu, bhikkhave, sati àdànanikkhepanaü pa¤¤àyati, pàdesu sati abhikkamapañikkamo pa¤¤àyati, pabbesu sati sammi¤janapasàraõaü pa¤¤àyati, kucchismiü sati jighacchà pipàsà pa¤¤àyati. "When there are hands, monks, a taking up and putting down is apparent; when there are feet, a going forward and coming back is apparent; when there are joints, a bending and stretching is apparent; when there is a belly, hunger and thirst is apparent." No one speaks Pali in the world today. It is a dead language. Some people learn to translate and write in Pali, to study Buddhist documents, but they can't really speak it to hold conversations and such. 2:Where do most Buddhist monks live? (I mean as in the type of shelter they live in) Answer: They live in the Buddhist temple. 3:Are there special rules that Buddhist monks have to obey which are different from normal people? Answer: Yes, they must obey 227 additional rules, in addition to the five, eight, and ten precepts for lay people (five precepts for all Buddhists and 8/10 precepts for all Buddhists during retreats and staying at a Buddhist temple.) These rules are listed in the Vinaya Pitaka. Hope these answer your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27475 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:39am Subject: Cetasikas As Designers Or Helpers ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Out of 25 Constructive Ministers or beautiful Cetasikas, 19 have been described in the previous post. There left 6 beautiful Cetasikas. They are Virati( abstinence ) Cetasikas, Appamanna (endless ) Cetasikas, and Panna Cetasika. Virati Cetasikas are those Cetasikas that help Citta avoid doing bad things. There are three Cetasikas in this group of Virati Cetasika. They are Sammakammanta, Sammavaca, and Sammaajiva Cetasika. Three Virati Cetasikas are 20. Sammakammanta ( right action ) This Constructive Minister advises the king Citta not to do bad things. It has the character of abstinence. This Cetasika is also a kind of inhibition like Hirika and Ottappa. But the main function of this Cetasika is inhibiting doing of bad things at Kayadvara or body- door. While Hirika and Ottappa are considering the consequences, Sammakammanta consider the wickedness, the badness of the actions at the body and it inhibit doing bad things. 21.Sammavaca ( right speech ) This Cetasika is like Sammakammanta Cetasika. This Constructive Minister advises the king Citta not to tell wrong speech, not to tell lies, and not to express wrong thing verbally. It is also a kind of inhibition but it focuses on the verbal actions. 22. Sammaajiva ( right living , right livelihood ) This Constructive Minister makes the king Citta to live on right living or right livelihood. This Cetasika is also a kind of inhibition. But it considers pureness of livelihood. Living on occupations which are performed under the influence of Sammakammata and Sammavaca is the chief character of Sammaajiva. There are two Appamanna Cetasikas. They are Karuna and Mudita. 23. Karuna ( pitiness, compassion ) This Constructive Minister makes citta to have pity on Sattas. This Cetasika is compassion. It considers on Sattas who are in the state of unfulfilment, Sattas who are in dangers, who are suffering, who are lacking in something and so on. This Cetasika assists in producing helping hand to others who are in needs of something. 24. Mudhita ( happiness on wealthiness of others ) This Minister makes citta to have a good mood on the events of other people success and achievement. He is happy to hear other people success. He is happy to know that other people are at good conditions. This Cetasika is enemy for Issa or jealousy. Issa and Mudita never co-exist in a Citta. Panna Cetasika is the most important of all Cetasikas in Dhamma. There is only one Cetasika in this group. 25. Pannindriya ( Panna or Wisdom ) This Minister is Prime Minister. This Cetasika makes the king Citta think to see and to realise things in depth. He has a power of realization. He has a power of analysis. He has a power of penetration. He has a good insight into the matter in question. If Prime Minister is present and functioning well all other accompanying Cetasikas work well and all are well organized. This Cetasika is like a wise man or a wise minister that present the pros and cons of all to the king Citta. This Cetasika is the chief of all Cetasikas in Rupa and Arupa Jhana, Magga Citta, and Phala Citta. Without this Pannindriya Cetasika there will not arise any Jhana Citta or any Magga Citta or any Phala Citta. All these Constructive Ministers mostly work together and they all are beautiful Cetasikas. May you all well breed these beautiful Cetasikas With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27476 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 8:53am Subject: Re: The Buddha --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > I do agree with you with what you wrote to Philip, > how people have good results and they start to relax > thinking that this will stay like that forever. But > unexpectedly things just change. > > Did the Buddha have a large number of people following > him? > Did the Buddha teach them what is right and what is > wrong? > If they did something wrong, will they be punished? > > Metta, > Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! I am glad that you realize that things change. Most people know that bad things change, and wait for them to go away, but they usually don't consider that good things go away also. Trying to keep away the bad and hold onto the good our whole lives creates suffering. Okay, let me answer your questions: Question: Did the Buddha have a large number of people following him? Answer: Yes. He started out with only five followers but that number grew to thousands. I don't know the exact numbers because they didn't keep records like that back then. Question: Did the Buddha teach them what is right and what is wrong? Answer: Yes he did. And they taught each other also. Question: If they did something wrong, will they be punished? Answer: It depended on how bad a thing they did. If it was a minor infraction and they confessed the infraction to the entire sangha, then they wouldn't be punished. But if it was a significant infraction, they would have to go to a meeting of the sangha and then they would be put on probation. Four infractions would lead to immediate expulsion from the sangha (kicked out): sexual-intercourse, murder, theft, or falsely claiming supernormal abilities. Hope this answers your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:10am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Sarah and all, Thank you for providing some examples on what you mean by clinging to wholesome states, such as: 1. The desire, pleasure, wish, clinging to past, future or present acts of generosity. 2. Wishes for metta, for more awareness, conceit about good deeds. 3. Delight and attachment to keeping good sila, to not breaking precepts. Here are some more questions: What does it mean by the desire and wish to past, future or present acts of generosity? What does it mean by the pleasure to past, future or present acts of generosity? What does it mean by the clinging to past, future or present acts of generosity? What does it mean by wishes for metta? for more awareness? What does it mean by conceit about good deeds? What does it mean by delight to keeping good sila, to not breaking precepts? What does it mean by attachment to keeping good sila, to not breaking precepts? How is it bound to be attachment to the good deed, to the pleasant wholesome feeling, to the calm and so on whilst performing a good deed, an act of kindness or consideration or generosity? What are the nobler moments? I've put forth a barrage of questions... Peace, Victor PS. Happy Thanksgiving for all who celebrate this holiday!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, > Hi Sarah and all. [snip] > > However, I am not sure what you mean by clinging to wholesome states. > .... > How about now? Is the desire, pleasure, wish, clinging to past, future or > present acts of generosity, to wishes for metta, for more awareness, > conceit about good deeds and so on wholesome or unwholesome? What about > delight and attachment to keeping good sila, to not breaking precepts and > so on. So many examples can be given, but only rt understanding can know > if it's attachment. Whilst performing a good deed, an act of kindness or > consideration or generosity, there's bound to be attachment to the good > deed, to the pleasant wholesome feeling, to the calm and so on repeatedly > in between the nobler moments. It's very natural. Only an arahant has no > more attachment. > > I'm not sure we're on the same track here, Victor, but I know you'll let > me know if this doesn't pass;-) In any case, I've appreciated reflecting > on this subject. > > Metta, > > Sarah 27478 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:20am Subject: Re: More questions for James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > James: > > Thanks for your advice, anyway, just a few more > questions to ask, yeah? > > 1. How did you know that I am being mean to my > sister? > > 2. The Buddha says that we shouldn't kill, even the > insects and small animals, because they are all living > creatures. But if we don't kill the germs and insects, > our food and drinking water would be polluted, and > human beings would be extinct. What kind of philosophy > is this? > > 3. Anyway, why is there a big door ramp at each > Buddhist temple? > > Thanks for answering. > > Philip Hi Star Kid Philip! You are very welcome for the advice. I hope it helps you. Let me get to your questions: 1. How did you know that I am being mean to my sister? Answer: I just had a feeling. A long time ago, when the Star Kids first started writing, your sister wrote to me after I had written to you. She wrote that she was going to tell your mom about something you had written to me. I could tell that she feels victimized by you and wants you to act right. This is very important to her; much more important than it is to you. She looks up to you but you just consider her a little pest who you can terrorize at will. I can pick up a lot of impressions from people's writing; much more than what they say outright. Call it `reading between the lines' if you will. No one told me if that is what you are wondering. 2. The Buddha says that we shouldn't kill, even the insects and small animals, because they are all living creatures. But if we don't kill the germs and insects, our food and drinking water would be polluted, and human beings would be extinct. What kind of philosophy is this? Answer: The precept is to refrain from killing living beings; that means to do everything possible not to kill. But, as you point out, sometimes killing a living being is necessary for survival. In those instances, it should be done mindfully and with remorse. Even your religion, Christianity, has the commandment of "Thou Shalt Not Kill". Buddhists just take that idea a bit further. 3. Anyway, why is there a big door ramp at each Buddhist temple? Answer: I am not completely sure what you mean. From your description it is probably to make the temple wheelchair accessible. Hope this answers your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27479 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:39am Subject: Re: Do you remember me? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James > I am Janet, Do you remember me? I'm Philips younger > sister.How long is it since I sent you letters? > Perhaps start from May or June. > I have some questions to ask you: > > 1 Are you aways sending letters to Philip? How is he > behaving? > 2 When did you start beleive in Buddha? > 3 Do you know much about Buddha? What do you like most > ? If you have time, please write to me. > > > Janet (age 9) Hi Star Kid Janet! Yes I remember you. I don't remember exactly when you wrote to me; I am very bad about keeping time. Maybe it was in May or June, I don't really know. Okay, let me get to your question: 1 Are you aways sending letters to Philip? How is he behaving? Answer: I send a letter to Philip if he writes to me. You don't need to concern yourself with how he is behaving; you should just think about how you are behaving. 2 When did you start beleive in Buddha? Answer: When I had first started college, when I was about 19 or 20 years old. I am 34 now so it was about 14 or 15 years ago. 3 Do you know much about Buddha? What do you like most? Answer: Honestly, I have been studying Buddhism since I became a Buddhist and I still don't think I know enough about the Buddha. He is an endless topic of fascination and depth. What I like most about the Buddha is that he was a human being, just like me. He made several mistakes along the way looking for the answer to what he was seeking but he never gave up; that is what I try to do with my life also. And I continue to make mistakes along the way ;-). Hope these answer your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27480 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:20am Subject: Re: Hope you don't mind my quesions!: ) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > How are you? You maybe remember me from last year, I > asked you questions about Monks and Buddhism. > My name is Anne-Catherine and i go to German Swiss > International School in Hong Kong. > > I read some of your letters to Phillip and they have > really inspired me a lot, through your anwers and > examples which you have mentioned in your letters. It > seems you understand him quite well, how so? Do you > have any relation with his character and does Phillip > remind you of your childhood? > > There are more questions waiting for you: > 1. Mrs Abbott just told me a minute ago that you are > working in Eygpt, why did you choose to work and live > in Egypt? > 2. If I may ask, are you Buddhist? If you are, why did > you choose to be buddhist? > And isn't Eygpt a Muslim country, so why are you in > Egypt? > 3. By curiosity, where did the Buddhism begin and how > did this religion spread? > > Thank you for taking your spare time reading my > letter. I can't wait for your rely. > > Anne-Catherine : ) > Hi Star Kid Anne-Catherine! Yes, I remember you. I am glad that my letters to Philip inspired you. Yes, to some extent I am like Philip and to some extent I am not. I see a bit of everyone in myself though. I can sense things from what people write and I was especially in-tune with Philip because I felt that I am going through some of the same issues that he is currently going through. I don't think that Philip and I had the same childhood because he is much more outspoken than I was; I was a quiet and reflective child and didn't draw a lot of attention to myself like he does. I can be a terror at times in writing, and on the Internet, but in person I am much more subdued. Okay, enough about Philip and me, let me get to your questions (which I see that some of them are still about me ;-): 1. Mrs Abbott just told me a minute ago that you are working in Eygpt, why did you choose to work and live in Egypt? Answer: Call it `temporary insanity'! hehehe…just kidding. The opportunity came along and I felt that it was something I needed to do. That it would teach me something about myself that I needed to know. I was right about that, so far it has taught me a lot about myself. 2. If I may ask, are you Buddhist? If you are, why did you choose to be buddhist? And isn't Eygpt a Muslim country, so why are you in Egypt? Answer: Yes I am Buddhist. I chose to be Buddhist because the teachings of the Buddha are the truth to me. They answer the question as to what is the reason for my existence and how I should live my life to be a better person. Yes, Egypt is predominately a Muslim country. I didn't feel that I needed to live in a Buddhist country. Nowadays, Buddhist countries aren't really all that Buddhist anyway. 3. By curiosity, where did the Buddhism begin and how did this religion spread? Answer: Buddhism began in India and made its way to China, Tibet and other Asian countries. It was spread my monks who traveled and taught what they knew. In those countries Buddhism is a part of the culture now. Since then, Buddhists are found all over the world but Buddhism isn't a part of the culture in the Middle East, Europe, and North/South America. Hope this answers your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27481 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 3 b sanna. Hi Larry, op 27-11-2003 19:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: feeling being cetasikas... , these things are bound up with citta and > are mind functions.> > > I wonder if we could say perception (sanna) is identification? N: It is recognition or remembrance. It marks the object or remembers it. It accompanies each citta experiencing objects through the six doors. Also seeing. When it arises with seeing it does not identify or define seeing. I do not think this word fits in connection with sanna. Nina. 27482 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:42am Subject: Tiika Vis. 37, part 2, fragments. Tiika Texts 37, part 2, fragments (using Vis. note 14): ...... Etthaahañ cakkhaadiina.m indriyaana.m ki.m ekakammunaa uppatti, udaahu naanaakammunaati? Ubhayathaapiiti poraa.naa. 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Tattha naanaakammunaa taava uppattiya.m cakkhaadiina.m visese vattabba.m natthi kaara.nassa bhinnattaa. Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. Ekakammunaa pana uppattiya.m katha.m nesa.m visesoti? Kaara.nassa bhinnattaa eva. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. Ta.mta.mbhavapatthanaabhuutaa hi ta.nhaa ta.mta.mbhavapariyaapannaayatanaabhilaasataaya saya.m vicittaruupaa upanissayabhaavena ta.mta.mbhavanibbattakakammassa vicittabhedata.m vidahati. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as decisive-support, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. Yato tadaahitavisesa.m ta.m tathaaruupasamatthataayogenaanekaruupaapanna.m viya aneka.m visi.t.thasabhaava.m phala.m nibbatteti. As soon as the kamma has acquired the differentiation induced by that [hankering] it generates that effort consisting in appropriate ability, a multiple fruit with differentiated essences, as though it had itself taken on a multiple form. ........ Aya~nca ekassapi kammassa anekindriyahetutaavisesayogo yuttito, aagamanato ca parato aagamissati. And the fact of this differentiating effort on the part of kamma that is one being the cause of the multiple faculties will be dealt with below as to logic and texts. Apica ekasseva kusalacittassa so.lasaadivipaakacittanibbattihetutaa vuccati. Besides, it is told how one kind of consciousness only is the cause of the generation of sixteen kinds of resultant consciousness and so on; Lokepi ekasseva saalibiijassa paripu.n.naaparipu.n.nata.n.dula-aata.n.dulaphalanibbattihetutaa dissateva, ki.m vaa etaaya yutticintaaya. and in the world it is also found that a single paddy seed is the cause of the generation of the ripe, the unripe, the husked, and the unhusked fruit. But what is the use of logical thinking? Yato kammaphala.m cakkhaadiini, kammavipaako ca sabbaso buddhaana.myeva ~naa.nassa visayoti. For the eye, etc., are the fruit of kamma; and kamma-result is exclusively the province of a Buddha's knowledge' (Pm.444). ****** Nina. 27483 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:42am Subject: anapanasati 3 c anapanasati 3 c The Vis. adds that this tetrad deals with the contemplation of feeling. The Co, the Papa~casuudanii, speaks about a , vedanaa~n~nantara.m. As to the words of the sutta, ³The giving attention completely², the Co explains that attention is not pleasant feeling but it comes under the heading of feeling. The Co repeats what has been stated in the Vis. about experiencing rapture and pleasant feeling with the object and with non-delusion. The Co then states: The Commentary explains that in the same way bliss and citta sankhara, the mental formation, are experienced and that it is thus rightly stated that the monk contemplates feelings in the feelings. The Commentary to the Satipatthana sutta states that contemplating feelings in the feelings should be seen in the same way as contemplating the body in the body: thus, in order to limit the object and ³sifting it out². We read: ****** Nina. 27484 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 2:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Inherent characteristics of rupa Hi Jon, Jon: You also mentioned Geshe Michael Roach. If I'm not mistaken, he has done a translation of the Tibetan Abhidhamma. Do you happen to know if it has been published? Michael: No, I don't know. I have only listened to some of his audio files and heard about his book - The Diamond Cutter ( I think). And more recently heard some controversies about him. But that would be frivolous talk. Metta Michael 27485 From: nordwest Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 0:32pm Subject: Please help sick person with your prayers Dear sangha friends, I first like to tell you an update about Sonja, who received blessings from your transvers of spiritual merits. As you may remember, the doctors has given up on her, but she recovered after we recited the Medicine Buddha, the Amitabha Buddha and prayers for her. I got an email yesterday from my family telling that the doctors and helpers don't even recogiinze Sonja anymore, and have no idea what happend: she is extreemly fit and full of life energy again. So my thanks, and deepest bows, to you again for this wonderful Dharma! A good friend of my step-mom has a difficult time with her cancer in the stomach and gets chemo-therapy right now. Maybe you can join my dedications with some (buddha/mantra) recitations and prayers for her, her name is Doris. Thank you very much. Yours in the Dharma, Thomas 27486 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:57pm Subject: The Buddha's teaching Dear James, How are you? I hope you are keeping well! Thank you for the inspiring questions about Buddhism! Here are some questions : 1. How long did the Buddha teach his people? 2. How did the Buddha teach his people? 3. Where did the chief monk ' Abbot' come from? That's it! Metta, Janice P.S. Did you get my other letter about two weeks ago? ______________________________________________________ 27487 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Thank you for providing some examples on what you mean by clinging > to wholesome states, such as: > > 1. The desire, pleasure, wish, clinging to past, future or present > acts of generosity. > > 2. Wishes for metta, for more awareness, conceit about good deeds. > > 3. Delight and attachment to keeping good sila, to not breaking > precepts. > > Here are some more questions: .... I'm busy teaching today. Perhaps in the meantime you can try answering your questions first;-) I'm sure you have your own ideas. .... > How is it bound to be attachment to the good deed, to the pleasant > wholesome feeling, to the calm and so on whilst performing a good > deed, an act of kindness or consideration or generosity? .... Just this one - attachment is bound to sneak in at every opportunity. This is its nature. As soon as we open our eyes, there's lobha. Perhaps you can add some links for me to make the point;-) .... > What are the nobler moments? > > I've put forth a barrage of questions... ... What do you think are the nobler moments and yes there were a lot of qus;-) Please let us know the answers;-) .... > PS. Happy Thanksgiving for all who celebrate this holiday!! .... Likewise and thanks for the good wishes. Metta, Sarah ====== 27488 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 5:13pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Hello! Hello, Start Kid Janice, Of course, I remember you. It's good to be talking to you again too, after a long break ;-). I am sorry I din't get back to you sooner, I had been in Thailand for about 4 1/2 weeks, and didn't check email that often. Kamma is not a person. Kamma is the intention (to do something). For example, when you give to another person, you have to have an intention to give for the giving to happen. The intention is (good) kamma. When you lie, you have to have an intention to lie. That intention is (bad) kamma. Kamma is a cause: it will give results in the future. Good kamma brings good results, and bad kamma brings bad results. If we don't like bad results, we'd better have good intention to other beings (good kamma). The Buddha taught about kamma in details, most likely more than in other religion that also teaches about kamma. No, all is left of the Buddha are his teaching, and all the students that follow his teachings. He cannot talk to anybody as there is nothing left of him except for bone fragments and other relics which are often stored in pagodas. Mrs. Abbot just came back from a visit to Burma where she visited a famous pagoda that stores the hairs of the Buddha. I am glad that you are still interested in learning more about Buddhism. It is a teaching that has been so helpful to myself. Metta, kom 27489 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Sarah and all, I am not sure what the answers to those questions should be in the context of what the Buddha taught. If possible I would like to see if any of these examples of "clinging to wholesome states" is addressed in the discourses. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27490 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > I am not sure what the answers to those questions should be in the > context of what the Buddha taught. If possible I would like to see > if any of these examples of "clinging to wholesome states" is > addressed in the discourses. .... Where did you get the idea that Dhamma-Vinaya only refers to the discourses?;-) As far as I’m concerned, the Buddha taught the TI-pitaka; You don’t accept the discourses I’ve offered, so let me introduce you to some straight Abhidhamma from the Pa.t.thaana, the book of Conditional Relations*. As you know, there are 24 conditions by which all conditioned states arise, including ‘clinging’ or attachment (lobha). The first condition is root condition. Without the root of lobha, it cannot arise. The second condition is object condition: From Analytical Exposition of the Conditions 2. Object Condition “ i) visible object-base is related to eye-consciousnes element and its associated states by object condition............etc vii) ALL states are related to mind-consciousness element and its associated states by object condition. viii) Taking ANY state as object, these states, consciousness and mental factors, arise; these (former) states are related to those (latter) states by object condition.” In other words, all states including wholesome states become object of any mind-consciousness and its co-factors. In case this is not explicit enough, let me give a more detailed quote from the same text: From Faultless Triplet Object 9, 405, ii “Faultless state is related to faulty state by object condition. After having offered the offering, having undertaken the precept, having fulfilled the duty of observance, (one) enjoys and delights in it. Taking it as object, arises, lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief. (One) enjoys and delights in (such acts) formerly well done. Taking it as object, arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness, arises grief. Having emerged from jhaana, (one) enjoys and delights in the jhaana. Taking it (jhaana) as object, arises lust, arises wrong views, arises doubt, arises restlessness. When jhaana has disappeared, (one) regrets it and thereby arises grief.” ..... Of course, for the arahant, there are no faulty (unwholesome) states, and therefore the object cannot condition attachment. Victor, rather than ask for more references or reply and say you don’t accept the Abhidhamma, why not consider whether there is any attachment to wholesome states over the Thanksgiving weekend. Thank you again for conditioning these further reflections;-) With metta, Sarah * “But when, coming to the Great Book (the Pa.t.thaana), he began to contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of presentation, and so on, his [the Buddha’s] omniscience certainly found its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Rimiratipin’ngala finds room only in the great ocean eighty-four thousand yojanas in depth, so his omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book.” (Introductory Discourse, Atthasaalini). ====== 27491 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James > Hi Ken O, > J: I don't think that `luminous mind' or `buddha nature' is > incompatible with anatta. It depends on how you view anatta. It seems to me that you believe that anatta means that when you take everything apart, break down the five aggregates, then absolutely nothing is left. This isn't anatta, this is nihilism. Anatta means that there isn't a lasting soul or essence, there isn't an individual, there isn't a personality…everything that is thought of as, "This is me; this is who I am; this is mine" is incorrect. The original nature of the mind is pure awareness, and this pure awareness is luminous. The original nature of the mind is pure wisdom because then all phenomena (dharmas) are known. It is only through ignorance that individuality springs into being. The original mind is luminous and undifferentiated. k; When I first started Buddhism, I do have this idea. However, pse give me a chance to explain further again even though I may not be good at it. There is something about anatta that is difficult to explain. Buddha is very clever, he say it is neither exsting nor non-existing. He illustrate with examples llike bubble, like foam. It is there but if we start having ideas that there is something there is mind that is luminious, that is there undifferential, an original mind, this will mean it is unconditional, a entity without change will mean an atta. This essence is very differnt from the way I say fire is hot. > > What does this mean? What is it like? How does it look? How can > such a thing be? These are all questions that the ego-centered > mind tries to understand but cannot. Personally, I have only had brief glimpses at it, and then it is gone, and then my ego-centered mind tries to figure out the experience but cannot. I don't know what to tell you, really. You have to know it for yourself. k: Let me be long winded and repeat myself again. As I say Buddha is an extremely clever person, beyond compare, beyond doubt. The theory of his existence and non-existence is beyond conditioned man realm of understanding until at least we reach the first stage of enlightment. He always says it is empty of a self, but he does not say this empty of self is another self bc this will contradicts himself. What is it? We can only know by the words that it is there, have faith in his wisdom. Anything that it is lumnious, a pure mind is just pure speculation. The experience you have is maybe Jhanas (I am not an expert just a guess). I have also experience days of aboslute freedom and joy, nothing affects me, everything as what Herman say pure awareness, just like watching a show goes by. There is no concept of space and time. No you and I. Just the momment. And one of my friend thinks I am a nut and I smile :). Cheers and have a merry day Ken O 27492 From: Sarah Date: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Howard. > Abdhidhamma perspective is correct, bc > everything conditional things are impermanent and anatta (including > wisdom). Wisdom is not condition only when one is enlighted. .... I agree with all your other comments. A couple of times you've mentioned sth to suggest that wisdom is not conditioned when enlightened which is not clear to me. Even lokuttara wisdom and the arahant's wisdom is conditioned, anicca, dukkha and anatta. The ONLY unconditioned dhamma is nibbana (the object of the lokuttara cittas with wisdom). No other exceptions to the rule - all others sankhara. No time to chat. Keep up all your great discussions;-) ;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Sorry to read you've had some difficulties or personal problems. As you say, only the Dhamma can help. . ================================== 27493 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 0:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Howard H: So here you are proposing something conditioned changing its nature to something unconditioned. Is that not novel? k: It is not novel. Let me try to discuss this issue without Abdhidhamma, my opinion is that one needs an unconditioned mind to explain a conditional mind. As I wrote earlier to James that this existence and non-existence is beyond the conditioned mind to understand, only Buddha who experience the unconditonal state able to explain. This wisdom is beyond conditioning. I believe it is Nibbana however not a total Nibbana bc the body is still conditioned by kamma. If I have not forgotten, somebody did quote something about it, is it a sutta or some Abdhidhamma material. To me, Buddha path is a conditioned mind to Nibbana (i.e. to me it is unconditional mind hence unconditional wisdom) H: I think the problem here lies with what "wisdom" is. This is > an instance, in my opinion, where Abhidhamma muddies the waters. But I think what you are saying is valid only if "wisdom" is understood in a particular way (the "Abhidhammic way"! ;-), which I think is an error. Abhidhamma takes wisdom/insight/pa~n~na to be a special mental function. I do not understand it that way. If perfect wisdom were an actual, positive phenomenon that arises, then it would have to cease as well. I do not see how that could be questioned and still accept the Buddha's teaching of anicca - whatever arises, ceases. k: My stand is that perfect wisdom is beyond conditioning. What we have now is conditioned wisdom so it has to arise and cease. H: As I see it, 'wisdom' is a conventional term to describe the natural, unobscured functioning of the mind, the natural functioning of discernment (vi~n~nana) and perception/recognition (sa~n~na). When one sees clearly, without obscuration, how phenomena actually arise and are and cease, that is mind functioning naturally, without obscuration - that is mind functioning "with wisdom". k: When I look closer at this statement, this sounds Abdhidhamma. Then one see clearly - means that is a cognition of an object (consciousness). How phenomena actually arise and are and cease, that is mind functioning naturally, without obscuration - that is mind functioning "with wisdom". - means that is a mental function. In my context, in order for wisdom to arise to discern, it also must be condition by an unwholestate, or a state of indifference or a wholesome one. Wisdom can also be conditioned by our learning, or right effort. H: Sunlight naturally lights up whatever moves along the surface of the earth unless it is obscured by a cloud cover. When the clouds part a little, there is some visibility, when they part more, there is increased visibility, and when they disperse entirely, then there is complete visibility. Insights do come and go - they are the content of various mindstates that come and go. When defilements (obscurations) are weakened, due to some degree of > awakening or by being held in abeyance by strong mindfulness and concentration, energetic investigation can result in (relatively) clear seeing, and an "insight" arises. An insight is a moment of clear seeing, a peeking through the darkness by a ray of light, a moment of relatively normal functioning. When defilements are > gone fully, all discernment is without obscuration. k: Howard, that is again I think you are refering something behind the back. A presence which I think anatta trying to dispell. Anatta is a very tricky word - to me it is an absence of a self - but it does not point to another self, or to another presence bc all such pointing of another presence will mean we will cling to it, and this will leading to suffering. It is just anatta - a state beyond conditioned mind. We know that Anatta is the word that separates Buddhism and with many teachers at that time. Some of them do spoke about impermenant but they point to a presence. This is what Buddha trying to dispell, any presence will bring a whole mass of sufferings. An absence of presence is the key. Buddha never used a word to describe this presence bc he knows any description will make us cling to it. He leave it as neither existent nor non existent (a very clever man) warmest regards Ken O 27494 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 0:55am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah Sometimes, it is difficult to juggle explaining in ways that is not Abdhidhamma and sometimes it is a mixed up. I know one day someone will ask this question. You said that a lokuttara wisdom and the arahant's wisdom is conditioned, anicca, dukkha and anatta. What are these refering, they are referring to kammic effects. As long as one is still in the condition world, the effects are there. The world loku as you know is beyond the world or supramundane. When we say it is beyond the world or supramundane, to me it is wisdom that is not bound by *conditioned* world, however why it is still bound by anicca, dukkha and anatta to me it is bc of kammic effects. Maybe I should use the word "beyond the conditioned world consciouness" to argue but this is too long to write, too cumbersome. I prefer the word unconditioned wisdom to express lokiya citta to lokuttara citta. Ok maybe next time I used supramundane wisdom to avoid confusion. Or maybe I should use this word unwordly widsom ;-). In my stand, one needs to experience the unconditioned dhamma (Nibbana as an object) in order to explain what is in the condition world. (I think there is a sutta on this where Arahant is in Nibbana but not total Nibbana until the conditioned life time is over due to kamma) Or not Buddha will have a hard time convincing pple that there is a way to liberation (i.e. Nibbana). I always happy if you got more to discuss here bc I not particularly into jhanas or supramundane consciouness bc now to me it is a state too far away to study. Kind regards Ken O 27495 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James Hi Ken O, Both metaphors that the Buddha uses, "foam" and "luminous" are just metaphors. They are not literal descriptions of anything. It seems to me that you are taking them as literal descriptions and you have made up your mind as to what they mean. In the foam sutta, is the Buddha giving a description of anatta and absolute reality? No. He is just giving a strategy for his monks to follow that will lead to dispassion and enlightenment. To quote the summary: "Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he grows dispassionate. Through dispassion, he's released. With release there's the knowledge, 'Released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-095.html Seeing things thus will lead to disenchantment, and disenchantment will lead to knowledge and release. The Buddha didn't say, " Listen monks and I will give you a description of anatta so that you will know it for yourselves." That isn't possible. It must be known through release of the mind. It is important not to confuse the path with the goal. In the same vein the Buddha used the metaphor of "luminous" to describe the original state of the mind. Luminous doesn't mean that it is a thing or a person or an entity, it is just a metaphorical description. What it really means can't be known until enlightenment. It seems to me that your dispute is with the Buddha. You seem to believe that he has somehow contracted himself by using these two metaphors. Again, I don't know what to tell you. That is what he said. Metta, James Ps. I don't think that my experiences were Jhanas. I don't practice Jhana meditation. Actually, they were probably very similar to yours. In those cases, do you believe that something was added to your mind or do you believe that something was taken away, to make you see things such? 27496 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:25am Subject: A Reply to James Hi James, Thank you for replying to my letter, but I have somemore questions to tell you: I had read Philip's letter, when I read his question No.2 about killing. I knew that he had copied a comic book, the name of the comic book is called: Old Master Cue, it is a very populer comic. Well, the answer in the comic is like this: Old Master Cue is just trying to kill a fly, and he went past a woman who believed in Buddha said "We should not kill everything, we shouldn't kill." Then Old Master Cue said "Well, even germs we shouldn't kill?" The woman said "Yes" then Old Master Cue said "So when you are sick, you don't see doctor." Then he continued "Well like you these people should be killed!" Well I think Philip just wanted another answer! Well if you have time to write a reply to my letter, please write back. Janet 27497 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:27am Subject: What made the 5 people follow the Buddha? Dear James, Thankyou for the brilliant answers you told me. I was wondering what made the 5 people follow the Buddha and why? Who were the 5 people? I'm really looking forward to the answers! Take care! Metta, Sandy 27498 From: ashkenn2k Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:42am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James J: Both metaphors that the Buddha uses, "foam" and "luminous" are just metaphors. They are not literal descriptions of anything. It seems to me that you are taking them as literal descriptions and you have made up your mind as to what they mean. In the foam sutta, is the Buddha giving a description of anatta and absolute reality? No. He is just giving a strategy for his monks to follow that will lead to dispassion and enlightenment. Seeing things thus will lead to disenchantment, and disenchantment will lead to knowledge and release. The Buddha didn't say, " Listen monks and I will give you a description of anatta so that you will know it for yourselves." That isn't possible. It must be known through release of the mind. It is important not to confuse the path with the goal. k: James, if you look further down the sutta on the poem where he say "Form is like a glob of foam; feeling, a bubble; perception, a mirage; fabrications, a banana tree; consciousness, a magic trick this has been taught by the Kinsman of the Sun. However you observe them, appropriately examine them, they're empty, void to whoever sees them appropriately. " That is how he link the subject on his metaphor subjects with empty or anatta. I dont make up my mind on just one sutta. There are so many sutta on anatta. Maybe you will like the Sunna sutta or Anatta- lakkhana sutta. They carried the same meaning in different ways of presenting. Or what your describe different strategy leading to the same path. Sometimes direct (like Sunna Sutta, sometimes metaphor (like the Foam Sutta) but they carried the same meaning, same taste of liberation. If these suttas do not give a meaning of anatta then which sutta will. I have said anatta is a tricky subject. It is only able to describe by absence (not negative), a subtle and clever way of describling it without any hinge on an essence. J: In the same vein the Buddha used the metaphor of "luminous" to > describe the original state of the mind. Luminous doesn't mean that it is a thing or a person or an entity, it is just a metaphorical description. What it really means can't be known until enlightenment. k: As I say again there is no such thing as an original state of mind that mean we are all Buddha previously. Since we are Buddha previously, how do we become in this state. Then it also imply that hey what is the point of being Buddha bc we will to be back to this state again. So there is no orginal state of mind. If you equate a luminous as original state of mind - this will be incorrect. Also is this original state of mind - it is impermanent or permanent. If it is impermanent then why do we to reach it since it brings sorrow, if it is permanent then it should be atta not anatta. Or are you describing this original state of mind as Nibbana since we can't know it until we have reach it. Then Nibbana is in serious trouble bc Nibbana is unconditioning. It is the fruit of liberation from condition to uncondition. How does an unconditional Nibbana reside in a conditional mind. If it reside, then this Nibbana since unconditional will not be unchangeable by condition, it will mean it is a shadow, an underlying essence, it is atta. Dont sound congruent with Buddha stance. J: It seems to me that your dispute is with the Buddha. You seem to > believe that he has somehow contracted himself by using these two > metaphors. Again, I don't know what to tell you. That is what he > said. k: James its ok to have different views. I like to provide you views that are impermanent and anatta. No original mind, no pure mind whatsoever. J: Actually, they were probably very similar to yours. In those cases, do you believe that something was added to your mind or do you believe that something was taken away, to make you see things such? k: James things that make me see such are two: investigating of impermanence and also discernment of anatta as much as I could be mindful in my waking momments. (Whisper - Most of time I just indugle in sensual pleasure, habit are hard to break :) ) Warmest regards Ken O 27499 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: Howard: Jon, you asked me why I need to know *where* hardness is when it is not experienced (there being no actual rock in which to inhere) and yet supposedly has arisen along with an experienced sight (say) and other unexperienced rupas. My answer was that we need to know this to gain some reason to give credence to the claim of such a state of affairs, the arising of a rupa group that is unobservable except supposedly only by a Buddha (according to you, Ken) and that must be taken on faith. Even if this rupa-group claim were correct, the Buddha said to see for ourselves, and *not* accept due to authority, and, perhaps more importantly, why is *this* leaf in the forest among the few in the Buddha's hand?? Does one also need to know that water is two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen to make progress towards freedom? Jon: As far as I'm aware, this matter (the arising of rupas in groups) is not an aspect of the teachings that needs to be 'seen for ourselves' (i.e., proven as a fact by direct knowledge) at this stage. It is simply part of the general body of the scheme of things that we learn about. In this regard the Abhidhamma is no different from the suttas -- it is there to be understood intellectually at first, then reflected upon and so forth. Only the enlightened person has seen for himself everything that needs to be known directly. On the other hand, of course, no-one is suggesting that anything should be taken on faith. That would be of no use whatsoever. Perhaps the reason you have a problem giving credence to the Abhidhamma on the question of rupas arising in groups is that it conflicts with a view you already hold. I would be interested to know whether that view is something you have seen for yourself (or just something you are happy to give credence to). Jon 27500 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Ken O --- ashkenn2k wrote: > Hi Howard > > H: Your point is interesting and clever (in the best sense), Ken. > The > thing is: Why is it that the perfection of wisdom that comes with > full enlightenment never is rescinded? > > k: A good question. Once enlighment is reach, the wisdom is then > beyong conditioning. If Buddha wisdom is conditioned how is Buddha > going to expound the dhamma. Buddha standpoint is every clear > everything is conditioned and anatta. Until we reach enlightment > all is impermanent and anatta. As Sarah has said in her reply, nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma; all other dhammas, including panna, are conditioned. The reason why an arahant's wisdom is irreversible is that all latent tendencies for defilements have been eradicated completely. Until the first stage of enlightenment, latent tendencies of all the various defilements are passed on from one moment of consciousness to the next, so the potential for kilesa to arise and be further developed is still there. These latent tendencies are eradicated at the different stages of enlightenment until at arahantship they have all been eradicated. Thus although the arahant's panna is conditioned it is not capable of being reversed. Jon PS Enjoying your posts lately. 27501 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:00am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James . > > k: James, if you look further down the sutta on the poem where he > say > > "Form is like a glob of foam; > feeling, a bubble; > perception, a mirage; > fabrications, a banana tree; > consciousness, a magic trick > this has been taught > by the Kinsman of the Sun. > However you observe them, > appropriately examine them, > they're empty, void > to whoever sees them > appropriately. " > > That is how he link the subject on his metaphor subjects with empty > or anatta. I dont make up my mind on just one sutta. There are so > many sutta on anatta. Hi Ken, It seems that we keep going round and round on this subject. There is no direct clash because you keep repeating what you wrote previously. Even this stanza doesn't prove anything. It is a metaphor. If we want to get technical, foam and bubbles are not empty or void anyway. They contain oxygen; the pressure of the oxygen on the inside against the pressure of the oxygen outside is what makes them round. If they were truly empty and void, they would implode from the outside pressure of the oxygen. So you see, on one level you think you know exactly what the Buddha is describing, on another level it isn't so clear after all. Metaphors are like that; they are not to be taken literally. I don't think that I truly know what anatta is and I don't think that you do either. The only way to know is to become enlightened. Until then, it is important to keep an open mind. Finally, the Buddha describes the mind as luminous. That is his description, not mine. My mind, for the most part, is like `looking though a dark glass darkly' ;-). I don't know exactly what he means and I don't think you do either. The Abhidhamma leads people to believe they know far more than they actually do; that has been my biggest criticism of it thus far. Just keep an open mind. Metta, James 27502 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:56am Subject: Re: A Reply to James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > Thank you for replying to my letter, but I have > somemore questions to tell you: > > I had read Philip's letter, when I read his question > No.2 about killing. I knew that he had copied a comic > book, the name of the comic book is called: Old Master > Cue, it is a very populer comic. Well, the answer in > the comic is like this: Old Master Cue is just trying > to kill a fly, and he went past a woman who believed > in Buddha said "We should not kill everything, we > shouldn't kill." Then Old Master Cue said "Well, even > germs we shouldn't kill?" The woman said "Yes" then > Old Master Cue said "So when you are sick, you don't > see doctor." Then he continued "Well like you these > people should be killed!" > > Well I think Philip just wanted another answer! > Well if you have time to write a reply to my letter, > please write back. > > Janet Hi Star Kid Janet! Hehehe…okay. Thank you for this information. I don't think it really matters where Philip got the question, it is a good question. Since you don't have any questions I guess that is all I have to say! ;-). Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27503 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: What made the 5 people follow the Buddha? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the brilliant answers you told me. > > I was wondering what made the 5 people follow the > Buddha and why? > Who were the 5 people? > > I'm really looking forward to the answers! > > Take care! > Metta, Sandy Hi Star Kid Sandy! When the Buddha was looking for the answer to life's suffering, he had gone deep into the woods to practice austerities with five ascetics. Austerities means that he tried to deny his body all physical comforts whatsoever: he starved himself, didn't bathe, didn't wear clothes, didn't have shelter, meditated/practiced Yoga all day, etc. He was very spiritually advanced so these five ascetics became his followers. However, after several years of this practice he still couldn't find the answer to what he was seeking. Realizing that this practice didn't give him the answer, he found the Middle Way of practice: not denying oneself comforts of all types but not indulging in comforts that are unnecessary either. He began to eat, bathe, wear a robe, etc.. The other ascetics, when they saw him doing this, rejected him as their leader. He didn't care though; he only wanted to find the truth. After regaining his strength, and with the power of his mind, he meditated for seven days and promised himself that he would find the answer to life's suffering or die trying. On the seventh day he became enlightened, he became the Buddha. When he went back to see those five ascetics who had been his followers previously, they knew right away that he had found the answer they had all been seeking. He taught them how he had done it and helped them all to become enlightened also. They were his first disciples. Hope this answers your question. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27504 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 8:21am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Dear James James:" The Abhidhamma leads people to > believe they know far more than they actually do; that has been my > biggest criticism of it thus far." ------------------------------------------------------------------- That´s the right and sure point about The Abhidhamma, James! This Pitaka is perhaps THE definitive masterpiece of all Buddhism, but all possible cittas and cetasikas and so on ordered, classified and measured from Dhammasangani to Patthanapali won´t take you along the Noble Path by itself. Take any sutta of the Sutta Nipata, or the Lotus Sutra, for example: whatever it can be,it has the same insights and conceptual structures of all buddhist scriptures, as the own Abhidhamma: but the proper decision to take the Noble Truths and boldly step on the Right Path belongs only to you. Always and ever! Getting the Abhidhamma as a Theoretical Corpus without the right approach to Daily Life is only a futile scholasticism, in my humble opinion! Hooray for Nina Van Gorkon!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------ James:" Just keep an open mind." ----------------------------------------------------------------- Always and ever, James! Mettaya, Ícaro 27505 From: Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, Ken - In a message dated 11/29/03 3:05:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > > H: Sunlight naturally lights up whatever moves along the surface of > the earth unless it is obscured by a cloud cover. When the clouds > part a little, there is some visibility, when they part more, there > is increased visibility, and when they disperse entirely, then there > is complete visibility. Insights do come and go - they are the > content of various mindstates that come and go. When defilements > (obscurations) are weakened, due to some degree of > >awakening or by being held in abeyance by strong mindfulness and > concentration, energetic investigation can result in (relatively) > clear seeing, and an "insight" arises. An insight is a moment of > clear seeing, a peeking through the darkness by a ray of light, a > moment of relatively normal functioning. When defilements are > >gone fully, all discernment is without obscuration. > > k: Howard, that is again I think you are refering something behind > the back. A presence which I think anatta trying to dispell. Anatta > is a very tricky word - to me it is an absence of a self - but it > does not point to another self, or to another presence bc all such > pointing of another presence will mean we will cling to it, and this > will leading to suffering. It is just anatta - a state beyond > conditioned mind. We know that Anatta is the word that separates > Buddhism and with many teachers at that time. Some of them do spoke > about impermenant but they point to a presence. This is what Buddha > trying to dispell, any presence will bring a whole mass of > sufferings. An absence of presence is the key. Buddha never used a > word to describe this presence bc he knows any description will make > us cling to it. He leave it as neither existent nor non existent (a > very clever man) > > ============================= I know what you mean about "something behind the back," but that is not how I mean this. The functioning I'm talking about is the usual functioning of vi~n~nana and sa~n~na, but without impediments. I'm not presuming some eternal, substantial, "pure consciousness thing" lurking in the background at all. The "light" I speak of is just cognitive functioning, and when it is not obscured, everything works as it should. Please don't let my metaphors mislead rather than help. Depite the negative prefix, avijja is the *presence* of defilements, obscurations to mental functioning, and with the removal of the defilements, the mental functioning is no longer disorted, and can be positively described as vijja or pa~n~na. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27506 From: Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/29/03 8:33:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Perhaps the reason you have a problem giving credence to the > Abhidhamma on the question of rupas arising in groups is that it > conflicts with a view you already hold. I would be interested to > know whether that view is something you have seen for yourself (or > just something you are happy to give credence to). > > =========================== No, I don't think so. My problem is that I see the rupa-group notion as a claim without explanation. First of all, if all the rupas of a group are inexperiencible, then the claim is, in principle, untestable, and requires acceptance on faith. I have no reason to believe the claim, and the lack of actual existence of conventional objects such as rocks, a lack accepted by both of us, is a big part of the problem here. If the rupas arise other than merely as objects of consciousness, which would have to be the case with the entire group arising at one time but only one rupa of the group experienced, it is reasonable to wonder *where and in what sense they arise*. I see both a phenomenalist scheme and a world-of-conventional-objects scheme, as possibly providing a basis for the rupa-group notion, but each has its problems, and if neither of these schemes is accepted, then I see no basis for the rupa-group notion. (The phenomenalist scheme *might* account for unexperienced rupas arising provided that it accepts the occurrence of parallel, subliminal experiencing along with active, surface-level vi~n~nana, but without that, I don't even see how phenomenalism accounts for this business. And the world-of-conventional-objects scheme, while serving rather well as an explanation, is acceptable to neither of us.) Taking neither of these as perspective, I don't even understand what it *means* for the unexperienced rupas to arise. I don't know what it *means*, for example, for an unexperienced hardness or sight to arise.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27507 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Sarah and all, Regarding the idea "clinging to wholesome states", you provided references from the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but not from the discourses. So the question remains: Is the problem, if there is indeed such a problem, "clinging to wholesome states" or any of its examples addressed in the discourses? If it is addressed in the discourses, how is it addressed? The question Where did you get the idea that Dhamma-Vinaya only refers to the discourses? is a whole different issue. I wrote about my impression on Abhidhamma Pitaka in message#27190 in response to Sukin: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/27190 As far as I am concerned, whether I accept Abhidhamma Pitaka or not has nothing to do with whether the idea "clinging to wholesome states" or any of its examples is addressed in the discourses. Regarding your advice to consider whether there is any attachment to wholesome states, I don't see it as grounded on the Buddha's teaching. On the other hand, I do see that sensuality/sensual pleasures and attachment to sensuality/sensual pleasures are addressed in many discourses. From my personal experience and understanding, I see that attachment to sensuality/sensual pleasures is unwholesome, unskillful, that sensuality/sensual pleasures has drawback. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27508 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:51am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 03 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Samsara or the wheel of life has been rotating indefinitely. As Sattas ( beings ) do not realize realities ( Paramattha Dhamma ), they are cultivating new and new Kamma on daily basis and even at most of mind moments. As Kamma are arising, they dictate to arise their specific resultant Dhamma according to the law of Kamma. Lives have to exist as Kamma dictate ,and in this way the Samsara or wheel of life is endlessly rotating. To stop the wheel or to get through the Samsara is not to cultivate any new Kamma. This is only possible at the moment of arising of Arahatta Magga and thereafter. Before we attain Arahatta Magga Nana, we will be cultivating Kamma seeds through performing good and bad actions. We can at least stop most of bad actions by strictly keeping Sila or moral conduct. Through Sila, most bad actions will be under control if Sila is kept to its purest form. Even though there are many kinds of Sila, 5 precepts will at least help attaining higher Nana in lay people. Sila alone is not enough in preventing doing bad things. Sattas may be doing bad things unapparently and inconspicuously in their mind. Most unnotice this phenomenon that they are committing bad Kamma in their mind. Even though most immoral actions have been under control, there are still ongoing cultivation of bad Kamma by proliferating in their mind. These have to be knocked down with a good concentration or Samadhi. Samadhi can be obtained through the practice of meditation. Just concentration or Samadhi is still not enough if there is no Vijja Nana or penetrative wisdom. This can only be attained through the practice of Vipassana meditation. Vipassana meditation is the practice of Mahasatipatthana, which is a special mindfulness or Sati on Dhamma matter. Mahasatipatthana is not just a simple Sati. This Cetasika Sati has different names in Vipassana meditation. Sati is one of component of Cetasikas that work as Bodhipekkhiya Dhamma in endeavouring to attain higher Panna through Vipassana meditation. Practising Vipassana meditation will help the meditator understand the realities through Vipassana Nana or wisdom. If realities are DIRECTLY realized, new Kamma will not be cultivated. This will totally stop arising of linking consciousness or Patisandhi Citta. Then the wheel of life is stopped to rotate and the Satta concerned gets through the Samsara. May all beings practise Vipassana meditation in order to get through the Samsara. With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Moderator / JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 27509 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 10:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 3 b sanna. Hi Nina, This is a fine distinction but I agree. Identification and recognition are different. I notice that B. Bodhi defines sakkaaya as identity in SN. I take this to mean "identity" is specifically associated with the idea of permanence. To recognize Jon is simply to match this appearance with that appearance. To identify Jon is to think this appearance is the same appearance as that appearance. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry, > op 27-11-2003 19:14 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > > The Vis. quotes here from the Path of Discrimination: > feeling being cetasikas... , these things are bound up with citta and > > are mind functions.> > > > > I wonder if we could say perception (sanna) is identification? > N: It is recognition or remembrance. It marks the object or remembers it. It > accompanies each citta experiencing objects through the six doors. Also > seeing. When it arises with seeing it does not identify or define seeing. I > do not think this word fits in connection with sanna. > Nina. 27510 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:12am Subject: Re: Concentration and samatha Hi Jon, The question is, can you notice the difference between eye consciousness and ear consciousness irrespective of the difference between visible data and sound? In other words, we are looking at consciousness as an object of consciousness. I have been looking more closely into this and I have noticed that the closer I look, the less I see. The only "nama" I can be definitely conscious of is bodily feeling. That doesn't sound right. What's going on here?? Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Larry > > As I think I mentioned in a previous post, among the 121 different > cittas are some that have exactly the same combination of cetasikas > (for example, the 10 vipaka cittas are each accompanied by the 7 > 'universal' cetasikas only). > > To my understanding, the different cittas are different in respects > other than just the accompanying cetasikas. While they have in > common the characteristic of being chief in experiencing their > object, they also have an individual characteristic that makes them > distinct from each other. Seeing consciousness sees visible-object; > it cannot experience sound, and so on. > > Jon 27511 From: Larry Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:38am Subject: Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Sarah and all, > > Regarding the idea "clinging to wholesome states", you provided > references from the Abhidhamma Pitaka, but not from the discourses. > So the question remains: > Is the problem, if there is indeed such a problem, "clinging to > wholesome states" or any of its examples addressed in the > discourses? > > If it is addressed in the discourses, how is it addressed? Hi Victor, I recently read in a sutta (which I now can't find) that the Buddha said there could be clinging to neutral feeling, which is characterized as "peaceful". The antidote to this is to notice that neutral feeling is impermanent. The argument Sarah gave, that any dhamma (except nibbana) could be an object of a desirous consciousness, seems reasonable to me. The main qualification would be the difference between an object of consciousness and a cetasika that accompanies consciousness. Desire cannot _accompany_ a consciousness that is accompanied by a wholesome volition. You can't enter jhana with desire but you could desire jhana immediately after it has ceased in the general window of what is called "the present". Of course one could desire the concept of jhana or even nibbana, but that is slightly different, though more often the case. Larry 27512 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 0:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Dear Sarah Respectfully butting in... ------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:"so let me introduce you to > some straight Abhidhamma from the Pa.t.thaana, the book of Conditional > Relations*. > > As you know, there are 24 conditions by which all conditioned states > arise, including `clinging' or attachment (lobha). The first condition is > root condition. Without the root of lobha, it cannot arise. The second > condition is object condition:" --------------------------------------------------------------- Today we are reaching fully at the apple core! In my Abhidhamma readings, I have even kept the mental image of a "Supermarket of many kinds of Wholesome Consciousness" at certain passages of Pathaana. At the Pathaana you get the 24 Paccayas and their combinations with Kusala and Akusala, Hetu and Ahetu Dhammas, almost as goodies on a market stand, ready to get catched up for anyone interested. You can get it all at the alobha side, and reach the Buddha´s viewpoint that even such marvelous Dhammas are essentially Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta. Only Nibbana is the Dhamma that stands at the other shore! ------------------------------------------------------------------ sarah: "(...)why not consider whether there is any attachment to > wholesome states over the Thanksgiving weekend." ---------------------------------------------------------------- Good Idea!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------- Sarah:" Thank you again for conditioning these further reflections;-) > > With metta, > > Sarah > > * "But when, coming to the Great Book (the Pa.t.thaana), he began to > contemplate the twenty-four universal causal relations of condition, of > presentation, and so on, his [the Buddha's] omniscience certainly found > its opportunity therein. For as the great fish Rimiratipin'ngala finds > room only in the great ocean eighty-four thousand yojanas in depth, so his > omniscience truly finds room only in the Great Book." (Introductory > Discourse, Atthasaalini)." --------------------------------------------------------------------- So mote will be...snif! Snif! Mettaya, Ícaro 27513 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Larry, At this point, my question is: Is the problem, if there is indeed such a problem, "clinging to wholesome states" or any of its examples addressed in the discourses? And If it is addressed in the discourses, how is it addressed? I don't know exactly what you read in the discourse. I would suggest you provide some quote and reference so others can examine it. Thanks. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Larry" wrote: [snip] 27514 From: Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 4:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Victor, Here is a example of clinging to wholesome states. Larry http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn106.html When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to the Blessed One: "There is the case, lord, where a monk, having practiced in this way -- 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' -- obtains equanimity. Now, would this monk be totally unbound, or not?" "A certain such monk might, Ananda, and another might not.' "What is the cause, what is the reason, whereby one might and another might not?" "There is the case, Ananda, where a monk, having practiced in this way -- (thinking) 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' -- obtains equanimity. He relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it. As he relishes that equanimity, welcomes it, remains fastened to it, his consciousness is dependent on it, is sustained by it (clings to it). With clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is not totally unbound." "Being sustained, where is that monk sustained?" "The dimension of neither perception nor non-perception." "Then, indeed, being sustained, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance." "Being sustained, Ananda, he is sustained by the supreme sustenance; for this -- the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception -- is the supreme sustenance. There is [however] the case where a monk, having practiced in this way -- 'It should not be, it should not occur to me; it will not be, it will not occur to me. What is, what has come to be, that I abandon' -- obtains equanimity. He does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it. As does not relish that equanimity, does not welcome it, does not remain fastened to it, his consciousness is not dependent on it, is not sustained by it (does not cling to it). Without clinging/sustenance, Ananda, a monk is totally unbound." 27515 From: Carl Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 5:57pm Subject: Re: New Member --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Nice to have you here Carl, > The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities(paramattha > dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only > conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the > shadow of what is really there. > RobertK > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > (...Snip)Anyway, I find > it appealing that "reality" may depend upon and be born by "non- > > reality". I am sure I must have my wires crossed somewhere :) > > It is an honor to be here. Carl c7: Thank you Robert for your welcome and response to my ponderings. And thank all of you for your kind welcomes. Blue! Welcome to you also and Thanks. It may be the wet/dry Lotus that causes me wonderment. Perhaps I can be more lucid? You got your "paramattha dhammas" over here and over there you got your "conventional realities". Well, to me, it seems all convoluted, in that "paramattha dhammas" are only known by "conventional realities" and "conventional realities" are merely an imaginary shadow of "paramattha dhammas". i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = (No dance). It seems as two extremes to me (paramatthma dhammas Vs conventional reality). So perhaps the middle way is, as new member "Blue" offered, the way of the Lotus? Neither wet nor dry, but just a Lotus? Anyway, I like the feeling of being convoluted! Reality depending on unreality depending on reality depending on......... Again, thanks for all the welcomes. This is indeed a place for me to learn and study in depth the Dhamma. Just a little more about me. I am married, Living in the USA, Retired, 60 years old, Overweight, been a Buddhapup for about 10 years, started "consciousness training" about thirty five years ago through many self-help psyc paperbacks. I am methodical, analyitical, a poor speller and a rather slow learner. I have particapated in other Buddhist boards in the past. And awww heck! I just posted my picture. It is wonderful to see the members pictures posted for this group. I hope all members would be interested in posting their picture! Thanks c7carl 27516 From: Egberdina Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 6:31pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Hi Jon, As a general statement, I think we are discussing the idea of learning / teaching from two very different perspectives. I accept that in a conventional sense, learning is the acquiring of a conceptual framework. But I do not think this applies to Buddhism learning. Learning in a Buddhist sense is not an acquiring, but an undoing, a getting rid of conceptual frameworks. However, to achieve the same status / state as the Buddha, one doesn't go about getting what he got, or getting rid of what he got rid of. To get rid of what the Buddha got rid of, we would first need to acquire that. To reach the state of the Buddha we need to become aware of what *WE* believe, not what we believe the Buddha believed. I would not say that the thrust of the Buddha's example and teaching is development or evolution. For me, the opposite is true. The Buddha's teaching as a whole does not exist as such. Specific insights are applied in specific circumstances to cut through specific thickets of belief. The Buddha's example and teaching does not set out to replace an overall incorrect conceptual framework with an overall correct conceptual framework. That would be insanity. I accept a place for the suttas , the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. There is no limit to what can function as a trigger for a moment of insight. But the touchstone for what is happening at this moment is never a book. What is happening at this moment can never be described in words. To describe in words what is happening at this moment is to loose this moment. The moment instead becomes those words. Such moments have no reality. I don't doubt that the Buddha spoke when he thought it could cut through some specific thicket. That is quite different to believing that the Buddha can speak directedly to anyone through a book. To believe that it is possible to find out what is happening at this moment through the written words of another is stretching it a bit. With regards to what I believe we should do: 1]As little as possible. 2]Do not select what will be your teacher. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > I know what you mean when you speak about the Buddha's example. > However, this raises an interesting question: should we look > primarily to the Buddha's example, or should we pay more attention to > what he had to say about how he got to where he did, or how we can > achieve (in part) what he has experienced? > > A person wishing to attain to the status, wealth or ability of > another will not get far by trying to emulate that other person's > actions as a person of status, wealth or ability. It is the means by > which that person got where he did that will need to be known and > applied. > > BTW, you say the Buddha preferred silence to speech; nonetheless, he > spent an awful lot of time expounding the teachings to others, and > urging those others to listen more. He must have thought such > talking and listening to be worthwhile. > > Jon > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > There is no need to reject the suttas. They are stories, and > > understanding that they are stories is enough. There is no > > hierarchy > > amongst stories. There are no "good" stories and "bad" stories, > > or "true" stories and "false" stories. They do not have a life of > > their own. There is no need to pass judgment on stories. A story , > > any story, becomes unravelled with awareness. > > > > Awareness does not need expounding. It does not need clarification. > > > > It does not need thinking about. Commentaries to awareness do one > > thing, and that is to kill it. > > > > I need not learn to speak English, Bantu, or Pali, in order to be > > silent. The stories of the Buddha that I have read tell me that he > > preferred silence to speech, inertness to activity. > > > > Silence requires no conceptual framework. Neither does knowing. > > Knowing arises when it does, and ceases when it does. > > > 27517 From: Carl Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:26pm Subject: Re: More questions for James --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > James: > ....(snip)............ > 2. The Buddha says that we shouldn't kill, even the > insects and small animals, because they are all living > creatures. But if we don't kill the germs and insects, > our food and drinking water would be polluted, and > human beings would be extinct. What kind of philosophy > is this? > Philip Hi Philip, thought i'd just comment on your excellent question. First, about the extinction of human beings.... So what? We become extinct... big deal! Now about the critters and disease and killing. This story helped me alot: There was a community of learning monks that were taught to revere life and would not kill any living creature. The creatures took up residence in the bathroom. Spiders, flys, crawling bugs. It was moist there and attracted all kinds of crawling and flying creatures.. A great place for critters to live (especially the spiders). Fungus grew upon the walls and served as hiding places for many creatures. It became a home for any crawling creature that needed a home. Needles to say, having to go to the bathroom was not a pleasent experience for the student monks. Many monks were bitten, caught diseases or recieved rashes from the creatures that lived in the bathroom. When the teachers of the student monks began to notice the sickness,disease and rashes on the students the teachers asked, why are you sick? We see rashes, disease and swollen bites on and in your bodies. You student monks seem most unclean. Then it was explained to the teachers that the bathroom was the cause of their diseases, swollen bites and rashes. And they insisted that they were not unclean and not to blame for their unclean conditions. For they had been taught not to kill. At this point the teacher picked up a bamboo stick and began beating the students saying, ........such fools as you!!! get into that bathroom and clean it up! Sweep the walls, scour the floors, scrub the toilets and sinks. There was no mention of killing. Cleaning the bathroom was the only intention. 27518 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 7:30pm Subject: Re: New Member "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > Nice to have you here Carl, > > The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities(paramattha > > dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only > > conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the > > shadow of what is really there. > > -------- > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > c7: Thank you Robert for your welcome and response to my ponderings. > > Perhaps I can be more lucid? You got your "paramattha dhammas" over > here and over there you got your "conventional realities". Well, > to me, it seems all convoluted, in that "paramattha dhammas" are > only known by "conventional realities" and "conventional realities" > are merely an imaginary shadow of "paramattha dhammas". ______________ Thanks for putting up your photo Carl. When the texts say that person or being are only conventionally true it means that they have no reality at all, they are only useful as terms to represent the five khnadhas "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common usage."(samyutta I, 135) These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata makes use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. The suttas often use such words as I and my and man, woman, and we can too, but we need to know that they are mere concepts. "Such forms as woman or man are local forms of speech. ..In those who have not fully understood what a physical base is there comes to be the misinterpretation "this is really a woman.."But since this is mere concept, which depends on states made to occur in such ans such a wise , one who sees and knows the dependent origination does not interpret it as ultimate meaning"Note 4 visud. vii (pm) ---------------------- > i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? > Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. > It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = > (No dance). _______ I appreciate your questions Carl and so I give a detailed answer. In the Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case the valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact[comes to be]; with contact as condition feeling'. Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna searching for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who has sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom there are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, cut off at the root...."endquote. Thus there is no I who experiences hardness but rather because of conditions coming together there is the experience of hardness. This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then falling away again. Because the conditions that make up each moment are often similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga xviii31 The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of paticcasamuppada. Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. But there are only different elements performing different functions - and they have no agenda: "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 This is deep Dhamma that can only be heard during the time of a Buddhasasana. RobertK 27519 From: nordwest Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 0:12pm Subject: Correlation of the Self, the Mind, Consciousness and Enlightenment Correlation of the Self, the Mind, Consciousness and Enlightenment The Mind has different levels of consciouness: The grosser levels, which are easy to see for us. The subtle levels are well hidden, some can be seen in meditation, or when you have attained some of the many samadhis (constant mediative concentration levels). The Mind has the pure consciouness, a very different consiousness than the bodily one, because only it has the potential to enable the Mind to perfect enlightenment. This potential is often called the "buddha-nature." IN my opinion the buddha-nature is not a conscious level, but only the potential to become a buddha, but tis is a personal definiton maybe. So let us not go into discussion this please. It's only words, and they don't come easy with such terms. The Dalai Lama for example says, that the grosser andsubtle levels all die away in death, and that there only "the being" stays. This is, for me, a not very satisfying answer/definiton. This very Buddha-Nature-Consciouness is not defiled from the patterns of habits of the Mind, it stays pure, but is limited to the Mind and it's thoughts. This iswhy all masters would say, that the Buddha nature is the only thing which doesn't change. And of course we all know the buddhas words, "This is real, which is not subjet to change." So, again, this is the Pure Consciouness. The mind itself may be defiled, but this very very subtle level of consciouness remains clear. The perception of everything is doen with this Pure Consciouness. Theyes, mouth, ears, ...all your senses, are entirely useless. So why do we have ears and eyes then? We havecreated those bodily senses out of our wrong indentification with the body. Again, the mind creates the environment, which is empty and the body which is empty too. The body is a creation in accordance with the spiritual limitations of mind, based on the individual karma. The mind is: Thoughts, habits, various grosser and subtle levels of bodily consciouness, the pure consciouness whit its buddha-nature. The Self is: The Mind. -- Nothing else, but the Mind with all its components. Some of the components are matter of change. Those ones can be eradicated, like in the process of death. So the process of death is similiar to a radical enlightenment process. Unfortunately the habits stay the mind due to karmic bondage. And so the mind isunable to free itself in death. What happens in enlightenment: (1) We try to stop the coarse thinking. This is control over the habits, daily things. This habit-Thinking is nothing but grosser levels of consciouness. (2) We also try in mediation to make the subtle levels stop to move. It is the stopping of the thinking in subtle ways. Those are visions, subtle habits, the ego, bondage to the bodily senses etc. (3) As soon as the grosser and subtle levels become less active, this we may can the wonde of samadhi - similiar to a constant meditation all day long - the Mind is enabled to perceive the world how it really is. It stops believing in the bodily senses and turns over to conscious perception, which is our natural way of perception. Again, this is done by the Pure Consciouness. Thus it becomes little by little the Pure Mind. (4) Seeing the world with the six senses of the Pure Mind is pure Enlightenment. What is the Self then? It is The Pure Mind with the pure consciouness. This is the original Self. You may say, it is stripped down to what it originally was, namely PURE. The confusion we have in definitons is, as I see it, that we see no "not-changing-thing" within ourselves, because we believe that we perceive the world thorugh the bodily senses. Actaully we really think that the eyes enable us to see colors, which is most ridiculous, because in meditation we close our eyes and yet still see memories and pictures. This proves that the dream state is the same illusion as the awake state. Both are created by the mind, in thoughts, and the senses are no instrument of perception at all. Only our deep believe in the bodily senses limits our conscious perception of this, what is. Gassho, Thomas 27520 From: rahula_80 Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Islam and Buddhism Hi, I would like to bring to your attention of the book, "Islam and Buddhism" by Harun Yahya, a well known Muslim preacher. The book is also available online. http://www.hyahya.org/buddhism01.php I am hoping that a Buddhist(s) especialy those who are interested in comparative religions studies between Buddhism and Islam, would come forward to clarify the misunderstanding / misrepresentations found in that book. Truly yours, Rahula 27522 From: Carl Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:11pm Subject: Phonetic Glossary How do i pronounce Pali! I need a glossory that is phonetic. I may never understand pali. But if i could be firm in my enuncation of Pali it would be cool. I just want to know how to say the word. Not a Pali glossary, just a simple pronunciation of that glossery. ...c7 27523 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard You said: <> I think you have put your finger on the nub of the matter here, Howard. It is the issue of Rupas as present object of consciousness vs. Rupas as dhammas that arise in this plane of existence regardless of whether they are object of someone's experience via one of the 5 sense-doors. I do understand your concern about whether the latter can be directly known by us, but I frankly don’t see how that affects the bigger question of whether or not that is in fact the way things are. As I've said before, if your position is simply that it is unknowable by you or me at our present level of development (which I agree with), that would not in itself be any basis for doubting the truth of the assertion if made by, for example, the Buddha. Hence my suggestion that you perhaps hold some views to the contrary. As to what it means for rupas to arise in this plane of existence, consider the rupas that we take for our body. At any given moment (including this very moment) most of those rupas, for example, the ones we take for our internal organs, or the back of our head, are not the object of anyone's 5 sense-door consciousness. Yet do they not still arise? According to the teachings, they are conditioned by one or more of the 4 conditions of kamma, citta, temperature and nutriment, and by virtue of that condition/those conditions they arise (or not) regardless. Does this strike you as not being credible? The alternative scenario is that the rupas we take for our body arise only when they are the object of someone's consciousness. As I understand that proposition, this would mean that, for example, the rupas we take for Howard cease to arise entirely in this plane of existence whenever that bundle of rupas-taken-as-Howard is in a deep sleep alone in a room, and would only resume arising when 'he' awoke or when someone came into the room. Does this seem to you the more credible of the 2 alternatives? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Howard: ... My problem is that I see the rupa-group notion as a claim without explanation. First of all, if all the rupas of a group are inexperiencible, then the claim is, in principle, untestable, and requires acceptance on faith. I have no reason to believe the claim, and the lack of actual existence of conventional objects such as rocks, a lack accepted by both of us, is a big part of the problem here. If the rupas arise other than merely as objects of consciousness, which would have to be the case with the entire group arising at one time but only one rupa of the group experienced, it is reasonable to wonder *where and in what sense they arise*. I see both a phenomenalist scheme and a world-of-conventional-objects scheme, as possibly providing a basis for the rupa-group notion, but each has its problems, and if neither of these schemes is accepted, then I see no basis for the rupa-group notion. (The phenomenalist scheme *might* account for unexperienced rupas arising provided that it accepts the occurrence of parallel, subliminal experiencing along with active, surface-level vi~n~nana, but without that, I don't even see how phenomenalism accounts for this business. And the world-of-conventional-objects scheme, while serving rather well as an explanation, is acceptable to neither of us.) Taking neither of these as perspective, I don't even understand what it *means* for the unexperienced rupas to arise. I don't know what it *means*, for example, for an unexperienced hardness or sight to arise.) With metta, Howard 27524 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Larry, Sarah, and all, Yes, the Buddha indeed taught about emerging from grosser meditative states and entering into more refine one. I would like to draw your attention to the following discourses. Anguttara Nikaya IX.41 Tapussa Sutta To Tapussa http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-041.html Anguttara Nikaya IX.35 Gavi Sutta The Cow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-035.html Note that in both discourses, the Buddha described a progression in attaining meditative states. Each meditative state does provide sustenance. As an analogy: Think of enjoying sensual pleasures such as enjoying watching shows, listening to music, smelling perfume, eating delicious food, having sex etc as playing in mud. That is what majority of the people in the world like to do: enjoy sensual pleasures, or metaphorically, playing in mud. And they don't realize that the mud is unclean, dirty. Think of a ladder leading out of the mud. Climbing the ladder is like practicing meditation. Holding on to the rungs and reaching a certain height above the mud is like attaining a certain meditative state. And to climb the ladder out of the mud, one has to hold on to the rungs. The higher one can climb, the higher the meditative state one can attain. The rungs do support one on the ladder. However, being on the ladder is by no mean the final safety just like being in any meditative state is by no mean the final Unbinding: It is impossible for one to hold on to the rungs forever. To reach to safety, one could either climb all the way up the ladder or miss the last couple rungs if one is sure of reaching to safety. Climbing takes work and might not be easy!! However, joy and pleasure comes with elevated views. To reach safety, one needs to climb up the ladder. To climb up, one needs to hold onto the rung firmly before one lets go of it to reach the next higher rung. As the final safety is reached, the ladder is let go of. So if the wholesome states refer to the meditative states, then what is the connotation of the idea "clinging to wholesome states"? Shall one not climb the ladder at all and just stay in the mud? Or shall one climb the ladder out of the mud by holding onto the rung firmly before letting go of it to reach the next higher rung? In other words, shall one not to practice meditation at all and just keep being attached to sensual pleasures? Or shall one renounce sensual pleasures and meditate, firmly established in one meditative state before moving on to the next higher one? The analogy is by no mean perfect. However, I want to use it to illustrate an aspect of progression in meditative practice as well as the relationship between meditation and sensual pleasures. Thank you for the reference. It prompted me to look into what the Buddha taught on meditative practice. Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > Hi Victor, [snip] 27525 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James > > It seems that we keep going round and round on this subject. There > is no direct clash because you keep repeating what you wrote > previously. Even this stanza doesn't prove anything. It is a > metaphor. If we want to get technical, foam and bubbles are not > empty or void anyway. They contain oxygen; the pressure of the > oxygen on the inside against the pressure of the oxygen outside is > what makes them round. If they were truly empty and void, they > would implode from the outside pressure of the oxygen. So you see, on one level you think you know exactly what the Buddha is describing, on another level it isn't so clear after all. Metaphors are like that; they are not to be taken literally. I don't think that I truly know what anatta is and I don't think that you do either. The only way to know is to become enlightened. Until then, it is important to keep an open mind. > k: You are right to say we should keep an open mind. Hmm okay forget about this foam sutta as it keeps a metaphor, how about the other two sutta I quote to you. One can only truly understand anatta only when one reach supramundane stage (to be techinically correct bc I was question by two person - so dont want to be qn again). When you understand Anatta, the whole concept of Buddhism will change. Your faith of dhamma suddenly grow tremenduously and you will smile bc you realise that Buddha is really supreme in wisdom. And also you will realise all are just conditions :) and then you realise that you dont need to qn the Abdhidhamma and ancient commentaries anymore. To me it is the most effective knife that cuts the root of moha. j: Finally, the Buddha describes the mind as luminous. That is his > description, not mine. My mind, for the most part, is like > `looking though a dark glass darkly' ;-). I don't know exactly what he means and I don't think you do either. The Abhidhamma leads people to believe they know far more than they actually do; that has been my biggest criticism of it thus far. Just keep an open mind. k: One of the impression Abdhidhamma gives its reader that don't understand it, "hey this sound like a engineer textbook, Buddhist text should be simple to read like the sutta." Honestly speaking, I have a Abdhidhamma book called "A Book of Analysis" - it is so technical that I always fall asleep reading it, hence I have give up reading it. I prefer its commentary (Dispeller of Delusion) which is much more readable. k: Only as you say, lets have an open mind. forget about the commentary, let relook at the sutta again. Buddha said "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind." Luminious means that the *color* of the mind is radiant. It just describe a *color* just like fire is red. It does not imply any other thing. It is defile by incoming defilements means it is being affected by unwholesome factors (lobha etc). In other words. it just said the mind which is luminious is now being defile by defilements - an unwholesome state of mind. "The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present" means no mindfulness hence no development of the mind "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. Again Buddha say luminious is the mind - simple and straight forward. It just hey the mind is radiant, thats all. The second sentence means it is a wholesome state bc an absence of defilements could mean a wholesome state of mind. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." - means mindfulness - there is development of the mind k: I asked you, is there in any sentence in this sutta say that the mind is pure in the first place or it is pointing to an orignal state of mind. It just say luminiuos is the mind - just the color of the mind, no other connotation. Luminous does not mean pure, it only means illuminated, radiant, or shiny. Any color can be luminous. Furthermore, the sutta states clearly that this luminious mind can be defiled means it can be affected by defilements, what can be affected is conditioned, what is conditioned is impermanent. Therefore it will mean the sutta is not saying any thing about a pure mind or an orginal state mind as both such minds are supposedly to be unconditional. Kind regards Ken O 27526 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Larry To my understanding, the characteristic of dhammas cannot be seen by doing what you describe here. No amount of looking at things will unveil the true nature of dhammas; only the arising of sati/panna can achieve this. The conditions for that arising do not include the intention to examine things more closely. That kind of conventional 'effort' is not the effort of right effort. We should not expect that book knowledge/intellectual understanding of, for example, the difference between different kinds of consciousness will allow us to directly perceive those differences. We need to be true to ourselves in terms of the extent to which sati and panna have been developed to date and, accordingly, what information has direct application for us in that regard and what information is useful as 'background briefing' only. To answer your question then, for me it's pretty much all background briefing stuff;-)). Jon --- Larry wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The question is, can you notice the difference between eye > consciousness and ear consciousness irrespective of the difference > between visible data and sound? In other words, we are looking at > consciousness as an object of consciousness. I have been looking > more > closely into this and I have noticed that the closer I look, the > less > I see. The only "nama" I can be definitely conscious of is bodily > feeling. That doesn't sound right. What's going on here?? > > Larry 27527 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Nov 29, 2003 11:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Herman I don’t want to spoil your Sunday, but I think we are largely in agreement here. Especially, I agree with you on the danger of replacing one conceptual framework with another. I believe that the conceptual framework we hold to can be displaced only insofar as things (dhammas) come to be seen as they truly are. Regarding your final paragraph, I believe that progress in seeing things as they truly are comes not by doing but by understanding, and that what is to be understood is some aspect (i.e., any aspect, without selection) of the present moment. But, and this may be our main difference, I believe the conditions under which that understanding can arise are quite specific and need to be understood intellectually in the first place if there is to be any chance of them being fulfilled. This to me is where the teaching of the Buddha comes in. I do not think we are smart enough to figure this game out on our own, whatever the present level of our progress along the path. Look forward to hearing you further on any points of disagreement. Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > As a general statement, I think we are discussing the idea of > learning / teaching from two very different perspectives. I accept > that in a conventional sense, learning is the acquiring of a > conceptual framework. > > But I do not think this applies to Buddhism learning. Learning in a > Buddhist sense is not an acquiring, but an undoing, a getting rid > of conceptual frameworks. > > However, to achieve the same status / state as the Buddha, one > doesn't go about getting what he got, or getting rid of what he got > rid of. To get rid of what the Buddha got rid of, we would first > need to acquire that. To reach the state of the Buddha we need to > become aware of what *WE* believe, not what we believe the Buddha > believed. > > I would not say that the thrust of the Buddha's example and > teaching > is development or evolution. For me, the opposite is true. The > Buddha's teaching as a whole does not exist as such. > Specific insights are applied in specific circumstances to cut > through specific thickets of belief. The Buddha's example and > teaching does not set out to replace an overall incorrect > conceptual > framework with an overall correct conceptual framework. That would > be insanity. > > I accept a place for the suttas , the Abhidhamma and the > commentaries. There is no limit to what can function as a trigger > for a moment of insight. But the touchstone for what is happening > at > this moment is never a book. What is happening at this moment can > never be described in words. To describe in words what is happening > at this moment is to loose this moment. The moment instead becomes > those words. Such moments have no reality. > > I don't doubt that the Buddha spoke when he thought it could cut > through some specific thicket. That is quite different to believing > that the Buddha can speak directedly to anyone through a book. To > believe that it is possible to find out what is happening at this > moment through the written words of another is stretching it a bit. > > With regards to what I believe we should do: > 1]As little as possible. > 2]Do not select what will be your teacher. > > All the best > > > Herman 27528 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 0:43am Subject: Re: New Member - Anatta/Puppets Dear RobertK, (Carl), and all, I just arrived back from the Dhamma weekend at Cooran and was glad to read your valuable post to Carl - thank you. I can't hear explanations of these truths often enough, it is SO important to understand Anatta correctly, and, as you know, has been difficult (for me) to do so in the past. Thank you for your kind and patient explanations - I sometimes feel I am the one with the wooden head, not the puppet - looking forward to any future posts you may care to make. As Nyanatiloka Thera says in his Dictionary of Buddhist Terms:"the anattá-doctrine has been clearly and unreservedly taught only by the Buddha, wherefore the Buddha is known as the anattá-vádi, or 'Teacher of Impersonality'. Whosoever has not penetrated this impersonality of all existence, and does not comprehend that in reality there exists only this continually self-consuming process of arising and passing bodily and mental phenomena, and that there is no separate ego-entity within or without this process, he will not be able to understand Buddhism, i.e. the teaching of the 4 Noble Truths (sacca, q.v.), in the right light. He will think that it is his ego, his personality, that experiences suffering, his personality that performs good and evil actions and will be reborn according to these actions, his personality that will enter into Nibbána, his personality that walks on the Eightfold Path. Thus it is said in Vis.M. XVI: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen." "Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense-impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117). [We had a brief discussion on the "sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa.ti; sabbe sankhaaraa dukkhaa.ti; sabbe DHAMMAA anattaa.ti" in the Dhp. 279, but couldn't readily locate the sutta at the time. Steve (Bodhi2500) had interesting comments to make concerning the commentary to the Dhp.]. Nyanatiloka continues: "While in the case of the first two characteristics it is stated that all formations (sabbe sankhárá) are impermanent and subject to suffering, the corresponding text for the third characteristic states that "all things are not-self" (sabbe dhammá anattá; M. 35, Dhp. 279). This is for emphasizing that the false view of an abiding self or substance is neither applicable to any 'formation' or conditioned phenomenon, nor to Nibbána, the Unconditioned Element (asankhatá dhátu)." http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic_idx.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > "rjkjp1" > > wrote: > > > Nice to have you here Carl, > > > The five aggregates (khandhas) are ultimate realities (paramattha > > > dhamma), and citta (vinnana) is one of the five. What is only > > > conventionally real is person or being. Person or being are the > > > shadow of what is really there. > > > -------- > > dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > > c7: Thank you Robert for your welcome and response to my > ponderings. > > > > > Perhaps I can be more lucid? You got your "paramattha dhammas" > over > > here and over there you got your "conventional realities". Well, > > to me, it seems all convoluted, in that "paramattha dhammas" are > > only known by "conventional realities" and "conventional realities" > > are merely an imaginary shadow of "paramattha dhammas". > ______________ > > Thanks for putting up your photo Carl. When the texts say that person > or being are only conventionally true it means that they have no > reality at all, they are only useful as terms to represent the five > khnadhas > "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, > So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common > usage."(samyutta I, 135) > These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata > makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > The suttas often use such words as I and my and man, woman, and we > can too, but we need > to know that they are mere concepts. > "Such forms as woman or man are local forms of speech. ..In those who > have not fully understood what a physical base is there comes to be > the misinterpretation "this is really a woman.."But since this is > mere concept, which depends on states made to occur in such ans such > a wise , one who sees and knows the dependent origination does not > interpret it as ultimate meaning"Note 4 visud. vii (pm) > > ---------------------- > > > i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? > > Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. > > It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = > > (No dance). > _______ > I appreciate your questions Carl and so I give a detailed answer. In > the Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case > the > valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes > to > be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna searching > for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be > 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who > has > sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the > eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are > volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional > formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom > there > are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, > cut > off at the root...."endquote. > > Thus there is no I who experiences hardness but rather because of > conditions coming together there is the experience of hardness. > > > This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming > together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then > falling away again. > > Because the conditions that make up each moment are often > similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – > and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. > > ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without > curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the > combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity > and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) > is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and > stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it > seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga > xviii31 > The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of > course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to > fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about > identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the > different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of > paticcasamuppada. > > Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad > or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. > But there are only different elements performing different > functions - and they have no agenda: > > "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and > fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability > of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more > thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 > > The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing > rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have > no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 > > "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be > regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, > before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall > their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur > without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in > dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 > > This is deep Dhamma that can only be heard during the time of a > Buddhasasana. > RobertK 27529 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 2:36am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James k: You are right to say we should keep an open mind. Hmm okay forget about this foam sutta as it keeps a metaphor, how about the other two sutta I quote to you. James: What about them? If you want to discuss them then tell me exactly what about them you want me to discuss. I get the impression that you think I am not familiar with the teaching of anatta. Believe me, I am familiar with it. It is the most subtle and profound teaching that the Buddha taught that only one of the highest wisdom can comprehend. When I first joined this group, I was amazed at how easily members threw this term around, like they were discussing something as ordinary as toothpaste. They seemed to know something that I didn't so I began an intense study of anatta, which included discussions in this group. What I discovered is that those who say they know don't really know. They just act like they know. After the death of the Buddha and the death of the arahants, there appeared several schools of thought about anatta, each convinced that they knew what it meant and that the others didn't. I don't subscribe to any of those schools; I just plain admit that I don't know what it means. And guess what, if I ever do find out what it means I won't discuss it in this group. Then I won't need to discuss anatta, I will be anatta. Really, it is not a subject appropriate to discussion. K: One can only truly understand anatta only when one reach supramundane stage (to be techinically correct bc I was question by two person - so dont want to be qn again). When you understand Anatta, the whole concept of Buddhism will change. Your faith of dhamma suddenly grow tremenduously and you will smile bc you realise that Buddha is really supreme in wisdom. And also you will realise all are just conditions :) and then you realise that you dont need to qn the Abdhidhamma and ancient commentaries anymore. To me it is the most effective knife that cuts the root of moha. James: Hmm…you sound a bit like a religious zealot here. I knew people who would tell me, "If you will just accept Jesus Christ as your Savior you will see the wisdom of the Bible and you will always be happy." But I could see that they were not happy. They were feeding me a line of bull. Now you tell me that if I just truly understand anatta I will be a true Buddhist, accept the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and that I will smile (be happy). Again, I have to look at the source. Ken, are you truly happy? Do you practice what you preach and know what you claim? It seems to me that you are projecting a desire for yourself. k: One of the impression Abdhidhamma gives its reader that don't understand it, "hey this sound like a engineer textbook, Buddhist text should be simple to read like the sutta." Honestly speaking, I have a Abdhidhamma book called "A Book of Analysis" - it is so technical that I always fall asleep reading it, hence I have give up reading it. I prefer its commentary (Dispeller of Delusion) which is much more readable. James: Thanks for the advice but I get all the Abhidhamma I can handle by simply reading the posts of this group. My issue isn't that I don't understand the writings about the Abhidhamma, I just don't agree with them. I have been through this all before in this group though so there is no reason to go into it again. I mentioned it because those who adhere to the Abhidhamma seem to believe that they understand anatta easily, because it is presented in the Abhidhamma in a conceptual framework that is easily grasped. My opinion is that anatta is not so easily understood. k: Only as you say, lets have an open mind. forget about the commentary, let relook at the sutta again. Buddha said "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind." Luminious means that the *color* of the mind is radiant. It just describe a *color* just like fire is red. It does not imply any other thing. James: Ken, you are taking a metaphor in a literal way again. Luminous cannot describe the *color* of the mind because the mind doesn't have any color. Do you think that if you split open your head you are going to see light shining out or something? LOL! Color is wave patterns of light that reflect off of objects. The mind isn't an object and light doesn't reflect off of it. Obviously the Buddha meant something else by the description of `Luminous'. k: It is defile by incoming defilements means it is being affected by unwholesome factors (lobha etc). In other words. it just said the mind which is luminious is now being defile by defilements - an unwholesome state of mind. "The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present" means no mindfulness hence no development of the mind "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. Again Buddha say luminious is the mind - simple and straight forward. It just hey the mind is radiant, thats all. The second sentence means it is a wholesome state bc an absence of defilements could mean a wholesome state of mind. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." - means mindfulness - there is development of the mind k: I asked you, is there in any sentence in this sutta say that the mind is pure in the first place or it is pointing to an orignal state of mind. It just say luminiuos is the mind - just the color of the mind, no other connotation. Luminous does not mean pure, it only means illuminated, radiant, or shiny. Any color can be luminous. Furthermore, the sutta states clearly that this luminious mind can be defiled means it can be affected by defilements, what can be affected is conditioned, what is conditioned is impermanent. Therefore it will mean the sutta is not saying any thing about a pure mind or an orginal state mind as both such minds are supposedly to be unconditional. James: Luminous does suggest purity to me. Pure light is luminous, pure gold is luminous, pure silver is luminous, etc. If anything is corrupted or dirty it usually can't be described as luminous. And different colors can be shiny, if they have a reflective surface, but they cannot be described as luminous. Luminous implies something that appears to have its own light source of some sort. Of course I am just looking at the standard uses of metaphors, which I believe the Buddha used quite frequently. Kind regards Ken O Metta, James 27530 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 3:11am Subject: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Hi Jon, Dang, a near perfect weekend spoiled by concensus with Jon Abbott :-) I know it is not useful for others to hear of my personal experiences, but I need to throw some in to show why I would question your paragraph, thus: > But, and this may be our main difference, I believe the conditions > under which that understanding can arise are quite specific and need > to be understood intellectually in the first place if there is to be > any chance of them being fulfilled. One evening, about eight years ago, whilst reclining in a chair after a days work, out of the blue, a realisation that there was no Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life hit home. I sat in that chair belly-laughing for a full ten minutes. That realisation was the funniest thing. But ..... once real, always real. I would find it impossible, and also undesirable, to trace this insight back to other insights and create some causal chain out of it. I can honestly say that I was not a student of Buddhism at the time, and anything I would have read about anatta previously would have gone right over my head. I believe that the resolution of conflict comes out of conflict. With clear hindsight, I can say that the view of an agent self is untenable in any culture. Again with hindsight, I can see how the investment of great amounts of energy is required to maintain the view of a separate self by needing to repress or obfuscate anything to the contrary. Eventually, the growing cognitive dissonance between what is believed and what is real launches a small spark of reality into awareness. This may happen a thousand times before the spark takes hold, but eventually it does. I agree that intelligence does not lead to enlightenment. That the Buddha became enlightened is not a tribute to his teachers, but a tribute to reality. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > I don't want to spoil your Sunday, but I think we are largely in > agreement here. > > Especially, I agree with you on the danger of replacing one > conceptual framework with another. > > I believe that the conceptual framework we hold to can be displaced > only insofar as things (dhammas) come to be seen as they truly are. > > Regarding your final paragraph, I believe that progress in seeing > things as they truly are comes not by doing but by understanding, and > that what is to be understood is some aspect (i.e., any aspect, > without selection) of the present moment. > > But, and this may be our main difference, I believe the conditions > under which that understanding can arise are quite specific and need > to be understood intellectually in the first place if there is to be > any chance of them being fulfilled. > > This to me is where the teaching of the Buddha comes in. I do not > think we are smart enough to figure this game out on our own, > whatever the present level of our progress along the path. > > Look forward to hearing you further on any points of disagreement. > > Jon > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > As a general statement, I think we are discussing the idea of > > learning / teaching from two very different perspectives. I accept > > that in a conventional sense, learning is the acquiring of a > > conceptual framework. > > > > But I do not think this applies to Buddhism learning. Learning in a > > Buddhist sense is not an acquiring, but an undoing, a getting rid > > of conceptual frameworks. > > > > However, to achieve the same status / state as the Buddha, one > > doesn't go about getting what he got, or getting rid of what he got > > rid of. To get rid of what the Buddha got rid of, we would first > > need to acquire that. To reach the state of the Buddha we need to > > become aware of what *WE* believe, not what we believe the Buddha > > believed. > > > > I would not say that the thrust of the Buddha's example and > > teaching > > is development or evolution. For me, the opposite is true. The > > Buddha's teaching as a whole does not exist as such. > > Specific insights are applied in specific circumstances to cut > > through specific thickets of belief. The Buddha's example and > > teaching does not set out to replace an overall incorrect > > conceptual > > framework with an overall correct conceptual framework. That would > > be insanity. > > > > I accept a place for the suttas , the Abhidhamma and the > > commentaries. There is no limit to what can function as a trigger > > for a moment of insight. But the touchstone for what is happening > > at > > this moment is never a book. What is happening at this moment can > > never be described in words. To describe in words what is happening > > at this moment is to loose this moment. The moment instead becomes > > those words. Such moments have no reality. > > > > I don't doubt that the Buddha spoke when he thought it could cut > > through some specific thicket. That is quite different to believing > > that the Buddha can speak directedly to anyone through a book. To > > believe that it is possible to find out what is happening at this > > moment through the written words of another is stretching it a bit. > > > > With regards to what I believe we should do: > > 1]As little as possible. > > 2]Do not select what will be your teacher. > > > > All the best > > > > > > Herman > > > 27531 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:25am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James, Ken O, and all, Is what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned being not self hard to understand? If it is hard to understand, why? We might want to ask ourselves, "Is what I find hard to understand in fact what the Buddha taught?" As I see it, most of time it is the preconception/misconception about what the Buddha taught that one finds hard to understand, not what the Buddha taught. One such preconception/misconception that has been around is the idea "there is no self". I would think that if one finds what the Buddha taught that the conditioned is not self is hard to understand, it is not because one finds what the Buddha taught esoteric but because one finds it hard to reconcile what the Buddha taught as it is with the one's own preconception about what the Buddha taught is. The problem is that instead of giving up the preconception, one often seeks to reinforce it. Giving up the preconception can be difficult because it might not be comfortable to do so. In the process of giving up one's preconception, the question and thought that might come up is: "Is that all there is to what the Buddha taught? It just can not be that simple!" I would also quote this from Dhammapada When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are inconstant' -- you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All fabrications are stressful' -- you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' -- you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp/20.html Please note that purity is the goal, and seeing with discernment and growing disenchanted with stress is the path to that goal. Seeing with discernment and growing disenchanted with stress is not the goal in and of itself, but the path to the goal of purity.* Peace, Victor * I would also quote what Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: These insights are part of the path, and not the goal at the end of the path. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Ken O, [snip] 27532 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:27am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Here is the link to the quote below: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, Ken O, and all, [snip] > * I would also quote what Thanissaro Bhikkhu wrote: > > These insights are part of the path, and not the goal at the end of > the path. > 27533 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:45am Subject: Re: Phonetic Glossary Hi C7carl, Atta = At Ta ( Not At Hta or At Tha ) Anatta = Anat Ta Anicca = Aneik Sa ( Anake Sa, not Hsa or Sha ) C must be pronounced as a soft ' C ' as ' Sa ' Example of soft ' C ' Centre = Sen Ter, that ' C ' is pronounced as ' Sa '. In English strong ' C ' is pronounced as ' K ' Cat = Kat Dukkha = Doke Kha Sukha = Thu Kha ( ' Thin ' for slim is pronounced as ' Th ' so does all word with ' S ' must be pronounced as ' Th ' as in ' thin ' for a slim lady. Nibbana = Nake Ban Na ( each phonene must not be closed with 'k' or 'n' or so on as in English ) Panna = Pan Nya or Pin Nya or Pyin Nya ( Not Pan Na ) Vinnana = Wein Nya Na Sanna = Thin Nya or Than Nya Vedana = Way Da Na Sankhara = Than Kha Ra or Thin Kha Ra Pathama = Pa Hta Ma Catuttha = Ca Toke Hta ( soft ' C ' & all 'Th ' in Pali are pronounced as ' Hta ' ) Paramattha = Pa Ra Mat Hta ( ' Th ' is pronounced as ' Hta ' ) Sacca = Thit Sa ( ' S ' in Pali pronounces ' Tha ' as in 'thin' and ' C ' in Pali pronounces ' Sa 'as in centre Citta = Seik Ta ( Sate Ta ) Cetasika = Say Ta Thi Ka Avijja = Aweik Zar ' V ' in Pali pronounce '' Wa '' so in this case Aweik and all ' J ' in Pali pronounce '' Za '' Paccaya = Pit Sa Ya or Pyit Sa Ya / Pat Sa Ya or Phat Sa Ya The word ' a ' as vowel is in between a and i or English Bhava = Ba Wa Jati = Zar Ti Jara = Za Yar Vyadhi = Byar Di ( here 'V ' pronounces as V in English or B ) Samannantara = Tha Man Nan Ta Ra Sahajata = Tha Ha Zar Ta Indriya = Ein Dri Ya or In Dri Ya Nissaya = Neik Tha Ya ( not close with end sound of 'k' ) Chattha = Sat Hta ' Ch ' in Pali pronounces as strong ' S ' ' Ch ' in Pali pronounces like ' S ' of section (Eng) Pacchima = Pit Hsi Ma or Pat Hsi Ma Consonents are 1 . K in Kamma ( Kam Ma ) 2 . Kh in Khandha ( Khan Dar ) 3 . G in Ghandha ( Gan Da ) 4 . Gh in Sangha ( Than Gha ) 5 . Ng in 6 . C in Candha ( San Dar/ ' C ' is soft in Pali ) 7 . Ch in Chattha ( Sat Hta / Ch is strong ' S ' like 'S' of section ) 8 . J in Javana ( Za Wa Na / ' J ' in Pali pronounces ' Za ' Vijja ( Weik Zar / ' V ' is Wa and ' J ' is Za in Pali ) 9 . Jh in Jhana ( Zar Na / ' Jh ' pronounces Za ) Majjhima ( Mit Zi Ma or Mit Zhi Ma ) 10. N in Nana ( Nya Na / the first N pronounces Nya and the second N pronounces Na ) Panna ( Pan Nya/ this 'N ' pronounces Nya But most N pronounce Na ) 11. T in Tisarana ( Ti Tha Ra Na / ' S ' is Tha in Pali ) Atta ( At Ta ) 12. Th in Thina ( Hti Na / Th in Pali pronounces Hta ) Atthi ( At Hti / strong ' T ' in English ) 13. D in Pasada ( Pa Tha Da / ' s ' pronounces Tha in Pali ) 14. Dh in Samadhi ( Tha Ma Dhi / ' S ' is Tha ) 15. N in Natthi ( Nat Hti / Th is Pali is Hta ) 16. P in Pathama ( Pa Hta Ma / Th is pronounced as ' Hta ' ) 17. Ph in Phassa ( Phat Tha / ' S ' pronounce Tha in Pali ) 18. B in Bala ( Ba La ) 19. Bh in Bhava ( Ba Wa /Here B is strong ' B ' ' V ' in Pali pronounces ' Wa ' ) 20. M in Pancama ( Pin Sa Ma or Pyin Sa Ma / ' C ' here is soft ' C ' like ' C ' of centre ) 21. Y in Yekkha ( Yet Kha / not end with 't' in pronunciation ) 22. R in Rupa ( Ru Pa ) 23. L in Sila ( Thi La / ' S ' in Pali pronounces ' Th ' ) To be continue-- With Unlimited Metta Htoo Naing ------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > How do i pronounce Pali! I need a glossory that is phonetic. I > may never understand pali. But if i could be firm in my enuncation > of Pali it would be cool. I just want to know how to say the > word. Not a Pali glossary, just a simple pronunciation of that > glossery. ...c7 27534 From: Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/30/03 2:27:21 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > You said: > < to arise. I don't know what it *means*, for example, for an > unexperienced hardness or sight to arise.>> > > I think you have put your finger on the nub of the matter here, > Howard. It is the issue of Rupas as present object of consciousness > vs. Rupas as dhammas that arise in this plane of existence regardless > of whether they are object of someone's experience via one of the 5 > sense-doors. > > I do understand your concern about whether the latter can be directly > known by us, but I frankly don’t see how that affects the bigger > question of whether or not that is in fact the way things are. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What is not directly knowable is at best inferable, and should not be assumed as unquestionably true, and, in any case, cries out for justification. ----------------------------------------------- As> > I've said before, if your position is simply that it is unknowable by > you or me at our present level of development (which I agree with), > that would not in itself be any basis for doubting the truth of the > assertion if made by, for example, the Buddha. Hence my suggestion > that you perhaps hold some views to the contrary. > > As to what it means for rupas to arise in this plane of existence, > consider the rupas that we take for our body. At any given moment > (including this very moment) most of those rupas, for example, the > ones we take for our internal organs, or the back of our head, are > not the object of anyone's 5 sense-door consciousness. Yet do they > not still arise? According to the teachings, they are conditioned by > one or more of the 4 conditions of kamma, citta, temperature and > nutriment, and by virtue of that condition/those conditions they > arise (or not) regardless. Does this strike you as not being > credible? > > The alternative scenario is that the rupas we take for our body arise > only when they are the object of someone's consciousness. As I > understand that proposition, this would mean that, for example, the > rupas we take for Howard cease to arise entirely in this plane of > existence whenever that bundle of rupas-taken-as-Howard is in a deep > sleep alone in a room, and would only resume arising when 'he' awoke > or when someone came into the room. Does this seem to you the more > credible of the 2 alternatives? > > Jon > ============================== Jon, to me hardness or an odor or a sight are contents of certain experiences (their objective aspects). As I see it, a hardness or an odor or a sight, if it is something other than that, must occur "somewhere," especially when it arises allegedly unobserved. (BTW, what *is* an unobserved sight? What does it mean for a sight not to be seen? The very language contradicts itself!) You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in "Rupaville"! ;-) I say that if, as common sense asserts, there is an external material world of objects such as trees, rocks, air, grass, animal bodies, human bodies, planes, trains, and automobiles, then that is Rupaville! (This easily accounts for rupas occurring in groups.) But if not, I see there being proposed some unseen and unspecified "rupa realm," an amazing abstraction. If rupas are not features and functions of external physical "things," and they also are not the objective aspects of certain acts of consciousness, then they are disembodied ghosts hanging out in some ghost realm waiting to be somehow contacted by mind. Now, I can see so-called unexperienced rupas as potentials consisting of many, but not yet all, of the conditions needed for the arising in consciousness of a rupa, so that, for example, the occurrence of the sequence of phenomena we call "touching the back of our skull" results in the arising of a hardness, but prior to the occurrence of that sequence of phenomena occurring, that hardness is only a potential. (Some conditions have been met, but not enough.) This would be *one* way of explaining the matter. An objective external world of physical objects would be another. There may well yet be others that are far better than either of these. I have my preference, but I don't insist on it. What I do think is reasonable to insist on, however, is that a claim be backed up by a plausible and verifiable explanation. It seems to me that Abhidhamma and Abhidhammikas are extraordinarily detailed on many points, but at certain critical junctures, get very lax, showing a willingness to say "somehow", or to say "The Abhidhamma says it, so it must be so. Just wait until you have the ability to see it - many millenia from now". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27535 From: Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi, Jon - In a message dated 11/30/03 2:44:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Larry > > To my understanding, the characteristic of dhammas cannot be seen by > doing what you describe here. No amount of looking at things will > unveil the true nature of dhammas; only the arising of sati/panna can > achieve this. The conditions for that arising do not include the > intention to examine things more closely. That kind of conventional > 'effort' is not the effort of right effort. > > We should not expect that book knowledge/intellectual understanding > of, for example, the difference between different kinds of > consciousness will allow us to directly perceive those differences. > We need to be true to ourselves in terms of the extent to which sati > and panna have been developed to date and, accordingly, what > information has direct application for us in that regard and what > information is useful as 'background briefing' only. > > To answer your question then, for me it's pretty much all background > briefing stuff;-)). > > Jon > ========================= I agree with much that you say here, Jon. Now ... what, according to the Buddha, *are* the conditions needed for the arising of sati/panna? Are you saying that they do not include cultivating the practice of attending to the arising and ceasing dhammas? Do they also not include cultivating greater mental concentration and energy? Do they include none of these because nothing can be cultivated? You wrote "We should not expect that book knowledge/intellectual understanding of, for example, the difference between different kinds of consciousness will allow us to directly perceive those differences." I very much agree with you on this. So, what else, then, does the Buddha say should be done? Something? Nothing? Is there a practice according to the Buddha? The eightfold noble path you have often said is the co-arising of eight factors, and not a training program. Did the Buddha provide a training program? If there is no program of practice, what conditions the arising ofthe factors of enlightenment? Merely good luck?? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27536 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:panna cetasika, 1. Dear Howard, Your simile about the clouds that obscure the light is like the Expositor II. Path Consciopusness, (p. 313). Nibbana is like the moon, and just before the lokuttara cittas arise, gotrabhu, adoption, takes nibbana as object, but it does not eradicate: it cannot . But the Path-consciousness < follows it without a break, and arises piercing and bursting the mass of greed, hate and delusion never before pierced and burst.> This happened never before. Further on: Ignorance is one of the latent tendencies, it is deeply rooted, lying dormant in each citta. Only lokutttara panna can eradicate latent tendencies. Panna cannot become lokuttara panna at once, it has to be developed, starting from intellectual understanding. There are many degrees of it. Panna is a cetasika, conditioned by the citta and accompanying cetasikas, and conditioning them. That is the benefit of studying cetasikas, we begin to have more udnerstanding of conditions. It is natural to be ignorant, moha accompanies each akusala citta. It is a root, a cetasika. It is not difficult to notice that there are more akusala cittas than kusala cittas in our life. Panna is a sobhana cetasika, it is a root that is sobhana. Panna does not come naturally, there are very few kusala cittas arising, and even less with understanding. In the Abhidhamma it is taught that there is moha (ignorance, translated here as dullness) with each akusala citta, most important. See Part II, Bad States (p. 90) the long list of cetasikas accompanying akusala citta, and among them dullness. Ignorance is the beginning of the Dependent Origination. We are in this cycle and have the latent tendency of ignorance. It is so stubborn, it keeps on darkening our view. We have to investigate the abhidhamma in our life, otherwise, what is the use of studying it? We can investigate for ourselves whether there is ignorance with each akusala citta. For example, when I am praised, I feel happy, and this happy feeling arises with conceit and attachment. I forget the true nature of realities, I forget that conceit is akusala, that there is no point in rejoicing in praise. I forget that there are no people, only conditioned realities. The Suttanta teaches about kusala and akusala and gives us many precious reminders. The Abhidhamma adds subtle details and greatly assists us in knowing ourselves, in developing understanding of the present reality, so that eventually latent tendencies can be eradicated. If panna were not a cetasika that can and should be developed, what is the use of the eightfold Path, what is the use of the Buddha's teaching? Panna has to be developed together with the other Path factors which are also cetasikas. Dhammasangani § 16: The function of panna (Atth I, 123): Because of ignorance it is often unclear what object is experienced by citta and cetasikas, but panna investigates, discerns, discriminates. It has to search and research on and on. I agree that akusala is sickness, as you wrote, but panna is the medicine to cure it. Not immediately, it takes patience. (to be continued) Nina. op 28-11-2003 16:59 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Ken, Abhidhamma takes wisdom/insight/pa~n~na to be a special mental > function. I do not understand it that way. If perfect wisdom were an actual, > positive phenomenon that arises, then it would have to cease as well. I do not > see how that could be questioned and still accept the Buddha's teaching of > anicca - whatever arises, ceases. As I see it, 'wisdom' is a conventional > term to > describe the natural, unobscured functioning of the mind, the natural > functioning of discernment (vi~n~nana) and perception/recognition (sa~n~na). > When one > sees clearly, without obscuration, how phenomena actually arise and are and > cease, that is mind functioning naturally, without obscuration - that is mind > functioning "with wisdom". 27537 From: htootintnaing Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 0:17pm Subject: Phonetic Glossary ( 01 ) Consonents in Pali Language( the spoken language )are 1 . K in Kamma ( Kam Ma ) Jivaka ( Zi Wa Ka / J is pronounced as Za in Pali ) 2 . Kh in Khandha ( Khan Dar ) Sukha ( Thu Kha / 'S' in Pali pronounces 'Th' ) 3 . G in Gandha ( Gan Da ) Caga ( Sar Ga / C here is soft C as in centre pronounces ' Sa ' ) 4 . Gh in Ghana ( Gar Na / Gh is strong G ) Sangha ( Than Gha ) 5 . Ng in Sangaha ( Sang Ga Ha/ here Ng is a closing sound ) 6 . C in Candha ( San Dar/ ' C ' is soft in Pali ) Paticca ( Pa Teik Sa / ,, ) 7 . Ch in Chattha ( Sat Hta / Ch is strong ' S ' like 'S' of section ) Th in Pali pronounces Hta ) in Tiriccha ( Ti Reik Hsa or Ti Reik Sa ) 8 . J in Javana ( Za Wa Na / ' J ' in Pali pronounces 'Za ' in Vijja ( Weik Zar / ' V ' is Wa and J is Za ) 9 . Jh in Jhana ( Zar Na / ' Jh ' pronounces Za ) in Majjhima ( Mit Zi Ma / ,, ) 10. N in Nana ( Nya Na / the first N pronounces Nya and the second N pronounces Na ) in Panna ( Pan Nya/ this 'N ' pronounces Nya But most N pronounce Na ) 11. T in Tisarana ( Ti Tha Ra Na or Ti Sa Ra Na / S and Th for pronunciation is interchangeable ) in Atta ( At Ta ) 12. Th in Thina ( Hti Na / Th in Pali pronounces Hta ) in Atthi ( At Hti / strong ' T ' in English ) 13. D in Diganikaya ( Di Gha Ni Ka Ya ) in Pasada ( Pa Tha Da / ' s ' pronounces Tha in Pali ) 14. Dh in Dhatu ( Dhar Tu / Dh is strong ' D ' ) in Samadhi ( Tha Ma Dhi / ' S ' is Tha ) 15. N in Natthi ( Nat Hti / Th is Pali is Hta ) in Thina ( Hti Na / Th is pronounces Ht ) 16. P in Pathama ( Pa Hta Ma / Th is pronounced as ' Hta ' ) in Rupa ( Ru Pa ) 17. Ph in Phassa ( Phat Tha or Phat Sa ) in Vehapphala ( Way Hat Pha La / ' V' pronounces Wa ) 18. B in Bala ( Ba La ) in Photthabba ( Phut Htat Ba ) 19. Bh in Bhava ( Ba Wa /Here B is strong B ) in Lobha ( Law Bha/ ,, ) 20. M in Maha ( Ma Har ) in Pancama ( Pin Sa Ma or Pyin Sa Ma / ' C ' here is soft ' C ' like ' C ' of centre ) 21. Y in Yekkha ( Yet Kha / not end with 't' in pronunciation ) in Sappaya ( That Pa Ya / Sat Pa Ya ) 22. R in Rupa ( Ru Pa ) in Ahara ( Ahar Ra ) 23. L in Lakkhana ( Lat Kha Na / No ending or closing sound in Pali ) in Sila ( Thi La or Si La ) 24. V in Vanna ( Wun Na or Wan Na ) in Tava ( Tar Wa ) 25. S in Satta ( That Ta ~ this is equally pronounced Sat Ta ) in Phassa ( Phat Sa or Phat Tha ) 26. H in Hirika ( Hi Ri Ka ) in Ehi ( Aye Hi ) 27. Sv in Svakkhato ( Swat Kha Taw or Thwet Kha Taw ) in Disva ( Di Swar or Di Thwar ) 28. Tv in Tvan ( Twan ) in Gantvana ( Gan Twar Na ) 29. Dv in Dvipanca ( Dwi Pan Sa/ S in Centre ) in Pancadvara ( Pan Sa Dwar Ra/ S in Centre ) 30. Py in Pyakate ( Pya Ka Te ) in Yamakapyatiha ( Ya Ma Ka Pya Ti Ha ) 31. Vy in Vyadhi ( Bya Dhi ) in Assavya ( Assa Byar ) Vowels sounds are 1. a in Adhipati ( A Di Pa Ti / like 'a' in ago ) in Asava ( Aa Sa Wa ) in Ahara ( Aa Ha Ra or Aha Ra ) a in Kaya ( Kaa Ya / '-ya' Ya ) in Asava ( Aa Sa Wa/ '-sa' Sa and '-va' Wa ) in Marana ( Ma Ra Na ) a in Vedana ( Way Da Nar/ In '-na ' Nar ) in Sanna ( San Nyar / '-na ' Nyar in Sankhara ( San Khar Rar / '-kha' Khar or Khaa ) No strong form in Pali like Car Bar Far War of English words 2. i in Piti ( Pii Ti / '-ti ' Ti ) in Samadhi ( Sa Ma Dhi/ '-dhi' Dhi ) in Vyadhi ( Byar Dhi/ '-dhi' Dhi ) i in Piti ( Pii Ti / 'Pi-' Pii this sound ( vowel ) is like di-tek of Detect English word ) in Vithi ( Wii Hti / 'Vi-' Wii ,, ) in Hina ( Hii Na / 'Hi-' Hii ,, ) 3. u in Sukhuma ( Su Khu Ma ) in Phusana ( Phu Sa Na ) in Guru ( Gu Ru ) u in Sukara ( Suu Ka Ra / 'Su-' Suu is like Duration 'dju' ) in Gupa ( Guu Pa / 'Gu-' Guu ,, ) in Una ( Uu Na / 'U-' Uu ,, ) 4. e in Desana ( Day Sa Na / 'De-' Day like the first sound of Radar in Cetana ( Say Ta Na / 'Ce-' Say is S of Centre ) in Vedana ( Way Da Na / 'Ve-' Way like the Radar..see above ) e in Ehi ( Aye Hi / Like Radar ) 5. o in Passo ( Pat Saw or Pat Thaw/ '-so' like saw in English ) in Phasso ( Phat Saw or Phat Thaw / see above ) in Sabhavo ( Sa Bhar Waw ) 6. o in Photthabba ( Phut Htat Bar/ 'Phot-' Phut is like put of English word ) in Gottrabhu ( Gut Tra Bu / like Good ) in Vojjita ( Wut Zi Tar / ,, ) 7. an in Vanna ( Wan Na ) in Gandha ( Gan Dha ) in Chandha ( Hsan Dha, or San Dha / Sis strong S ) an in Anga ( An Ga or In Ga ) in Sankhara ( San Kha Ra ) in Vankaba ( Wan Ka Bar ) 8. akk in Sakka ( Sat Ka ) agg in Agga ( At Ga ) 9. acc in Sacca ( Sat Ca or Sit Ca ) ajj in Ajja ( At Za or It Za ) 10. ann in Panna ( Pan Nyar ) in Sanna ( San Nyar ) 11. att in Atta ( At Ta ) atth in Attha ( At Hta ) 12. add in Sadda ( Sat Da ) 13. addh in Saddha ( Sa dar or Sat Dar ) 14. ant in Santa ( San Ta ) anth in Santhana ( San Htar Na ) anda in Sanda ( san Da ) andha in Gandha ( Gan Dha ) amm in Samma ( Sam Mar ) 15. app in Kappa ( Kap Pa ) abb in Sabba ( Sab Ba ) amb in Amba ( Am Ba ) 16. all in Mallika in Moggallana 17. icc in Kicca ( Keik Ca ), Amicca ( Aa Mit Ca ) icch in Vicikiccha ( Wii Ci Keik Hsar ), Miccha ( Mit Hsar ) ijj in Mijja ( Mit Za ) 18. inc in Kinca ( Kein Ca ) 19. ukk in Dukkha ( Doke Kha ) 20. unna in Unna ( Ohn Na ) in Punna ( Pohn Nya ) 21. okk in Vimokkha ( Wi Mauk Kha ) 22. and many other possible vowel sound. 27538 From: blue lan Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Islam and Buddhism Hi, I am a new number here, a Taiwannees. After I get this interesting title about [ Islam and Buddhism ], i conneted and enter that book, and read it. Firstly, i think it's not a good book and some of them wrong and misleading the way Buddha taught and misunderstand the meaning of worship by the picture of Buddha, although the Buddha didnnot all agree that we have the Buddha statues. Yes, i am little upset. Because i had read their Qur'an, and i think Islam is good for peple who could not have chance to know the Buddha, and people who belive it could still have the goodnees to fellow. After I read the writing style again, compare some of other Islam books in the net, finally, my upset is gone. Because, their writing style seems [ yes or no], just according the Qur'an. Somehow , i just think that it would be one of the ways Islam people see, know, and understand things and people in the earth. So they and we live in different culture and diferent value. Why do I write this note? I think we need to pay more compassion and learn more the Buddha had taugh and then leading them and let them regcognize that the Buddha did not deny gods, or the god; however the Buddha say that gods are beings, and they also live under ignorance ( twelve links of dependent arising). Blue rahula_80 wrote: Hi, I would like to bring to your attention of the book, "Islam and Buddhism" by Harun Yahya, a well known Muslim preacher. The book is also available online. http://www.hyahya.org/buddhism01.php I am hoping that a Buddhist(s) especialy those who are interested in comparative religions studies between Buddhism and Islam, would come forward to clarify the misunderstanding / misrepresentations found in that book. Truly yours, Rahula 27539 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 0:52pm Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi James, Ken O, and all, > > Is what the Buddha taught regarding the conditioned being not self > hard to understand? If it is hard to understand, why? We might > want to ask ourselves, "Is what I find hard to understand in fact > what the Buddha taught?" > > As I see it, most of time it is the preconception/misconception > about what the Buddha taught that one finds hard to understand, not > what the Buddha taught. One such preconception/misconception that > has been around is the idea "there is no self". Hi Victor, This is one of the schools of thought about the matter. I wouldn't say that I belong to this school of thought, but it is very pragmatic and practical, which adds to its appeal. The only drawback I see is that a teaching strategy of this type doesn't become too effective if it is viewed as only a teaching strategy with no real validity behind it. Take for example this stanza that you quote from the Dhammapada: When you see with discernment, 'All phenomena are not-self' -- you grow disenchanted with stress. This is the path to purity. There is obviously a division between discerning that `all phenomena are not-self' and the final goal of purity (nibbana). However, it would seem highly illogical that the path and the goal are complete opposites or unrelated. If the path is viewing things as `non-self' than the goal might be a true realization of 'non-self'. Right? For example, if you want to teach someone to cook you don't have them practice hoop shots, you have them practice cooking. The path and the goal are related in most teaching situations. Of course this is a completely different matter and I understand that. However, what you are proposing isn't really any easier to understand, in my opinion. Metta, James 27540 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 1:40pm Subject: Re: Phonetic Glossary Hi Carl, and all, In addition to the helpful phonetic glossary posts by Htoo Naing, you may find the following of interest: If you join the All Things Pali yahoo.group at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ and then click onto their Files section: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/ scroll down to the fourth item from the bottom of the page - you will see a file called palwvm zip This consists of MP3 Sound files and has pronunciations of 600 Pali words, recorded by Ven. Mettavihari. Initially it takes 6 or 7 minutes to download, but if you 'save as' to your desktop (or a folder) future access is quick and easy. There is also a listing in the All Things Pali group Files section of the 1000 most most frequently occurring words in the Pali Canon. As well, click on this link and scroll down to a written explanation of the The Pronunciation of Pali: http://www.abhidhamma.org/wobpref.htm#998977 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > How do i pronounce Pali! I need a glossory that is phonetic. I > may never understand pali. But if i could be firm in my enuncation > of Pali it would be cool. I just want to know how to say the > word. Not a Pali glossary, just a simple pronunciation of that > glossery. ...c7 27541 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 9:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Dear Jon and Larry, I appreciate both Larry's question and your answer. I like the reminder: We need to be true to ourselves in terms of the extent to which sati and panna have been developed to date ... Excellent. Nina. op 30-11-2003 08:44 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > Larry > > To my understanding, the characteristic of dhammas cannot be seen by > doing what you describe here. No amount of looking at things will > unveil the true nature of dhammas; only the arising of sati/panna can > achieve this. The conditions for that arising do not include the > intention to examine things more closely. That kind of conventional > 'effort' is not the effort of right effort. > > We should not expect that book knowledge/intellectual understanding > of, for example, the difference between different kinds of > consciousness will allow us to directly perceive those differences. > We need to be true to ourselves in terms of the extent to which sati > and panna have been developed to date and, accordingly, what > information has direct application for us in that regard and what > information is useful as 'background briefing' only. > > To answer your question then, for me it's pretty much all background > briefing stuff;-)). 27542 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Nov 30, 2003 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James James: Hmm…you sound a bit like a religious zealot here. I knew > people who would tell me, "If you will just accept Jesus Christ as > your Savior you will see the wisdom of the Bible and you will > always be happy." But I could see that they were not happy. They were feeding me a line of bull. Now you tell me that if I just truly understand anatta I will be a true Buddhist, accept the Abhidhamma and ancient commentaries and that I will smile (be happy). Again, I have to look at the source. Ken, are you truly happy? Do you practice what you preach and know what you claim? It seems to me that you are projecting a desire for yourself. k: James, I am happy (bc I don't know what you mean by truly , for me the only way to be truly happen is only one has attain Enlightment) bc living in Buddhism has make me happy. Accepting teaching is one thing, accepting blindly is another thing, living it is also another thing. You say to be open minded but are you ;-). Are you willing to throw down your concepts and try the ancient ways of Abdhidhamma and its commentaries. You may think I am bullshiting, giving you a load of nonsense but pse dont be too soon to judge. I started Buddhism not on Thervada path, I was a Mahayanist who also believed in the orignal state of mind, pure mind. I have to say nothing compares to Thervada and Abdhidhamma. J: I mentioned it because those who adhere to the Abhidhamma seem to believe that they understand anatta easily, because it is presented in the Abhidhamma in a conceptual framework that is easily grasped. My opinion is that anatta is not so easily understood. k: Yes Anatta is a profound subject. I dont think anyone here claim they truly understand Anatta. The gist to repeat anatta again and again as though like brushing our teeth, is bc it is the crux of Buddhism. That is why it is impt to repeat it again and again and discusss it again and again. Hence it gives an impression that we truly know it. We may not know it but at least we are living it and that matters. How can I claim living it - bc I used the way stated in the suttas, using it again and again for the living moment that I can be mindful of, and that is how I experience a minute bit of it (does not equate truly know it bc that is enlightenment) > James: Luminous does suggest purity to me. Pure light is > luminous, pure gold is luminous, pure silver is luminous, etc. If anything is corrupted or dirty it usually can't be described as luminous. And different colors can be shiny, if they have a reflective surface, but they cannot be described as luminous. Luminous implies something that appears to have its own light source of some sort. k: Who say that anything that is diry cannot be luminous, your definition of luminious appear to have its own source of light, I have have a slightly dirty bulb but it can still be luminous. How about those luminious fishes, even though some of them have transparent body that are illuminated, but there are some of them have organs in their body that are dirty. They are luminous on the outside but inside they are also as filthy as us. kind regards Ken O 27543 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 0:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 02 ) Dear Htoo & All, I greatly enjoy your series on Cetasikas - it’s a very imaginative and colourful way of presenting these mental factors as Ministers. I always smile when I read them. Anumodana. They’re very helpful indeed as long as the metaphors are not taken literally, as James would remind us;-) I also appreciated this post (no2) from this series. For example: --- Htoo Naing wrote: > Realities are realities and they are always true in ultimate sense. > These ultimate realities are CITTA , CETASIKA, RUPA, and NIBBANA. > > CITTA is an ultimate reality. It is the nature that is aware of object > or Arammana. It is conscious to sense or object or Arammana. Basing on > this character, there is only one Citta. According to its character, it > just knows the Arammana. So it is primarily pure, innocent, radiant and > luminous. Cittas are in the first group of ultimate realities. > > However, Citta never arises in isolation but arises with other > associated mental factors called CETASIKAS. It is these Cetasikas that > give Citta different names. Depending on what Cetasikas accompany, there > are 89 Cittas or 89 states of consciousness. Cetasikas are included in > the second group of ultimate realities. There are 52 Cetasikas and each > has their specific typical character. All 52 Cetasikas have general > characters as well. Each Citta and each Cetasika will be delineated in > the coming posts. > > The third group of ultimate realities is RUPA . Rupa are bases. Rupa > base for Nama Dhamma both Citta and Cetasika. Rupa also base for Rupa. > Rupa have their own characters. Characteristic of Rupa is its > changeability. Rupa are subjected to change and they are influenced by > Kamma, Citta, Utu, and Ahara. Each of Rupa, Kamma, Utu, Ahara, > interactions of Rupa and their four causes will be discussed in the > coming posts. > > The fourth group of ultimate realities is NIBBANA . Nibbana is an > absolute peace as all kinds of fire have been extinguished. These kinds > of fire are shaping and forming the existing events, happenings and > situations. Fire are mental conditioners or Cetasikas. As conditioned, > different kinds of Citta has to arise. Kamma have to arise in connection > with Citta. Arisen Rupa are further conditioned by Utu and Ahara. And > new and new Rupa have to grow in quantity and they proliferate > infinitely and endlessly. ..... S: I think it’s very helpful that you keep giving these reminders and clearly understanding the first three conditioned ultimate realities is essential to realizing nibbana. In other Buddhist traditions it is stressed that ‘the entire dependently originating world -both physical and mental - has a merely conceptual existence’ (from the article Larry gave us the link to -). From this, it would seem there is no differentiation then between ultimate realities (except nibbana) and conventional truths and sound is no more ‘real’ than a tree. The latter is not in accordance with the Tipitaka (or experience), however, as I understand. Furthermore, concepts such as trees are not conditioned. Only cittas, cetasikas and rupas are conditioned. The Dependent Origination is about the conditioned nature of realities. Thank you again, for clearly stating these truths. One question, I do have however is when you write: H: > Another option as destination is endlessly rotating the wheel of lives. > As long as Sattas are growing Kamma, the wheel will be rotating > endlessly. It is the readers choice whether to choose Nibbana as their > destination or to be in the state of rotating in the wheel of lives as > their destination. If they choose the wheel of lives as their > ndestination '' How To Get Through The Samsara '' is no more needed to > read up. For those who choose Nibbana as their destination will need to > learn Dhamma that help get through the Samsara. .... In paramatha dhamma terms, what do you mean here by choice and who does the choosing? Are these conditioned realities too? Thank you again for all your other helpful posts, Metta, Sarah p.s. Thank you for posting your comprehensive Pali glossary. When we were recently in Myanmar, our Myanmar friends took a little time to get used to our pronunciation of Pali terms and vice versa as both Thai and Burmese have their own pronunciations of some sounds which are different from the Sinhalese. Looking at your glossary, I esp. notice the difference for these consonants - ‘c’ which you pronounce ‘s’, ‘j’ as ‘z’, ‘th’ as ‘ht’ [as in your name;-)], ‘v’ as ‘w’ [common in thai too], ‘s’ as ‘th’, ‘v’ as ‘b’. Thank you. ======================== 27544 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Christine, Glad to see you back and look forward to more tit-bits from you all. I hope Steve will add some of his comments and Dhp comy references on ‘sabbe DHAMMA anatta’ etc here and everyone’s got their instructions for posting;-) Meanwhile, I was glad to see you contributing to this thread;-) --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello to all in the Luminous Mind corner, > > Though not able to join in the discussion, I am reading your posts > with interest. > I am not sure if this article entitled "Luminous Mind" by Bhante > Henepola Gunaratana is familiar to people. > For what it's worth, it can be found at: > http://www.gbvihara.org/Luminousmind.htm .... I only just got round to reading the article which I don’t remember having seen before (but sometimes [well, often] I forget). I note that you’re careful to indicate this time that you’re just offering for consideration and it doesn’t necessarily reflect your views, and I appreciate this;-) There was a lot of good information and a couple of wrong conclusions -- to my mind -- about the bhavanga cittas. I thought Mike’s comment was far more ‘correct’, so I’ll re-quote that instead: >Mike: It seems to me to be a puzzle only if I assume that mind (citta) is a lasting thing. Citta, as I understand it, is 'colored' instantaneously by its attendant factors which vanish as rapidly as does citta. Purity and impurity arise and subside with mind in an instant, I think.< (Mike, pls add more helpful comments - we need you;-)) Chris, I agree with your appreciation of Robertk’s and other reminders and quotes on anatta. I also think the Nyantiloka entry is a good one. We need to hear these quotes often. My main objection to the article above were not so much the comments on ‘luminous’ which mostly seemed right, but the conclusions at the end which strongly suggest a ‘self’ to do something. I find the quotes you gave to be far more helpful as reminders of anatta: "Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found; The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there; Nibbána is, but not the man that enters it; The path is, but no traveler on it is seen." "Whosoever is not clear with regard to the conditionally arisen phenomena, and does not comprehend that all the actions are conditioned through ignorance, etc., he thinks that it is an ego that understands or does not understand, that acts or causes to act, that comes to existence at rebirth .... that has the sense-impression, that feels, desires, becomes attached, continues and at rebirth again enters a new existence" (Vis.M. XVII, 117). I note that you have no intention of buying into the Luminous controversy and know how to keep your feet dry unlike the recent Crocodile Dundee from Qld. (Btw, we now have some China experts, but they’ve learnt. They’re saying at the outset ‘this is tough’ and ‘call us when you have Star Croc ready for an easy catch’;-)We’re all missing your guy and the party atmosphere already;-( Metta, Sarah ====== 27545 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:09am Subject: ICARO - Re: [dsg] Re: Clinging to Wholesome States (was: Buddhaghosa....) Hi Icaro, --- icarofranca wrote: > Today we are reaching fully at the apple core! > In my Abhidhamma readings, I have even kept the mental image of > a "Supermarket of many kinds of Wholesome Consciousness" at certain > passages of Pathaana. At the Pathaana you get the 24 Paccayas and > their combinations with Kusala and Akusala, Hetu and Ahetu Dhammas, > almost as goodies on a market stand, ready to get catched up for > anyone interested. > You can get it all at the alobha side, and reach the Buddha´s > viewpoint that even such marvelous Dhammas are essentially Dukkha, > Anicca and Anatta. Only Nibbana is the Dhamma that stands at the > other shore! .... Thanks for your encouragement and confidence in Abhidhamma. I miss you when you're not around (akusala, I know;-(( )this is the only kind of supermarket shopping I like too;-) .... > So mote will be...snif! Snif! ..... Not sure what language this, but I'll assume it's good;-) Icaro, I wrote a couple of other posts to you, but forgot to put your name in the subject and you might not have seen them. When you have time, maybe you can go to escribe: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ key 'icaro' into the search and you should find all posts to you and gossip about you there;-) Anyone else who has been away might like to try this too, especially if you have an unusual name. Metta, Sarah ====== 27546 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:22am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James > James: Luminous does suggest purity to me. Pure light is > > luminous, pure gold is luminous, pure silver is luminous, etc. If > anything is corrupted or dirty it usually can't be described as > luminous. And different colors can be shiny, if they have a > reflective surface, but they cannot be described as luminous. > Luminous implies something that appears to have its own light source > of some sort. > > k: Who say that anything that is diry cannot be luminous, your > definition of luminious appear to have its own source of light, I > have have a slightly dirty bulb but it can still be luminous. How > about those luminious fishes, even though some of them have > transparent body that are illuminated, but there are some of them > have organs in their body that are dirty. They are luminous on the > outside but inside they are also as filthy as us. > > > kind regards > Ken O Hi Ken O, To determine the meaning of a metaphor you need to look at how the author intended its use. The Buddha had no experience with light bulbs (dirty or not) and luminous fish- and neither did his audience. The Buddha's time was before electricity and luminous fish are indigenous to the tropics and the deep ocean, not India. You have to consider common usage of the term. The things that would be luminous to the Buddha's audience would be the sun and moon and pure metals like gold and silver. Metta, James 27547 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:57am Subject: Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup F/W message to DSG from new member ===================================== Hello Every One, First of very sorry for the late response to the mail. I am Girish P. Pagare (M - 41) from India. I have been attending 10 day meditation courses at Vipassana Research Institute Dhammagiri, Igatpuri in India since last 11 years as taught by Shri S.N. Goenka in the tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin. Also practising meditation at home (to some extent). I have read the guidelines for members & would follow the same. With love & Metta to all, Girish. 27548 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 2:13am Subject: Re: Phonetic Glossary Hi Carl, and welcome aboard, You need not worry, there is no correct pronunciation of any word. At best, you will pronounce words the same as the members of groups you might wish to belong to. Or just to be different, you could pronounce them differently to how they are pronounced in groups you don't wish to belong to. Consider how American English, Australian English, New Zealand English, South African English all originated from English English in the last few hundred years. The vocubalary has stayed very similar to the original, but the pronunciation has changed markedly per region. No correct pronunciation anywhere. Perhaps a bit of good old 'strine (Australian English) pali would hit the spot at party's ? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > How do i pronounce Pali! I need a glossory that is phonetic. I > may never understand pali. But if i could be firm in my enuncation > of Pali it would be cool. I just want to know how to say the > word. Not a Pali glossary, just a simple pronunciation of that > glossery. ...c7 27549 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: New Member Hi Carl, Many thanks for adding your photo and also for kindly writing to Star Kid Philip. I’ll see him on Friday. --- Carl wrote: > Anyway, I like the feeling of being convoluted! Reality depending on > unreality depending on reality depending on......... .... ;-) Please be patient with us all here. It’s not easy for any of us - too much moha (ignorance) for any of it to be easy. If you keep asking questions and adding your comments, everyone will appreciate it. Sometimes we need to put aside some posts or Tipitaka references and look at them later to appreciate. I know others would agree with this. .... > Again, thanks for all the welcomes. This is indeed a place for me to > learn and study in depth the Dhamma. ..... Thanks to all the members, including yourself, for this. ... > Just a little more about me. I am married, Living in the USA, > Retired, 60 years old, Overweight, been a Buddhapup for about 10 > years, started "consciousness training" about thirty five years ago > through many self-help psyc paperbacks. I am methodical, > analyitical, a poor speller and a rather slow learner. I have > particapated in other Buddhist boards in the past. .... Thanks for this - I’m sure we’d nearly all consider ourselves slow learners here. Hope this ‘Buddhist board’ doesn’t become a past tense;-) Just let us know how we can help keep it in the present. .... > And awww heck! I just posted my picture. It is wonderful to see > the members pictures posted for this group. I hope all members would > be interested in posting their picture! Thanks c7carl .... This is a great encouragement to others (I hope). Look forward to more of your comments. I was going to add a little more on your points, but one steam-roller at a time, I think;-) Metta, Sarah p.s If you would like to look at other steam-roller saved posts from the archives on the subject, pls look under ‘concepts and realities’ at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Also, the first chapter of Nina's book 'Abhidhamma in Daily Life' might be helpful: http://www.abhidhamma.org/ 27550 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 3:11am Subject: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Sarah and all, This Dhamma-discussion weekend at Andrews'property at Cooran had a slightly different cast to previous weekends. Azita was much missed. Klaas who, I think, was originally from Holland - or its "best" part, Friesland (but migrated to Oz in the 50's or 60's ) - made a significant contribution to the discussions on his first visit. Andrew, KenH and some of the other men had known him for many years, so there was the happy atmosphere of a reunion, with lots of reminiscing, threaded throughout the weekend. Klaas is a cat-person, but not allowed to have a cat in his flat. His bed at Cooran was actually in one of the cat areas and he was 'in heaven' with a purring Devon Rex curled up with him all night. I'll leave KenH, Steve and Andrew to mention any of the dhamma discussions that they found significant or had questions about. Particularly why we didn't get past the Introduction to the Anapanasati sutta ...... and whether nibbana is the only unconditioned dhamma. We considered an article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu titled 'Samsara' to remind us all that samsara is the wandering on through the frightful chain of rebirths, not just this one single lifetime where we currently live. Samsara is a process, not a place. It is the answer, not to the question "Where are we?", but to the question "What are we doing?" (i.e. samsara-ing). We touched on what 'keeping the precepts' means - i.e. if one is sitting in Dhamma discussions, not guzzling alcohol, commiting mayhem or frolicking with wild, wild women (or men) - this doesn't mean one is presently keeping at least three of the precepts. Keeping the precepts is 'abstaining' from breaking them - and this can only happen when the opportunity to break them is successfully resisted. KenH, through the intention to 'save' and 'not harm', created 'The Great March Fly Debacle' with the help of an almost empty sugar jar, and the world's fastest snatching of flies. This led to some interesting discussions about non-harming, the vipaka of flies, the kamma of KenH, why every march fly on the property was attracted to him (some inventive answers here :-)), and what are the chances of splinting a particular flys' middle left hand leg. The answer is 'two - Buckleys and none'. :-) There was a discussion on an article by Maurice Walshe (translator of the Digha Nikaya) about Dana - "Giving from the Heart" about intention and recipients (which also included a very interesting remark about the Vesantara Jataka :-)). There was definitely not consensus on the Buddhist idea of some recipients being more worthy than others to receive gifts, or the fact that more beneficial vipaka would be generated by givng to one person rather than another. We sat around the campfire on Saturday night (expertly built by KenH, ably assisted by Steve), and tried to encourage one of our number to explain the fire sermon and what nibbana was, but this dwindled down to nine of us sitting companionably around the fire, gazing into its depths, silently sipping tea. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time 27551 From: bodhi2500 Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Hi Sarah, All Here is a tit-bit from the cooran weekend. Sarah wrote: > Glad to see you back and look forward to more tit-bits from you >all. I hope Steve will add some of his comments and Dhp comy >references on `sabbe DHAMMA anatta' etc All Dhamma are without a soul (Sabbe Dhammaa anattaa) When this, with wisdom, one discerns, Then one is disgusted with ill; This is the path to purity. Tattha sabbe dhammaati pa~ncakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa. There "all dhammas" 5 Khandhas only is meant. My comment was that to say that the Dhammapada quote says that Nibbana is anatta is not quite correct, because in Dhammapada 279, when the Buddha says All Dhammas are anatta, he is only referring to the 5 khandhas. My understanding of the passage is that the Buddha said this passage with reference to discerning with wisdom the 5 aggregates as anatta, which is the path to purity. To say that "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa" includes Nibbana we would have to quote the same passage but from a different part of the Canon. Commentary on "sabbe dhammaa anattaa" from Samyutta Khandhavagga> Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhuumakadhammaa anattaa. All dhammas are anatta = all dhammas of the 4 planes are anatta. Which would include Nibbana. Here is the complete commentary to Dhammapada279> Tattha sabbe dhammaati pa~ncakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa. Anattaati 'maa jiiyantu maa miiyantuu'ti vase vattetu.m na sakkaati avasavattana.t.thena anattaa attasu~n~naa assaamikaa anissaraati attho. Sesa.m purimasadisamevaati. Steve. ps. Thanks once again Andrew and Sandra for your hospitality. 27552 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James > To determine the meaning of a metaphor you need to look at how the > author intended its use. The Buddha had no experience with light > bulbs (dirty or not) and luminous fish- and neither did his > audience. The Buddha's time was before electricity and luminous > fish are indigenous to the tropics and the deep ocean, not India. You have to consider common usage of the term. The things that would be luminous to the Buddha's audience would be the sun and moon and pure metals like gold and silver. k: James that is what you think the author intend to use it. When we discuss it I give you my position. There also is a position from the commentaries. k: So do you think the metaphor that consciouness is like a magic trick (where Buddha use it in Foam Sutta) is not an accurate description of the mind while luminous is a better word. There are two ways to look at it a. The mind is luminous and anatta (like a magic trick) b. The mind is luminous will mean it is pure in nature. k: For b: I think it is not nice for me to keep on standing on my point. Would you describe this pure in nature, what does it mean, is it anatta, how does it congruent with anatta. kind regards Ken O P.S. Do they have firefly in India at that time? 27553 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 3:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Victor Actually I am quite uncomfortable to use this word not-self to describe Anatta. To me i prefer to leave it Anatta and not translate it at all. A better definition should be as empty of a self as describe in Sunna Sutta. It is neither self nor no self. It is neither existence nor non-existence. But since I think some dictionary define it as not-self what can I do :). I neither a pali nor an english expert. Cheers Ken O 27554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 5:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Herman I do not for a moment doubt your experience and what you have told us about it. But it seems to me that the significance of one's experiences in terms of the Buddha's teaching can only be determined by reference to that teaching. So I would see a familiarity with the Buddha's word as essential regardless of one's predisposition or level of attainment. Just my take. Thanks for sharing with us. Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Dang, a near perfect weekend spoiled by concensus with Jon Abbott > :-) > > I know it is not useful for others to hear of my personal > experiences, but I need to throw some in to show why I would > question your paragraph, thus: > > > But, and this may be our main difference, I believe the > conditions > > under which that understanding can arise are quite specific and > need > > to be understood intellectually in the first place if there is to > be > > any chance of them being fulfilled. > > One evening, about eight years ago, whilst reclining in a chair > after a days work, out of the blue, a realisation that there was no > Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life hit home. I sat in > that chair belly-laughing for a full ten minutes. That realisation > was the funniest thing. But ..... once real, always real. > > I would find it impossible, and also undesirable, to trace this > insight back to other insights and create some causal chain out of > it. > > I can honestly say that I was not a student of Buddhism at the > time, > and anything I would have read about anatta previously would have > gone right over my head. 27555 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 5:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] The arising of rupas Howard There are many interesting points in your post which I may respond on. However, there is 1 area that I'd like you to clarify, in case I am misunderstanding your position. You say: <> My question is, if the hardness we take for the back of the head is not arising in this world already, how there could be touching the back of the head in the first place (which you say then *results in* the arising of a hardness)? The sequence of phenomena we call "touching the back of the head" is essentially the meeting together of different hardnesses. To make my question quite clear, how, under your theory, could 2 un-observed rupas ever come into contact (e.g., a person is hit on the top of the head by an unseen falling object, a tree is struck by lightening, etc)? Thanks. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > Jon, to me hardness or an odor or a sight are contents of > certain > experiences (their objective aspects). As I see it, a hardness or > an odor or a > sight, if it is something other than that, must occur "somewhere," > especially when it arises allegedly unobserved. ... 27556 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 5:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi James P.S. Do they have firefly in India at that time? Yes. Metta, James 27557 From: Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] The arising of rupas Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/1/03 8:45:22 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > My question is, if the hardness we take for the back of the head is > not arising in this world already, how there could be touching the > back of the head in the first place (which you say then *results in* > the arising of a hardness)? The sequence of phenomena we call > "touching the back of the head" is essentially the meeting together > of different hardnesses. To make my question quite clear, how, under > your theory, could 2 un-observed rupas ever come into contact (e.g., > a person is hit on the top of the head by an unseen falling object, a > tree is struck by lightening, etc)? > > ======================== I understand and sympathize with your question, but I think it presumes a world of external objects that are merely conceptual projections. All that I take for "real" (or, better, "actual") are experiential conditions in some mindstream or other. Prior conditions, provided certain ones of them (and enough of them) have occurred, constitute what we might call a potential rupa (or a potential for a rupa), but a rupa, itself, is the content of an experience occurring in some mindstream. The business about touching the back of one's head or of being struck by lightning are stories, as I see it, but not groundless ones - they are stories which we associate with patterns of actual experiences in various mindstreams. But, as I said, this phenomenalist position, though one which I accept, is not something I know to be true. There could be a hidden, unobservable something lurking behind experience - but it is neither known nor knowable. If I were to somehow learn - I can't imagine how - that "reality" is a true duality consisting of a material world (of some nature - let's say consisting of material events/conditions) and a separate mental world (with which there is, of course, direct mental contact), that somehow these separate worlds come into contact (with the material world appearing to mind in a certain form) so that there are material actualities and there are also the material objects of consciousness that more or less accurately reflect them (for it would seem that the hard matter and the felt hardness are not the same thing), but that each of these separate realms are conditioned, impermanent, insubstantial, impersonal, and unsatisfying, I would say that I had learned something reasonably compatible with the Dhamma. My hesitancy in calling this scheme plausible is the sharp separation between matter and mind, the means of connecting the two up, the complexity of the scheme, and, most of all, the lack of means of ever learning that it is the case. Generally I abide by the principle of not accepting the positive existence of something without evidence, but certainlynot when there *is no means* of verifying the existence. Accordingly, it was reasonable for scientists to give up the notion of ether (filling space, and serving as a medium for transmission of light) when there was no evidence for its existence. How much more reasonable is it to give up the notion of an *external* world of matter when it is *in principle* unverifiable! Touch sensations, warmth and cold sensations, hardness sensations, sights, etc are all experiential - they are not aspects of an external material world. Such a presumed external material world is a dreamed-of hidden something imagined as underlying physical experience; it is concept-only. That's how I see the matter. Can I prove that I'm right in this? Of course not, and I have no inclination to try. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27558 From: htootintnaing Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] How To Get Through The Samsara ( 02 ) Dear Sarah, Thanks for your kind reply and showing interest in my posts. I am trying to present clear account in all possible way. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Dear Htoo & All, > > I greatly enjoy your series on Cetasikas - ------------------------------------------- Sarah : In paramatha dhamma terms, what do you mean here by choice and who does the choosing? Are these conditioned realities too? Thank you again for all your other helpful posts, Metta, Sarah ------------------------------------------------- Htoo : Dear Sarah, I would answer indirectly. A baby was adopted by a couple who do not have even a child. He was brought up in their home. He called them as ' Pa Pa ' ( Dad ), and ' Ma Ma ' ( Mom ). He really thought that they were his blood-related parents. But once he was told that his current care givers who were behaving as if they were his parents were actually not of his. Due to this information given by a neighbour, the child realized that they were not his parent ( not his father and his mother ). But he loved them as they brought them up. So he continued using the word ' Pa Pa ' ( Dad ) and ' Ma Ma ' ( Mom ) even though he knew that they were not. There is no ' who ' in Paramattha Dhamma. The choice I used was just a word. If that choice arises, it is actually arising of Adhimokkha Cetasika. It is an ultimate reality. ------------------------------------------------- >p.s. Thank you for posting your comprehensive Pali glossary. When we were recently in Myanmar, our Myanmar friends took a little time to get used to our pronunciation of Pali terms and vice versa as both Thai and Burmese have their own pronunciations of some sounds which are different from the Sinhalese. Looking at your glossary, I esp. notice the difference for these consonants - ?c? which you pronounce ? s?, ?j? as ?z?, ?th? as ?ht? [as in your name;-)], ?v? as ?w? [common in thai too], ?s? as ?th?, ? v? as ?b?. Thank you. ======================== Htoo Naing : P.S : There are international phonetic symbols. We can see the symbols. But the actual sounds will need an audio version of data. I am not good at phonetic. But I can pronounce nearly accurately some difficult sounds. 27559 From: Htoo Naing Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 10:03am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 04 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, Those who have a wish to get through the Samsara have a good mind. The pure wish to get through it is switched on by Chandha ( will ). If Chandha exists and this Chandha becomes the head of all accompanying Nama Dhamma, then everything will be sorted out. This is the main key to success for everything including attainment of Nibbana. This Cetasika Chandha should not be underestimated. If Chandha works to its mightiest strength, success is sure and the promising results are to be seen with time. Chandha makes a power for success. It becomes a will power. This will power can give rise to accomplishing everything. Chandha is one of 4 Adhipati Dhamma ( heading Dhamma ). And it also works as Iddhipada Dhamma ( Causal Dhamma of accomplishing ). If the Dhammafarer ( represent for all who are searching for Dhamma ) has Samma Chandha, the right wish and will, this will help him in everything he does. If the Dhammafarer has a wish to get through the Samsara, then he will struggle to overcome all hazzards and hassles everywhere. If Chandha leads him, he will try to collect Dhamma related to the practice which helps get through the Samsara. As the target is Arahatta Magga, which is the noblest Nana, the Dhammafarer is already full of good wish. This helps him to keep at least 5 precepts strictly. And he will do more Sila whenever practicable like keeping 8 precepts on full moon day and dark moon day and possibly mid-waxing moon day and mid-waning moon day. And to the most keeping these Sila for life. If the Dhammafarer stays with Vipassana all the time, keeping 8 precepts will not be too hard to do. Killing is not of Sappurisa ( good-minded people ) even in subtle or inspicuous way. So Panatipata ( avoidance of killing ) has been already kept in good-minded Dhammafarer. Stealing again in any circumstance and situation is not of the Vipassana meditator. Adinnaadana ( avoidance of stealing ) has been kept under strict control. Unlawful sex is not of good-minded people. Even sex in general is not the matter to be practised by the Vipassana meditator. If sex in general not of interest, then unlawful sex or Kamesumicchaacara will never be committed by the Vipassana meditator. Telling lies is not of good-minded people. Especially the Vipassana meditator will not lie in any situation. Moreover, telling unintelligible words like harsh speech, non-sense stories, telling messages that help beloved associate to become dissociated are also not of the Vipassana meditator's practice. Drinking alcohol and taking intoxicants help Akusala Dhamma to arise as they put intelligent wisdom away as ignorance occupies the mind. The desire to be intoxicated is not of the Vipassana meditator's practice. So, the Vipassana meditator if he is serious will be free of breaking 5 precepts in any circumstance and any situation. As his target is Arahatta Magga Nana, he will do Sila as a basis as much as possible. As he is on the practice of Vipassana all the time, he will not wish to make himself or herself to be good-looking or to be more beautiful by taking food which is much more than enough for living. In this way the practitioner of Vipassana has no problem with '' Vikalabojjanna '' or having meal after mid-day. If this can be practised, there will be much much more time to practise Vipassana. As thinking of food, thinking for a variety of cuisine, doing shopping, preparation for cooking and cooking itself, preparation for meal, having meal, washing up everything after meal, and much more make the practitioner less time to practise Dhamma. This precept if practicable is quite helpful. Uccasayana-Mahasayana ( living with luxurious things and or staying above the level where there live senior sounded people stay or staying at high level ) will not be a problem for the Vipassana meditator as this is nothing to do with him. Nicca, Gita, Vadita, Visuka, Dassana, Malagandha, Vilepana, Dadana, Mandana, Vibusana are not to be practised by the Vipassana meditator. Dancing_which is connected with lobha-hooked amusing, listening to music_which drifts the mind away from Vipassana meditation, playing musical instruments_which is connected with wandering spreading mind with lobha-hooked amusing, singing_which is not the practice of the meditator, watching festive entertainment_which drifts away the mind from the meditational object, overusing body beauty things etc etc are not for the meditator and if he is in practice this is also not a problem. As soon as the wish ( Chandha ) arises and according to its dictation, all these Sila things will be practised. It is much much better to obtain Sila from a Venerable or if possible from an Arahatta monk than just avoiding of ill-doing by self. Mr Black does not kill any life. Mr White does not kill any life. But Mr Black avoid in his own preference while Mr White avoid these ill-doings specifically as he has obtained Sila given by a Venerable. In this example, Mr White excels Mr Black in terms of Kusala. So whenever practicable Sila should be obtained from a Venerable monk. Living with Sila makes the individual feel ligher, more plicable, more tender, calmer, more tranquilized and all other Kusala Cetasika or mental factors arise and help him practising Dhamma well. All these Kusala arise from Samma Chandha of the wish that wants to get through the Samsara. As he intends to achieve Arahatta Magga sooner or later, the Dhamma practitioner will start to practise Vipassana meditation as soon as he decides to get through the Samsara. May all beings feel ease and peace and practise Vipassana With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing htootintnaing@y... Moderator of JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 27560 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:panna cetasika 2. Hi, Howard, I do not know where to begin, there are so many points. We got stuck with the object of anger. I liked what Larry wrote, being angry about anger. And that it is difficult to always know the object. Cittas with their accompanying cetasikas arise and pass away so fast, and panna cetasika has to be very keen to know realities as they are. Citta cognizes an object and cetasikas also experience that object, but each in their own way. Maybe we stumble over some words like object. Let us take pleasant feeling for a change. Pleasant feeling can arise together with attachment and then it is akusala. We have to verify this in our life. We like a delicious flavour, and there may be pleasant feeling with the citta. It can also be indifferent feeling. We like it, we are attached to it. The flavour is the object. Attachment is a cetasika which likes an object. Attachment is always attachment to something. Pleasant feeling also has that object. We should not think too much about *object*, then we make things too complicated. The object is simply what is cognized, remembered, felt, liked, disliked, etc. There is an object that is experienced right now, and we have to verify this. There is not only pleasant feeling accompanying the citta which likes something, there is also rapture (piti), bliss or enthusiasm. It is difficult to know the difference between pleasant feeling and rapture. It is true, the Abhidhamma makes us realize how little we know. Abhidhamma clears the muddled waters of ignorance, to use your simile but with a different twist. When the citta is kusala, it can also be accompanied by pleasant feeling and rapture. This has to be studied and investigated with patience. Without the Abhidhamma we would have wrong understanding of the Suttanta, and, wrong understanding of the eightfold Path. For example, take the Mindfulness of Breathing. We read here about piti and happy feeling. If we are not careful we may be on the wrong track, thinking that feeling happy and relaxed while concentrating on breathing there are kusala cittas. But here the sutta deals with happy feeling and bliss accompanying jhanacitta, thus, kusala of a high degree. We have to learn the difference between pleasant feeling that is kusala and that is akusala. We read: V) He trains thus ; he trains thus . (VI) He trains thus ; he trains thus . As regards the second tetrad (marked V-VIII), the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 226) comments: (V) He trains thus , that is, making happiness (píti, also translated as rapture) known, making it plain. Herein, the happiness is experienced in two ways: (a) with the object, and (b) with non-confusion. As regards , the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 227) explains: How is happiness experienced with the object? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (píti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them the happiness is experienced with the object owing to the obtaining of the jhåna, because of the experiencing of the object. After the jhånacitta has fallen away paññå realizes the characteristic of píti as it is: only a kind of nåma, which is impermanent and not self. .. ***** op 27-11-2003 01:08 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: From contact with an object, feeling > follows (dependent on that contact), and what one feels one obsesses about, > and then anger may arise. As far as the suttas are concerned this is basic > Buddhism it seems to me. First comes the contact, later the feeling, still > later the reaction of craving or aversion. N: You also studied the Dependent Origination: contact conditions feeling.They are coarising. They arise with each citta. When citta experiences an object through the ears, there is earcontact conditioning feeling at that moment. Not a feeling arising later on, that feeling accompanies another citta with another contact. In the context of the Dependent Origination, see Dictionary Nyanatiloka: The sensorial and the mental impressions [N:contacts] are for the feeling associated therewith a condition by way of co-nascence, association, mutuality, etc. Nina. 27561 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: anapanasati 4 a anapanasati 4 a We should go back to the third tetrad of the sutta on mindfulness of breathing: (IX) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in experiencing the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out experiencing the (manner of) consciousness². (X) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in gladdening the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness². (XI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in concentrating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out concentrating the (manner of) consciousness². (XII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in liberating the (manner of) consciousness²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness²- on that occasion, monks, a monk abides contemplating citta in citta, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. I do not say, monks, that there is mindfulness of breathing in one who is forgetful and does not clearly comprehend. That is why on that occasion, monks, a monk abides contemplating citta in citta, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having put away covetousness and grief regarding the world. The Visuddhimagga states: IX: In the third tetrad the experiencing of the (manner of) consciousness must be understood to be through four jhanas. As regards the words in the third tetrad: ³(X) I shall breathe in...breathe out gladdening the (manner of) consciousness², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 231) states that there is gladdening in two ways, namely through concentration and through insight. We read: ŒHow through concentration? He attains the two jhånas in which happiness (piti) is present. At the time when he has actually entered upon them he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it, by means of the happiness associated with the jhåna. How through insight? After entering upon and emerging from one of the two jhånas accompanied by happiness he comprehends with insight that happiness associated with the jhåna as liable to destruction and to fall, thus at the actual time of insight he inspires the mind with gladness, instils gladness into it by making the happiness associated with jhåna the object.¹ XI: Concentrating (samaadaha.m) the (manner of) consciousness:"evenly (samam) placing (adahanto) the mind, evenly putting it on its object by means of the first jhana and so on. Or alternatively when, having entered upon those jhanas and emerged from them, he comprehends with insight the consciousness associated with the jhana as liable to destruction and fall, then at the actual time of insight momentary unification of the mind arises through the penetration of the characteristics... ******** Nina. 27562 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 10:10am Subject: FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 26 B Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 26 B : Relevant Sutta Passage: Aana-apaanassati.m, Raahula, bhaavana.m bhaavehi. Rahula, cultivate the development of mindfulness on in and out breathing. Text Commentary: idaani therena pucchita.m pa~nha.m vitthaarento aanaapaanassatintiaadimaaha. Now the Buddha, when he explained in detail the question asked by the venerable Rahula, said, ³Mindfulness of breathing...² and so on. tattha ida.m kamma.t.thaana~nca kamma.t.thaanabhaavanaa ca paa.liattho ca saddhi.m aanisa.msakathaaya sabbo sabbaakaarena This meditation subject, its development and the meaning of the text, has been explained in all aspects together with the exposition of its benefit, visuddhimagge anussatiniddese vitthaaritoyeva. in the section on Recollections in the Visuddhimagga. ima.m desana.m bhagavaa neyyapuggalavaseneva parini.t.thaapesiiti. The Buddha finished this discourse (spoken) for a person who needed guidance *. ****** English: Now the Buddha, when he explained in detail the question asked by the venerable Rahula, said, ³Mindfulness of breathing...² and so on. This meditation subject, its development and the meaning of the text, has been explained in all aspects together with the exposition of its benefit, in the section on Recollections in the Visuddhimagga. The Buddha finished this discourse (spoken) for a person who needed guidance *. ____________ *In the Puggala Pa~n~natti, it is explained that there are four types of persons: One who attains enlightenment quickly at the beginning of a discourse (vipacita~n~nuu). One who attains after a more detailed explanation (uggha.tita~n~nuu). One who needs more guidance (neyyapuggala). One who understands the Dhamma but does not attain enlightenment (padaparama). ******** End of the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. Nina. 27563 From: Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:panna cetasika 2. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/1/2003 1:10:07 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > From contact with an object, feeling > > follows (dependent on that contact), and what one feels one obsesses about, > > and then anger may arise. As far as the suttas are concerned this is basic > > Buddhism it seems to me. First comes the contact, later the feeling, still > > later the reaction of craving or aversion. > N: You also studied the Dependent Origination: contact conditions > feeling.They are coarising. They arise with each citta. When citta > experiences an object through the ears, there is earcontact conditioning > feeling at that moment. Not a feeling arising later on, that feeling > accompanies another citta with another contact. In the context of the > Dependent Origination, see Dictionary Nyanatiloka: The sensorial and the > mental impressions [N:contacts] are for the feeling associated therewith a > condition by way of co-nascence, association, mutuality, > etc. ============================== I do accept the possibility that some of the dependency links may involve a co-occurrence. In particular, the links of vi~n~nana -> namarupa -> salayatana may well involve co-occurence. In fact, in one sutta, vi~n~nana <-> namarupa is made explicit. So, indeed, it could well be that vedana co-arises along with the object in a mindstate. In fact, I think I was precipitous in thinking that the feeling must follow the contact in time. The fact that we know *what* is felt as pleasant does, indeed, support the simultaneity. (If the feeling occurred afterwards, we might well not know what it is that is felt as pleasant!) So I do accept the co-occurence as a good possibility, backing off from my previous position. However, feeling is felt, and for feeling to arise unfelt makes no sense to me. I would be comfortable with the claim, for example, that the sensation of "very strong, sharp pressure on the body" is felt as unpleasant at the very occasion that that pressure is the object of consciousness, but I would not be comfortable with the claim that the concomitant pleasant feeling is felt only after the actual occurrence of the feeling. To me, the arising of a feeling of pleasantness and feeling something as pleasant are one and the same. When we feel pleasantness is exactly when pleasantness has arisen, whether that is simultaneous with the object eliciting the pleasant feeling or whether it is subsequent to it. With metta, Howard 27564 From: Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 6:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Steve: "To say that "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa" includes Nibbana we would have to quote the same passage but from a different part of the Canon. Commentary on "sabbe dhammaa anattaa" from Samyutta Khandhavagga> Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhuumakadhammaa anattaa. All dhammas are anatta = all dhammas of the 4 planes are anatta. Which would include Nibbana." Hi Steve ( & Nina ), Here is B. Bodhi's trans. of this commentary: SN, p. 1084, n. 180, Spk: All formations of the three planes (sabbe tebhuumakaa sa.nkhaaraa) are impermanent; all phenomena of the four planes (sabbe catubhuumakaa dhammaa) are nonself. Larry: I looked-up "plane" in CMA and found that there are 4 planes of consciousness and 4 planes of existence. The 4 planes of consciousness are: sense sphere, fine-material sphere, immaterial sphere, and supramundane. The 4 planes of existence are: woeful plane, sensuous blissful plane, fine-material sphere plane, and immaterial sphere plane. I believe? all 4 consciousnesses can arise in all 4 planes. Technically speaking nibbana doesn't have a plane to itself but I suppose we could include it as an object of consciousness in any plane (either planes of consciousness or planes of existence). The intent of the commentary seems to be to include nibbana somehow without actually saying so. How do you see this? It seems a little confusing to me. I don't see any difference between the 3 planes and the 4 planes unless "3 planes" refers to the planes of existence (combining the first 2) and "4 planes" refers to planes of consciousness. Nina, do I have this right? Larry ------------------ Here is the sutta quotation: SN 22 90 When ths was said, the elder bhikkhus said to the Venerable Channa: "Form, friend Channa, is impermanent, feeling is impermannt, perception is impermanent, volitional formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, cosciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself." Larry: Channa goes on to say he also thinks in this way but the thought "But who is my self" keeps occuring. Ananda then recites the Kaccaanagota Sutta (SN 12 15) which is concerned with the middle way between existence and nonexistence by way of the stream of the rise and fall that is impermanence (my characterization). In this sutta there is the line "he does not take a stand on 'my self'". I think not taking a stand on 'my self' is concerned with the nature of existence as a flow of rise and fall while the anatta characteristic is concerned with the undesirableness of khandhas because they are unsatisfactory (dukkha) because they are impermanent. The Buddha definitely takes a stand on the undesirabeness of [anatta of] the khandhas. I don't see the anatta characteristic as having much to do with either the nature of ego or the nature of existence. The Channa Sutta commentary is a puzzlement. L. 27565 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 7:03pm Subject: Re: October thoughts from Cooran Christine and RobertK (and Sarah, Nina, anyone interested in Cooran), Thanks for that report Christine, you have an excellent memory for detail -- I had forgotten a lot of it. ---------------------- C: > I'll leave KenH, Steve and Andrew to mention any of the dhamma discussions that they found significant or had questions about. Particularly why we didn't get past the Introduction to the Anapanasati sutta ...... ------------------------- In order to preserve old (and not so old) friendships, we tried to agree as much as possible. But the Anapanasati- sutta does bring conflicting interpretations to a head (ask any dsg member). We didn't get past the intro but, when you think about it, we covered quite a lot of ground. For example: Can an ordinary, non-jhana, mindfulness of breathing be used in a similar, if less effective, manner? No, unless you can be sure your consciousness is kusala. Can the habitual cultivation of a quiet, non-monkey, mind lead to satipatthana? No (with similar proviso plus the knowledge of Dhamma). If we choose to learn the art of jhanna absorption, shouldn't we start by concentrating on an object? No, we should start by keeping the precepts, practising moderation (of eating and sleeping), and otherwise suppressing the five hindrances. If (IF), it is true that anapanasati is not for just anyone, are there other forms of samatha meditation that we can engage in? This prompted the production of a dsg post, 25818, by RobertK, which reads in part: "There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati (meditation on death)- that are suitable for all times. For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii 13 p213 Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and Dhammanusati and several other samatha objects: ""` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging crowded with children" "In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 The great chapter Dhammadina ) 500 rich merchants came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train themselves thus: ""as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will spend our days learning them. That is how you must spend your days."" (end quote) It's a pity you weren't there, Robert, to field questions. I would like to know how this fits in, if at all, with formal meditation. Also, I suspect that the above way of 'spending our days' should not be understood as; "Later, I will learn Dhamma, now, I will attend to ordinary business," or even; "Now, I will learn Dhamma, later, I will attend to ordinary business." I think, rather, that the admonition describes conditionality and is to be understood here and now in its entirety . (If you know what I mean.) ----------------- C: > . This led to some interesting discussions about non-harming, the vipaka of flies, the kamma of KenH, why every march fly on the property was attracted to him (some inventive answers here :-)), ----------------- There was one answer which I was too modest to suggest (or, tried to suggest but no one would listen): Any keen observer of nature will tell you that march flies will not be shooed away. Like sharks, they might circle at a safe distance but they will always come back for the kill (painful, stinging bite). Other people were gently brushing the marchies away. This was very magnanimous, very Buddhist-like, but it only moved them on to the next person. When they landed on me they got no further (except into a bottle for later release). Admittedly, there were casualties: (Warning: the following confession may disturb some members:) There was one accidental death (despite Christine's medical attention), and there was one, squashed, victim of a temper tantrum. (It does hurt when they bite the back of your heel!) Kind regards, (?) Ken H PS: I won't comment on the subject heading. 27566 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Dear Christine, Thank you very much for your lively and entertaining description. I especially like the samsara-ing. Good reminder. The campfire must have been fun. Nina. op 01-12-2003 12:11 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Samsara is a process, not a place. It is the answer, > not to the question "Where are we?", but to the question "What are we > doing?" (i.e. samsara-ing). 27567 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 9:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/luminous. Dear Ken O and James, This is only to show you that also in olden times there was debate about colour and luminous. Here is an extract of the subcommentary to the sutta, about luminous: @.tiikaa Pabhassarasutta.m with the a.t.thakathaa & Dhammapaala's .tiikaa and translations. N: This consciousness, monks, is luminous, and it is indeed corrupted by oncoming defilements. N: As to the ninth sutta,¾ luminous¾.means clear, pure. N:> With reference to the ninth sutta, „luminous¾ , means very pure because of its natural purity. Therefore he said , . N:< consciousness>, this is the life-continuum. N: But how does there exist indeed a colour of citta? No, there is not. N: Since it has taken on luminosity he spoke of it as a quality obtained in the colour element. He asked, N: Someone else has said that there is no colour for that which is immmaterial, but after he has refuted this and explaining that various texts nevertheless state this of such consciousness because of its natural purity etc. , he made the statement beginning with . N: There, however, it was stated that he spoke thus with reference to the consciousness that is composed, clean and very pure. N: Therefore he said, „ this consciousness also, because of the absence of defilements is , means that life-continuum. Nina. op 01-12-2003 12:25 schreef Kenneth Ong op ashkenn2k@y...: > k: For b: I think it is not nice for me to keep on standing on my > point. Would you describe this pure in nature, what does it mean, is > it anatta, how does it congruent with anatta. 27568 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 11:33pm Subject: Re: October thoughts from Cooran Dear KenH, Christine, Andrew , Steve and all, You have a great group in Queensland. Almost sacreligious for a Kiwi to say, but could I claim some Australian heritage by pointing out that my father was born in Adelaide and met my mother there? Ivan (Australian living in Bangkok) seemed impressed by that. In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > > "There are other types of samatha - such as Maranasati > (meditation on death)- that are suitable for all times. > For example the Anguttara nikaya (Book of the Elevens ii > 13 p213 Mahanama) says about Buddhanusati and > Dhammanusati and several other samatha objects: > > ""` you should develop it as you sit, as you stand, as > you lie, as you apply yourself to business. You should > make it grow as you dwell at home in your lodging > crowded with children" > > "In the Samyutta nikaya V (Sayings on stream entry p347 > The great chapter Dhammadina ) 500 rich merchants > came to see the Buddha . They asked how they should > live their lives. The Buddha suggested that they train > themselves thus: > > ""as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagatha, > deep, deep in meaning, transcendental and concerned > with the void (about anatta) from time to time we will > spend our days learning them. That is how you must > spend your days."" > > (end quote) It's a pity you weren't there, Robert, to > field questions. __ Am booked to stop for a few days in early August in Brisbane, hope Cooran is a rental car drive from there? __ I would like to know how this fits in, > if at all, with formal meditation. Also, I suspect that > the above way of 'spending our days' should not be > understood as; "Later, I will learn Dhamma, now, I will > attend to ordinary business," or even; "Now, I will learn > Dhamma, later, I will attend to ordinary business." I > think, rather, that the admonition describes > conditionality and is to be understood here and now in > its entirety . (If you know what I mean.) > _____ I think no rules (to repeat what Acharn Sujin always says) about these matters. Check to see whether we are really investigating conditionality, or are our actions rooted in subtle wrong view that believes in a self who is doing the investigating. If wrong view is seen it is known, and that is the way it can be given up. If it is not seen as wrong view then it will be clung to and even considered as right view. It is not a matter of time as to how this can be known because it can be known right now. On the other hand it must take a long, long time because avijja (ignorance) is so powerful and is conditioned to arise, no self who can stop it arising. RobertK 27569 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 11:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 26 B Dear Nina & All, Thank you for this very thorough series with its wonderful commentary. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > ima.m desana.m bhagavaa neyyapuggalavaseneva parini.t.thaapesiiti. > > The Buddha finished this discourse (spoken) for a person who needed > guidance ______ > *In the Puggala Pa~n~natti, it is explained that there are four types of > persons: One who attains enlightenment quickly at the beginning of a > discourse (vipacita~n~nuu). One who attains after a more detailed > explanation (uggha.tita~n~nuu). One who needs more guidance > (neyyapuggala). > One who understands the Dhamma but does not attain enlightenment > (padaparama). > > ******** > > End of the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta. .... And if Rahula was one who needed detailed guidance (neyyapuggala) after detailed explanations, who are we to think we don't need a lot, lot more detailed guidance? Metta, Sarah ====== 27570 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 1, 2003 11:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Welcome to dhammastudygroup Hi Girish, Welcome to DSG and thanks for introducing yourself. There are quite a number of people here who have attended courses with Shri S.N. Goenka. I just attended one with Mr Goenka in India 30 yrs ago! Whereabouts do you live in India? I look forward to any of your contributions here and please let us know if you have any questions or comments. It's a very active list these days and I know it can be a bit overwhelming for newcomers. You may need to skip the more technical posts initially. with metta, Sarah p.s For any newcomers who are both new to the list and new to the Dhamma (not Girish), you may like to look at some saved posts under "new to the list" by scrolling down at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts ====== > First of very sorry for the late response to the mail. > I am Girish P. Pagare (M - 41) from India. I have been > attending 10 day meditation courses at Vipassana > Research Institute Dhammagiri, Igatpuri in India since > last 11 years as taught by Shri S.N. Goenka in the > tradition of Sayagyi U Ba Khin. Also practising > meditation at home (to some extent). > > I have read the guidelines for members & would follow > the same. 27571 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 0:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Hi Steve (& Larry), I’m glad you’re able to join the Cooran weekends. --- bodhi2500 wrote: > Hi Sarah, All > Here is a tit-bit from the cooran weekend. .... I was very interested to read your tit-bit indeed and I’m at a loss for an explanation for what the comy says here; > Commentary to Dhammapada279> > > Tattha sabbe dhammaati pa~ncakkhandhaa eva adhippetaa. > There "all dhammas" 5 Khandhas only is meant. > > My comment was that to say that the Dhammapada quote says that > Nibbana is anatta is not quite correct, because in Dhammapada 279, > when the Buddha says All Dhammas are anatta, he is only referring to > the 5 khandhas. My understanding of the passage is that the Buddha > said this passage with reference to discerning with wisdom the 5 > aggregates as anatta, which is the path to purity. > > To say that "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa" includes Nibbana we would have > to quote the same passage but from a different part of the Canon. > Commentary on "sabbe dhammaa anattaa" from Samyutta Khandhavagga> .... As Narada says: “The commentator interprets dhamma as the ‘aggregates’ (khandhaa). The same interpretation he gives to sa’nkhaara too. If by dhamma is meant sa’nkhaara, there is no reason for the Buddha to make a differentiation in the third verse.” Surely, there couldn’t be a mistake in the comy here??;-) Could it be a mistake in the Pali text? Perhaps Suan or someone can check another Pali text. I agree with your other reference including Nibbana. Look forward to any more of your tit-bits. Metta, Sarah p.s Larry, perhaps the Vism extracts can resume - maybe at a slower pace if that suits Nina. ===== 27572 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 0:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Christine & Ken H, Many thanks for your reports. KenH, did you write an introduction to the anapanasati sutta? If so, can we see it? How can there be any qu of nibbana not being the only unconditioned dhamma? --- christine_forsyth wrote: > We touched on what 'keeping the precepts' means - i.e. if one is > sitting in Dhamma discussions, not guzzling alcohol, commiting mayhem > or frolicking with wild, wild women (or men) - this doesn't mean one > is presently keeping at least three of the precepts. Keeping the > precepts is 'abstaining' from breaking them - and this can only > happen when the opportunity to break them is successfully resisted. .... ;-) .... > and what are the chances of > splinting a particular flys' middle left hand leg. The answer > is 'two - Buckleys and none'. :-) ..... I’ll have to wait til my Aussie interpreter fills me in. Perhaps it’s the Dutch or ‘double-dutch’ influence.... .... > There was a discussion on an article by Maurice Walshe (translator of > the Digha Nikaya) about Dana - "Giving from the Heart" about > intention and recipients (which also included a very interesting > remark about the Vesantara Jataka :-)). .... As it’s a :-)) one, you’d better share it, Chris. .... >There was definitely not > consensus on the Buddhist idea of some recipients being more worthy > than others to receive gifts, or the fact that more beneficial vipaka > would be generated by givng to one person rather than another. ..... We never know - so many conditions and factors involved. Better to just give when we have a chance and not think about the vipaka.....otherwise, so easily it can be clinging to self again. As I was discussing with Victor (Larry thanks for your help;-)), even whilst giving, there can be clinging to the generosity, to the gift, to ‘me’ or anything. Glad you all had a good weekend and I hope Azita can make it next time too. Metta, Sarah ===== 27573 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 1:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Sarah and all, Regarding the expression 'Buckley's chance' - there are lots of explanations as to who was the original Buckley - the explanation in this link is as good as any, and probably no more accurate than the others. Buckley's chance = no chance at all. http://www.thisisparramatta.com/pomsinoz/uselessfacts.html ======================================== Christine said: > There was a discussion on an article by Maurice Walshe (translator of > the Digha Nikaya) about Dana - "Giving from the Heart" about > intention and recipients (which also included a very interesting > remark about the Vesantara Jataka :-)). .... Sarah said: > As it's a :-)) one, you'd better share it, Chris. ----------------------------- Christine: O.K. - but only because you asked :-)) - and, seriously, because it is such a relief to me to read Walshe's remarks in this excerpt from "Giving from the Heart" "In point of fact, one of the true benefits to the giver is precisely that the act of spontaneous giving is a very fine way of helping to overcome attachment. And that is the intended point of the Vessantara story. We Westerners think of the unfortunate wife and family the Bodhisatta "sacrificed" (though of course there was happy ending and they came back to him, in the story!), but the intention is to regard them as objects of attachment, to be given up as such. As a matter of fact, despite the popularity of this particular story, modern scholars consider that it was not originally a Buddhist tale at all, and was somewhat unskillfully adapted to provide a "Buddhist" moral." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel367.html#heart ================================ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: 27574 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Sarah, -------------- S: > KenH, did you write an introduction to the anapanasati sutta? If so, can we see it? -------------- Sorry, no; I just abridged Nina's series on the sutta. Perhaps Christine and I have used the wrong term; by "introduction" we were referring to the first part of the sutta that describes when the meeting was held and who attended. -------------- S: > How can there be any qu of nibbana not being the only unconditioned dhamma? -------------- I have no idea, this must have been discussed at the other end of the table. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27575 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Hi Larry and All LBIDD@w... wrote: > Here is B. Bodhi's trans. of this commentary: > > SN, p. 1084, n. 180, Spk: All formations of the three planes (sabbe > tebhuumakaa sa.nkhaaraa) are impermanent; all phenomena of the four > planes (sabbe catubhuumakaa dhammaa) are nonself. To my understanding the below are the planes that are being referred to in the above commentary> Patisambhidamagga, Chapter XVIII Planes/Bhumi There are these four planes; sensual-desire sphere, the material sphere, the immaterial sphere, and the unincluded sphere. What is the sensual-desire sphere plane? Making the Avici hell the lower limit and making the paranimmitavasavatti deities the upper limit, the aggregates,principles,bases,materiality,feeling,perception, formations, and consciousness, that are in this interval, have their sphere here, are included here; these are the sensual-desire sphere plane. What is the material-sphere plane? Making the Brahma world the lower limit and the Akanittha(highest) deities the upper limit, the dhammas of cognizance and consciousness- concomitants in one who has attained(that plane by meditation) or who has been reborn(there) or who (as a arahant) is abiding (there) in comfort here and now, which(dhammas) have their sphere here, are included here; these are the material-sphere plane. What is the immaterial-sphere plane? Making the deities of the base consisting of boundless space the lower limit and the deities of the base consisting of neither perception nor nonperception the upper limit, the dhammas of cognizance and consciousness-concomitants in one who has attained or who has been reborn or who is abiding in comfort here and now, which (dhammas) have their sphere here, are included here; these are the immaterial-sphere plane. What is the unincluded plane? The unincluded paths and fruitions of the paths and the unformed principle: there are the unincluded plane. These are the four planes. -- Steve 27576 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:44am Subject: Re: Act of consciousness Hi Jon, I mentioned my 10 minute belly laugh at the realisation that there was no Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life precisely because it was not a Buddhist experience. I was not thinking in a Buddhist framework at the time. I do not think there are any Buddhist, or any other ...ist or ism experiences. Yes, I accept fully that if I wanted to explain whatever was happening in terms of a certain theory, I would need to adopt that certain theory. Do you think it is possible to experience "things" as they are, without reference to or in terms of other "things"? All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > I do not for a moment doubt your experience and what you have told us > about it. > > But it seems to me that the significance of one's experiences in > terms of the Buddha's teaching can only be determined by reference to > that teaching. > > So I would see a familiarity with the Buddha's word as essential > regardless of one's predisposition or level of attainment. > > Just my take. > > Thanks for sharing with us. > > Jon > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > > Dang, a near perfect weekend spoiled by concensus with Jon Abbott > > :-) > > > > I know it is not useful for others to hear of my personal > > experiences, but I need to throw some in to show why I would > > question your paragraph, thus: > > > > > But, and this may be our main difference, I believe the > > conditions > > > under which that understanding can arise are quite specific and > > need > > > to be understood intellectually in the first place if there is to > > be > > > any chance of them being fulfilled. > > > > One evening, about eight years ago, whilst reclining in a chair > > after a days work, out of the blue, a realisation that there was no > > Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life hit home. I sat in > > that chair belly-laughing for a full ten minutes. That realisation > > was the funniest thing. But ..... once real, always real. > > > > I would find it impossible, and also undesirable, to trace this > > insight back to other insights and create some causal chain out of > > it. > > > > I can honestly say that I was not a student of Buddhism at the > > time, > > and anything I would have read about anatta previously would have > > gone right over my head. > > > 27577 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Christine & Ken H, > > Many thanks for your reports. KenH, did you write an introduction to the > anapanasati sutta? If so, can we see it? How can there be any qu of > nibbana not being the only unconditioned dhamma? How can there be any acceptance of nibbana being the only unconditioned dhamma? I am not looking for an answer based on the say so of another person. What differentiates a conditioned dhamma from an unconditioned dhamma, experience wise? All the best Herman PS Do you remember Axel Rose from Guns'n Roses belting out "November Rain" in his little tight shorts? I wonder if he meant "October Rain" :-) 27578 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 5:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > How can there be any acceptance of nibbana being the only > unconditioned dhamma? > > I am not looking for an answer based on the say so of another person. ..... You mean you’d rather have my say so than the Buddha’s??;-) I assure you, that anything I might say of any use is what I have learnt from his teachings. I don’t think it’s difficult to appreciate, at least intellectually, that the realities or actualities of life at this moment are changing very rapidly and arising according to an intricate combination of factors. Take feelings, for example. They are changing all the time - pleasant, unpleasant, neutral, pleasant - and depending on what is seen, heard, thought about, the other factors co-arising, the preceding experiences and so on. It’s like this for all other experienced and experiencing actualities. ..... > What differentiates a conditioned dhamma from an unconditioned > dhamma, experience wise? ..... A conditioned dhamma clearly depends on causes to arise. Again, intellectually at least, I think we can appreciate that it is the characteristic of feelings, say, to arise accordingly and to fall away almost immediately. Whilst reading this email, the feeling now is different from a split instant ago and each time we look at a different visible object or consider what’s written there are different feelings again according to so many factors. Being conditioned is part of the ‘nature’ of realities. Obviously, therefore, the experience of the ‘unconditioned’ is quite different in every way to what we’re used to experiencing all day, every day. Good to see your challenging questions again, Herman. Always more to them than meets the eyes;-) I'll be glad to hear your further comments. Metta, Sarah > PS Do you remember Axel Rose from Guns'n Roses belting out "November > Rain" in his little tight shorts? I wonder if he meant "October > Rain" :-) .... No, but I’ve already shown enough memory loss on Buckley for today. Oh well, October, November, December, Axel Rose or April Rain - all concepts (Myanmar was October for anyone who may have forgotten;-)) ======================================================== 27579 From: Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 1:48am Subject: Experiencing Things As They Are (Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness) Hi, Herman - In a message dated 12/2/03 6:49:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi Jon, > > I mentioned my 10 minute belly laugh at the realisation that there > was no Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life precisely > because it was not a Buddhist experience. I was not thinking in a > Buddhist framework at the time. > > I do not think there are any Buddhist, or any other ...ist or ism > experiences. > > Yes, I accept fully that if I wanted to explain whatever was > happening in terms of a certain theory, I would need to adopt that > certain theory. > > Do you think it is possible to experience "things" as they are, > without reference to or in terms of other "things"? > > All the best > > > Herman > ========================== With regard to your question to Jon: "Do you think it is possible to experience 'things' as they are, without reference to or in terms of other 'things'?," I would reply that yes, at least that is what Buddhism says! ;-)) More seriously, I do think that phenomena occur due to specific conditions, not "any old" conditions. That being the case, while I don't think that knowing in advance the way things are supposed to be is determinative in seeing how they actually are, and in fact, having specific expectations, unless great care is taken, *might* even falsely influence how things seem to one, I do think that there are specific conditions that need to be established in order for one to come to see things as they actually are, and I have considerable confidence that the Buddha's program of training does lead to those conditions. Part of that training does consist in "right view". While I don't think that merely memorizing what is said to be "right view" is what the path is about, there is the question of what to *look for* in directing the mind. Quite often, we can look with attentive choiceless awareness, and yet miss some important things. As a particular example, without having in mind to be aware of, to *note*, the impermanence of phenomena, though we may see it, yet it may not "register" as such. This is particularly so because the mind has long been in the mold to see permanence where there is impermanence! We tend not to notice change, at least far from adequately. I have found that there is a radical difference in seeing impermanence when I'm "looking" to see it from when I'm not. (And I mean actually seeing cessation and change rather than mentally imposing it.) I was experimenting with this yesterday. I was sitting in the Student Union cafeteria, looking around not at particular things, but at the general flux, the "change of scene," and I found myself *amazed* at the show unfolding, the constant and wide-ranging change. It was fascinating, reminding me of watching a film. I didn't hold onto specific details of "things," but just the characteristic of anicca, of not remaining, and the experience was not the usual one. So I think that keeping in mind what is supposed to be the case, and maintaining readiness to see it, maintaining a directed vigilence, often helps one in genuinely seeing it. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27580 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken H > > Can the habitual cultivation of a quiet, non-monkey, > mind lead to satipatthana? No (with similar proviso plus > the knowledge of Dhamma). k: I think there we should not totally disregard some form of meditation training. Calm is a factor of wisdom and without calm there is no cultivation of 2nd jhanas as indicated in many Suttas. Unless the calm used in the instance used by these suttas meant a different thing in the commentaries. Any good info will be most welcome by any member :). > If we choose to learn the art of jhanna absorption, > shouldn't we start by concentrating on an object? No, we > should start by keeping the precepts, practising > moderation (of eating and sleeping), and otherwise > suppressing the five hindrances. k: The five hindrances can never be suppressed bc they are also conditions, they can only be discerned. They are eradicated through the various jhanas level if I have not forgotten. I will not suggest purposely in moderation in eating and sleeping bc it can be counter productive at times (just my hunch). Any moderation in eating and sleeping is recommended by Buddha only after Sense control is well estabished as in Ganakamoggallana Sutta. kind regards Ken O 27581 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:12am Subject: annapanasati 4b Anapanasati 4 b: When the yogavacara, the practitioner, concentrates on the meditation subject, in this case, breath, he needs right understanding and also samadhi that concentrates again and again and again, so that it can become access concentration and attainment concentration when he attains jhana. When he can have jhanacitta for many moments, there are no cittas of the sense sphere and no bhavangacittas in between. His concentration on the meditation subject is stable. The word evenly applies to jhana, when there is no disturbance by sense impressions. When he emerges from jhana and he can develop insight, there is momentray concentration with the citta that realizes the happiness of jhana as a dhamma arising and falling away. The Visuddhinmagga speaks about . The Vis. I, note 3 explains that no insight comes about without momentary concentration. As regards the clause: ³(XII) I shall breathe in... breathe out liberating the (manner of) consciousness², the Visuddhimagga explains that this also must be understood as pertaining to jhåna as well as to insight. In the first jhåna one is liberated from the ³hindrances², although they are not eradicated, and in each subsequent stage of jhåna one is liberated from the jhåna-factors, specific cetasikas which are developed in order to eliminate the hindrances. The jhåna-factors are subsequently abandoned when one is no longer dependent on them and one is able to attain a higher and more subtle stage of jhåna. After emerging from jhåna the jhånacitta is comprehended with insight. We read (Visuddhimagga VIII, 233): Œ... at the actual time of insight he delivers, liberates the mind from the perception of permanence by means of the contemplation of impermanence, from the perception of pleasure by means of the contemplation of dukkha (suffering), from the perception of self by means of the contemplation of not self, from delight by means of the contemplation of dispassion, from greed by means of the contemplation of fading away, from arousing by means of the contemplation of cessation, from grasping by means of the contemplation of relinquishment...² ****** Nina 27582 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Dear Ken H, splendid. I really enjoyed your post and so useful. See below. op 02-12-2003 04:03 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > Can an ordinary, non-jhana, mindfulness of breathing > be used in a similar, if less effective, manner? No, > unless you can be sure your consciousness is kusala. N: The most important point for the development of samatha. Panna is needed above all which knows the difference between akusala and kusala. Especially when akusala is subtle it is hard to recognize! Subtle lobha plays us trciks all the time. K: Can the habitual cultivation of a quiet, non-monkey, > mind lead to satipatthana? No (with similar proviso plus > the knowledge of Dhamma). N: If you strive after calm first you will not know akusala, and that has to be known for sure. K: If we choose to learn the art of jhana absorption, > shouldn't we start by concentrating on an object? No, we > should start by keeping the precepts, practising > moderation (of eating and sleeping), and otherwise > suppressing the five hindrances. N: You have to live like a monk! No entertainment and so on. Completely devoted to the meditation subject day and night. K: If (IF), it is true that anapanasati is not for just > anyone, are there other forms of samatha meditation that > we can engage in? This prompted the production of a dsg > post, 25818, by RobertK, which reads in part: N: Quite agreed, these meditations are very beneficial and can be for every occasion. And they can bring us back to the present moment, most important. We recollect the Buddha, and why? Because he taught satipatthana. The most precious thing. We should be most grateful, and we can show this by practising now, at this very moment. K: I would like to know how this fits in, > if at all, with formal meditation. Also, I suspect that > the above way of 'spending our days' should not be > understood as; "Later, I will learn Dhamma, now, I will > attend to ordinary business," or even; "Now, I will learn > Dhamma, later, I will attend to ordinary business." I > think, rather, that the admonition describes > conditionality and is to be understood here and now in > its entirety . (If you know what I mean.) N: Yes, you do not have to wait until you do this or that, that is a delay again. Why not right now? I had to laugh about the flies. Also about the cat that was with Klaas. Thank you very much. I really enjoyed reading such an inspiring post. Nina. 27583 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] sabbe dhammaa anattaa Hi Larry and Steve, op 02-12-2003 03:27 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Steve: "To say that "Sabbe dhammaa anattaa" includes Nibbana we would > have to quote the same passage but from a different part of the Canon. > Commentary on "sabbe dhammaa anattaa" from Samyutta Khandhavagga> > > Sabbe dhammaa anattaati sabbe catubhuumakadhammaa anattaa. All dhammas > are anatta = all dhammas of the 4 planes are anatta. > > Which would include Nibbana." > > Larry: I looked-up "plane" in CMA and found that there are 4 planes of > consciousness and 4 planes of existence. The 4 planes of consciousness > are: sense sphere, fine-material sphere, immaterial sphere, and > supramundane. The 4 planes of existence are: woeful plane, sensuous > blissful plane, fine-material sphere plane, and immaterial sphere plane. > I believe? all 4 consciousnesses can arise in all 4 planes. Technically > speaking nibbana doesn't have a plane to itself but I suppose we could > include it as an object of consciousness in any plane (either planes of > consciousness or planes of existence). N: We should seperate plane of existence and plane of consciousness. I was puzzled too about nibbana being a plane of citta. This is impossible. It is lokuttara dhamma. There are nine: the eight lokuttara cittas and nibbana. Now I translate more of the Co Steve gave: Here is the complete commentary to Dhammapada279> N: This is also about the five khandhas, be cause of the words: do not decay, do not die. But, nobody can control nibbana, has no power over it, thus, nibbana is also anatta. It is beyond doubt. > Larry: Channa goes on to say he also thinks in this way but the thought > "But who is my self" keeps occuring. Ananda then recites the > Kaccaanagota Sutta (SN 12 15) which is concerned with the middle way > between existence and nonexistence by way of the stream of the rise and > fall that is impermanence (my characterization). In this sutta there is > the line "he does not take a stand on 'my self'". N: When he sees the dependent origination he will not believe in I exist or I do not exist. This is the Middle Way. In K IV (see the first sutta) the Buddha also begins with: what is impermanent, can that be a self. Or, what is dukkha can that be a self? Nina. 27584 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Dear KenH, and Sarah, :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Thanks for that report Christine, you have an excellent > memory for detail -- I had forgotten a lot of it. @@@@@@@ sarcasm, KenH?? surely not :-)@@@@@@@ >>>>>>> gigantic snip<<<<<<<< > PS: I won't comment on the subject heading @@@@@@@ when is 'not commenting', a comment?@@@@@@@ and --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > No, but I've already shown enough memory loss on Buckley for today. Oh > well, October, November, December, Axel Rose or April Rain - all concepts > (Myanmar was October for anyone who may have forgotten;-)) =========================== :-) yes, "anyone" is aware we are in December, and that the Cooran trip was the last weekend in November - but once one has pressed the "send" button, there is no expunging of an incorrect word or action - a bit like kamma really :-) .... (One can only hope that ones gallant list-mates will observe noble silence) [ a forlorn hope with this mob] An interesting (?) point ... there was a discussion in the car going up to Cooran and another, one evening, about incipient Alzheimers ... I was the enthusiastic proponent of Folate as a preventative. Oh well, must go ... off to take a triple dose ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27585 From: Carl Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 2:30pm Subject: Re: Phonetic Glossary --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "htootintnaing" wrote: > Hi C7carl, > > Atta = At Ta ( Not At Hta or At Tha ) > > Anatta = Anat Ta > > Anicca = Aneik Sa ( Anake Sa, not Hsa or Sha ) > C must be pronounced as a soft ' C ' as ' Sa ' > >............Snip......................... > > With Unlimited Metta > > Htoo Naing > Thank you Htoo Naing! And thank you Christine-forsyth and Herman for you suggestions and links to the Pali site. The download with a real voice pronouncing many Pali words is great! ..c7carl 27586 From: Carl Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 2:59pm Subject: Re: New Member RobertK, please excuse my previous post (now deleted ,I think). I was being very shallow and ignorant. Thank you very much for your response to me. It was certainly more than I deserved. The only excuse I can offer for my rude response to you is that I was overwhelmed (by my own ignorance). I have read your post (below) several times now, and I truely appreciate that you were so kind to me. I hope I have not put myself on your bad side. I'll try to behave in the future :) . ........Carl..(the wooden headed puppet) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > "rjkjp1" > > wrote: > > > Nice to have you here Carl, > ______________ > > Thanks for putting up your photo Carl. When the texts say that person > or being are only conventionally true it means that they have no > reality at all, they are only useful as terms to represent the five > khnadhas > "as with the assembly of parts the word chariot is countenanced, > So, when the aggregates are present, A being: is said in common > usage."(samyutta I, 135) > These, Citta, are merely names, expressions, turns of speech, > designations in common use in the world. And of these a Tathagata > makes > use indeed, but he does not misapprehend them" Digha 9. > > The suttas often use such words as I and my and man, woman, and we > can too, but we need > to know that they are mere concepts. > "Such forms as woman or man are local forms of speech. ..In those who > have not fully understood what a physical base is there comes to be > the misinterpretation "this is really a woman.."But since this is > mere concept, which depends on states made to occur in such ans such > a wise , one who sees and knows the dependent origination does not > interpret it as ultimate meaning"Note 4 visud. vii (pm) > > ---------------------- > > > i.e. *I* can feel *hardness*. Without *I*, what is to feel? > > Hardness is a paramattha dhamma. *I* is a conventional reality. > > It takes two to tango (so to speak). (No *I*) + (No *Hardness*) = > > (No dance). > _______ > I appreciate your questions Carl and so I give a detailed answer. In > the Samyuttanikaya Nidana Moliyaphagguna p541 bodhi) > "'With the six bases (salayatana)as condition contact comes to be'. > Ven. Moliyaphagguna: 'Venerable sir, who makes contact?' > Buddha: 'I do not say 'One makes contact'. If I should say 'One makes > contact' in that case this would be a valid question.....In this case > the > valid answer is 'With the six sense bases as condition, contact [comes > to > be]; with contact as condition feeling'. > Moliyaphagguna: 'venerable sir, who feels?.." endquote > > And so the sutta carries on with venerable Moliyaphagguna searching > for a self in the Paticcasamuppada. He feels that there should be > 'someone' who craves, 'someone' who clings, who feels, who ages, who > has > sorrow, who dies. The Buddha says (SN 12:35 Bodhi p.575) that with the > eradication of ignorance such ideas and vacillations as "what now are > volitional formations (sankhara) , and for 'whom' are there volitional > formations? or'Volitional formations are one thing, the one for whom > there > are these volitional formations is another'--all these are abandoned, > cut > off at the root...."endquote. > > Thus there is no I who experiences hardness but rather because of > conditions coming together there is the experience of hardness. > > > This `being' is simply a puppet with manifold parts – all coming > together in different combinations – lasting for an instant and then > falling away again. > > Because the conditions that make up each moment are often > similar "we" look and feel somewhat the same from moment to moment – > and this is one aspect of how continuity deludes. > > ""Therefore, just as a marionette is void, soulless and without > curisosity, and while it works and stands merely through the > combination of strings and wood yet it seems as if it had curiosity > and interestedness, so too this materiality (rupa)- mentality (nama) > is void, soulless and without curiosity, and while it walks and > stands merely through the combination of the two together, yet it > seems as if it had curiosity and interestedness." Visuddhimagga > xviii31 > The conditions that make up what we think of as a human being are of > course more complex than a marionette, and hence more difficult to > fathom. The first steps, of this very long untanglement, are about > identifying, with right wisdom, the various characteristics of the > different phenomena that comprise this `being' this manisfestion of > paticcasamuppada. > > Usually we think "I'm interested or bored or excited or calm, or sad > or happy or wise or confused or making effort or being negligent. > But there are only different elements performing different > functions - and they have no agenda: > > "[The] uninterestedness becomes evident to him though seeing rise and > fall according to condition owing to his discovery of the inability > of states to have mastery exercised over them. Then he more > thoroughly abandons the self view"visuddhimagga xx102 > > The characteristic of not-self becomes evident to him through seeing > rise according to conditions owing to his discovery that states have > no curiosity and have their existence depending upon conditions" xx102 > > "All the formed bases(eye base, ear base, tongue base etc) should be > regarded as having no provenance and no destination. On the contrary, > before their rise they had no individual essence and after their fall > their individual essences are completely dissolved. And they occur > without mastery being exercisable over them since they exist in > dependence on conditions and in between the past and the future. "XV15 > > This is deep Dhamma that can only be heard during the time of a > Buddhasasana. > RobertK 27587 From: Andrew Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 3:55pm Subject: The Doomed March Fly Dear DSG-ers As usual, Christine and KenH have done a good job describing the most recent Cooran weekend. I wish to add some of my thoughts, taking Sarah's advice to KenH to throw caution to the wind and just send the post regardless of any qualms. It (or refutation of it) may assist understanding. First some background. In my rushed skimming of DSG recently, I read a post of Jon's which I interpreted as saying that, for worldlings, Dhamma study is background reading (rather than direct knowing of dhammas). I agree. Christine has described how, at Cooran, we were beset by march flies - big, slow-flying, slow-to-bite but painful insects many of whom gravitated towards the erudite KenH. His response was to catch them in his hand and place them in a jar for later release. However, one fly was unintentionally injured in some way and did not seem to be able to fly. People wondered what to do. When my attention was drawn to the situation, I had no doubt about what to do. The fly was doomed to be eaten by ants. I was prepared to squash it underfoot. I am not a lover/hater of march flies. I can't honestly say I felt sad/happy. I just thought it was the best thing to do and I was prepared to do it and take the consequences. Christine (a kinder person one could not meet) questioned my solution, referring to a recent DSG discussion on euthanasia (which, I'm sorry, I haven't read). In the end, I did nothing. The fly soon died and was placed in the garden. This no reflection on anyone, I hasten to add, but I felt at the time that we were all mere worldlings discussing the Teachings. We do not comprehend kamma well. It was time to put the Teachings aside and just act. Naturally, later I reviewed the Simile of the Raft and in particular the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN38 paras 9-14, Bodhi edition page 352) in which the Buddha says "the Dhamma has been taught as similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping". Bodhi's note 406 reads "This is said to show the bhikkhus that they should not cling even to the right view of insight meditation". Henry van Zeyst writes "in right thinking all contradictions will cease and there will be immediate action" ie. without the mind deliberating over "choices". MY POINT - I think we all have to remember that, at times, we do what needs to be done. We have to stop intellectualising and just act. Accept the consequences, be they pleasant or unpleasant. Even if it means putting (our worldling view of) the Teachings aside. Did I lack sufficient saddha to stop me from breaking the precept against killing? With metta Andrew 27588 From: Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Thanks Steve & Nina for the info on the 4 planes. Larry 27589 From: Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Pure Mind/Buddha Nature/Anatta Hi Sarah, I thought I would wait until Nina catches up before going on with the Visuddhimagga thread. Larry --------------------- S: "p.s Larry, perhaps the Vism extracts can resume - maybe at a slower pace if that suits Nina." 27590 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 6:06pm Subject: Anapanasati Sutta Hi All This section at the beginning of the Anapanasati sutta was briefly discussed at cooran on the weekend> "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. **The sort of assembly that is worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly.** A section of this passage also occurs in the Mahanama sutta, in which it is describing Noble disciples> "Furthermore, there is the case where you recollect the Sangha: 'The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully -- in other words, the four types [of noble disciples] when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types -- **they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world.'** Would it be right that all the monks at the anapanasati sutta assembly were at least sotapannas? Steve 27591 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:03pm Subject: Re: New Member Dear Carl, Thanks for your very kind letter. I understand about your first reaction on reading my response. You were rightly expecting a standard reply but I went on at length. It is just the way things work: on another day I might have given an appropriately pithy reply but at that time I felt like adding a lot (without properly considering what was useful for you). Looking forward to your long presence on the group. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Carl" wrote: > RobertK, please 27592 From: rjkjp1 Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:13pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Dear Andrew, Some types of cittas are "unprompted" (asankharika) and some types are "prompted". They can be prompted by internal thoughts etc. or because of the urgings of others. The sotapanna has no more inclination to kill and so probably the abstaining from killing is asankharika - it doesnt need to be prompted and arises instantly. The one who is not sotapanna still has tendencies towards killing so sometimes the abstaining from killing has to be prompted. I think it is good Christine and Ken were around to give such prompting. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Christine has described how, at Cooran, we were > beset by march flies - big, slow-flying, slow-to-bite but painful > insects many of whom gravitated towards the erudite KenH. His > response was to catch them in his hand and place them in a jar for > later release. However, one fly was unintentionally injured in some > way and did not seem to be able to fly. People wondered what to do. > When my attention was drawn to the situation, I had no doubt about > what to do. The fly was doomed to be eaten by ants. I was prepared > to squash it underfoot. I am not a lover/hater of march flies. I > can't honestly say I felt sad/happy. I just thought it was the best > thing to do and I was prepared to do it and take the consequences. > Christine (a kinder person one could not meet) questioned my > solution, referring to a recent DSG discussion on euthanasia (which, > I'm sorry, I haven't read). In the end, I did nothing. The fly soon > died and was placed in the garden. > 27593 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi RobertK, ------------ R: > Am booked to stop for a few days in early August in Brisbane, hope Cooran is a rental car drive from there? ------------ Marvellous! We will definitely arrange a meeting -- either in Cooran or in Brisbane or maybe on the coast. (If you won't mention the World Cup, neither will we.) About the four meditations: ------------- R: > I think no rules (to repeat what Acharn Sujin always says) about these matters. Check to see whether we are really investigating conditionality, or are our actions rooted in subtle wrong view -------------- I suppose, if there were rules, there would be no teaching of conditionality; and where would we be then? Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear KenH, Christine, Andrew , Steve and all, > > You have a great group in Queensland. Almost sacreligious for a Kiwi > to say, 27594 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:20pm Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken O, ------------ KO: > I think there we should not totally disregard some form of meditation training. ---------- I hope people can forgive me for being too opinionated on this subject. (At the Cooran weekend, I may have been a bit of a pain.) The popular, modern-day, version of meditation is not mentioned in the Tipitaka. Even so, I have to remember there are no rules; we are entitled to sit quietly or we can dance to Guns 'n Roses. I like to think that a correct understanding of meditation (on the Buddha, metta, death and loathsomeness), can condition calm, kusala consciousness when one of those objects comes to mind. Whether or not formal practices can play a part in this process is another matter. ----------- KO: > Calm is a factor of wisdom and without calm there is no cultivation of 2nd jhanas as indicated in many Suttas. Unless the calm used in the instance used by these suttas meant a different thing in the commentaries. Any good info will be most welcome by any member :). ---------- Calm arises with all kusala moments, I think. It certainly arises with wisdom but, even so, wisdom (right understanding), comes first. In janna, right understanding means directly knowing kusala from akusala. In satipatthana, right understanding means directly knowing the characteristics of nama and rupa. Ken, I don't know if you have missed certain discussions on dsg; are you aware that jhana cultivation is not necessary for the development of vipassana? ----------- KO: > The five hindrances can never be suppressed bc they are also conditions, they can only be discerned. ----------- When descriptions of jhana mention "having overcome the hindrances," they are referring to a temporary overcoming. In the fine immaterial sphere, "temporary" can mean countless aeons but the defilements lie latent and, therefore, a return to the lower realms is inevitable. ------------- KO: > They are eradicated through the various jhanas level if I have not forgotten. ------------- Not eradicated, suppressed. It is only the four stages of Path Consciousness that eradicate defilements. ------------- KO: > I will not suggest purposely in moderation in eating and sleeping bc it can be counter productive at times (just my hunch). Any moderation in eating and sleeping is recommended by Buddha only after Sense control is well estabished as in Ganakamoggallana Sutta. ------------- I bow to your superior knowledge in these matters. When I mentioned moderation, I was simply thinking it was among the accumulated tendencies that are required before we can practise jhana concentration. Kind regards, Ken H 27595 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 7:24pm Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Dear Nina, Thank you for saying you enjoyed my Cooran post -- I was worried it might have been a bit over the top. I'm glad you weren't shocked by my treatment of the flies. They are big and their bite has to be felt to be believed -- and, as Billy Connerly remarked on his latest tour of Australia, "it's not even ### March!" :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] FW: Co Mahaaraahulovaadasutta 26 B Dear Sarah, Yes, very good reminder. And we can find the guidance all around, if we are openminded enough. Scriptures, commentaries, and above all: good friends in the Dhamma. And then: considering, considering, not obstructing awareness by desire for result. Not forgetting kusala through action, speech and mind. This can keep us busy for the rest of our life. Nina. op 02-12-2003 08:40 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > And if Rahula was one who needed detailed guidance (neyyapuggala) after > detailed explanations, who are we to think we don't need a lot, lot more > detailed guidance? 27597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 9:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] eyesense. Hi Larry, yes. I concentrate on the eye, smaller than a louse's head, doing its functions. It is a great text!! Really impressive. And just enjoying the Tiika now, but slowly. More about the eyedecad, you will like it. How all these rupas support eyesense and coordinate, and how all other groups of rupa produced by citta, heat and nutrition also support the group produced by kamma. And how the great elements tend to eyesense as if it were a royal prince, by upholding, cohering, maturing (heat!) and movement (wind). In Pali: long compounds and many words I had to look up. Can I make anybody happy in jotting them down, there are a great deal of them? Nina. op 02-12-2003 09:07 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > p.s Larry, perhaps the Vism extracts can resume - maybe at a slower pace > if that suits Nina. 27598 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Sarah, Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. You're right, of course, it would be better to hear about Nibbana from those who have been there, done that. And thank you for saying that all you know about it is from the Buddha's say so. A little story aside. When we first emigrated to Australia I was about 13. After three months here we made a cassette recording to send back to the relatives in Holland. Of course all of us kids were showing off with the little English we had learned in that time. I distinctly remember exclaiming on tape "Those kangaroos sure can jump". The truth was that I hadn't seen one yet, but just being in Australia, as opposed to the land of the long yellow cheese (Holland) was enough justification for me to make this little claim. Clearly I had formed (and expressed) a view where there was no foundation for that view. Likewise, when Captain Cook returned to England after "discovering" Australia, he had marvelous accounts of the strangest flora and fauna, mammals with duck-bills, animals that jumped around on their hind legs only, with their young in a pouch etc etc. His audience formed various views (with no other foundation than faith or lack of it), from believing it to be a hoax, to apathy, to busting one's gut to get out there to see it for oneself. We here are students of the Buddha, or hopefully, students of his "discoveries". Armed with our compasses and his maps we are looking for the end of suffering. (This is turning out to be a lot longer than I had hoped. Forbearance please :-)) Back to your original question: Is there any question of nibbana being the only unconditioned dhamma? Well, frankly my dear, yes :-) Until I see that kangaroo jump, that is ! It won't be enough for you to assure me there are kangaroos :-) Unconditioned, does that mean it is always there, or does never arising, never ceasing mean time and space don't apply. Is it experienced, or is it like the ti-lakkhana, matters of insight only, or is it neither here nor there? Is nibbana the same as the vimokkha? Why put a limit on the number of unconditioned dhammas? And so on, and so on. Just for starters :-) I know the calm mind is joyful, so I can wish you that without getting ahead of myself. Thanks. Herman PS I posted a photo of Vick and myself in the second folder in the photos section. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Herman, > > --- Egberdina wrote: > > > How can there be any acceptance of nibbana being the only > > unconditioned dhamma? > > > > I am not looking for an answer based on the say so of another person. > ..... > You mean you'd rather have my say so than the Buddha's??;-) I assure you, > that anything I might say of any use is what I have learnt from his > teachings. > > I don't think it's difficult to appreciate, at least intellectually, that > the realities or actualities of life at this moment are changing very > rapidly and arising according to an intricate combination of factors. Take > feelings, for example. They are changing all the time - pleasant, > unpleasant, neutral, pleasant - and depending on what is seen, heard, > thought about, the other factors co-arising, the preceding experiences and > so on. It's like this for all other experienced and experiencing > actualities. > ..... > > What differentiates a conditioned dhamma from an unconditioned > > dhamma, experience wise? > ..... > A conditioned dhamma clearly depends on causes to arise. Again, > intellectually at least, I think we can appreciate that it is the > characteristic of feelings, say, to arise accordingly and to fall away > almost immediately. Whilst reading this email, the feeling now is > different from a split instant ago and each time we look at a different > visible object or consider what's written there are different feelings > again according to so many factors. Being conditioned is part of the > `nature' of realities. > > Obviously, therefore, the experience of the `unconditioned' is quite > different in every way to what we're used to experiencing all day, every > day. > > Good to see your challenging questions again, Herman. Always more to them > than meets the eyes;-) I'll be glad to hear your further comments. > > Metta, > > Sarah > 27599 From: nordwest Date: Tue Dec 2, 2003 10:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly Maybe the fly will reach a higher realm, because now so many buddhists reflect upon her... or maybe she had reached perfect enlightenment when been eaten alive by the ants, like the monk who was eaten by the tiger in the jungle.... the ways of karma are unconceiveable. I would rather hope, she profited from it. Thomas Andrew In the end, I did nothing. The fly soon died and was placed in the garden. This no reflection on anyone, I hasten to add, but I felt at the time that we were all mere worldlings discussing the Teachings. We do not comprehend kamma well. It was time to put the Teachings aside and just act. Naturally, later I reviewed the Simile of the Raft and in particular the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN38 paras 9-14, Bodhi edition page 352) in which the Buddha says "the Dhamma has been taught as similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping". Bodhi's note 406 reads "This is said to show the bhikkhus that they should not cling even to the right view of insight meditation". Henry van Zeyst writes "in right thinking all contradictions will cease and there will be immediate action" ie. without the mind deliberating over "choices". MY POINT - I think we all have to remember that, at times, we do what needs to be done. We have to stop intellectualising and just act. Accept the consequences, be they pleasant or unpleasant. Even if it means putting (our worldling view of) the Teachings aside. Did I lack sufficient saddha to stop me from breaking the precept against killing? With metta Andrew 27600 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 0:35am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello Andrew, Robert, Thomas and All, Thank you for your post, Andrew, and the honest reflections and questions on the March Fly incident. This touches on something that I never properly got sorted out in my mind last time it was discussed - i.e. the relative value of different life forms - is a 'fly being' as valuable as a 'human being', in Buddhism? Does the Precept against actual killing apply to both equally? I think last time it was discussed many people said that 'Size matters'. i.e. it is more unwholesome to kill an elephant than a mouse. Something to do with the anger it takes to consider the act, and the energy it takes to accomplish the task ... Considering the reality of rebirth, is it just our 'westernised' thinking that considers the urgent caring for an injured baby human a necessity, while the caring at all for an injured fly raises a quizzical eyebrow? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" 27601 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] October thoughts from Cooran Hi Herman, It’s the luminous hat that has prompted me to drop all my other urgent chores and quickly reply. --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > Thanks for your reply. I appreciate it. You're right, of course, it > would be better to hear about Nibbana from those who have been > there, done that. And thank you for saying that all you know about > it is from the Buddha's say so. .... ;-) That’s exactly why we look at the texts as I see it. I enjoyed the kangaroo story. Perhaps the point is that if we’ve seen enough pictures and heard enough accounts from reputable sources (!) about kangaroos hopping, there will be fewer and fewer doubts to arise on this score. Of course it’s only confirmed when we actually see them, but the accounts, then the pictures, then the TV shots, then the zoo specimens all take us closer and closer to the ‘real’ thing. In the same way, we read and hear second-hand accounts, then read some texts about conditioned realities. A little understanding develops which begins to test out the edges and as it develops there are fewer conditions to question what the Buddha has taught. Only the sotapanna’s wisdom which has experienced THE unconditioned reality directly has no more doubts at all about what has been taught. Does this mean that everything the Buddha taught and knew has been directly tested out? Of course not. Even the key disciples did not have the Buddha’s omniscient wisdom. All I can say is that the more understanding develops, even around the shallowest edges, the fewer doubts and questions there are about what has been taught. Meanwhile, it’s very natural to raise these questions and be sceptical about what we hear from Born Again Buddhists on DSG;-) ..... <....> H: > Unconditioned, does that mean it is always there, or does never > arising, never ceasing mean time and space don't apply. Is it > experienced, or is it like the ti-lakkhana, matters of insight only, > or is it neither here nor there? Is nibbana the same as the > vimokkha? Why put a limit on the number of unconditioned dhammas? ..... Whoa there.... Nibbana is experienced by lokuttara wisdom, it doesn’t depend on any factors. Nibbana and vimokkha (liberation) are NOT synonyms as I understand. Vimokkha usually refers to the approaches or way to liberation of panna, i.e by the aspect of taking anicca, dukkha or anatta as object. (only one characteristic at a time). This is a post topic on its own (Not a simple one). We can find sutta and commentary references if you’re interested to discuss further. There are also the 8 liberations in other suttas. I don’t know much about it. Perhaps you can share more about your interest and understanding. Why put a limit? For me, what I have learnt and tested so far makes good sense, so I have no reason to doubt the Buddha and his followers when they say that nibbana is THE unconditioned reality, just as you had no reason to doubt the pictures about the jumping kangaroos even though you hadn’t seen them. In fact, you had enough trust in what you were shown and told to tell others about them. We read about the absence of any states belonging to sankhara and how nibbana is the antithesis of all that is conditioned, so I don’t understand how there could be other unconditioned dhammas. If you have any examples in mind, let’s hear. I’m resisting from adding Udana quotes here. .... H: > Just for starters :-) > > I know the calm mind is joyful, so I can wish you that without > getting ahead of myself. .... There you go - enough confidence to know about the value for all :-) Metta, Sarah > PS I posted a photo of Vick and myself in the second folder in the > photos section. ..... It’s a very nice pic too;-) Many thanks, Herman. Please thank Vick also and mention that her fine luminous hat is especially appropriate for DSG discussions. I hope James and Ken O have taken note;-) Your hat’s nice too, Herman, it’s just that it doesn’t have quite this ‘pure’ quality. [Ken O, glow-worms in ancient India??] =========== 27602 From: robmoult Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:25am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Thank you for your post, Andrew, and the honest reflections and > questions on the March Fly incident. > This touches on something that I never properly got sorted out in my > mind last time it was discussed - i.e. the relative value of > different life forms - is a 'fly being' as valuable as a 'human > being', in Buddhism? Does the Precept against actual killing apply > to both equally? I think last time it was discussed many people > said that 'Size matters'. i.e. it is more unwholesome to kill an > elephant than a mouse. Something to do with the anger it takes to > consider the act, and the energy it takes to accomplish the task ... > > Considering the reality of rebirth, is it just our 'westernised' > thinking that considers the urgent caring for an injured baby human > a necessity, while the caring at all for an injured fly raises a > quizzical eyebrow? Yes, the Atthasalini does say that "size matters". Modern society tends to focus on the external (size, etc.) whereas the law of kamma depends on the internal mental states. It is the number and the intensity of the akusala javana cittas that impact kamma. If I have two animals, one is 10% bigger than the other, and I kill both of them; the smaller one I kill cruelly with much effort while the larger one I kill quickly without thinking about it, then the killing of the smaller animal will have much more grave kammic consequences than the killing of the larger animal. In other words, "killing a larger animal is more serious than killing a smaller animal" is a general statement. In general, all other things being equal, it would take more effort and consume more time (i.e. more intense akusala javana cittas and a large quantity of akuala javana cittas) to kill a larger animal. I don't see this as a fixed rule, but more as a general principal. The same "internal" principle works for kusala as well. You raised the question of compassion for a baby vs. compassion for a fly. When karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' suffering and wants to remove that suffering (it does not specify human being, so animals are included). Given human nature, it seems natural that seeing a suffering baby would condition more moments of karuna than seeing a suffering fly. More moments of compassion means more good kamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 27603 From: nordwest Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:24am Subject: The Holy Relics of Lord Buddha Dear sangha, The Lord Buddha's Holy Relics - a collection the most holy objects of Buddhism NOTICE: Pictures of lord Buddha's corporal relics are displayed out of True reverence to the Master and should not be misconstrued as any thing other, by non Buddhists viewing this page. IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE THIS INFORMATION, PLEASE KEEP YOUR OPINION TO YOURSELF. DO NOT START DISCUSSING OR SLANDERING ABOUT THE HOLY RELICTS OF THE LORD BUDDHA. Thank you for your understanding and respect. You find the pictures and informations at http://www.shakumasu.com/ If you have visited the site before, you may have to "refresh" the page to see the link to "The Lord Buddha's Relics" Gassho, Thomas 27604 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:31am Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken H I think I should clarify that the jhanas I talking about there is the jhanas of the stream entrant to Arahant > Even so, I have to remember there are no rules; we are entitled to > sit quietly or we can dance to Guns 'n Roses. Definitely we have to seek quietly this has been reference in many sutta even in Sati suttas where one go the a seluded place ..... > I like to think that a correct understanding of > meditation (on the Buddha, metta, death and > loathsomeness), can condition calm, kusala consciousness > when one of those objects comes to mind. Whether or not > formal practices can play a part in this process is > another matter. k: We cannot on our part totally disregard mediation bc we do know the impact of meditation on calmness. I have not read any commentary and I believe no commentaries will totally disregard meditation neither did any of the Abdhidhamma texts. In fact in Abdhidhamma text there are references to kasina. Why is there references to kasina if it is not impt? If it is not impt why should Buddha expound it in the first place. On the other hand,we should also realise that meditation could be so conditioned that it has become akusala as we are attached to the calmness effect. These are the dangers of practising we have to address when we practise. > Calm arises with all kusala moments, I think. It > certainly arises with wisdom but, even so, wisdom (right > understanding), comes first. In janna, right > understanding means directly knowing kusala from akusala. > In satipatthana, right understanding means directly > knowing the characteristics of nama and rupa. k: When I say that five hindrances cannot be suppressed bc what is anatta in the first place can never be suppressed. And also bc they are also condition it can only be discern and eventually eradicated. Suppressiong will mean a *self* compelling to stop it. k: No one disagree that insight is the most impt factor to enlightment, what I saying and emphasis again that we should not totally disregard meditation for practising of calm. As I say above - no evidence against meditation but a lot of evidence that calm is impt in jhanas for the supramundane level if we look at many suttas describing the 2nd jhanas. Whether calm is aroused by kuasala cittas is sufficenet enough or there is a need for meditation using kasina objects remains a contentious subject. Till then, unless explicitly declare no-no by Buddha or in the texts, there is still a possibility that meditation for calmness as a factor of enlightment cannot be discounted. As James alwasys say lets be open minded cheers Ken O 27605 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Howard I find your questions interesting and very much to the point of the task at hand. <> To my understanding, sati/panna cannot be made to arise by following a certain course of action, if that's what you mean. What can be cultivated, however, are the conditions that lead to the arising of sati/panna; but that arising will occur at a time, and in respect of an object, not of our choosing. <> As I understand it, there cannot be the cultivating of a practice of attending to dhammas, for the very good reason that dhammas only become apparent with the arising of sati/panna. So any attending to dhammas would be an instance of, rather than a means to, the occurrence of sati/panna. Furthermore, attending to dhammas if it occurs will occur by virtue of the appropriate conditions having been developed, rather than because of any cultivation of a practice (i.e., the exercise of deliberate effort). Cultivating the practice of attending to ceasing dhammas cannot be successful if dhammas are not apparent in the first place. The 'target' of any such attempted cultivation would be our conception of dhammas based on a rather inadequate intellectual understanding of things. Regarding the development of the conditions for the arising of sati/panna, however, this is a matter of reflecting on what one has heard and understood intellectually, and relating it to the present moment. Again, it is something that occurs (as it almost certainly does for all of us who use this list) rather than something that 'is done', and it can occur at any time regardless of the nature of the current activity. And likewise the fruit of that development, in the form of a level of awareness of a presently arising dhamma, can also occur at any time. Neither reality is 'self' or susceptible to control. I hope I have managed to make some sense. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ========================= > I agree with much that you say here, Jon. Now ... what, > according to > the Buddha, *are* the conditions needed for the arising of > sati/panna? Are you > saying that they do not include cultivating the practice of > attending to the > arising and ceasing dhammas? Do they also not include cultivating > greater > mental concentration and energy? Do they include none of these > because nothing can be cultivated? > You wrote "We should not expect that book > knowledge/intellectual > understanding of, for example, the difference between different > kinds of consciousness will allow us to directly perceive those > differences." I very much agree > with you on this. So, what else, then, does the Buddha say should > be done? > Something? Nothing? Is there a practice according to the Buddha? > The eightfold > noble path you have often said is the co-arising of eight factors, > and not a > training program. Did the Buddha provide a training program? If > there is no > program of practice, what conditions the arising ofthe factors of > enlightenment? Merely good luck?? ;-)) > > With metta, > Howard 27606 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Herman --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I mentioned my 10 minute belly laugh at the realisation that there > was no Herman Hofman in control of Herman Hofman's life precisely > because it was not a Buddhist experience. I was not thinking in a > Buddhist framework at the time. And in any event the two (the realisation and the response to it) are separate things, so the quality of one does not necessarily reflect the quality of the other. > I do not think there are any Buddhist, or any other ...ist or ism > experiences. Agreed. > Yes, I accept fully that if I wanted to explain whatever was > happening in terms of a certain theory, I would need to adopt that > certain theory. Not as I see it. One needs to be famimliar with the theory, but not necessarily adopt it. > Do you think it is possible to experience "things" as they are, > without reference to or in terms of other "things"? Well, I couldn’t answer that without clarifying what you have in mind by the question. Or to put it another way, either a 'yes' or a 'no' could be correct depending on how I choose to take the question. So you see, we are going to have to agree a frame of reference if the discussion is to move forward. Whose idea of '[experiencing] things as they are' are we working to -- yours or mine? Or the Buddha's? Jon 27607 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly Hi Andrew (& Victor), I’m still on about hats. Actually, I’m a real hat person as you may recall. Now, I know everyone appreciates all your hospitality but why not go one step further next time and introduce some of those fetching bush hats with dangling corks which keep the flies on the move and dispense with the need for waving them onto your neighbours or torture-jars. I think a group pic of you all in these would look very fine in the album;-) ..... --- Andrew wrote: > I wish to add some of my thoughts, taking > Sarah's advice to KenH to throw caution to the wind and just send the > post regardless of any qualms. It (or refutation of it) may assist > understanding. ..... Yes, you guys need to forget all that cautious legal training - it’s not good for the list;-) Great Cooran posting team-work this time;-) ... > I was prepared > to squash it underfoot. <....> > MY POINT - I think we all have to remember that, at times, we do what > needs to be done. We have to stop intellectualising and just act. > Accept the consequences, be they pleasant or unpleasant. Even if it > means putting (our worldling view of) the Teachings aside. > Did I lack sufficient saddha to stop me from breaking the precept > against killing? ..... I’d say we do what we do and others respond and react as they do. (Of course, now ‘we’ and no ‘they’). So whether we harm or don’t harm the fly, there are bound to be countless different cittas, cetasikas and rupas arising and falling away. Any of them can be the object of awareness. Saddha can only arise with wholesome cittas, so of course at moments of intending to kill, there’s no saddha. But then, there isn’t at all the other unwholesome moments in a day either. We can test out and know for ourselves what is real now. For example, we may abstain from killing with unwholesome thoughts as well or try to stop others with aversion, being disturbed by their intention to harm(as I often do with the kids I teach) or attachment to the insect. I know Christine has written some good posts on this before. It always comes back to knowing the present realities rather than judging by the actions. Just act, just do it - accumulations to follow or not follow any particular course or even to think in this way about acting;-) .... Like the point you made about the raft, there can be clinging to anything - even to following good sila or to developing wisdom. Andrew, it’s just occurred to me that this is a GREAT example for Victor who is collecting discourse references on ‘clinging to wholesome states’. THANK YOU! Victor, take note: A: >Naturally, later I reviewed the Simile of the Raft and in particular the Mahatanhasankhaya Sutta (MN38 paras 9-14, Bodhi edition page 352) in which the Buddha says "the Dhamma has been taught as similar to a raft, being for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of grasping". Bodhi's note 406 reads "This is said to show the bhikkhus that they should not cling even to the right view of insight meditation" Andrew, thanks for reporting back. Don’t run away - just keep posting (just act!!) and keep in mind those stylish hat numbers. I wonder if they’d work for summer mosquitoes here whilst I’m doing my Tai Chi. Now that’s a thought...... Metta, Sarah ====== 27608 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 5:54am Subject: Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Herman, k: I was wondering if what Buddha say about his experience Nibbana is not good enough then who is the better person. > Why put a limit on the number of unconditioned dhammas? k: If we assume that Buddha say about Unbinding in the sutta as the word for unconditioned dhamma or Nibbana, then there is only one. Or would you like to point to me that there are other unconditioned dhammas that is said the suttas? If there is, this will be a very interesting subject to talk about. kind regards Ken O 27609 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:48am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 05 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhammafarer has decided to get through the Samsara. He has mentally prepared to do the practice that will lead him to Nibbana. The practice is Mahasatipatthana. It is Vipassana meditation. This practice which is aware to everything that encounters at the very present moment is Noble practice. Before arising of Sammasambuddha, there are those who are practising and have been practising meditation. There are many different kinds of meditation. Some have strange names for each practice. Non-Buddhist meditators who had been practising Yoga said, ''Gotama The Buddha had to live only 80 years because he did not practise Yoga. If he practised Yoga, we would be able to live 1000 years, 10,000 or 100,000 or to years he wanted. Instead he practised a different meditation and he had to leave the Samsara. Unlike other kinds of meditation, Vipassana meditation is fully aware of the object that has been put under attention. At the thought of practising Vipassana meditation, the Dhammafarer's mind becomes pure. He has well believed in The Buddha, The Dhamma, and The Sangha, and the practice. He is now quite confident in Dhamma. As he has decided to get through the Samsara, he has a clear and exact destination. As he has a good destination, he has been repeatedly reminded by his own mind that he is leading to Arahatta Magga Nana. This reminder Sati Cetasika frequently arises in his mind and his mind is well aware of the clear destination. As he has defined destination, he will not commit things, the act of which is shameful. And he will not practise on bad things as the consequences of which are dreadful and frightenening. Now he nows where he is, who he is, what he is, and why he has to be here. And he has a clear destination. All in these matter, there is no reason to hurt anyone. Instead, he becomes passionate to all Sattas as his friends. Metta develops in him. Metta is lovingkindness and unhurting in nature. He will wish all good things happen to all Sattas. Developing this in his mind, he will steadfastly go forward to his destination. As he marches on his way, he will consider that there is no reason to strongly grasping all properties as his aimed target is Nibbana. Instead, he will frequently release his properties as Dana to other Sattas for the benefit of them. As he becomes a Vipassana meditator, his Dana is much more cleaner and purer than any other Sattas. If he joins the order of The Sangha and becomes a monk, he will keep all his Sila to the puremost form. If he still lives as a lay person, he will keep 5 precepts permanently and for life. And he will practise other forms of Sila as frequently as he can and whenever possible he will practice these Sila for the benefit of his achievement in progressing. The practice Vipassana will be in line with path Of Purification. At the base is Sila Visuddhi or moral purification. In Noble Eightfold Path, Samma-Kammanta, Samma-Vaca, and Samma-Ajiva are called Sila Maggangha. But the purest path arises at the very moment of Magga Citta. Before arising of Sotapatti Magga, the practitioner practises Sila as much as he can. These preliminary Dhamma such as Dana, Sila will be practising along with Bhavana ( Vipassana meditation ) in the same vicinity. As he has decided to get through the Samsara, he has been practising Vipassana meditation steadfastly. The practice starts when he becomes conscious to his environment at his waking up and it goes throughout the day and it ends temporarily when he falls asleep with Vipassana meditation. May you all practise Vipassana meditation to get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group htootintnaing@y... 27610 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:37am Subject: Nutriment (Re: [dsg] eyesense.) Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/3/03 1:00:08 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Larry, > yes. I concentrate on the eye, smaller than a louse's head, doing its > functions. It is a great text!! Really impressive. And just enjoying the > Tiika now, but slowly. More about the eyedecad, you will like it. How all > these rupas support eyesense and coordinate, and how all other groups of > rupa produced by citta, heat and nutrition also support the group produced > by kamma. And how the great elements tend to eyesense as if it were a royal > prince, by upholding, cohering, maturing (heat!) and movement (wind). > In Pali: long compounds and many words I had to look up. Can I make anybody > happy in jotting them down, there are a great deal of them? > Nina. ========================== Nina, in this post I touch on one of my "pet peeves" with regard to Abhidhamma. In itself, it isn't a topic of major importance, but it points to what I see as a more important issue - the taking of prescientific, conventional notions and turning them into alleged "realities". In the following I don't "pull my punches," but say out straight what I think about this issue. Please don't take my directness for rudeness, as rudely is the last way I wish to act, especially as regards you and all the other good people here. It seems to me that o'ja/nutriment/nutrition is a nonexistent, imagined (never observed) referent of a notion that existed circa 2500 BCE. Speaking conventionally, certain foods consist of components that the body incorporates into new tissue. Nowadays there are entire fields of nutrition, physiology, and biochemistry that attempt to explain, of course all conventionally, how this processing works. They are more or less adequate in predictive capability. All that people in ancient India saw was that children grew and adults added body mass and replaced muscle tissue, hair, nails, fat etc when they got enough food, but not so when they were starving, and these people came up with the notion of some substance in foods they called o'ja that was responsible for this. Now, I am not keen on the practice of presuming the existence of unobserved, hidden somethings (like God, selves, essences, ether, fate, and nutriment) as substitutes for looking into the actual functioning of observable phenomena. It seems to me, though, that the Abhidhammic scholars took the prescientific notion of an unobservable something they called "o'ja", not unlike the "ether" of more modern-day scientific theorists, and treated it as a "reality". This "reality" of nutriment, you have written, is only known through the mind door. This doesn't surprise me, as I see it as concept-only. I do not believe there is such a "reality". Do you ... really? And if so, why? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27611 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/3/03 8:49:23 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Howard > > I find your questions interesting and very much to the point of the > task at hand. > > < provide a training program?>> > > To my understanding, sati/panna cannot be made to arise by following > a certain course of action, if that's what you mean. What can be > cultivated, however, are the conditions that lead to the arising of > sati/panna; but that arising will occur at a time, and in respect of > an object, not of our choosing. > > < for the arising of sati/panna? Are you saying that they do not > include cultivating the practice of attending to the arising and > ceasing dhammas?>> > > As I understand it, there cannot be the cultivating of a practice of > attending to dhammas, for the very good reason that dhammas only > become apparent with the arising of sati/panna. So any attending to > dhammas would be an instance of, rather than a means to, the > occurrence of sati/panna. > > Furthermore, attending to dhammas if it occurs will occur by virtue > of the appropriate conditions having been developed, rather than > because of any cultivation of a practice (i.e., the exercise of > deliberate effort). > > Cultivating the practice of attending to ceasing dhammas cannot be > successful if dhammas are not apparent in the first place. The > 'target' of any such attempted cultivation would be our conception of > dhammas based on a rather inadequate intellectual understanding of > things. > > Regarding the development of the conditions for the arising of > sati/panna, however, this is a matter of reflecting on what one has > heard and understood intellectually, and relating it to the present > moment. Again, it is something that occurs (as it almost certainly > does for all of us who use this list) rather than something that 'is > done', and it can occur at any time regardless of the nature of the > current activity. And likewise the fruit of that development, in the > form of a level of awareness of a presently arising dhamma, can also > occur at any time. Neither reality is 'self' or susceptible to > control. > > I hope I have managed to make some sense. > > Jon > ======================== As I understand what you have said here, there is no practice taught by the Buddha other than studying what he said, reflecting on it, and relating it to the present moment. Of course, and here I am following what your general approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen or won't happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, thus, to sum up: There is no practice. How am I doing? ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27612 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:04am Subject: anapanasati 4 c anapanasati 4 c As to the words, , we read in a footnote (Vis. VIII, 234, note 64): Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance is one of the higher stages of insight knowledge (the sixth maha-vipassana ~naa.na), when panna has become more and more detached from conditioned realities, sees their danger and disadvantage. At the end of this tetrad, the Vis. states that this tetrad deals with contemplation of citta. The Commentary to the sutta, the Papa~ncasuudanii, explains the words of the sutta: , here this is the explanation: a monk who proceeds by the method, etc... although he makes the sign(nimitta) of the in-and-outbreathing the object, is nevertheless called someone who contemplates citta in citta, because the citta of that monk proceeds by establishing sati and sampaja~n~na (pa~n~naa) with regard to the object. Because there cannot be the development of mindfulness of breathing for someone who is forgetful and without clear comprehension. That is why, by experiencing the citta as object,(it is said) The Commentary on the Satipatthana Sutta (the Papa~ncasuudanii, translated by Ven. Soma) states that just as in the case of body and feelings, citta should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. Nina: these contemplations refer to the stages of insight: in the course of insight there is a clearer understanding of the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta, and hence there is a growing detachment from conditioned dhammas. When citta appears panna should see citta in citta, not a self in citta. Citta knows an object, it does not last and it is not self who knows an object. ***** Nina. 27613 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Dear Steve op 03-12-2003 03:06 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > This section at the beginning of the Anapanasati sutta was > briefly discussed at cooran on the weekend> > > "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle > chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community > of monks, such is this assembly. **The sort of assembly that is > worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy > of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is > this community of monks, such is this assembly.** N: yes, such texts always describe enlightened bhikkhus. I like this beginning very much, also about the Kamudian festival, and the monks forgiving one another. Reminds me of the perfection of dana which also includes forgiving. At that time there were still arahats with high distinctions: jhana and also the four discriminations. This is no longer possible today. Those monks who also developed jhana through mindfulness of breathing could reach these high distinctions. We read in the Co to the Maharahulovada sutta, that Sariputta taught mindfulness of breathing to Rahula: < Then, why did he exhort him to develop Mindfulness of Breathing? Because it is suitable for a sitting posture. It is said that the Thera had not observed that the Buddha had spoken about the meditation subject of materiality to Rahula. He thought that for Rahula who was seated in that way, steadfast and immovable, that subject of meditation in such sitting posture was suitable for him, and thus he spoke to him in that way. As regards the word, aanaapaanasati, mindfulness of breathing, he explained: "After you have comprehended inbreathing and outbreathing, and with this subject attained the fourth or the fifth stage of jhana, and you have developed insight, you should reach arahatship." As to the words, it is of great fruit, how is it of great fruit? Here, the monk who is intent on mindfulness of breathing, eradicates all defilements and reaches arahatship. If he cannot do this , there will be at the end of life the extinction of all defilements. If he cannot do this, he will be reborn in a deva plane, and when he has heard Dhamma from a deity (son of a deva) who is a speaker of Dhamma, he will attain arahatship. If this fails because the appearance of a Buddha has not taken place, he will realize the awakening of a solitary Buddha. If he cannot realize this, he can, being in the presence of Buddhas, attain higher knowledge quickly, such as the Elder Baahiya and others. Thus it is of great fruit.> Rahula was to reach arahatship. Nina. 27614 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re seeing now Dear Howard, op 01-12-2003 22:16 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > .... To me, the arising of a feeling of > pleasantness and feeling something as pleasant are one and the same. When we > feel pleasantness is exactly when pleasantness has arisen, whether that is > simultaneous with the object eliciting the pleasant feeling or whether it is > subsequent to it.... N:I read your post to Jon, explaining how you see things from the point of phenomenology. I also know that you are not extreme, and that you really appreciate conditions. One of your points is that you do not believe in unobserved rupas which arise in a group. You write about feeling and its object, but I come back to that later on. There are many things you do not experience but you know it is there: take the eye. You cannot see your eyesense, but you know it as an essential condition for seeing. Nutrition is another rupa arising in a group, and this rupa conditions another group, and this again another group. Thus, food that is taken can last you for a week! You wrote: B.B. remarks in Perfections, patience: <...for restlessness due to excessive activity is abandoned through reflective acquiesence in the Dhamma (dhammanijjhaanakhanti).> He explains that it is intellectual acceptance of doctrines which are not completely clear to the understanding. That is true, you cannot understand kamma, but you accept it. Don't you? I want to go deeper and stress more the active sense of this notion: nijjhaana (see the word jhaana in this compound which also means reflection) is reflection and study with awareness, again and again. With great patience and perseverance! Howard, you feel confortable with phenomenology, but, you may see that the goal of Abhidhamma is detachment from the idea of self. Medical science has a goal different from Abhidhamma, but there need not be any conflict. Keep in mind the different angles. Evenso, you may appreciate different angles in your case, and try to understand what the Abhidhamma is teaching and to what goal. As Ken O said, give it a try. Phenomenology is one angle, the Abhidhamma is another angle. During our Saturday hike (Lodewijk saw two deer, and we saw about fourteen wild swine), I was discussing with Lodewijk your point of view. N: How would Howard feel when he would meet A. Sujin and hear: Would people not be put off? L: People may say, "so what". First a long explanation is necessary for more than an hour. N: Yes, we have to know that seeing just experiences what appears through the eyes, and that it does not see shape and form, that that is already a different moment. But a long explanation, that is what A. Sujin usually does not give, that is thinking. She helps and reminds people to realize the characteristic of seeing, and that has to be seeing right now. No need to think or define. When we learn to be aware of different characteristics, we shall have no doubt about realities. No doubt about what objects are and the experience of objects. L: I believe that the eightfold Path has to be developed. We are on it, and step by step it has to be developed. ***** Take feeling: you may define it, reason about it, but, the angle of Abhidhamma is: it appears now, it feels, it has a characteristic that can be directly known. No need for words. I quote what Sarah just said about feeling now: Sarah: When studying the reality of the present moment more and more, we do not think of millenia. Not everybody is inclined to all the details of the Abhidhamma, there is no rule that you have to be interested in all details. Do no pay attention to me raving about the louse head. I find that details help me to go deeper into conditions, it helps to cling less to self. Nina. 27615 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly Dear Andrew, in such cases we need equanimity: everyone receives the result of his own actions. This helps if we can't remedy the situation of another being, in this case the fly. Why add more akusala kamma by squashing it? Best to do nothing. Nina. op 03-12-2003 00:55 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Did I lack sufficient saddha to stop me from breaking the precept > against killing? 27616 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Hello Nina, Weather is miserable today so I have skipped my afternoon walk and took the time to read the dsg posts more carefully. I think there is a small misunderstanding in what you said: Nina: >The sort of assembly that is >worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy >of respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is >this community of monks, such is this assembly. N: yes, such texts always describe enlightened bhikkhus. Michael: From the two suttas below it is possible to verify that not all of them have to be enlightened to be a member of that assembly. In fact of the eight individual types described below, which comprise the assembly worthy of gifts, etc., only one type is fully enlightened, while the one practicing to realize the fruit of stream entry has no realization whatsoever. The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who have practiced masterfully -- in other words, the four types [of noble disciples] when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types -- they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable field of merit for the world." AN XI.12 The Eight taken as Individual Types: Just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as whales, whale-eaters, and whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nagas, and gandhabbas, and there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; Arahants and those practicing for Arahantship... This is the eighth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline." Ud V5 Metta Michael 27617 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 11:49am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello RobM, and All, The difficulty I have with this, is that (I think) it assumes that everyone experiences similar mental states before similar actions. They don't. Someone intent on (say) the calculations necessary to guide a jet to a target, avoiding obstacles like anti-aircraft missiles and then get the bombs to hit the determined area may feel nothing but exhilaration at avoiding the opponents weapons and the satisfaction of a difficult task 'well done'. They may have a feeling of camaraderie with other colleagues in the plane and the ground crew - hi fives all round ... no hate, no anger. No great physical effort needed - except enjoyable mental concentration and the merest press of a button. Uncountable beings, human and otherwise, die in pain and fear, and others live with injuries and grief for the rest of their lives. But the airforce personnel didn't hate them, maybe didn't think of them - then or later, just completed a task ordered by their commander - who also didn't have any particularly strong feelings - just wanted a successful mission to assist in further promotion in the Airforce bureaucracy. On the other hand, a person bitten by a wasp, may experience a flare up of immediate pain and intense anger, and kill the insect with great hate. Does the Abhidhamma 'take' on this mean that the upset person killing the single wasp with hate is likely to end up in the Avici hell and the jubilant happy team successfully completing the mission and killing tens of thousands is headed for the deva realms? If it is mindstates that matter, do the intense feelings of hate, and wish to harm, felt in the bruising contact of football matches (by both players and spectators), or someone immersed in killing aliens in a computer game have the same fruits as for the airforce blokes and the waspkiller? Regarding compassion - RobM: 'the mind cannot bear others' suffering'- I wonder if 'cannot bear'shows aversion, a 'not wanting to see unpleastantness'?; and whether 'cannot bear' could also mean 'is unable to take on' anothers suffering - i.e. each must endure our own suffering (results of kamma?) .... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > Yes, the Atthasalini does say that "size matters". Modern society > tends to focus on the external (size, etc.) whereas the law of kamma > depends on the internal mental states. > > It is the number and the intensity of the akusala javana cittas that > impact kamma. If I have two animals, one is 10% bigger than the > other, and I kill both of them; the smaller one I kill cruelly with > much effort while the larger one I kill quickly without thinking > about it, then the killing of the smaller animal will have much more > grave kammic consequences than the killing of the larger animal. > > In other words, "killing a larger animal is more serious than > killing a smaller animal" is a general statement. In general, all > other things being equal, it would take more effort and consume more > time (i.e. more intense akusala javana cittas and a large quantity > of akuala javana cittas) to kill a larger animal. I don't see this > as a fixed rule, but more as a general principal. > > The same "internal" principle works for kusala as well. You raised > the question of compassion for a baby vs. compassion for a fly. When > karuna arises, the mind cannot bear others' suffering and wants to > remove that suffering (it does not specify human being, so animals > are included). Given human nature, it seems natural that seeing a > suffering baby would condition more moments of karuna than seeing a > suffering fly. More moments of compassion means more good kamma. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27618 From: robmoult Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 1:17pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > The difficulty I have with this, is that (I think) it assumes that > everyone experiences similar mental states before similar actions. > They don't. Someone intent on (say) the calculations necessary to > guide a jet to a target, avoiding obstacles like anti-aircraft > missiles and then get the bombs to hit the determined area may feel > nothing but exhilaration at avoiding the opponents weapons and the > satisfaction of a difficult task 'well done'. They may have a feeling > of camaraderie with other colleagues in the plane and the ground > crew - hi fives all round ... no hate, no anger. No great physical > effort needed - except enjoyable mental concentration and the merest > press of a button. Uncountable beings, human and otherwise, die in > pain and fear, and others live with injuries and grief for the rest > of their lives. But the airforce personnel didn't hate them, maybe > didn't think of them - then or later, just completed a task ordered > by their commander - who also didn't have any particularly strong > feelings - just wanted a successful mission to assist in further > promotion in the Airforce bureaucracy. > On the other hand, a person bitten by a wasp, may experience a flare > up of immediate pain and intense anger, and kill the insect with > great hate. > Does the Abhidhamma 'take' on this mean that the upset person killing > the single wasp with hate is likely to end up in the Avici hell and > the jubilant happy team successfully completing the mission and > killing tens of thousands is headed for the deva realms? ===== I like your approach of testing an argument by taking it to an extreme. My opinion is, Yes, the killer of the wasp conditions more bad kamma for himself than the flight navigator. However, I don't agree that the actions of the flight navigator are enough to send him to the Deva realms and it is highly unlikely that a single act of killing a wasp is going to send somebody to Avici hell. The flight navigator INDIRECTLY caused tens of thousands to die; in the same way, my dinner last night INDIRECTLY caused a chicken to be killed. According to Theravada, I am not guilty of breaking the first precept by eating meat. Extending the same argument, the flight navigator is also not guilty of breaking the first precept. On the other hand, the wasp killer meets all the criteria for breaking the first precept (another life, knowledge of another life, desire to kill, effort to kill, consequent death). ===== > If it is mindstates that matter, do the intense feelings of hate, and > wish to harm, felt in the bruising contact of football matches (by > both players and spectators), or someone immersed in killing aliens > in a computer game have the same fruits as for the airforce blokes > and the waspkiller? ===== The airforce bloke did not experience any moments of dosa. The wasp killer experienced a relatively small number of intense moments of dosa. The football players / spectators experience a relatively large number of not-so-intense moments of dosa. The wasp killer, the football players and the spectators all create akusala kamma. Their actions also qualify as "strong past cittas"; wasp killer's cittas are "strong" because of their intensity, football players / spectators cittas are "strong" because of their frequency. "Strong past cittas" are a conditioning state for natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissya). This means that future mind-states can be influenced by these actions (i.e. accumulations are formed). ===== > > Regarding compassion - > RobM: 'the mind cannot bear others' suffering'- I wonder if 'cannot > bear'shows aversion, a 'not wanting to see unpleastantness'?; and > whether 'cannot bear' could also mean 'is unable to take on' anothers > suffering - i.e. each must endure our own suffering (results of > kamma?) .... ===== I hesitated when including this description of karuna which includes the term "unable to bear". The last time I included this expression (in my long post on karuna), Sarah had a similar reaction; "doesn't 'unable to bear' imply dosa?" Sarah verified that this was the term used in the English-language text and also checked the Pali. As I recall, the term is clarified in the text by saying that "witnessing another's suffering makes the heart quiver"; from this clarification, I see no dosa and no implication of "each must endure our own suffering". The arising of the thought that we must endure our own suffering is a description of the arising of equanimity. Comments? Metta, Rob M :-) 27619 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:51pm Subject: Vism. thread Hi Nina, Where are you in the translations of the Vism. commentary and what are your intentions? Larry 27620 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Andrew (& Victor), > > I'm still on about hats. Actually, I'm a real hat person as you may > recall. Now, I know everyone appreciates all your hospitality but why not > go one step further next time and introduce some of those fetching bush > hats with dangling corks which keep the flies on the move and dispense > with the need for waving them onto your neighbours or torture-jars. Hi Sarah It's a good idea but I can't remember ever seeing KenH (the main fly target) wearing a hat. Also, as his post discloses, they were attacking his heel! > I'd say we do what we do and others respond and react as they do. (Of > course, now `we' and no `they'). So whether we harm or don't harm the fly, > there are bound to be countless different cittas, cetasikas and rupas > arising and falling away. Any of them can be the object of awareness. > Saddha can only arise with wholesome cittas, so of course at moments of > intending to kill, there's no saddha. In nama terms, what is "intending to kill"? Is it the universal cetasika, cetana (volition)? As Christine and RobM have been discussing, when we conventionally talk about "killing something", this is a concept that may take seconds, minutes or even hours (depending on what we are trying to kill - see George Orwell's famous essay about "Killing an Elephant" in Burma). This time covers an awful lot of 17-set mind-moments. As the overall intention is to kill, must all the cittas in the time span be akusala (due to "killing" cetana)? As you can see, I am still having difficulty switching to mind-moment thinking from conventional thinking. The root of what I am asking is - if I had killed that march fly, could I have experienced some kusala cittas (karuna?) while "doing it" (conventional mode of expression)? > .... > Like the point you made about the raft, there can be clinging to anything > - even to following good sila or to developing wisdom. ...which makes akusala what would otherwise be kusala? > Andrew, thanks for reporting back. Don't run away - just keep posting Thanks Sarah I will keep trying. Am doing work for a Swedish publisher at the moment and we are in the editor's panic phase, so there is lots to do here. Metta, Andrew > 27621 From: Andrew Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:12pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > Dear Andrew, > Some types of cittas are "unprompted" (asankharika) and some types > are "prompted". > They can be prompted by internal thoughts etc. or because of the > urgings of others. The sotapanna has no more inclination to kill and > so probably the abstaining from killing is asankharika - it doesnt > need to be prompted and arises instantly. > The one who is not sotapanna still has tendencies towards killing so > sometimes the abstaining from killing has to be prompted. I think it > is good Christine and Ken were around to give such prompting. > RobertK > Dear RobertK Thank you for this reply. It would be great to meet you during your trip to Queensland - we locals will get our heads together and organise something. A nice time of year to visit, too. I would like to ask you what "tendencies to kill" are in nama terms and how do they manifest in a mind moment? What role does cetana have to play in this? As I have just posted to Sarah, the conventional expression "killing something" encompasses a huge number of mind moments. Are they all necessarily akusala? Metta Andrew 27622 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 3:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Hi Jon, Ever thought of taking up law. I imagine you'd be very good at it :-) wrote: > Herman > > > > Yes, I accept fully that if I wanted to explain whatever was > > happening in terms of a certain theory, I would need to adopt that > > certain theory. > > Not as I see it. One needs to be famimliar with the theory, but not > necessarily adopt it. > I can see what you mean, but one who is less familiar with a theory will get refuted or corrected by one who is more familiar with that theory. Depending on the value placed on getting the theory right, the discussion will require an ever deeper study of the theory, not what the theory was describing. And in those cases where the theory is regarded as being a closed canon (no additions, deletions or modifications), a recourse to the "why" of the theory is futile. Such discussions will end up being a theoretical discussions, and reality will have vanished out the window quite some time ago. > > Do you think it is possible to experience "things" as they are, > > without reference to or in terms of other "things"? > > Well, I couldn't answer that without clarifying what you have in mind > by the question. Or to put it another way, either a 'yes' or a 'no' > could be correct depending on how I choose to take the question. > > So you see, we are going to have to agree a frame of reference if the > discussion is to move forward. > > Whose idea of '[experiencing] things as they are' are we working to > -- yours or mine? Or the Buddha's? > > Jon I agree with what you are saying. A conceptual discussion requires an agreed frame of reference. The difference in this case is that "what is experienced" does not become clearer viewed through a conceptual framework, it becomes unclearer. It becomes the conceptual framework, actually. So what is required is a negative framework, one that negates any hint of an implicit reality of the selected relations that are made between selected sensations. Such a framework will not allow for a discussion of "what is experienced". Such a framework would lead to the unbinding of all the constructs that allow a discussion to take place. There is an unbridgable gap between the idea of experiencing things, and experiencing things. It doesn't really matter who'se idea of experiencing things we use, as long as it is seen that the idea is not so, we can all be quiet about it :-) Peace Herman 27623 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 4:08pm Subject: Kangaroos (was Re: October thoughts from Cooran) Hi Ken, Good to be typing to you :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi Herman, > > k: I was wondering if what Buddha say about his experience Nibbana > is not good enough then who is the better person. In the case of Captain Cook and kangaroos, people developed all sorts of weird ideas about kangaroos. Some of the drawings that were made are very funny, because they are so obviously different to the real thing. Even for some of those who had actually seen a kangaroo, it was very difficult to get the proportions of the drawing right, because the form of the kangaroo was so different to anything they had ever drawn before. There was nothing to compare to! The point is that it is not important to have an idea of nibbana, because any idea of nibbana will be wrong. Thinking about nibbana won't get you to Australia, if you know what I mean. > > > Why put a limit on the number of unconditioned dhammas? > > k: If we assume that Buddha say about Unbinding in the sutta as the > word for unconditioned dhamma or Nibbana, then there is only one. > Or would you like to point to me that there are other unconditioned > dhammas that is said the suttas? If there is, this will be a very > interesting subject to talk about. > I would say that the negation of a positive is never 1 (one). Can you tell me how quantity applies to the indefinite? Or how does unity apply to the featureless? Peace Herman > > > kind regards > Ken O 27624 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re seeing now Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/3/2003 1:04:01 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > During our Saturday hike (Lodewijk saw two deer, and we saw about fourteen > wild swine), I was discussing with Lodewijk your point of view. > N: How would Howard feel when he would meet A. Sujin and hear: seeing now at this very moment.> Would people not be put off? --------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't be put off by that. It is simply a true observation, and one which is useful to make. -------------------------- > L: People may say, "so what". First a long explanation is necessary for more > than an hour. > N: Yes, we have to know that seeing just experiences what appears through > the eyes, and that it does not see shape and form, that that is already a > different moment. -------------------------- Howard: I have no problem with that at all. That's exactly how things are as far as I'm concerned. ------------------------- But a long explanation, that is what A. Sujin usually does > not give, that is thinking. She helps and reminds people to realize the > characteristic of seeing, and that has to be seeing right now. No need to > think or define. When we learn to be aware of different characteristics, we > shall have no doubt about realities. No doubt about what objects are and the > experience of objects. > L: I believe that the eightfold Path has to be developed. We are on it, and > step by step it has to be developed. ------------------------------- Howard: I certainly agree with that! ------------------------------ > ***** > Take feeling: you may define it, reason about it, but, the angle of > Abhidhamma is: it appears now, it feels, it has a characteristic that can be > directly known. No need for words. I quote what Sarah just said about > feeling now: > Sarah: intellectually at least, I think we can appreciate that it is the > characteristic of feelings, say, to arise accordingly and to fall away > almost immediately. Whilst reading this email, the feeling now is > different from a split instant ago and each time we look at a different > visible object or consider what’s written there are different feelings > again according to so many factors. Being conditioned is part of the > nature of realities. -------------------------------- Howard: My point about feeling was quite specific. Someone - you, I think - claimed that a feeling arises as part of an act of consciousness of an object, the feeling being with regard to that object, but there is no awareness of pleasantness or unpleasantness or neutrality at that time - that awareness comes afterwards, with the feeling then being an object of consciousness. It is that which I took exception to. An unfeeling feeling is no feeling at all. I can except contact as conditioning simultaneous feeling or subsequent feeling, though I now tend to agree that it is probably simulataneous, but I do not accept an occurrence of unfeeling feeling. Whenever a feeling occurs is when it feels, and whenever a feeling feels is when it occurs. Feeling feels - that is all there is to feeling. ------------------------------ > > When studying the reality of the present moment more and more, we do not > think of millenia. ------------------------------ Howard: Hah! you like my millenia business, huh? ;-)) ------------------------------ > Not everybody is inclined to all the details of the Abhidhamma, there is no > rule that you have to be interested in all details. Do no pay attention to > me raving about the louse head. I find that details help me > to go deeper > into conditions, it helps to cling less to self. ============================ With metta, Howard 27625 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 4:23pm Subject: RE: [dsg] PHOTOS PHOTOS PHOTOS The photos of the Jedis are totally amazing. Just imagine how much saddha people need to have to think about building at such a grand scale! Thanks, Christine et Al, for the little bit of Burma! kom > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 11:33 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] PHOTOS PHOTOS PHOTOS > > > All members,(new and not so new), > > DhammaStudyGroup has four photo albums. > The albums are: > 1. Members - there are currenty 63 photos of members in this album. > 2. Significant Others and Family - there are currently 11 photos in > this album. > 3. DSG Meetings - there are currently 14 Group photos in this album. > 4. Myanmar (members trip October 2003) - there are currently 41 > photos in this album. 27626 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:02pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly -Dear RobM and Christine, The texts are very specific that the one who performs any misdeed kills with ignorance of the results of kamma makes worse kamma than someone who has any understanding about kamma.In the commentaries they give the example of the baby who reaches out for a hot pot on a stove. They are completely ignorant of the danger and so burn themselves badly. The adult takes hold of the same pot, but very gingerly moving it quickly. They feel the heat but don't get burned much, if at all. Say someone is poor and makes a living as a hunter supporting his family in this way. But he knows it is akusala, so as soon as another opportunity arises he gives up that action and never kills again. On the other hand, the person ignorant of Dhamma might even do hunting as a sport, enjoying the killing, and looking for any chance to go hunting. Hunting is always akusala but we see how the ignorant one is in the more dangerous position. In the case of the flightnavigator who fires off the missile resulting in the death of many beings, but who feels pleasure this is rooted in moha of a very high degree. Killing at a distance is still killing according to the scriptures and so is ordering another to kill. So in fact the kamma of that act of killing will give its unpleasant results to many: the one who pushed the button certainly; and also his commander and probably even the person who ordered the soldiers to fight in the first place. It is one of the reasons that being the ruler of a country is seen as such grave and duty in the Buddhist texts. ================ "robmoult" > My opinion is, Yes, the killer of the wasp conditions more bad kamma > for himself than the flight navigator. ======= In fact killing a human is considered more serious than killing an animal or insect in the Buddhist texts. ============== rob.moult@j...>The flight navigator INDIRECTLY caused tens of thousands to die; in > the same way, my dinner last night INDIRECTLY caused a chicken to be > killed. According to Theravada, I am not guilty of breaking the > first precept by eating meat. Extending the same argument, the > flight navigator is also not guilty of breaking the first precept. ========== As I said above killing at a distance is not an excuse in Buddhism, thus the airman certainly killed. Do you believe the buddha and arahants were indirect killers when they ate meat or fish? RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > The difficulty I have with this, is that (I think) it assumes that > > everyone experiences similar mental states before similar > actions. > > They don't. Someone intent on (say) the calculations necessary to > > guide a jet to a target, avoiding obstacles like anti-aircraft > > missiles and then get the bombs to hit the determined area may > feel > > nothing but exhilaration at avoiding the opponents weapons and the > > satisfaction of a difficult task 'well done'. 27627 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 7:20pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" > I would like to ask you what "tendencies to kill" are in nama terms > and how do they manifest in a mind moment? What role does cetana > have to play in this? As I have just posted to Sarah, the > conventional expression "killing something" encompasses a huge number > of mind moments. Are they all necessarily akusala? Metta > Andrew =============== Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view. And then vittikkama where bad actions such as killing and lying are done. Taking your example of squashing the dieing fly: presumably there was initially some compassion? you wanted to alleviate the flys pain? This is kusala. Then you thought squashing it would end its pain quickly? This is akusala, probably rooted in wrong view. There wasn't correct understanding of kamma and result , there wasn't equanimity based on such understanding. If you had squashed it that would be akusala at the moments of doing the action, but immediately afterwards there might have been reflection that such action is wrong and the determination not to do it again might have arisen: kusala. Or you might have been pleased that the fly was now dead and not suffering, you might have been happy about killing it? This is akusala rooted in ignorance and wrong view and lobha. Or you might have had regret: mea culpa!, felt bad; this is akusala rooted in dosa. RobertK 27628 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 7:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken O, ----------- KO: > I think I should clarify that the jhanas I talking about there is the jhanas of the stream entrant to Arahant --------------- There is confusion over what each of us is talking about. I'm not sure what you mean by, "the jhanas of the stream entrant to Arahant." To me, that could mean the Right Concentration that accompanies each moment of Path Consciousness. I believe it is, at the very least, at the level of the first jhana. If the Ariyan had been a jhana practitioner prior to enlightenment, then the degree of concentration might be higher -- it would be at whatever level of jhana that ariyan had perfected. By the way, I think I have read (on dsg) that the level is always the same. So, even if an ariyan develops higher levels of jhana after attaining Stream-entry, his subsequent moments of supramundane Right Concentration will remain at the original, lower, level. (I'm not sure if I've understood that correctly -- or if it's relevant.) --------------- KH: > > Even so, I have to remember there are no rules; we are entitled to sit quietly or we can dance to Guns 'n Roses. KO: > Definitely we have to seek quietly this has been reference in many sutta even in Sati suttas where one go the a seluded place ..... ----------------- Now it's my turn to be misunderstood :-) When I wrote the above, I was referring to my own bad habits: I tend to argue with people who want to practise in a way which I think the Buddha did not teach. I should leave them in peace. The meditative development of a calm, concentrated mind CAN be a step in the development of vipassana: That is, if a person is developing jhana. However, if it is a form of concentration other than jhana (as it is in modern, popular, traditions), then, no, it is not a part of vipassana development. It is not a method taught by the Buddha. ------------- KO: > Why is there references to kasina if it is not impt? If it is not impt why should Buddha expound it in the first place. -------------- I'd like to remind you that, in the Tipitaka, some ariyans developed jhana followed by vipassana, some developed vipassana followed by jhana, some developed jhana and vipassana together and some developed vipassana alone (no jhana). The last category of ariyans are described as having attained by bare insight. The descriptions of all four ways of attaining are to be understood -- as part of our Dhamma study. We are not required to choose, "I will follow the path of bare- insight," or, "I will develop jhana then vipassana etc." There is no self to choose these things; they depend on accumulated conditions. ---------------- KO: > On the other hand, we should also realise that meditation could be so conditioned that it has become akusala as we are attached to the calmness effect. These are the dangers of practising we have to address when we practise. ------------- Exactly. In fact, I find it hard to imagine how a person could set out to 'intentionally practice.' That is, how he could do so without attachment (attachment to calm, attachment to the idea of becoming a better person), or, worse still, wrong view of a controlling self. ------------- KO: > When I say that five hindrances cannot be suppressed bc what is anatta in the first place can never be suppressed. And also bc they are also condition it can only be discern and eventually eradicated. Suppressiong will mean a *self* compelling to stop it. --------------- Agreed. Once again, we were misunderstanding each other. Kind regards, Ken H 27629 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 2:57pm Subject: Path & Fruit Hi, all - I have a question: Abhidhamma presents the notion of path consciousness and fruition consciousness (or path and fruit). Now, path and fruit are also mentioned in the suttas. I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that in the suttas, 'path' refers to a path of practice (leading to a stage of enlightenment) and 'fruit' to the result of that path of practice, namely the given stage of enlightenment. So, there is the path to stream entry, and its fruition which consists of entering the stream. Likewise for once returning, non-returning, and full enlightenment. Is there anywhere in the suttas mention of path and fruit consciousness, or do they only appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the commentaries? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27630 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 9:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi Howard, Excellent, well said. Nina. P.S. I come back to nutriment, interesting subject. I want to pay more attention to it. op 03-12-2003 16:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As I understand what you have said here, there is no practice taught > by the Buddha other than studying what he said, reflecting on it, and relating > it to the present moment. Of course, and here I am following what your general > approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen or won't > happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, thus, to sum up: > There > is no practice. > How am I doing? ;-) 27631 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:46pm Subject: Kangaroos (was Re: October thoughts from Cooran) Hi Herman "The point is that it is not important to have an idea of nibbana, because any idea of nibbana will be wrong. Thinking about nibbana won't get you to Australia, if you know what I mean." k: You are right there is no need to know what is Nibbana bc whatever we label it, there is a strong likelihood of being attached to it. I think this sutta is a good reminder that even the path leading to Nibbana also cannot be cling to. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html However, Buddha still have to describe though for worlding like me. It is just there. kind regards Ken O 27632 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 10:49pm Subject: Kangaroos (was Re: October thoughts from Cooran) Hi Herman again :) > I would say that the negation of a positive is never 1 (one). > > Can you tell me how quantity applies to the indefinite? Or how does > unity apply to the featureless? k: If you meant in this way, then definitely there is no definite number. One unconditioned dhamma is only for the sake of clarifying the dhamma. kind regards Ken O 27633 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 11:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James You are right to insist that the mind is indeed pure and bright and I am wrong about it. Here is another reference on luminous mind http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn140.html "There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, there arises a feeling of pleasure. When sensing a feeling of pleasure, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling of pleasure.' One discerns that 'With the cessation of that very sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure, the concomitant feeling -- the feeling of pleasure that has arisen in dependence on the sensory contact that is to be felt as pleasure -- ceases, is stilled.' In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as pain... In dependence on a sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, there arises a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain. When sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain, one discerns that 'I am sensing a feeling of neither pleasure nor pain.' One discerns that 'With the cessation of that very sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain, the concomitant feeling -- the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain that has arisen in dependence on the sensory contact that is to be felt as neither pleasure nor pain -- ceases, is stilled.' k: You still have not tell me your position on how the original state of mind (or pure mind) is Anatta. To me your position there is something underlying in our consciouness. kind regards Ken O 27634 From: Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 6:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi again, Nina - In a message dated 12/4/03 12:19:18 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Excellent, well said. > Nina. > P.S. I come back to nutriment, interesting subject. I want to pay more > attention to it. > op 03-12-2003 16:47 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >As I understand what you have said here, there is no practice taught > >by the Buddha other than studying what he said, reflecting on it, and > relating > >it to the present moment. Of course, and here I am following what your > general > >approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen or won't > >happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, thus, to sum up: > >There > >is no practice. > >How am I doing? ;-) > > ======================== Thank you, Nina. But I feel obliged to clarify a bit, because I don't want to give a false impression just to "curry favor." What I stated was my understanding of Jon's position, but it was not a concurring with that position - though I do find some "hopefulness" in his mention of relating the teachings to the present moment ;-). I think that the Buddha did, very much so, teach a path of practice. Besides wanting us to attend to his teachings, and reflect on them, I believe he taught us to put them into practice. Specifically, I believe he encouraged his followers to exercise volition in maintaining ongoing mindfulness, observing precepts, guarding the senses, and engaging in formal meditation, mastering the jhanas if possible. I believe that he taught his followers, again and again, in enumerable suttas, to train themselves (!) in a variety of ways. I've read many, many suttas to this effect, using exactly this language, including the Satipatthana Sutta. What is true is that, except conventionally, there is no "one" to exercise volition. But, in truth, volition can be exercised. The Buddha's teachings need to be studied to know what conditions are necessary to advance on the path of practice, and what steps need be taken, volitionally, to bring these conditions about. Certainly we cannot just "decide" that wisdom shall arise, but we can foster conditions which will lead to the suppression of hindrances and will hold the defilements in abeyance to enable clear seeing. We cannot merely wish that the mind be concentrated and thereby have it be so, but we can be moral in our actions, which will lead to calm and peace, and these will support our efforts at being increasingly mindful, and that cultivated mindfulness will condition concentration which will then condition futher calm which will make further mindfulness easier, etc, etc, and turning a concentrated, peaceful mind to the task of investigation of dhammas will lead to the direct knowing of the tilakkhana in all dhammas that arise, and to liberation. There is no control, but there is influence. Volition can be exercised, and volitional actions do have consequences. Proper volition (Right Intention) can foster conditions that ultimately lead to liberation. If this were not so, there would be no point whatsoever in being a Buddhist. That's the way I see the matter. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27635 From: ashkenn2k Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 11:25pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi Howard, "Of course, and here I am following what your general > approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen or won't happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, thus, to sum up: There is no practice. How am I doing? ;-)" Just the chinese sayings wu wei er wei (no action yet there is action) literal translation. I would to share this interesting sutta paragraph with you http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." kind regards Ken O 27636 From: robmoult Date: Wed Dec 3, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > The texts are very specific that the one who performs any misdeed > kills with ignorance of the results of kamma makes worse kamma than > someone who has any understanding about kamma. ===== Agreed - one who fulfills all five conditions of killing without a knowledge of kamma creates a more weighty result than one who fulfills all five conditons of killing with a knowledge of kamma. My interpretation of Christine's flight navigator is that there is no intention to kill; killing happens as an indirect consequence of the navigator's actions. This is why I gave the example of eating meat as not breaking the first precept. ===== > In the case of the flightnavigator who fires off the missile > resulting in the death of many beings, but who feels pleasure this > is rooted in moha of a very high degree. Killing at a distance is > still killing according to the scriptures and so is ordering another > to kill. So in fact the kamma of that act of killing will give its > unpleasant results to many: the one who pushed the button certainly; > and also his commander and probably even the person who ordered the > soldiers to fight in the first place. It is one of the reasons that > being the ruler of a country is seen as such grave and duty in the > Buddhist texts. ===== In Christine's example, the navigator is simply doing calculations to navigate the jet to avoid anti-aircraft fire, the navigator is not launching the bombs. To take my point to the extreme, consider the person who cut down the tree which was used to make the paper upon which the navigator did his calculations to guide the jet; is this tree-cutter going to suffer the unwholesome kamma of killing thousands of people? If we are discussing the kammic result of the person who releases the bomb, knowing full well that the bomb will kill, yet still taking joy in a job well done, then I agree with your comments about killing at a distance and the kammic weight of actions performed without a knowledge of kamma. Metta, Rob M :-) 27637 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:02am Subject: Vism thread and Rupas Hi Larry, Nina, Howard & All, > I thought I would wait until Nina catches up before going on with the > Visuddhimagga thread. > > Larry > --------------------- Good idea. Hopefully Jim will be back sometime too and he also likes to go slowly and to carefully check the Tiika. As we’re proceeding slowly with this difficult text, I have an idea for your consideration. Given the recent passages on primary and derived rupas and Howard’s questions about groups of rupas etc, would it be helpful to also post Nina’s excellent book on ‘Rupas’ (on-line, but not published) in extracts for support and clarification? It is full of good quotes, mostly from the suttas but also from other texts and I think it shows how the Abhidhamma ‘take’ on these is no different from that in the suttas. It’s quite a small book. Of course it could be anyone else that does the posting, though you do a particularly good job in this regard. The latest version will be here: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Glad to hear any comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 27638 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: Path & Fruit(fly) Hi Howard, Sorry about the little addition to the title. Can't help myself :-) I'm not in a position to answer your question, but just wanted to add to the "texture" of your question. I never tire of reading the Samaññaphala Sutta, which is rendered as The Fruits of the Contemplative Life on http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html My reading of this sutta leaves me with the same suspicions that you have re practice and enlightenment. I especially love the following line: "You aren't turning me over to my enemies, are you? How can there be such a large community of monks -- 1,250 in all -- with no sound of sneezing, no sound of coughing, no voices at all?" I don't think they were reading either. Peace Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > I have a question: Abhidhamma presents the notion of path > consciousness and fruition consciousness (or path and fruit). Now, path and fruit are also > mentioned in the suttas. I'm not sure about this, but I suspect that in the > suttas, 'path' refers to a path of practice (leading to a stage of > enlightenment) and 'fruit' to the result of that path of practice, namely the given stage > of enlightenment. So, there is the path to stream entry, and its fruition > which consists of entering the stream. Likewise for once returning, non-returning, > and full enlightenment. Is there anywhere in the suttas mention of path and > fruit consciousness, or do they only appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the > commentaries? > > With metta, > Howard 27639 From: shakti Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:59am Subject: The Holy Relics of Lord Buddha Dear Thomas, Thank you for sharing the site about Lord Buddha's relics. I especially enjoyed the photos. Metta, Shakti nordwest wrote: Dear sangha, The Lord Buddha's Holy Relics - a collection the most holy objects of Buddhism NOTICE: Pictures of lord Buddha's corporal relics are displayed out of True reverence to the Master and should not be misconstrued as any thing other, by non Buddhists viewing this page. IF YOU DON'T APPRECIATE THIS INFORMATION, PLEASE KEEP YOUR OPINION TO YOURSELF. DO NOT START DISCUSSING OR SLANDERING ABOUT THE HOLY RELICTS OF THE LORD BUDDHA. Thank you for your understanding and respect. You find the pictures and informations at http://www.shakumasu.com/ If you have visited the site before, you may have to "refresh" the page to see the link to "The Lord Buddha's Relics" Gassho, Thomas 27640 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 4:09am Subject: Re: The Holy Relics of Lord Buddha Hi Thomas, We have not typed to each other before. I have enjoyed browsing through the wide range material you have posted previously. I am asking your permission to discuss this current post of yours in the context of attachment. I cannot say whether I am a Buddhist or not. No harm done either way. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear sangha, > > The Lord Buddha's Holy Relics - a collection the most holy objects of Buddhism 27641 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 5:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" wrote: > Hi James k: You still have not tell me your position on how the original > state of mind (or pure mind) is Anatta. To me your position there is > something underlying in our consciouness. > > > > kind regards > Ken O Hi Ken O, I am hesitant to answer this question because I don't want it to turn into a debate. It seems that you have different ideas about consciousness and anatta than I do. I believe that your thinking on these matters have been greatly influenced by the Abhidhamma. Since you want me to explain what I believe as it compares to what you believe, I am going to have to address these differences. The Abhidhamma explains that all dhammas (nama and rupa) are impermanent, non-self, and suffering. I have some issues with the suffering characteristic for rupa, but I will leave that for now; what I believe that the Abhidhamma leaves out, which is very important to understanding, is that all dhammas are also impure. Phenomena are impure, thoughts are impure, the body is impure, etc., and even empty space is impure. The thing that makes all of this impure is impermanence, non-self, and suffering. The only thing that isn't impure is consciousness. Consciousness is pure; and its purity is like a light in comparison to the darkness of the impurity of samsara. If consciousness wasn't pure, Nibbana wouldn't be possible. The Abhidhamma describes consciousness in terms of sensory contacts: eye consciousness, nose consciousness, feeling consciousness, etc. and that each of these consciousnesses rise and fall. I won't dispute that, but I don't believe that it presents the entire picture. There are two levels to consciousness: the pure consciousness, and the consciousness that because of ignorance has created a false sense of self. I know that this thinking doesn't correspond with the Abhidhamma because the Abhidhamma is interested in an atomistic view of dhammas: that everything must be broken down to its smallest independent status. However, consciousness isn't like that. Consciousness can have a level of impurity, that is impermanent, non-self, and suffering, and a level of purity, to where those characteristics don't apply (and I don't mean the opposite, I mean they just don't apply). This is a very complicated subject and I hope you can follow me thus far. For some support, I want to go to one sutta, "An Analysis of the Statement": The Blessed One said this: "A monk should investigate in such a way that, his consciousness neither externally scattered & diffused, nor internally positioned, he would from lack of clinging/sustenance be unagitated. When -- his consciousness neither externally scattered & diffused, nor internally positioned -- from lack of clinging/sustenance he would be unagitated, there is no seed for the conditions of future birth, aging, death, or stress." After the Buddha spoke these words, the monks went to Ven. Maha Kaccana to explain them. He was hesitant to explain but he explained in part: "He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the self as in consciousness. His consciousness changes & is unstable, but his consciousness doesn't -- because of the change & instability of consciousness -- alter in accordance with the change in consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, threatened, nor solicitous." Later, the Buddha verified that this was the correct explanation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn138.html From this explanation it is demonstrated that there are in fact two levels to consciousness. One level can be unstable but the other level doesn't need to be unstable. I usually refer to the unstable level as `consciousness' and the stable, pure, luminous level as `awareness'. But, in actuality, they are two parts of the same thing. The terms used aren't important. Ken, I would suggest you read the entire sutta to get a good understanding of what I am saying. In summary, pure consciousness or pure mind doesn't suggest a self nor is it dependent on a self. What this is like I don't know, I don't have pure awareness yet (only glimpses). My understanding is only theoretical. Metta, James Ps. I may or may not reply to posts depending on certain conditions. If there is a time when I don't reply, please don't take it personally. 27642 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 1:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/4/03 2:28:55 AM Eastern Standard Time, ashkenn2k@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > > "Of course, and here I am following what your general > >approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen > or won't happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, > thus, to sum up: There is no practice. How am I doing? ;-)" > > > Just the chinese sayings wu wei er wei (no action yet there is > action) literal translation. I would to share this interesting sutta > paragraph with you > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > > "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], > there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being > no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that > consciousness doesn't land &grow, there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed > becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging &death, > sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the > cessation of this entire mass of suffering &stress." > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, this is a lovely description of the unforced, "just happening", life flow of the arahant. But we do not operate at this level, or at least it doesn't *appear* that we do, and it won't help to pretend to ourselves that we do. We have to get up, rattle our cell door, push it, pull it, and finally get out of the cell before we first realize that the door was unlocked and ajar all the time. --------------------------------------------------- > > > kind regards > Ken O > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27643 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 2:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, James (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/4/03 8:54:51 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ashkenn2k" > wrote: > >Hi James > k: You still have not tell me your position on how the > original > >state of mind (or pure mind) is Anatta. To me your position there > is > >something underlying in our consciouness. > > > > > > > >kind regards > >Ken O > > Hi Ken O, > > I am hesitant to answer this question because I don't want it to turn > into a debate. It seems that you have different ideas about > consciousness and anatta than I do. I believe that your thinking on > these matters have been greatly influenced by the Abhidhamma. Since > you want me to explain what I believe as it compares to what you > believe, I am going to have to address these differences. > > The Abhidhamma explains that all dhammas (nama and rupa) are > impermanent, non-self, and suffering. I have some issues with the > suffering characteristic for rupa, but I will leave that for now; > what I believe that the Abhidhamma leaves out, which is very > important to understanding, is that all dhammas are also impure. > Phenomena are impure, thoughts are impure, the body is impure, etc., > and even empty space is impure. The thing that makes all of this > impure is impermanence, non-self, and suffering. The only thing that > isn't impure is consciousness. ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: We are not in agreement on this matter, James, in several respects. First of all, I don't see this matter as an Abhidhamma-versus-the-rest issue at all. Secondly, I don't know what impurity would be except to be infected by defilement, and it is not rupas that are infected by defilement, but mind. There is nothing particularly pure or impure about hardness or sights or sounds etc - they just are what they are. In fact, from the ultimate perspective, what is impure about craving, aversion, and sense of self? They are also simply empty phenomena rolling on. As far as the relative purity of consciousness as compared to rupas - well, it is consciousness that is "defiled," not rupas. The point of the sutta that says "luminous is the mind" is to point out that the defilements are not intrinsic to the mind, and are, thus, removable. ------------------------------------------------ Consciousness is pure; and its purity > is like a light in comparison to the > darkness of the impurity of > samsara. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Consciousness should not be related to samsara. That's just "apples and oranges." Consciousness operating in the presence of defilements, with a repeated "rebirth" of an apparent self grasping onto first one piece of flotsam in the stream and then another piece of jetsam, is called "samsara". Consciousness operating free of any influence of ignorance, craving, and aversion is (consciousness operating in the context of) nibbana. ---------------------------------------------------- If consciousness wasn't pure, Nibbana wouldn't be possible. > > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree with that, but by being "pure," I mean the fact of the defilements being adventitious, and not intrinsic - no more, no less. ------------------------------------------------ > The Abhidhamma describes consciousness in terms of sensory contacts: > eye consciousness, nose consciousness, feeling consciousness, etc. > and that each of these consciousnesses rise and fall. I won't > dispute that, but I don't believe that it presents the entire > picture. There are two levels to consciousness: the pure > consciousness, and the consciousness that because of ignorance has > created a false sense of self. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And consciousnesses of the six types function whether afflicted by reification or not. The removal of defilements doesn't change consciousness into a world soul or some such thing; it merely frees consciousness to operate in its natural manner. ------------------------------------------------ I know that this thinking doesn't > > correspond with the Abhidhamma because the Abhidhamma is interested > in an atomistic view of dhammas: that everything must be broken down > to its smallest independent status. However, consciousness isn't > like that. Consciousness can have a level of impurity, that is > impermanent, non-self, and suffering, and a level of purity, to where > those characteristics don't apply (and I don't mean the opposite, I > mean they just don't apply). > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: James, it seems to me that there is a sense of what you write here that makes consciousness into some pure, substantial, permanent principle on the surface of which occur impermanent, non-self, and unsatisfactory phenomena. While consciousness is an operation that proceeds in a gapless fashion, this picture of it as an underlying pure ocean on the surface of which waves rise and fall, is, in my opinion, a kind of atta view. I think your position on consciousness is somewhat close to "Sati's error". --------------------------------------------------------- > > This is a very complicated subject and I hope you can follow me thus > far. For some support, I want to go to one sutta, "An Analysis of > the Statement": > > The Blessed One said this: "A monk should investigate in such a way > that, his consciousness neither externally scattered &diffused, nor > internally positioned, he would from lack of clinging/sustenance be > unagitated. When -- his consciousness neither externally scattered & > diffused, nor internally positioned -- from lack of > clinging/sustenance he would be unagitated, there is no seed for the > conditions of future birth, aging, death, or stress." > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This refers to the state of non-clinging, the state of an unanchored mind, the state of freedom. It is the way consciousness functions when the defilements are gone. ------------------------------------------------ > > After the Buddha spoke these words, the monks went to Ven. Maha > Kaccana to explain them. He was hesitant to explain but he explained > in part: > > "He doesn't assume consciousness to be the self, or the self as > possessing consciousness, or consciousness as in the self, or the > self as in consciousness. His consciousness changes &is unstable, > but his consciousness doesn't -- because of the change &instability > of consciousness -- alter in accordance with the change in > consciousness. His mind is not consumed with any agitations born from > an alteration in accordance with the change in consciousness or > coming from the co-arising of (unskillful mental) qualities. And > because his awareness is not consumed, he feels neither fearful, > threatened, nor solicitous." > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: IMO, this is a superb sutta, but the part you present here is the least clear, and I believe you have misinterpreted it to take the mind as a kind of immovable atman. My understanding of this bit of material is that it expresses that the change and instability of consciousness does not lead to agitation or fear in a mind that is freed of defilements. --------------------------------------------------- > > Later, the Buddha verified that this was the correct explanation. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn138.html > > From this explanation it is demonstrated that there are in fact two > levels to consciousness. One level can be unstable but the other > level doesn't need to be unstable. I usually refer to the unstable > level as `consciousness' and the stable, pure, luminous level > as `awareness'. But, in actuality, they are two parts of the same > thing. The terms used aren't important. Ken, I would suggest you > read the entire sutta to get a good understanding of what I am > saying. In summary, pure consciousness or pure mind doesn't suggest > a self nor is it dependent on a self. What this is like I don't > know, I don't have pure awareness yet (only glimpses). My > understanding is only theoretical. > > Metta, James > Ps. I may or may not reply to posts depending on certain conditions. > If there is a time when I don't reply, please don't take it > personally. > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27644 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 8:52am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hello RobertK, RobertK: Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view. Michael: This description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, which would be a proper description that would dispel this impression? Is there something in the commentaries to this effect? Metta Michael 27645 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:05am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hello KenH, KenH: However, if it is a form of concentration other than jhana (as it is in modern, popular, traditions), then, no, it is not a part of vipassana development. It is not a method taught by the Buddha.. Michael: I am curious now, can you please provide more details on what would be those popular forms of concentration? You are also saying that jhana is part of the Vipassana movement, have I understood it right? If yes, can you be more specific which/where Vipassana movement? KenH: I'd like to remind you that, in the Tipitaka, some ariyans developed jhana followed by vipassana, some developed vipassana followed by jhana, some developed jhana and vipassana together and some developed vipassana alone (no jhana). Michael: I think it is always good to qualify what comes from the basic scriptures in the Tipitaka from the commentaries. And I presume your conclusions are drawn from the commentaries, right? I am also curious how is jhana and vipassana developed together? I can understand alternating both, or in a sequence, but together, how does that work? Metta Michael 27646 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 10:09am Subject: anapanasati 5 a anapanasati 5 a Explanations about satipatthana by Sarah and Jon: I checked the detail in the Satipatthana Sutta commentary and sub-commentary on the use of sati-sampajanna and quote below from Soma Thera’s translation p.34: ***** "Sampajano = "Clearly comprehending." Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending = Discerning rightly, entirely and equally [samma samantato samañca pajananto]. Rightly = Correctly [aviparitam]. Entirely = By knowing in all ways [sabbakarapajananena]. Equally = By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparupari visesavaha-bhavena pavattiya]. Satima = "Mindful." Endowed with mindfulness that lays hold of the body as a subject of meditation, because this yogavacara (the man conversant with contemplative activity) contemplates with wisdom after laying hold of the object with mindfulness. There is nothing called contemplation without mindfulness. Therefore the Master said: "Mindfulness is necessary in all circumstances, O bhikkhus, I declare."[17] Necessary in all circumstances = Everywhere in the state of becoming, in every sluggish and unbalanced state of mind, it is desirable. Or, that by the help of which the other proper Factors of Enlightenment [bojjhanga] are capable of being developed, is "necessary in all circumstances." Here, contemplation takes place by means of wisdom that is assisted by mindfulness. To point out the things by the influence of which the meditation of the yogi prospers, is the purpose of the words, "Ardent, clearly comprehending, and mindful." " ***** 27647 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: Nutriment condition Hi Howard, I understand completely your point of view, and you are not the only one who thinks in this way. I also heard this from others ;-) ;-) It is good you speak directly, why not. Different angles again, I just sent you something about nutrition, what a coincidence. You may not like it. I am not interested in science at all, only in conditioning factors. Nutritive essence is so small, arising and falling away immediately. It performs its function within a unit of rupas. I have no inclination to compare it with modern science notions of food, these are not helpful to me, only in the kitchen!!! I am just interested in how the study of realities will help me to become detached from the notion of control, I can control. Not only in the Abhidhamma, see Dhammasangani and Patthana, also in Suttanta Nutriment is mentioned: M 9, Discourse on Right Understanding. Four kinds of nutriment: material food, sense impression, volition (manosa~ncetana) and consciousness. Sariputta spoke this sutta (Transl: Ven. Soma):"...Since a disciple of the Pure Ones really knows nutriment, the origin of nutriment, the ceasing of nutriment, he, even to that extent, is a person with right understanding. What is nutriment? For the stability or assistance of beings born or beings seeking birth, four are the kinds of nutriment. What are the four? Material food, coarse or fine, sense-impression (N:contact) is the second, ideational activity [N: volition] is the third, consciousness is the fourth...." Coarse or fine food. Why is this said? Not to give us a scientifical explanation about food. When we read conventional terms we should go straight to reality, otherwise we always miss the essence, the message of the sutta. In the commentary there are more explanations. <...for the material body of beings subsisting on material food such food is a particular condition...> Do you see this: conditions are explained. And: This refers to the group of eight inseparable rupas: the four elements, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. In D 33, also these four kinds of nutriment are mentioned, and also in other suttas. Nutrition is one of the four factors that produce rupa, the others being kamma, citta and heat. Nutriment-condition is among the twentyfour classes of conditions of the Patthana. We read in the ³Guide to Conditional Relations²(U Narada): This brings us to the goal of the teachings. The more you see the intricacy of conditions the less will you believe in a self who controls. Only phenomena rolling on by their own conditions. When examples are given of coarse and fine food, there is no need to stumble over these. We have to go to the essence. Nutrition-condition is very important and we also have to remember as mentioned the three immaterial kinds of nutrition. You ask me whether I think it is a reality? Yes, yes, but I do not claim to be able to pinpoint it and sift it out in a unit of rupas. I find all that is taught in the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, very reasonable, and more than that: precious, beneficial, worthy of study and reflection. Here I remember patient acquiescence I quoted from B.B. Do you have more pet peeves that prevent you from the study of the Abhidhamma? It is better to have it all out. Nina. op 03-12-2003 16:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Nina, in this post I touch on one of my "pet peeves" with regard to > Abhidhamma. In itself, it isn't a topic of major importance, but it points to > what I see as a more important issue - the taking of prescientific, > conventional > notions and turning them into alleged "realities". 27648 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. thread Hi Larry, Do you have any suggestions for me? There is no co. to 38-42. Then I skipped the footnotes 16- 22, which are actually from the tiika. Because I find it too long, about theories of others, and I rather pay attention to what I see as more relevant. Therefore, as I said, I am with the eye, Vis. 47. My intentions: I cannot translate all, too difficult for me. I have no help! Choosing what I can do, skipping sentences that make no sense to me, difficult grammar and unlisted words. Since nobody said that he/she likes me to list Pali words with the transl. I shall not do this, because it is time consuming. But I am listening to your suggestions, Larry. After 47, one line 48, one line on 49 (ear), then no co until 53: antsheap, then 54, after that there is Co to 58, feminity faculty, but this is in the footnote of Vis text, easy for me. I think I take it all together with the Pali. Nina. op 03-12-2003 23:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Where are you in the translations of the Vism. commentary and what are > your intentions? 27649 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 10:17am Subject: Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James (and Ken) - ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > We are not in agreement on this matter, James, in several respects. Hi Howard, Hehehe…okay! Calm down! ;-) I didn't expect for you to agree with me as I have read in some of your posts that you do not believe in a larger consciousness. I am not making it an Abhidhamma-versus-the- rest, this is just my take, at this moment in time, based on what I know. I am comfortable with this mental construct for the time being until such time as I realize more. Until a Buddha appears before me and tells me what is what, I reserve the right to think what I want (though I highly respect you, you are not a Buddha). Small notes: I don't mean impure in the way you think; I don't mean pure awareness in the way you think. (I won't elaborate because I don't want to debate.) And if you feel I have misinterpreted the sutta, feel free to explain its real meaning to me. Take care. Metta, James 27650 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nutriment condition Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/4/03 1:12:49 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I understand completely your point of view, and you are not the only one who > thinks in this way. I also heard this from others ;-) ;-) It is good you > speak directly, why not. > Different angles again, I just sent you something about nutrition, what a > coincidence. You may not like it. > I am not interested in science at all, only in conditioning factors. > Nutritive essence is so small, arising and falling away immediately. It > performs its function within a unit of rupas. I have no inclination to > compare it with modern science notions of food, these are not helpful to me, > only in the kitchen!!! I am just interested in how the study of realities > will help me to become detached from the notion of control, I can control. > Not only in the Abhidhamma, see Dhammasangani and Patthana, also in Suttanta > Nutriment is mentioned: M 9, Discourse on Right Understanding. Four kinds of > nutriment: material food, sense impression, volition (manosa~ncetana) and > consciousness. > Sariputta spoke this sutta (Transl: Ven. Soma):"...Since a disciple of the > Pure Ones really knows nutriment, the origin of nutriment, the ceasing of > nutriment, he, even to that extent, is a person with right understanding. > What is nutriment? For the stability or assistance of beings born or beings > seeking birth, four are the kinds of nutriment. What are the four? > Material food, coarse or fine, sense-impression (N:contact) is the second, > ideational activity [N: volition] is the third, consciousness is the > fourth...." > > > You ask me whether I think it is a reality? Yes, yes, but I do not claim to > be able to pinpoint it and sift it out in a unit of rupas. I find all that > is taught in the Tipitaka, Abhidhamma included, very reasonable, and more > than that: precious, beneficial, worthy of study and reflection. Here I > remember patient acquiescence I quoted from B.B. > ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: I thank you for all the details, Nina. To me, the sutta references all treat 'nutriment' as simply a very general conventional term that lumps together a number of different conventional things that serve as a sort of "sustenance" for other things. Making of it into a hard-to-pinpoint, hard-to-sift-out "ultimate reality" is simply an exercise in unnecessary scholasticism, IMO. (Sorry. ;-) ------------------------------------------------------ > Do you have more pet peeves that prevent you from the study of the > Abhidhamma? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: My "pet peeves" don't prevent me from studying Abhidhamma. I do study it, and do gain from that study, but I don't study it as deeply, seriously, or with the same enthousiasm as you and others here. Oh, yes, "life principle" is another pet peeve of mine. I think it is a piece of primitive nonsense probably growing out of the experience of people who frequently got to see the moment of death of others without the "shielding" often provided by modern day hospitals and hospices. I see jivitindriya (sp?) as another presumed but never observed hidden something that there is no reason to believe in. -------------------------------------------------- It is better to have it all out.> > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, we're getting there! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- Nina. > > op 03-12-2003 16:37 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > > Nina, in this post I touch on one of my "pet peeves" with regard to > >Abhidhamma. In itself, it isn't a topic of major importance, but it points > to > >what I see as a more important issue - the taking of prescientific, > >conventional > >notions and turning them into alleged "realities". > > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27651 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:42am Subject: Magnificent Wallpaper Hi, all - I am currently using the picture to be found at the following address as wallpaper: http://www.concentration.org/moon.jpg I think it is magnificent! Enjoy. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27652 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 0:46pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Michael, Hope you don't mind if another "Rob" butts in here... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > RobertK: > Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie > dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where > they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view. > > Michael: > This description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not > subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, which would > be a proper description that would dispel this impression? Is there > something in the commentaries to this effect? I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for more information. If this additional perspective confuses rather than clarifies, I apologize. Metta, Rob M :-) 27653 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 1:06pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Dear RobertK, RobM, and all, It sits better with my idea of justice and fairness that anyone involved in the killing of beings should have consequences - and the level of intention should make a difference to the consequences. I understand that belief (or not) in kamma will probably affect future behaviour, but it doesn't affect the consequences of an already performed action. Intention does/should. If my loved one was killed by a ragingly angry person filled with spite and hate, or by someone unknowingly backing a truck over them, I will be just as grief stricken, they are just as dead. But the intent of the actor is different. If it doesn't depend entirely on the mind state of the actor, and it depends on the result - how is it that unknowingly stepping on ants doesn't break the precept? The ants are not individually known, and their death is a secondary side effect of walking. I wonder how giving an order to fly on a bombing mission to destroy a water reticulation plant which results in the death of beings who are not individually known or intended as victims (i.e. a secondary side effect) is different to that. With regard to meat eating - ordering/buying meat from the butcher - the result of each order is death of a being at a later time, even though the identity of particular individual beings aren't known in advance. Now that I think it over, the buying of meat from a butcher seems hard to justify. The Buddha didn't ask for, order, or pay money for meat - but we do ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > -Dear RobM and Christine, > The texts are very specific that the one who performs any misdeed > kills with ignorance of the results of kamma makes worse kamma than > someone who has any understanding about kamma.In the commentaries > they give the example of the baby who > reaches out for a hot pot on a stove. They are completely ignorant > of the danger and so burn themselves badly. The adult takes hold of > the same pot, but very gingerly moving it quickly. They feel the > heat but don't get burned much, if at all. > Say someone is poor and makes a living as a hunter supporting his > family in this way. But he knows it is akusala, so as soon as > another opportunity arises he gives up that action and never kills > again. On the other hand, the person ignorant of Dhamma might even > do hunting as a sport, enjoying the killing, and looking for any > chance to go hunting. Hunting is always akusala but we see how the > ignorant one is in the more dangerous position. > In the case of the flightnavigator who fires off the missile > resulting in the death of many beings, but who feels pleasure this > is rooted in moha of a very high degree. Killing at a distance is > still killing according to the scriptures and so is ordering another > to kill. So in fact the kamma of that act of killing will give its > unpleasant results to many: the one who pushed the button certainly; > and also his commander and probably even the person who ordered the > soldiers to fight in the first place. It is one of the reasons that > being the ruler of a country is seen as such grave and duty in the > Buddhist texts. > ================ > "robmoult" > My opinion is, Yes, the killer of the > wasp conditions more bad kamma > > for himself than the flight navigator. > ======= > In fact killing a human is considered more serious than killing an > animal or insect in the Buddhist texts. > ============== > rob.moult@j...>The flight navigator INDIRECTLY caused tens of > thousands to die; in > > the same way, my dinner last night INDIRECTLY caused a chicken to > be > > killed. According to Theravada, I am not guilty of breaking the > > first precept by eating meat. Extending the same argument, the > > flight navigator is also not guilty of breaking the first precept. > ========== > As I said above killing at a distance is not an excuse in Buddhism, > thus the airman certainly killed. Do you believe the buddha and > arahants were indirect killers when they ate meat or fish? > > RobertK > 27654 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 1:57pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > It sits better with my idea of justice and fairness that anyone > involved in the killing of beings should have consequences - and the > level of intention should make a difference to the consequences. I > understand that belief (or not) in kamma will probably affect future > behaviour, but it doesn't affect the consequences of an already > performed action. Intention does/should. If my loved one was killed > by a ragingly angry person filled with spite and hate, or by someone > unknowingly backing a truck over them, I will be just as grief > stricken, they are just as dead. But the intent of the actor is > different. > If it doesn't depend entirely on the mind state of the actor, and it > depends on the result - how is it that unknowingly stepping on ants > doesn't break the precept? The ants are not individually known, and > their death is a secondary side effect of walking. I wonder how > giving an order to fly on a bombing mission to destroy a water > reticulation plant which results in the death of beings who are not > individually known or intended as victims (i.e. a secondary side > effect) is different to that. ===== Christianity talks of "justice and fairness" with God making judgements and handing out rewards / punishments. These concepts are deeply ingrained in our psyche and our social systems. Buddhism talks of natural laws (laws of nature); no judgements. It does not make sense to say that it is "right" or "wrong" for an object to fall; the law of gravity is absolute. The natural law of kamma is also absolute (no "judgement" involved). When a javana citta arises, the cetana (volition) cetasika creates the potential for a future vipaka citta and kamma-born rupa. The nature of the future vipaka depends on the nature of the javana citta. When the blind monk unknowingly stepped on insects, some other monks complained to the Buddha but the Buddha said that the blind monk was innocent of killing as there had been no intention to kill (the fact that there was consequential death was not an issue). Knowledge of kamma will impact the strength of cetana. When a person who knows the law of kamma does an unwholesome thing, fully aware of the law of kamma, the strength of the volition will be weaker than if the same person did the same action without any awareness of the law of kamma. I recently read a line somewhere that has really stuck with me (and has found its way into a number of my posts): "Modern society focuses on the external; the law of kamma focuses on the internal." Christine, I understand your feeling that an intentional act of murder vs. the accidential backing of a truck both result in death and therefore are of a similar nature (same result), but that is not the view of Buddhism. In our social system, we call murder "1st degree" and we call accidential death "2nd degree" (at least that is how it is labeled in the US TV shows). We have judges to make a judgement as to the "degree". ===== > > With regard to meat eating - ordering/buying meat from the butcher - > the result of each order is death of a being at a later time, even > though the identity of particular individual beings aren't known in > advance. Now that I think it over, the buying of meat from a butcher > seems hard to justify. The Buddha didn't ask for, order, or pay money > for meat - but we do ... ===== Buddhism doesn't buy into INDIRECT consequences. Eating meat is an act of eating, not an act of killing. Buying meat is an act of buying, not an act of killing. The butcher who slaughters the animals is guilty of killing; the person who pays the butcher for the meat and the person who eats the meat are not guilty of killing. On the other hand, the person who goes into a live seafood restaurant and says, "I want to eat that particular fish..." is guilty of "killing at a distance". Metta, Rob M :-) 27655 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 2:21pm Subject: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, A person meticulously plans and executes a murder because of hatred. A person is a hired killer. A person kills as a momentary crime of passion (i.e. he finds his wife's lover). A person kills in self defence. A person kills by accidently backing a truck. A person kills because it is their job to execute condemned prisoners. A person kills because they are a soldier and face an enemy on the field of battle. A person kills because they are a judge and the law of the land requires capital punishement be given out for certain offences. In all eight cases listed above, there is a dead body at the end of the day. In modern society, some of these people are called "bad", some are "neutral" (doing their job) and the soldier may even be labeled as a "hero". "Justice and fairness" is a social concept that creates a lot of confusion (that is why we have "judges" to make "judgements"). The Buddhist definition of akusala kamma patha, killing has five constituent factors: - A living being - Knowledge that there is a living being - Desire to kill - Effort to kill - Consequential death The Buddhist approach makes a lot more sense to me. In fact, my opinion has no relevance here... kamma is a law of nature, like gravity. It doesn't matter if I believe in gravity, accept gravity or "if gravity makes sense to me"... gravity just IS. Metta, Rob M :-) 27656 From: nordwest Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Holy Relics of Lord Buddha Dear Herman, thank you for your letter. I am glad you like the site. I believe in free speech, so you don't need my permission, and I apologize for my harsh words to "forbid" talking about it. That was a mistake. I understand you concerns in the context of attachment. Gassho, Thomas Egberdina wrote: Hi Thomas, We have not typed to each other before. I have enjoyed browsing through the wide range material you have posted previously. I am asking your permission to discuss this current post of yours in the context of attachment. I cannot say whether I am a Buddhist or not. No harm done either way. All the best Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear sangha, > > The Lord Buddha's Holy Relics - a collection the most holy objects of Buddhism 27657 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism thread and Rupas Hi Sarah, If anyone had an interest in bringing in additional material that would certainly be welcome, but the thread is moving so slowly I fear it is in danger of becoming extinct if we have even more distractions. The ideal scenario would be if everyone dropped all other threads and focused only on this one. That way we could have a nice systematic discussion on everything in due order. Larry ------------------------ Sarah: As we're proceeding slowly with this difficult text, I have an idea for your consideration. Given the recent passages on primary and derived rupas and Howard's questions about groups of rupas etc, would it be helpful to also post Nina's excellent book on 'Rupas' (on-line, but not published) in extracts for support and clarification? It is full of good quotes, mostly from the suttas but also from other texts and I think it shows how the Abhidhamma 'take' on these is no different from that in the suttas. It's quite a small book. 27658 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. thread Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Since nobody said that he/she > likes me > to list Pali words with the transl. I shall not do this, because it is > time > consuming. .... I think I misunderstood your other comments, so others may have too. Pls list or explain any key words with the transl. This is always very helpful. Whatever you have time and inclination for. Have to dash. Metta, Sarah ======== 27659 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 3:53pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. thread Nina: "Hi Larry, Do you have any suggestions for me?" Hi Nina, My only suggestion is that you need to tell me when to stop and then when to resume. I can't tell what needs to be translated or what is left to translate. I agree there is a lot of material that doesn't need to be translated. I would like to pick up the pace unless we run into some point that merits a more extensive analysis. But I think we need to stay together. So if you see something that should be translated then we stop. Okay? Larry 27660 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 4:19pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine and everyone, This post isn't "aimed" at you in particular, but is just a general statement about the March Fly discussion. It is clear that there are lots of basic presuppositions, and I just want to challenge some of them. That seems to be what I do best :-) We talk about beings. Fair enough. At the level of beings, there are beings. We call them living beings. But that is not half the story. Beings are always living-dying beings. To live is to die. To take a snapshot of a living being is all good and well, but even under the most safe and nurturing conditions, all living beings die. To view a life as precious, whether it be a baby or a fly, must entail viewing it's death as precious. They are inseperable. As a consequence of selecting only the bit we like, we are constantly very actively repressing any awareness of the cyclical nature of life/death. I think all of us would aspire to a state of goodwill amongst all beings, but the reality is that the life of beings always takes the death of other beings as nutriment, so to speak. Life conditions death, and death conditions life. We talk about individual beings. Yet an individual never comes about on its own. There are no "higher order" beings that did not require the coming together of at least two other beings. We can conceive of individual beings, but no being can exist on its own. We talk about food chains, they are nothing more than life/death chains. Life/death is very complexly interwoven. We talk about individual beings, but we know that the bodies of beings are in a constant process of dying/regenerating. Take me, for example. Even as I write this, literally hundreds of thousands of body cells are dying, and a similar number are coming into being. There are millions of cells in my body, whose only function is to hunt out other cells and devour them. You recently wrote about samsara-ing, which I liked very much. In the context of the march fly, seeing it as a seperate living being only is samsara-ing. Seeing your own body as a seperate living being only is samsara-ing. The urge to defend or to attack comes from one source, and that is the belief of seperateness, me against the world, my life against death. I hate flies. Peace Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear RobertK, RobM, and all, > > It sits better with my idea of justice and fairness that anyone > involved in the killing of beings should have consequences - and 27661 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi, James - In a message dated 12/4/03 1:20:57 PM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Hi, James (and Ken) - > ---------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > We are not in agreement on this matter, James, in several > respects. > > > Hi Howard, > > Hehehe…okay! Calm down! ;-) I didn't expect for you to agree with > me as I have read in some of your posts that you do not believe in a > larger consciousness. I am not making it an Abhidhamma-versus-the- > rest, this is just my take, at this moment in time, based on what I > know. I am comfortable with this mental construct for the time being > until such time as I realize more. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: Hey, whatever works at any given time! ;-) ---------------------------------------- Until a Buddha appears before me > > and tells me what is what, I reserve the right to think what I want > (though I highly respect you, you are not a Buddha). ----------------------------------------- Howard: ;-)) Well, you sure got *that* right!! ---------------------------------------- Small notes: I > > don't mean impure in the way you think; I don't mean pure awareness > in the way you think. (I won't elaborate because I don't want to > debate.) > --------------------------------------- Howard: That's fine. -------------------------------------- And if you feel I have misinterpreted the sutta, feel free > > to explain its real meaning to me. -------------------------------------- Howard: As soon as I really know (several millenia from now, Nina ;-)), I'll do that! -------------------------------------- Take care.> > ------------------------------------ Howard: You, too. :-) ----------------------------------- > Metta, James > > ================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27662 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 4:59pm Subject: Vism.XIV 46 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 46. Now among these [sensitivities thus] possessed of difference due to difference of kamma, the eye and the ear apprehend non-contiguous objective fields, since consciousness is caused even if the supporting [primaries] of the objective fields do not adhere to the [faculties'] own supporting primaries.22 The nose, tongue and body apprehend contiguous objective fields, because consciousness is caused only if their objective fields' [primaries] adhere to their own supporting [primaries], [that is to say, if the objective fields' primaries adhere] as support [in the case of odours and flavours], and themselves [directly in the case of tangible data, which are identical with the three primaries excluding water]. --------------------- Note 22. See also par. 134 and notes 60, 61. The amplification in this paragraph is from Pm., which continues: 'There is another method: the eye and the ear have non-contiguous objective fields because arising of consciousness is caused while their objective fields are separated by an interval and apart (adhika). Some say that the ear has a contiguous objective field. If it did, then sound born of consciousness would not be the object of ear-consciousness, for there is no arising externally of what is consciousness-originated. And in the texts sound as object is spoken of as being the object of ear-consciousness without making any distinction. Besides, there would be no defining the direction and position of the sound because it would then have to be apprehended in the place occupied by the possessor of the objective field, as happens in the case of an odour. Consequently it remains in the same place where it arose, if it comes into focus in the ear avenue (so the Burmese ed.). Are not the sounds of washermen [beating their washing on stones] heard later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a difference in the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it becomes evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. For just as, because of difference in the way of apprehending the sound of words according to the way in which it becomes evident to one at a distance and to one nearby, there comes to be [respectively] not apprehending, and apprehending, of the differences in the syllables, so also, when the sound of washermen (a) becomes [an occurrence] that is evident throughout from beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence that is evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at a distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and definition, which occur later in the cognitive series of ear-consciousness, that there comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) "Heard faintly is heard later". But that sound comes into the ear's focus at the moment of its own existence and in dependence on the place where it arises (see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA. 313). If there is absolutely no successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47). 27663 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 5:01pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hello RobM, RobM: I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for more information. Michael: Yes, this would make more sense to me. But is this taken from the commentaries or is it your own conclusion? Metta Michael 27664 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 5:19pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello RobM & Christine, RobM: The natural law of kamma is also absolute (no "judgement" involved). When a javana citta arises, the cetana (volition) cetasika creates the potential for a future vipaka citta and kamma-born rupa. The nature of the future vipaka depends on the nature of the javana citta. When the blind monk unknowingly stepped on insects, some other monks complained to the Buddha but the Buddha said that the blind monk was innocent of killing as there had been no intention to kill (the fact that there was consequential death was not an issue). Michael: I have been following this thread with great interest and although I fully agree with what you say, there is something still nagging me and I cannot put a finger on it. I think it is unreasonable to assume that only the mental state of the being who commits the action has a bearing on kamma and that the degree of harm caused by the action on others has no bearing on kamma. The only thing that comes to my mind is the interconnection of everything in samsara but at this stage I really don’t know how to elaborate this further. Also comes to mind the advice of the Buddha to his son to consider any action before, during and after performing it, if it caused any affliction to himself or others. If only his mental state would be the crucial element I guess his advice would be rather different. Metta Michael 27665 From: Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 46 Hi all, I take this to mean eye and ear consciousness can apprehend objects at a distance but nose, taste, and touch consciousness cannot. [I wonder about nose??] I assume sound and visible object travel from the distant place to their respective organs by means of "death" and "rebirth" (in a slightly different place) of the sound and visible object rupas. Having non-contiguous objects does not rule out contact (phassa). Larry -------------------------- The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 46. Now among these [sensitivities thus] possessed of difference due to difference of kamma, the eye and the ear apprehend non-contiguous objective fields, since consciousness is caused even if the supporting [primaries] of the objective fields do not adhere to the [faculties'] own supporting primaries.22 The nose, tongue and body apprehend contiguous objective fields, because consciousness is caused only if their objective fields' [primaries] adhere to their own supporting [primaries], [that is to say, if the objective fields' primaries adhere] as support [in the case of odours and flavours], and themselves [directly in the case of tangible data, which are identical with the three primaries excluding water]. 27666 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 6:55pm Subject: Re: Anusaya Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > RobM: > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for > more information. > > Michael: > Yes, this would make more sense to me. But is this taken from the > commentaries or is it your own conclusion? As far as I know, the term "pakatupanissaya" only arises in the Patthana. Only one third of the Patthana has been translated into English and that one third is extremely long and has a bizzare way of organizing the material; for example, you won't find a section titled "pakatupanissaya". In brief, I can't quote a specific text that says, "anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support condition". However, I would defend this position as making logic sense after studying the concepts of anusaya and pakatupanissaya. Metta, Rob M :-) 27667 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:08pm Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hello Michael, I was holding court on the evils of popular Buddhist meditation :-) Your response was: ----------- > I am curious now, can you please provide more details on what would be those popular forms of concentration? ------------ KH: Consider the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas; These utterly profound teachings are, today, interpreted in a way that renders them banal and worthless. By heeding the ancient commentaries, we can avoid such terrible misinterpretation: When the Buddha spoke of 'mindfulness while walking,' he did not mean the kind of mindfulness we share with lesser beings: When dogs and jackals walk, they know they are walking; Also, a baby at the breast knows pleasant feeling. We should not slander the Buddha by suggesting that these commonplace forms of mindfulness [of body and feeling] are the same as his unique, profound teaching: satipatthana. ---------------- MK: > You are also saying that jhana is part of the Vipassana movement, have I understood it right? If yes, can you be more specific which/where Vipassana movement? ----------------- Sorry Michael, we are on different wavelengths here. I made no reference to "Vipassana movement." Did you think I was referring to the Goenka group? ----------------- KenH: > > I'd like to remind you that, in the Tipitaka, some ariyans developed jhana followed by vipassana, some developed vipassana followed by jhana, some developed jhana and vipassana together and some developed vipassana alone (no jhana). Michael: > I think it is always good to qualify what comes from the basic scriptures in the Tipitaka from the commentaries. And I presume your conclusions are drawn from the commentaries, right? ----------------- Not this time. I was thinking of certain suttas quoted by Nina in message # 12371. I would be good to have your comments on that message if you wouldn't mind. ---------------- MB : > I am also curious how is jhana and vipassana developed together? I can understand alternating both, or in a sequence, but together, how does that work? --------------- I don't specifically remember the explanation of this. In anapanasati, the object of consciousness is not a concept of breath (e.g., the movement of the abdomen), it is the actual rupa -- the paramattha dhamma -- that is conventionally known as breath. As you know, vipassana (satipatthana), also has a paramattha dhamma as object. If jhana and vipassana could possibly share one and the same object, then they might well be said to be developed together. That is, if they could have, not only the same type of object (rupa), but the same actual rupa. I think this is exactly what happens in anapana-sati (the most difficult of all practices). Being able to enter and leave jhana at will, and being able to enter and leave satipatthana at will, the meditator is able to make one rupa the object of both jhana consciousness and [the immediately following] vipassana consciousness. Corrections welcome. Kind regards, Ken H 27668 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 7:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello RobM & Christine, > > RobM: > The natural law of kamma is also absolute (no "judgement" involved). > When a javana citta arises, the cetana (volition) cetasika creates > the potential for a future vipaka citta and kamma-born rupa. The > nature of the future vipaka depends on the nature of the javana > citta. > > When the blind monk unknowingly stepped on insects, some other monks > complained to the Buddha but the Buddha said that the blind monk was > innocent of killing as there had been no intention to kill (the fact > that there was consequential death was not an issue). > > > Michael: > I have been following this thread with great interest and although I fully > agree with what you say, there is something still nagging me and I cannot > put a finger on it. I think it is unreasonable to assume that only the > mental state of the being who commits the action has a bearing on kamma and > that the degree of harm caused by the action on others has no bearing on > kamma. The only thing that comes to my mind is the interconnection of > everything in samsara but at this stage I really don't know how to elaborate > this further. Also comes to mind the advice of the Buddha to his son to > consider any action before, during and after performing it, if it caused any > affliction to himself or others. If only his mental state would be the > crucial element I guess his advice would be rather different. According to the Patthana, the conditioning state for kamma condition is the cetana cetasika arising in the 33 kamma-producing cittas. Moving "backwards", what conditions the cetana cetasika? The answer is "strong past citta/cetasika, strong past rupa, strong past concepts" through pakatupanissaya. See my message 26956 for details where I wrote: It is natural decisive support that "decides" how strong the cetana will be and therefore the weightiness of the resulting kamma. I believe that this is why the Buddha gave that specific advice to Rahula. Here is a similar snip from my 26956 post: An understanding of how this law of nature called natural decisive support works can be a condition for the creation of kusala kamma: - We should look for opportunities to perform wholesome deeds. This searching for and planning a wholesome deed is, in itself, a wholesome deed. We should ensure that all wholesome deeds are done with strong volition, mindfulness and clear intention. We should review and rejoice in wholesome deeds performed and share the merits of our actions. Each of these activities creates good kamma and good accumulations; a condition to support the performing of more good deeds in the future. Metta, Rob M :-) 27669 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit Hi Howard, as I wrote to Michael, in the suttas we find : four pairs of men. In the abh: the lokuttara cittas are enumerated as eight four maggacittas and four phalacittas. The meaning is the same. Nina. op 04-12-2003 04:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Is there anywhere in the suttas mention of path and > fruit consciousness, or do they only appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and the > commentaries? 27670 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Hi Michael, I read it differently: such mighty beings as stream-winners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry: to realize the fruit of stream-entry, they have realized the path-consciousness and this is immediately followed by the fruition-consciousness. In separating these two, we have eight pairs. I think that is the point. Since it is Udana we can look up Peter Masefield transl. I have not yet. Yes, I have, Ch on Sona, II, p. 774: Thus all of these are ariyans. The incomparable field of merit for the world, this is said of enlightened ones you give gifts to. Nina. op 03-12-2003 20:07 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > Michael: > From the two suttas below it is possible to verify that not all of them have > to be enlightened to be a member of that assembly. In fact of the eight > individual types described below, which comprise the assembly worthy of > gifts, etc., only one type is fully enlightened, while the one practicing to > realize the fruit of stream entry has no realization whatsoever. > > The Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples who have practiced well... who > have practiced straight-forwardly... who have practiced methodically... who > have practiced masterfully -- in other words, the four types [of noble > disciples] when taken as pairs, the eight when taken as individual types -- > they are the Sangha of the Blessed One's disciples: worthy of gifts, worthy > of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of respect, the incomparable > field of merit for the world." AN XI.12 > > The Eight taken as Individual Types: > Just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as whales, > whale-eaters, and whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nagas, and gandhabbas, and > there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three > hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this > Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; Arahants and > those practicing for Arahantship... This is the eighth amazing and > astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline." Ud V5 27671 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Michael, My study in Thai speaks also about eradication of them sucessively. But I am still in the beginning of my study. Nina. op 04-12-2003 17:52 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > his description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not > subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, which would > be a proper description that would dispel this impression? Is there > something in the commentaries to this effect? 27672 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:28pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > The texts are very specific that the one who performs any misdeed > > kills with ignorance of the results of kamma makes worse kamma > than > > someone who has any understanding about kamma. > > > > ===== > > Agreed - one who fulfills all five conditions of killing without a > knowledge of kamma creates a more weighty result than one who > fulfills all five conditons of killing with a knowledge of kamma. > > My interpretation of Christine's flight navigator is that there is > no intention to kill; killing happens as an indirect consequence of > the navigator's actions. This is why I gave the example of eating > meat as not breaking the first precept. > > ===== > ===== > > In Christine's example, the navigator is simply doing calculations > to navigate the jet to avoid anti-aircraft fire, the navigator is > not launching the bombs. > _________ Dear RoBM , Ah ha that would explain your earlier comments. Christine said"@They may have a feeling of camaraderie with other colleagues in the plane and the ground crew - hi fives all round ... no hate, no anger. No great physical effort needed - except enjoyable mental concentration and the merest press of a button", so she was apparently referring to the guy on board the plane who pushes the button firing the missiles. ______Robk > To take my point to the extreme, consider the person who cut down > the tree which was used to make the paper upon which the navigator > did his calculations to guide the jet; is this tree-cutter going to > suffer the unwholesome kamma of killing thousands of people? > > If we are discussing the kammic result of the person who releases > the bomb, knowing full well that the bomb will kill, yet still > taking joy in a job well done, then I agree with your comments about > killing at a distance and the kammic weight of actions performed > without a knowledge of kamma. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27673 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 9:37pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Rob K, So let's blame Christine for creating this misunderstanding between us :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Metta to you too, Christine :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > > > > In Christine's example, the navigator is simply doing calculations > > to navigate the jet to avoid anti-aircraft fire, the navigator is > > not launching the bombs. > > _________ > > Dear RoBM , > Ah ha that would explain your earlier comments. Christine said"@They > may have a feeling > of camaraderie with other colleagues in the plane and the ground > crew - hi fives all round ... no hate, no anger. No great physical > effort needed - except enjoyable mental concentration and the merest > press of a button", > so she was apparently referring to the guy on board the plane who > pushes the button firing the missiles. 27674 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 10:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi RobM & Michael (Herman in p.s.), --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Michael, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > RobM: > > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for > > more information. > > > > Michael: > > Yes, this would make more sense to me. But is this taken from the > > commentaries or is it your own conclusion? ..... RobM, I’m not sure about your phrase above, but I meant to point out this passage from a recent post (by Larry) on the Vism thread. This note (just a part of it) is taken from the commentary to the Vism and given at the end of the Nanamoli translation: Notes: 14. <...> 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, contrives, acting as ***decisive-support***, the specific divisions in the kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. <...>’(Pm. 444). ***** Also, there are many references in the Vism to anusaya (latent tendencies). For example, still on craving as anusaya: Vism XV1, 64 “..Of that same craving: of that craving which, it was said, ‘produces further becoming’, and which was classed as ‘craving for sense desires’ and so on...........eradication of inherent tendencies (anusaya).” Metta, Sarah p.s Herman, Vism chXV1, 67f, lots of Qs on Nibbana which I think you'd appreciate. The first one: Qu 1: "Is nibbana non-existent because it is unapprehendable, like the hare's horn?" One more: Qu 3: "Then is the absence of present [aggregates] as well nibbana?" Lots more. If you don't have the text, we can share them with you plus the answers. Same qus then and now. ================================ 27675 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 11:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly Hi Andrew & All, --- Andrew wrote: > It's a good idea but I can't remember ever seeing KenH (the main fly > target) wearing a hat. Also, as his post discloses, they were > attacking his heel! .... I’ve a good mind to start a fund for hats and socks, preferably with corks too;-) Instead of just the still, fly-attracting, fire-gazing meditation, you could lead a legs up dynamic version. Shake your right leg in, shake your right leg out...that kind of thing. ..... A: > In nama terms, what is "intending to kill"? Is it the universal > cetasika, cetana (volition)? As Christine and RobM have been > discussing, when we conventionally talk about "killing something", > this is a concept that may take seconds, minutes or even hours > (depending on what we are trying to kill - see George Orwell's famous > essay about "Killing an Elephant" in Burma). ..... Exactly so. Whether we’re talking about fly dances or acts of killing we tend to forget there are no people, no flies, no elephants, no perpetrator, no victim. We often quote expressions from the texts, like the one from the Visuddhimagga about ‘Life, person, pleasure, pain’ flicking by in ‘one conscious moment’ but forget there is only one conscious moment, one citta ever. Even when we talk about ‘intending to kill’, there are many different cittas and cetasikas (mental factors) involved. Now there is no intention to kill, so it’s just thinking about it. It can be thinking with attachment, aversion, regret, wrong view or anything else. Most precious of all is any present understanding and awareness which knows and is detached from the thinking or seeing or hearing now. Without the development of this understanding, there will always be an idea that there are flies and people, someone or something that dies, me, my family and so on. In other words, without the development of understanding or vijja (knowledge) there will be more and more avijja (ignorance). It is only by understanding the paramattha dhammas that the first noble truth of dukkha can be understood. ‘One conscious moment that flicks by’, one experience at a time, whether pleasant or unpleasant, it arises and is completely gone, it’s dukkha. .... A: >This time covers an > awful lot of 17-set mind-moments. As the overall intention is to > kill, must all the cittas in the time span be akusala (due > to "killing" cetana)? As you can see, I am still having difficulty > switching to mind-moment thinking from conventional thinking. The > root of what I am asking is - if I had killed that march fly, could I > have experienced some kusala cittas (karuna?) while "doing it" > (conventional mode of expression)? .... RobertK already answered, I think. We can test it out now as we read or write. Anger, compassion, kindness, seeing, hearing, touching and all other dhammas arise and pass away, ‘are all alike, gone never to return’. When we wonder whether there could have been some compassion or other wholesome qualities, then of course, anything’s possible. But what about now, is there any clinging to self as we wish to have more noble qualities or cling to past noble moments? In the end, whether it’s ‘my’ compassion, ‘yours’ or the ‘fly’s’ or ‘elephant’s’ it’s just a mental factor that arises and falls away. Hatred is hatred, metta is metta, seeing is seeing - no self at all that sees, hates or develops metta. ..... S:> > Like the point you made about the raft, there can be clinging to > anything > > - even to following good sila or to developing wisdom. > A:> ...which makes akusala what would otherwise be kusala? .... Which makes different cittas with accompanying factors arise and pass away very quickly according to different conditions. .... A: > Thanks Sarah > I will keep trying. Am doing work for a Swedish publisher at the > moment and we are in the editor's panic phase, so there is lots to do > here. .... Just as well you like action;-) Always good to see you around, Andrew. I’ve rambled on far more than I intended (mostly reflections to myself, partly prompted by a tape I was listening to earlier;-)). Of course, it’s not the words or language that count, as James always reminds us, but the direct understanding of the dhammas. I hope we also get to Noosa before too, too long;-) Metta, Sarah =================== 27676 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Thu Dec 4, 2003 11:55pm Subject: Dhamma Got this question from a friend recently: What is Dhamma? You ask this question to Ajarn Sujin. I can not remember what her answers are. An answer: Dhamma is an absolute reality, it is something that is real. For example, you are seeing these letters right now. If somebody tells you that you are not seeing, is that true or false? Seeing is a reality. The Buddha teaches about realities (dhamma) and teaches about their impermanence, suffering, and anattaness. When we learn what is truly real, then we can begin to understand ourselves and become less disillusioned by our own misconceptions about the worlds. There are something that we mis-conceive about the worlds, and we can only get rid of the misconception by learning more and more about the (true) realities (dhamma). Dhamma, as an absolute reality, is directly experienced without us thinking about it. Heat is a dhamma, and heat can be experienced by everybody: us, a new-born baby, and animals. Other examples of realities are hardness, vibration, lobha, dosa, and moha. There are other things besides realities that our mind perceive as well: those that are not realities are concepts. For example, a person is a concept. A person cannot be experienced without us thinking about what we see, and what we hear. When you think of me, you form an idea around the realities that were experienced: what you saw, and what you heard. Ever heard a sound that you couldn't (at least initially) figure out what it was? You heard the sound (reality), and eventually form an idea (concept) about the sound, that it is a person's, an animal's, a car's, etc. All we really hear is a sound, but we create a story about the sound, that it is praise, it is scowling, that it is blame. kom 27677 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly I DID mean that the person plotting the course also pressed the button. It's called multi-skilling - my budget doesn't stretch to a cast of thousands you know. But that's O.K. you chaps - just talk among yourselves, don't mind me, I'm just sitting here tapping my chest with a closed fist and chanting Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa (oops, sorry - past accumulations). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob K, > > So let's blame Christine for creating this misunderstanding between > us :-) :-) > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: Metta to you too, Christine :-) > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" > wrote: > > > > > > In Christine's example, the navigator is simply doing > calculations > > > to navigate the jet to avoid anti-aircraft fire, the navigator > is > > > not launching the bombs. > > > _________ > > > > Dear RoBM , > > Ah ha that would explain your earlier comments. Christine > said"@They > > may have a feeling > > of camaraderie with other colleagues in the plane and the ground > > crew - hi fives all round ... no hate, no anger. No great physical > > effort needed - except enjoyable mental concentration and the > merest > > press of a button", > > so she was apparently referring to the guy on board the plane who > > pushes the button firing the missiles. 27678 From: robmoult Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:06am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine / Rob K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I DID mean that the person plotting the course also pressed the > button. It's called multi-skilling - my budget doesn't stretch to a > cast of thousands you know. > But that's O.K. you chaps - just talk among yourselves, don't mind > me, I'm just sitting here tapping my chest with a closed fist and > chanting Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa (oops, sorry - past accumulations). > Oops... Looks like Rob K's interpretation was more accurate. To summarize; the plotting of the course is not breaking the first precept but pushing the button was breaking the first precept. Metta, Rob M :-) 27679 From: robmoult Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:14am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM & Michael (Herman in p.s.), > > --- robmoult wrote: > Hi Michael, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > > wrote: > > > RobM: > > > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > > > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for > > > more information. > > > > > > Michael: > > > Yes, this would make more sense to me. But is this taken from the > > > commentaries or is it your own conclusion? > ..... > RobM, I'm not sure about your phrase above, but I meant to point out this > passage from a recent post (by Larry) on the Vism thread. This note (just > a part of it) is taken from the commentary to the Vism and given at the > end of the Nanamoli translation: > > Notes: > > 14. <...> > 'Here it may be asked, "Is the arising of the faculties of the eye, > etc., due to kamma that is one or to kamma that is different?" Now > the ancients say, "In both ways". Herein, firstly, in the case of the > arising of an eye, etc., due to kamma that is different there is > nothing to be explained since the cause is divided up. But when their > arising is due to kamma that is one, how does there come to be > differentiation among them? It is due to dividedness in the cause > too. For it is craving, in the form of longing for this or that kind > of becoming that, itself having specific forms owing to hankering > after the sense-bases included in some kind of becoming or other, > contrives, acting as ***decisive-support***, the specific divisions in the > kamma that generates such a kind of becoming. <...>'(Pm. 444). > ***** > > Also, there are many references in the Vism to anusaya (latent > tendencies). For example, still on craving as anusaya: > > Vism XV1, 64 > > "..Of that same craving: of that craving which, it was said, `produces > further becoming', and which was classed as `craving for sense desires' > and so on...........eradication of inherent tendencies (anusaya)." It would appear that there is textual support (at least indirect textual support) for my position. Sarah, I seem to recall that you enjoy wading through the Patthana. Have you come across anything relevant there? Metta, Rob M :-) 27680 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:29am Subject: Christmas Hi James, It's Christmas in 20 days, and it's going to be so exciting.Big feast, Christmas trees, and the presents. What are the important festeivals in Buddhism? What do they do to celebrat?What's the theme? Refering to the letter you sent to me last time about rebirth. I've never really felt that during my last death, if I had one. Is it because this only supposed to happen to Buddhists? By the way,why can't I say recarnation? Metta, Hilary 27681 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:31am Subject: Buddhist Dear Kom, Thank you for the letter you sent me! How was your trip to Thailand? Did you enjoy yourself? Well I have some new questions for you: 1: When does the Kamma help you? 2:How do normal people become monks? 3:Does every Buddhist have a Buddha statue at home? Metta, Janice 27682 From: Star Kid Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:33am Subject: hello! Hi James! How are you? Thank you for your reply, I really apreciated your letter. Now I know why you understand Phillip and other kids as well. :) There are more questions which I like to ask you: 1. What do you mean by 'Nowadays, Buddhist countries aren't really all that Buddhist anyway'? 2. Do you know why Buddhism isn't a part of the culture in the Middle East, Europe and North/South America. Why did the monks travel to China, Tibet? (East) Please reply, thank you for taking your time and I will study hard in school :) Anne-Catherine :) 27683 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James k: Okay lets not debate on consciouness :). j: The Abhidhamma describes consciousness in terms of sensory > contacts: eye consciousness, nose consciousness, feeling >consciousness, etc. and that each of these consciousnesses rise and >fall. I won't dispute that, but I don't believe that it presents >the entire picture. k: Anyway the consciousness in terms of sensory contacts is not by Abdhidhamma. It can be found all over the sutta where Buddha talks about eye consciouness .... intellect consciouness. Since depend on form and eye, there arise eye consciouness - this represent the rise and fall - condition - impermanence. j: the Abhidhamma is interested in an atomistic view of dhammas: that everything must be broken down to its smallest independent status. k: There is a reason why consciouness speed is so fast, have to be atomised. Let look at the analogy of watching a show. We seem to see and listen simultaneously. Basing on logic, our human mind is only capable of thinking one thing at a time. Even though we can have many ideas floating at our mind, but we can only think of one idea one a at time. Just like when we first learn to type, we look at the keyborad one at a time consciously. So now after learning to type again and agin, when we type, we dont even look at the key board anymore, bc it like part of us. Our mind is like that, after eons of conditioning, things appear simultaneously which in fact it is our consciouness that is so fast that carry the perception of the object to our consciouness for our seeing and listening. If is not fast enough and atomised, we are like a 8 RAM Video card computer running a 3D game, it appear lagging, frame by frame, and it is like the lightning, we will see the light but later the sound. That is why it has to be fast and atomised for us to see and listen simultaneously kind regards Ken O 27684 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > > > > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > > > > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message > 26956) for > > > > more information. ..... To be honest, I don’t really understand what this means. I looked at your other clear message and am still at a loss. (By the way, I greatly appreciated your last flurry of great posts on accumulations, nat. decisive support, desirable objects and so on;-) ;-)). I had wanted to bring the Vism comy quote to your attention before(but you were travelling), because it related to comments we’d made about nat decisive support condition being necessary for kamma to bring its result. I also gave the one on anusaya (latent tendencies) as an indication of the many references to anusaya in texts such as the Vism. Perhaps you mean that tendencies and accumulations now arise as a result of nat decisive support and many other conditions. One quote I can give from the Patthana that is a good reminder and may be relevant to the poor fly thread is this: “Lust, hate, delusion, conceit, wrong views, wish is related to confidence, precept, learning, generosity, wisdom by strong-dependence condition. After having killed, (one) offers the offering, undertakes the precept, fulfils the duty of observance, develops jhana, develops insight, develops Path, develops superknowledge, develops attainment, to counteract it.” (423, Strong-dependence). In other words, lust, hate etc can condition wholesome states such as wise reflection, generosity or even insight into their characteristics immediately following. .... R:> It would appear that there is textual support (at least indirect > textual support) for my position. > > Sarah, I seem to recall that you enjoy wading through the Patthana. > Have you come across anything relevant there? .... I’ll need further clarification before any wading;-) Nina is also translating a series on anusaya (latent tendencies) which I’m sure will include a lot of helpful information too. Metta, Sarah p.s I’ll have very limited wading/posting time at the weekend. Ken O and Ken H, I had intended to write to you both, but maybe Monday. KenH, did you see my post to you on MN117 at the start of the Cooran w’end? (A reply is never called for, just thought you might have missed it). ====== 27685 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:47am Subject: Grasping at mind states Hi All, A question, or two. Why feed yourself with a solid diet of texts, commentaries on texts, and commentaries on commentaries, if your intention is to not cling to any mindstates? And why insist that the eye doesn't see form, but only one rupa at a time? What theme of a single rupa is there to grasp at? From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html The Fruits of the Contemplative Life (Sense Restraint) "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a form with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses. Peace Herman 27686 From: Sarah Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 5:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nutriment condition Hi Howard, --- upasaka@a... wrote: > My "pet peeves" don't prevent me from studying Abhidhamma. I do > study > it, and do gain from that study, but I don't study it as deeply, > seriously, or > with the same enthousiasm as you and others here. > Oh, yes, "life principle" is another pet peeve of mine. ***** Hi Howard, Thanks for raising your pet peeves;-) You may find these two extracts of use over the weekend: 1. Buddhist Dictionary - Nyantiloka http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/a/ahara.htm >áhára 'nutriment', 'food', is used in the concrete sense as material food and as such it belongs to derived corporeality (s. khandha, Summary I.) In the figurative sense, as 'foundation' or condition, it is one of the 24 conditions (paccaya) and is used to denote 4 kinds of nutriment, which are material and mental: 1. material food (kabalinkáráhára), 2. (sensorial and mental) impression (phassa), 3. mental volition (mano-sañcetaná), 4. consciousness (viññána). 1. Material food feeds the eightfold corporeality having nutrient essence as its 8th factor (i.e. the solid, liquid, heat, motion, colour, odour, the tastable and nutrient essence; s. rúpa-kalápa). 2. Sensorial and mental impression is a condition for the 3 kinds of feeling (agreeable, disagreeable and indifferent); s. paticcasamuppáda. 3. Mental volition (= karma) feeds rebirth; s. paticca-samuppáda. 4. Consciousness feeds mind and corporeality (náma-rúpa; ib., 2) at the moment of conception" (Vis.M. XI). Literature (on the 4 Nutriments): * M. 9 & Com. (tr. in 'R. Und.'), * M 38; * S. XII, 11, 63, 64 - * The Four Nutriments of Life, Selected texts & Com. (WHEEL 105/106). ************************************************ 2. ‘Conditions’ by Nina http://www.abhidhamma.org/Patthana%203%20chapter_7.htm The "Paììhåna" (Faultless Triplet, Investigation Chapter, §435, VII, d,e) mentions food and also physical life-faculty (rúpa-jívitindriya)separately under presence-condition. We read: Edible food is related to this body by presence-condition. Physical life-faculty is related to kamma-produced rúpa by presence-condition. After edible food has been taken and it has pervaded the body, thenutritive essence it contains supports the internal nutritive essence present in the groups of rúpa of the body, so that new groups of rúpa can be produced. When we consider the relation of nutrition to the body it helps us to see that we go on living because of conditions. The rúpa which is nutritive essence present in each group of rúpas of the body can produce new rúpas, but it cannot do so without the support of the nutritive essence present in food. Nutritive essence is one of the four factors which can produce rúpas of the body, the other being kamma, citta and temperature. Edible food conditions the rúpas of the body by way of presence-condition, it supports and consolidates them. As regards physical life faculty, rúpa-jívitindriya, this is always present in the groups of rúpa produced by kamma. It does not occur in the groups of rúpa produced by citta, heat or nutrition. Eyesense, for example, is produced by kamma, and thus there must also be jívitindriya together with it in that group of rúpas. The same is true for the other senses. We read about life faculty in the "Visuddhimagga" (XIV, 59): The life faculty has the characteristic of maintaining conascent kinds of matter. Its function is to make them occur. It is manifested in the establishing of their presence. And although it has the capacity consisting in the characteristic of maintaining, etc., yet it only maintains conascent kinds of matter at the moment of presence, as water does lotuses and so on. Though dhammas arise due to their own conditions, it maintains them, as a wet-nurse does a prince.... Past kamma is cause in the production of rúpa, but it is not present in the same way as the other three factors which produce rúpa: citta, temperature and nutrition. A deed, done in the past has fallen away, but the intention or volition which motivated that deed is accumulatedfrom moment to moment. The force of past kamma is carried on and therefore kamma still has the power to produce rúpa at present. Life faculty takes as a "wetnurse" the place of kamma, the "mother", in maintaining the life of the kamma-produced rúpas. Thus, life faculty conditions these rúpas by way of presence-condition. Life faculty maintains the life of the rúpas it arises together with in a group, it consolidates them, and then it falls away together with them. However, life faculty also plays its part in the successive arising of kamma-produced rúpas throughout life. Life faculty performs its task of consolidating kamma-produced rúpas from birth to death. Life faculty is a condition for distinguishing kamma-produced rúpa from other kinds of rúpa. We cling to the body which is alive, we cling to eyesense and earsense and take them for self. They are only elements maintained by life faculty, a kind of rúpa which is not self. They arise only because there are the appropriate conditions for their arising......< ***** Look forward to more of your pet peeve discussions - helpful for all;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27687 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/5/03 12:18:38 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > as I wrote to Michael, in the suttas we find : four pairs of men. In the > abh: the lokuttara cittas are enumerated as eight four maggacittas and four > phalacittas. The meaning is the same. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: The meaning may well be the same, or perhaps not. In the suttas it seems that each pair consists of one training for a stage of enlightenment (e.g. path in preparation for once returner), and the fruit of that training (the stage of once returner). In Abhidhamma, there are the notions, never clearly spelled out, BTW, of path consciousness and fruition consciousness. My question was whether or not there is anywhere in the suttas that the specific ideas of path consciousness and fruition consciousness are mentioned. (If not, that doesn't imply that the notions of path consciousness and fruition consciousness don't reflect reality or aren't the Buddha's teaching, but, on the other hand, if these notions *do* appear in the suttas, that would lend support both to their reality and their Buddhic origin.) ---------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > op 04-12-2003 04:57 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Is there anywhere in the suttas mention of path and > >fruit consciousness, or do they only appear in the Abhidhamma Pitaka and > the > >commentaries? > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27688 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Nina (and Michael) - In a message dated 12/5/03 12:19:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > I read it differently: such mighty beings as stream-winners > >and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry: to realize the > fruit of stream-entry, they have realized the path-consciousness and this is > immediately followed by the fruition-consciousness. ========================= It seems to me that your interpretation is a biiiig stretch that constitutes an honest attempt on your part to give support to Abhidhammic and commentarial positions that just don't make sense as a means of understanding this sutta. In particular, the idea of one practicing for fruition-consciousness having already had path-consciousness when it is given that the former immediately follows the latter makes no sense at all to me. What sort of "practicing" is that? Please look again at the following straightforward, conventional-language material for possible reconsideration: > ... stream-winners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners > and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; Arahants and > those practicing for Arahantship... With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27689 From: ukvegans Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 6:00am Subject: Question on ego and self .. I am confused about the subject of ego and self. I understand that western psychology says that if we believe that we have no self or identity - we therefore risk low self esteem and lack of personal identity which can lead to psychological problems - any comments welcome ... many thanks, Alan 27690 From: Htoo Naing Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 8:24am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 06 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitoiner has decided to march to Nibbana and to get through the Samsara. As a base, he has built up his Sila to the puremost form and he keeps it throughout his life and he maintains his Sila. He is practising Vipassana meditation. It is Mahasatipatthana. Mahasatipattha is four-fold. The first Satipatthana is mindfulness on body matter. The second is mindfulness on Vedana or feeling. The third is mindfulness on his mind. And the fourth is mindfulness on Dhamma of different kinds. Mahasatipatthana, even though it has four folds, in essence it is Sati. If the Dhamma practitioner is practising Mahasatipatthana, he is developing Samma-Sati which is a part of Noble Eightfold Path, which again is the only way to Nibbana and the only means to get through the Samsara. Mahasatipatthana is a wide subject. Almost all Buddhists have heard of Mahasatipatthana. Mahasatipatthana is being taught at most practical Dhamma courses. As it is a wide subject, it will be better to go bit by bit and digest bit by bit so that the practitioner can well absorb the matter and keep it clear in the mind and bring it with him all the time. Whatever he is, the Dhamma practitioner will need to plan his available time to be used effectively. Nowadays, most people will argue that they do not have enough time to learn Dhamma and practise Dhamma. The most frequent words they would say is I will do these matters when I become old :-)) . This happens because they do not know that they are growing old and they have been growing old since they were born. When I was preparing this message, one of my friends read up some words and said that he was not interested in these matters but he said he would one day learn Dhamma and possibly practise it when he became old. Actually he is round about his fifties. He was trying to avoid Dhamma, as he thought that he is still young and he did not need to do such things. Probably, he may do these things when he retires. Vipassana has to be always with the Dhamma practitioner. When he stood aside me, I knew that I noticed. Heard his words and knew that I heard. When I am typing this message, I know that this is my thought, this is my learned wisdom, this is my wisdom arising from my practice and so on. And this finger is moving, that finger is putting on that letter and so on. Vipassana starts when the Dhamma practitioner wakes up. As soon as he wakes up he has to recognize that he is conscious. If there is no strong stimuli or strong sense he will focus on his breath for a while before he actually gets up. After a while, he decides to get up. He knows that he has decided. Each movement is recognized bit by bit including the thought that pushes these movements. He has to know, he is conscious, he gets up and gets down from the bed, goes to toilet, standing, walking, sitting, releasing, flushing, cleaning, washing and so on. Each movement has to be under consciousness. This is a kind of clear understanding of all bodily actions. Then he does his usual homage to triplegem routinely and now he is ready to sit for an hour for formal sitting breathing meditation. May you all be conscious to all events that you encounter at the very present With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Journey To Nibbana 27691 From: htootintnaing Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 9:23am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Alan, There is no self. There is no identity. So there need not to be a self esteen. Hto Naing ------------------------ --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ukvegans" wrote: > I am confused about the subject of ego and self. > > I understand that western psychology says that if we believe that we > have no self or identity - we therefore risk low self esteem and lack > of personal identity which can lead to psychological problems - any > comments welcome ... > > many thanks, > Alan 27692 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 9:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hello RobM, RobM: However, I would defend this position as making logic sense after studying the concepts of anusaya and pakatupanissaya. Michael: OK. Fair enough. Tks. Metta Michael 27693 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 9:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Hello Nina, Nina: such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry: to realize the fruit of stream-entry, they have realized the path-consciousness and this is immediately followed by the fruition-consciousness. Michael: Yes, I see that, in fact after I sent you the message I thought about that. But still one inconsistency. If the fruition consciousness follows immediately after the path consciousness why do they have to practice to realize the fruit? The fruit has already happened immediately after path consciousness. You see the point? Metta Michael 27694 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 46 Hi Larry, First of all, I looked up this: see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA. 313. As to Vis XIII, it is explained : someone is in the dark, then comes to a well lit place: it takes a few processes before he sees clearly. Or hearing a sound at a distance: he does not hear the sound at first, but it takes a few processes. I looked at DhsA, the Expositor, this has paralel passages I find clearer. For visible object: the moon: it strikes the eyesense, from a distance. It is a kind of impingement different from the impingement of odour. We should remember that wind is a condition for bringing it to the nose, and for tastingsense wetness is a condition for impingement of flavour: the tongue should not be dried out. We read in the Expositor: The tongue has for object It may seem a story of conventional terms, but in fact conditions are demonstrated here. So many conditions are needed to experience odour or flavour, we never thought of that before. We take it all for granted. Nina. op 05-12-2003 03:48 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I take this to mean eye and ear consciousness can apprehend objects at > a distance but nose, taste, and touch consciousness cannot. [I wonder > about nose??] I assume sound and visible object travel from the distant > place to their respective organs by means of "death" and "rebirth" (in a > slightly different place) of the sound and visible object rupas. Having > non-contiguous objects does not rule out contact (phassa). 27695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. thread Hi Larry, Okay. Sarah, Listing the Pali words is okay, but they will take a lot of space and the post maybe too long. They are very many. Nina. op 05-12-2003 00:53 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: But I think we need to stay > together. So if you see something that should be translated then we > stop. Okay? 27696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 10:38am Subject: anapanasati 5 b anapanasati 5 b I think the following quotes, (p.22) also help us to see importance of panna (wisdom) as being foremost, even when we are discussing satipatthana: ***** "Since there is nothing called spiritual development [bhavana] without laying hold on something whatsoever in material form, feeling, consciousness and mental objects [kaya vedana citta dhammesu kiñci dhammam anamasitva] they (Santati and Patacara) too overcame sorrow and lamentation just by this Way of Mindfulness. For the hearers [savaka], namely, the disciples of the Buddha, there is no attainment of the Noble Path [Ariya Magga] possible, except by practicing the subject of meditation [kammatthana] of the Four Truths [Catu Sacca]. Spiritual development usually called meditation, is the development of wisdom [pañña bhavana]. Just the contemplation of material form (corporeality), of feeling, consciousness or mental objects, constitutes the cultivation of the Arousing of Mindfulness." ***** Sarah: In the commentary notes under kayanupassi’, we read more detail about the objects of sati-sampajanna, what read about the paramattha dhammas (p33): ***** "In this body, apart from the above mentioned collection, there is seen no body, man, woman or anything else. Beings engender wrong belief, in many ways, in the bare groups of things mentioned above. Therefore the men of old said: What he sees that is not (properly) seen; What is seen, that he does not (properly) see; Not seeing (properly) he is shackled clean; And he, the shackled fool, cannot get free. What he sees = What man or woman he sees. Why, is there no seeing of man or a woman with the eye? There is. "I see a woman," "I see a man." -- these statements refer to what he sees by way of ordinary perception. That perception, owing to wrong comprehension, does not get at the sense-basis [rupayatana] in the highest sense, philosophically, through the falsely determined condition of material form [viparita gahavasena miccha parikappita rupatta]. Or the meaning is: the absence of perception which is called the seeing of primary and derived materiality, beginning with things such as the hair of the head, owing to non-cognizability of the collective nature of an object like a man or woman by eye-consciousness [kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam ditthi na hoti acakkhuviññana viññeyyatta]. What is seen that he does not properly see = He does not see, according to reality by the eye of wisdom, the sense-basis which exists, the collection of primary and derived materiality beginning with hair of the head and the like [yam rupayatanam kesadibhutupadaya samuhasankhatam dittham tam pañña-cakkhuna bhutato na passati]. Not seeing properly he is shackled = Not seeing this body as it actually is, with the eye of wisdom, he thinks: "This is mine, this am I, this is my self," and is bound with the fetter of defilement [imam attabhavam yathabhutam paññacakkhuna apassanto etam mama esohamasmi eso me attati kilesa bandhanena bajjhati]." ***** 27697 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 11:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hello Ken, Sorry to insist on this, but some of your answers raise more doubts .... see inline >From: "kenhowardau" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran >Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 03:08:09 -0000 > >Hello Michael, > >I was holding court on the evils of popular Buddhist >meditation :-) Your response was: >----------- > > I am curious now, can you please provide more details >on what would be those popular forms of concentration? >------------ > >KH: Consider the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas; >These utterly profound teachings are, today, interpreted >in a way that renders them banal and worthless. > MB: Can you briefly explain what you mean? Which are those interpretations that you are referring to? >By heeding the ancient commentaries, we can avoid such >terrible misinterpretation: When the Buddha spoke of >'mindfulness while walking,' he did not mean the kind of >mindfulness we share with lesser beings: When dogs and >jackals walk, they know they are walking; Also, a baby at >the breast knows pleasant feeling. We should not slander >the Buddha by suggesting that these commonplace forms of >mindfulness [of body and feeling] are the same as his >unique, profound teaching: satipatthana. > >---------------- >MK: > You are also saying that jhana is part of >the Vipassana movement, have I understood it right? If >yes, can you be more specific which/where Vipassana >movement? >----------------- > >Sorry Michael, we are on different wavelengths here. I >made no reference to "Vipassana movement." Did you think >I was referring to the Goenka group? MB: OK. I was thinking nothing. But I clearly remember you referring to 'Vipassana movement'. My mistake, don't worry :) > >----------------- >KenH: > > I'd like to remind you that, in the Tipitaka, >some ariyans developed jhana followed by vipassana, some >developed vipassana followed by jhana, some developed >jhana and vipassana together and some developed vipassana >alone (no jhana). > >Michael: > I think it is always good to qualify what >comes from the basic scriptures in the Tipitaka from the >commentaries. And I presume your conclusions are drawn >from the commentaries, right? >----------------- > >Not this time. I was thinking of certain suttas quoted >by Nina in message # 12371. I would be good to have your >comments on that message if you wouldn't mind. > MB: OK. I read the message and it was great. I had no sutta reference for sukkha vipassaka. Now I have, tks. >---------------- >MB : > I am also curious how is jhana and vipassana >developed together? I can understand alternating both, or >in a sequence, but together, how does that work? >--------------- > >I don't specifically remember the explanation of this. In >anapanasati, the object of consciousness is not a concept >of breath (e.g., the movement of the abdomen), it is the >actual rupa -- the paramattha dhamma -- that is >conventionally known as breath. As you know, vipassana >(satipatthana), also has a paramattha dhamma as object. >If jhana and vipassana could possibly share one and the >same object, then they might well be said to be developed >together. That is, if they could have, not only the same >type of object (rupa), but the same actual rupa. > MB: I am not sure I follow you here. The object might be the same but the jhana citta and panna citta are different, two different moments, so they cannot be simultaneous. >I think this is exactly what happens in anapana-sati (the >most difficult of all practices). Being able to enter >and leave jhana at will, and being able to enter and >leave satipatthana at will, the meditator is able to make >one rupa the object of both jhana consciousness and [the >immediately following] vipassana consciousness. > >Corrections welcome. > >Kind regards, >Ken H Metta Michael 27698 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life faculty Hi Howard, Lodewijk said, greetings to Howard! H:My "pet peeves" don't prevent me from studying Abhidhamma. I do study > it, and do gain from that study, but I don't study it as deeply, seriously, or > with the same enthousiasm as you and others here. > Oh, yes, "life principle" is another pet peeve of mine. I think it is > a piece of primitive nonsense probably growing out of the experience of people > who frequently got to see the moment of death of others without the > "shielding" often provided by modern day hospitals and hospices. I see > jivitindriya > (sp?) as another presumed but never observed hidden something that there is no > reason to believe in. > -------------------------------------------------- N: It is better to have it all out.> >> ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, we're getting there! ;-)) N: It is a kind of relief, isn't it? ;-)) If you always swallow things politely I do not know where the trouble spots are. I try to take away people's irritation about the Abhidhamma, but I am sure I cannot succeed immediately. When people go on studying, like you do, you will see how all is connected, hangs together. I appreciate your study. It is like in mathematics, later on when you go back to the beginning it all makes more sense. The Buddha gave us the Abhidhamma, something very precious, but people may not see that there is Abhidhamma also in the Vinaya and the Suttanta. Then one always misses the essence of the Buddha's message, as I said. Life-faculty, jivitindriya, there is mental jivitindriya and material jivitindriya. As to mental jivitindriya, this is one of the cetasikas, the universals, accompanying each citta. It has a function, preserving the life of the accompanying citta and cetasikas. This is hard to understand, and I do not pretend that I experience this cetasika. But it makes sense to me, especially when seeing it as one of the conditions as taught in the Patthana. I come back to this. The rupa which is jivitindriya: life faculty or vitality, is also called aayu. When you walk outside to save an insect, you know that there is life faculty, you do not save the life of a twig of your tree or of a stone. It is only in living bodies, and originates from kamma. Not difficult: kamma produced your rebirthconsciousness and rupas at the same time. The akusala kamma patha of killing: you know that there is a living being, with life faculty. It is what makes the difference between a living body and dead matter. Rupas of the body do not arise in isolation, but in clusters or groups, very tiny ones. Those groups that are produced by kamma always have the lifefaculty which is rupa included. Difficult? In M I, 43, there is a conversation between Sariputta and Maha-Kotthita, and also vitality is mentioned. it is explained that vitality and heat depend on one another. It is explained that a dead body is different from the body of a monk who has realized the stopping of perception and feeling: Do you see the difference? Guide to Conditional Relations (U Narada):< Physical Life-Faculty: The conditioning state, relates by controlling kamma-produced matter (that was caused by past kamma) so as to prolong its life (i.e. to bring about the succession of kamma-produced matter), although there is no cause for it by present kamma, is known as pysical life-faculty condition.> He explains that this faculty has the function of maintaining life and of making that group arise in continuous succession. Kamma was in the past, but physical life faculty maintains that group of rupas. It is like a wet-nurse, taking care of a motherless child. Mental jivitindriya: Expositor I, p. 197: <...that persistence which is in immaterial states means the persisitence which, in the sense of establishing them, is in the immaterial states. For when it is present, the immaterial states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the faculty of life. And inasmuch as these associated immaterial states- when there is persistence- subsist, occur, maintain themselves, progress, continue, preserve themselves...> Citta and cetasikas fall away together, but they are succeeded by a following citta and cetasikas. There is a new life faculty with them each time they arise, and it makes them subsist during that short moment. More details, Vis. XIV, 59, and footnote 25 which is the Tiika. We come to that with Larry later on. May I shout to you? Nina. 27699 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Dear Michael, See The ³Knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies² mentioned in the ³Path of Discrimination² , ³Paìisambhidåmagga² of the Khuddaka Nikåya, in the Måtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of knowledge. See also Ch 69, p. 124. These latent tendencies are further explained in its Commentary, the ³Saddhammappakåsiní² under the Explanation (Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings¹ biasses and underlying tendencies (åsayånusaya ñåna). Also in the Yamaka of the Abhidhamma (See Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka, p. 104). Nina. op 05-12-2003 02:01 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > RobM: > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message 26956) for > more information. > > Michael: > Yes, this would make more sense to me. But is this taken from the > commentaries or is it your own conclusion? 27700 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 6:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi, Htoo (and Alan) - In a message dated 12/5/03 12:32:18 PM Eastern Standard Time, htootintnaing@y... writes: > > Hi Alan, > > There is no self. There is no identity. So there need not to be a > self esteen. > > Hto Naing =========================== When self-esteem is missing, in the usual, conventional sense, the sense of self or personal identity is *very* much present, and it is a particularly unheathy and destructive sense. To have self-esteem merely means to have a positive, perhaps even joyful attitude with regard to one's life, what one is doing, and how one comports oneself. The term 'self-esteem' sounds like a kind of conceit, but that is not its real meaning. (English can be very odd at times.;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27701 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 7:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life faculty Hi, Nina - In a message dated 12/5/03 3:28:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Lodewijk said, greetings to Howard! > ====================== Thank you! My very best to him!! :-) Nina, thank you for the very detailed reply you give (and which I snipped off in this reply to you). I appreciate the great efforts you go to. I will read your words carefully, and I will look further at these topics in other places as well, out of respect for you and for your great dedication. I don't *expect* to be persuaded on these matters ;-), but I *will* afford a fair opportunity for that to happen. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27702 From: robmoult Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 1:03pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Alan, Welcome... I haven't see you post before. I hope that more "lurkers" come out of the woodwork :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ukvegans" wrote: > I am confused about the subject of ego and self. > > I understand that western psychology says that if we believe that we > have no self or identity - we therefore risk low self esteem and lack > of personal identity which can lead to psychological problems - any > comments welcome ... From my personal observations, the people who tend to focus a lot on non-self (anatta in Pali), do not have psychological problems related to poor self esteem. In fact, quite the reverse... some of them have excessively high self esteem :-) One of the core features of Buddhism is three characterisitics of reality: - Impermanence (anicca) - Stress (dukkha) - Non-self (anatta) When people with tendencies to low self consider these three topics, they find the first two to be empowering, "Oh, now I see that impermanence and stress (sometimes translated as suffering) are the nature of reality... they are not 'my fault'..." People with low self esteem are rarely drawn into a seemingly theoretical argument of "there is no self" associated with anatta. In the Suttas (collected speeches of the Buddha), we can see that the Buddha did not try to explain the subject of anatta to lay people. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 27703 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 8:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: life faculty Hi again, Nina - A few comments interspersed below. In a message dated 12/5/03 3:28:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Life-faculty, jivitindriya, there is mental jivitindriya and material > jivitindriya. > As to mental jivitindriya, this is one of the cetasikas, the universals, > accompanying each citta. It has a function, preserving the life of the > accompanying citta and cetasikas. This is hard to understand, and I do not > pretend that I experience this cetasika. But it makes sense to me, > especially when seeing it as one of the conditions as taught in the > Patthana. I come back to this. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: We're alike in one respect to this: I don't experience it either! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------- > The rupa which is jivitindriya: life faculty or vitality, is also called > aayu. When you walk outside to save an insect, you know that there is life > faculty, you do not save the life of a twig of your tree or of a stone. It > is only in living bodies, and originates from kamma. Not difficult: kamma > produced your rebirthconsciousness and rupas at the same time. The akusala > kamma patha of killing: you know that there is a living being, with life > faculty. It is what makes the difference between a living body and dead > matter. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There are many differences between living and nonliving "things", but I don't believe that something called "vitality" or "life principle", observed by no one, is one of them. ---------------------------------------------------- > Rupas of the body do not arise in isolation, but in clusters or groups, > very > tiny ones. Those groups that are produced by kamma always have the > lifefaculty which is rupa included. Difficult? > ------------------------------------------------------ Howard: Neither difficult nor easy. Just no reason for believing. ------------------------------------------------------ > In M I, 43, there is a conversation between Sariputta and Maha-Kotthita, > and > also vitality is mentioned. it is explained that vitality and heat depend on > one another. It is explained that a dead body is different from the body of > a monk who has realized the stopping of perception and feeling: this body, your reverence, when three things are got rid of: vitality, heat > and consciousness, then does this body lie cast away, flung aside like unto > a senseless log of wood.> Do you see the difference? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Of course there are differences between living bodies and dead ones - several, and obvious. The term 'vitality' is an ordinary conventional expression that we apply to any living body. I have no objection to using the term or considering it meaningful. I simply consider that making a dhamma out of it is silly. -------------------------------------------------- > Guide to Conditional Relations (U Narada):< Physical Life-Faculty: The > conditioning state, relates by controlling kamma-produced matter (that was > caused by past kamma) so as to prolong its life (i.e. to bring about the > succession of kamma-produced matter), although there is no cause for it by > present kamma, is known as pysical life-faculty condition.> > He explains that this faculty has the function of maintaining life and of > making that group arise in continuous succession. Kamma was in the past, but > physical life faculty maintains that group of rupas. It is like a wet-nurse, > taking care of a motherless child. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: A good story, but no more. No reason for believing it. (No irreparable harm, however, if one *does* believe it! ;-) -------------------------------------------------- > Mental jivitindriya: Expositor I, p. 197: <...that persistence which is in > immaterial states means the persisitence which, in the sense of establishing > them, is in the immaterial states. For when it is present, the immaterial > states occur, go on, continue; hence it is called persistence [aayu: life, > is causative of i, to go, is explained]. This word gives the nature of the > faculty of life. And inasmuch as these associated immaterial states- when > there is persistence- subsist, occur, maintain themselves, progress, > continue, preserve themselves...> > Citta and cetasikas fall away together, but they are succeeded by a > following citta and cetasikas. There is a new life faculty with them each > time they arise, and it makes them subsist during that short moment. > More details, Vis. XIV, 59, and footnote 25 which is the Tiika. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: What are instances of the mental life principle *not* being present? Why should it be deemed necessary. Cittas, cetasikas, and rupas arise according to conditions. Why the need for a special "life principal" to sustain them??? ---------------------------------------------- We come to > > that with Larry later on. May I shout to you? --------------------------------------------- Howard: Please do! ;-) --------------------------------------------- > Nina. > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27704 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 1:34pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ukvegans" wrote: > I am confused about the subject of ego and self. > > I understand that western psychology says that if we believe that we > have no self or identity - we therefore risk low self esteem and lack > of personal identity which can lead to psychological problems - any > comments welcome ... > > many thanks, > Alan Hi Alan, This is a very good question. There are a number of psychological disorders, like depersonalization disorder and disassociative personality disorder, which seem to suggest the Buddha's teaching of anatta (non-self). The important difference is that these disorders negatively impact daily functioning and cause great stress while recognition of non-self has quite the opposite effect; it is supposed to be liberating and peaceful. Brain studies reveal that self identity originates in the frontal lobe area of the brain. There are also studies that show that internal dialogue; mental talking to oneself about oneself strengthens this area of the brain-- that we form a strong part of our identity by what we tell ourselves. Some research has demonstrated that those who practice long periods of meditation, specifically Zen masters, have less blood flow to this area of the brain. It might be assumed that this is because internal dialogue is significantly reduced during long periods of meditation. Anyway, the result isn't a psychological disorder but a brain that expends less energy on self awareness and thus opens the doors for deeper awareness and wisdom. This is a scientific response to your question since it was a scientific question; others might describe this process in a more philosophical way. But I know what you mean. Those people who constantly say they have no self and tell others that, regardless of their awareness and the awareness of their audience, sound a little nuts to me also! ;-) Metta, James 27705 From: robmoult Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 0:35pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > --- robmoult wrote: > > > > > I see anusaya as the manifestation of natural decisive support > > > > > condition (pakatupanissaya). See my recent post (message > > 26956) for > > > > > more information. > ..... > To be honest, I don't really understand what this means. I looked at your > other clear message and am still at a loss. ===== In Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, under "anusaya", a reference is made to Vis.M. XXII,60: "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become the conditions for the arising of ever new sensous greed, etc." In other words, "anusaya" refers to mental states that tend to be somewhat self-sustaining. Now what is the underlying mechanism that would allow a mental state to become somewhat self-sustaining? It is pakatupanissaya. For example, the arising of sensous greed creates a "strong past citta/cetasika" which becomes the conditioning state for a new citta of sensous greed via pakatupanissaya. I see anusaya as the manifestation (outcome) and I see pakatupanissaya as the underlying mechanism supporting this outcome. Does this clarify or confuse? Metta, Rob M :-) 27706 From: clarehanson2000 Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 2:12pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > This is a very good question. There are a number of psychological > disorders, like depersonalization disorder and disassociative > personality disorder, which seem to suggest the Buddha's teaching of > anatta (non-self). The important difference is that these disorders > negatively impact daily functioning and cause great stress while > recognition of non-self has quite the opposite effect; it is supposed > to be liberating and peaceful. > > Brain studies reveal that self identity originates in the frontal > lobe area of the brain. There are also studies that show that > internal dialogue; mental talking to oneself about oneself > strengthens this area of the brain-- that we form a strong part of > our identity by what we tell ourselves. Some research has > demonstrated that those who practice long periods of meditation, > specifically Zen masters, have less blood flow to this area of the > brain. It might be assumed that this is because internal dialogue is > significantly reduced during long periods of meditation. Anyway, the > result isn't a psychological disorder but a brain that expends less > energy on self awareness and thus opens the doors for deeper > awareness and wisdom. This is a scientific response to your question > since it was a scientific question; others might describe this > process in a more philosophical way. > > But I know what you mean. Those people who constantly say they have > no self and tell others that, regardless of their awareness and the > awareness of their audience, sound a little nuts to me also! ;-) > > Metta, James Thank you James for sharing this point of view. I never met anybody making claim to no self. No yet anyhow. Besides, who would be a-doin' the claiming other than a self? Maybe a tape recorder underneath the tongue? Just teasing. 27707 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hello Nina, Nina: See The ³Knowledge of beings¹ biases and underlying tendencies² mentioned in >the ³Path of Discrimination² , ³Paìisambhidåmagga² of the Khuddaka Nikåya, >in the Måtika (Table of Contents), among the seventythree kinds of >knowledge. See also Ch 69, p. 124. These latent tendencies are further >explained in its Commentary, the ³Saddhammappakåsiní² under the Explanation >(Niddesa) of Knowledge of beings¹ biasses and underlying tendencies >(åsayånusaya ñåna). Also in the Yamaka of the Abhidhamma (See Guide through >the Abhidhamma Pitaka, p. 104). Michael: Tks for your thorough response. In fact I was not so much questioning anusaya but the idea that they lie 'dormant' somewhere. This concept has an essenciialist flavor to it which I find hard to swalow. Now the idea of anusaya as a condition, devoid of substance, makes more sense to me. My questiion then was whether this view of anusaya as a condition is supported in the commentaries. Metta Michael 27708 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 3:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hello James, James: research has demonstrated that those who practice long periods of meditation, specifically Zen masters, have less blood flow to this area of the brain Michael: Hey James, this was funny, some piece of subliminal advertising. Why not Theravada monks, ot Tibetan monks or Chinese monks :) Or just meditators... In fact some research being done in the US involves Tibetan monks, as far as I know no zen masters. Metta Michael 27709 From: Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 4:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Question on ego and self .. Hi Alan, "Not self" just means that nothing is lasting and worthy of being regarded as me or mine. Whatever arises ceases. Clinging is futile. Self esteem, either high or low, is a reality (theoretically). It boils down to like and dislike. Can you find like and dislike in your experience? Take a good look. Don't be fooled by words and feelings. Larry 27710 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 5:51pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anusaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello RobertK, > > RobertK: > Latent tendencies (anusaya) are subtle defilements that lie > dormant 'waiting' for the opportunity to arise as pariyutthana where > they are active forms of craving, dosa and wrong view. > > Michael: > This description gives the (wrong) impression that the anusaya are not > subject to change and may even have some sort of substance. So, which would > be a proper description that would dispel this impression? Is there > something in the commentaries to this effect? =================================== Dear Michael, the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries show and detail how every phenomena is conditioned - except for nibbana. Anusaya are certainly conditioned. The anusaya are: lust for sense pleasure (kamaraganusaya) the latent tendency of aversion (patighanusaya) the latent tendency of conceit (mananusaya) the latent tendency of wrong view (ditthanusaya) the latent tendency of doubt (vicikicchanusaya) the latent tendency of lust for becoming (bhava-raganusaya) the latent tendency of ignorance (avijjanusaya) If there were no anusaya then there could be no conditions for any greed , wrong view or aversion. The arahants have eradicated all anusaya. Before knowing the Buddha`s teaching we used to think 'I' am angry, or greedy or bored. But these phenomena are only pariyutthana - the active stage of the defilements conditioned by anusaya- not us. There are many types of spritual pratice in the world but even the best - except for vipassana- only supress the outward signs of defilements, they do not even touch the anusaya: The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) ... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." What are the conditions for the anusaya? Here is a section from the Mahanidana sutta commentary, (from bodhi The great discourse on causationp65)about Paticcasamupadda: Deep is the meaning of volitional formations as volitionally forming, accumulating, lustfulness, and lustlessness. Almost every moment there is the accumulating of new tendencies. Now perhaps we are kind, polite people but tendencies change - and next life we may be born somewhere we we cannot hear dhamma and we gradually develop strong tendencies to roughness and stupidity. How are the tendencies eradicated? Only by clear seeing (vipassana). The first anusaya to be eradicated is wrong view, and this too is a gradual process of wearing away. Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions. RobertK 27711 From: Egberdina Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 6:10pm Subject: Re: The Holy Relics of Lord Buddha Hi Thomas, Thank you for your kind note. It is true, hundreds of thousands of people believe they have great faith in the Buddha, and in his power to make positive changes in their lives. Even the dead remnants and reminders of his existence are invested with great powers to heal suffering of all kinds. I wrote above that people believe they have faith because the on-the- surface similarity between faith and attachment is so great that the two are often confused. Faith arises naturally, when attachment is dropped. Unshakeable faith arises naturally, when understanding sees the true nature of reality. When the true nature of reality becomes clearer there is less need for attachment to it. The way things really are is despite you, not because of you. If there is the slighest hint of the urge to jump to the assistance or defense of the object one believes one has invested with faith, you can have faith that this is just attachment. Beyond stream-entry lies unshakeable faith. Before it lies attachment to things that are not real. Peace Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest wrote: > Dear Herman, > > thank you for your letter. I am glad you like the site. I believe in free speech, so you don't need my permission, and I apologize for my harsh words to "forbid" talking about it. That was a mistake. > > I understand you concerns in the context of attachment. > > Gassho, > Thomas > 27712 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 11:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Jhana and vipassana together Michael --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Hello KenH, ... > Michael: > I think it is always good to qualify what comes from the basic > scriptures in > the Tipitaka from the commentaries. And I presume your conclusions > are drawn > from the commentaries, right? I am also curious how is jhana and > vipassana > developed together? I can understand alternating both, or in a > sequence, but > together, how does that work? You asked about jhana and vipassana jhana being 'developed together'. This is the sort of terminology used in the sutta below in reference to the third way of attaining enlightenment ('in tandem', sometimes also translated as 'yoked') Jon Anguttara Nikaya IV.170 Yuganaddha Sutta -- In Tandem On one occasion Ven. Ananda was staying in Kosambi, at Ghosita's monastery. There he addressed the monks, "Friends!" "Yes, friend," the monks responded. Ven. Ananda said: "Friends, whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of four paths. Which four? "There is the case where a monk has developed insight preceded by tranquillity. As he develops insight preceded by tranquillity, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity preceded by insight. As he develops tranquillity preceded by insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk has developed tranquillity in tandem with insight. As he develops tranquillity in tandem with insight, the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Then there is the case where a monk's mind has its restlessness concerning the Dhamma [Comm: the corruptions of insight] well under control. There comes a time when his mind grows steady inwardly, settles down, and becomes unified & concentrated. In him the path is born. He follows that path, develops it, pursues it. As he follows the path, developing it & pursuing it -- his fetters are abandoned, his obsessions destroyed. "Whoever -- monk or nun -- declares the attainment of arahantship in my presence, they all do it by means of one or another of these four paths." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/anguttara/an04-170.html 27713 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 11:41pm Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Michael: > Hey James, this was funny, some piece of subliminal advertising. Why not > Theravada monks, ot Tibetan monks or Chinese monks :) Or just meditators... > In fact some research being done in the US involves Tibetan monks, as far as > I know no zen masters. > > > Metta > Michael Hi Michael, Subliminal Advertising? What? Do you think I am a salesman for the Zen Masters of America or something? ;-))) I was trying to be as accurate as I could be based on my memory. I actually spent a long time on the Internet trying to find the article but I couldn't find it*. I had read it as a print article in my city newspaper (since I am now in Cairo, I can't go to the library to find it). I had read some articles about brain research and Tibetan monks but as I remember they were studying something else, levels of seritonin and brain activity during `metta' meditation. This article was about a different matter conducted at a later time and I thought it involved a different set of monks; I thought it was about Zen monks, but I could be wrong. It was studying the effects of long term meditation on normal brain activity. It could have been about Tibetan monks. Actually, when I was typing that post I paused for a long time trying to decide and remember if it was Zen monks or Tibetan monks, I went with the Zen monks because I think they meditate a lot longer, practically around the clock! I did even consider if I should just type `meditators', since I couldn't remember for sure and couldn't find the article, but I thought that would give the false impression that this effect occurs with just anyone who meditates. No, it has to be A LOT of meditation. So, there is the long explanation for why I chose that phrase. It sounds like your memory is not exactly stellar on this matter either. If you would care to find the article and research and officially correct my misstatement, rather than guessing, that would be great with me. I appreciate accuracy. Please don't assume the worst about me. Metta, James *Side note: It is getting harder and harder to find free stuff on the Internet anymore. Good articles require subscriptions to various web sites. Nothing good ever seems to last! ;-) 27714 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Dec 5, 2003 11:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Grasping at mind states Herman Good questions and a great sutta quote. --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi All, > > A question, or two. > > Why feed yourself with a solid diet of texts, commentaries on > texts, > and commentaries on commentaries, if your intention is to not cling > to any mindstates? The use of texts does not *necessarily* involve, or lead to, clinging to mindstates. Appropriately done, it can lead to less clinging to mindstates, because of the great wisdom embodied in the teachings. On the other hand, a limited and selective use of texts may leave one with a wrong understanding of the intended meaning. Of course, I am not saying that 'more reading of texts means greater understanding'; it all depends on the individual case. But if indeed reading is accompanied by or leads to more clinging, the problem is not in the texts themselves but in the expectations or wrong view of the reader. > And why insist that the eye doesn't see form, but only one rupa at > a time? What theme of a single rupa is there to grasp at? I haven't checked the passage below, but I think you'll find that 'form' is a translation of the Pali 'rupa', here meaning 'visible object' rather than rupa of rupa-khandha. This is different from 'form' as in 'object' or 'detail'. To my reading of the passage, the visible object ('rupa') is being contrasted with the 'theme and details' (nimitta anubyancana), i.e., the outward appearance. Now here's a question for you. Given the speed with which clinging arises when sense-door objects are experienced, what is your understanding of the means by which it would be possible for a person to 'not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail him'? Jon > From http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn02.html > The Fruits of the Contemplative Life > > (Sense Restraint) > "And how does a monk guard the doors of his senses? On seeing a > form > with the eye, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- > if he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye > -- > evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail > him. On hearing a sound with the ear... On smelling an odor with > the nose... One tasting a flavor with the tongue... On touching a > tactile sensation with the body... On cognizing an idea with the > intellect, he does not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if > he were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the > intellect -- evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress > might assail him. Endowed with this noble restraint over the sense > faculties, he is inwardly sensitive to the pleasure of being > blameless. This is how a monk guards the doors of his senses. 27715 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 0:44am Subject: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Dear Group, Yoniso-manasikaara = wise, reasoned, methodical attention or reflection. Is it possible to cause wise attention to arise? And what, exactly, is wise attention as it would be experienced in daily life? How could one tell wise from unwise attention? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27716 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 2:24am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Michael and James, Perhaps this is my fault. I mentioned this research to James on one of his first DSG posts and I may have mistakenly said Zen monks. I first read about it in a Readers Digest article. I read some medical papers on-line and finally went out to buy the book: "Why God Won't Go Away" by Andrew Newberg, Eugene D'Aquili and Vince Rause. In fact, the volunteer meditator used in this study was a layperson (not a monk) who followed a Tibetian meditation practice. His name is Robert :-) . Sorry for any confusion caused. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" > wrote: > > > Michael: > > Hey James, this was funny, some piece of subliminal advertising. > Why not > > Theravada monks, ot Tibetan monks or Chinese monks :) Or just > meditators... > > In fact some research being done in the US involves Tibetan monks, > as far as > > I know no zen masters. > > > > > > Metta > > Michael > > Hi Michael, > > Subliminal Advertising? What? Do you think I am a salesman for the > Zen Masters of America or something? ;-))) I was trying to be as > accurate as I could be based on my memory. I actually spent a long > time on the Internet trying to find the article but I couldn't find > it*. I had read it as a print article in my city newspaper (since I > am now in Cairo, I can't go to the library to find it). I had read > some articles about brain research and Tibetan monks but as I > remember they were studying something else, levels of seritonin and > brain activity during `metta' meditation. This article was about a > different matter conducted at a later time and I thought it involved > a different set of monks; I thought it was about Zen monks, but I > could be wrong. It was studying the effects of long term meditation > on normal brain activity. It could have been about Tibetan monks. > Actually, when I was typing that post I paused for a long time trying > to decide and remember if it was Zen monks or Tibetan monks, I went > with the Zen monks because I think they meditate a lot longer, > practically around the clock! I did even consider if I should just > type `meditators', since I couldn't remember for sure and couldn't > find the article, but I thought that would give the false impression > that this effect occurs with just anyone who meditates. No, it has > to be A LOT of meditation. > > So, there is the long explanation for why I chose that phrase. It > sounds like your memory is not exactly stellar on this matter > either. If you would care to find the article and research and > officially correct my misstatement, rather than guessing, that would > be great with me. I appreciate accuracy. Please don't assume the > worst about me. > > Metta, James > *Side note: It is getting harder and harder to find free stuff on the > Internet anymore. Good articles require subscriptions to various web > sites. Nothing good ever seems to last! ;-) 27717 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 3:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi RobM, James, Michael & All, A quick qu. --- robmoult wrote: <..> > In fact, the volunteer meditator used in this study was a layperson > (not a monk) who followed a Tibetian meditation practice. His name > is Robert :-) . .... You’ve also mentioned one or two other scientific reports along similar lines such as in this post: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m18268.html ..... My qu is not about before and after results (I have no doubt there are measurable, scientific changes), but about the conclusions drawn from them. In particular, I question the conclusions about ‘Buddhist’ meditation/practice and inferences about ideas of self and reductions in wrong views/clinging to self in these studies or any measurements of wholesome/unwholesome states of any kind. Of course, subjects may report feeling happier or calmer afterwards or even wiser. These reports may well correlate with observable changes in brain scans and so on. To get to the qu, is there any evidence that the same results wouldn’t have been achieved with yogic pranayama meditation, or Jain/Hindu/Christian/Muslim meditation without any understanding or interest in anatta or wisdom as taught by the Buddha? I think the conclusions of these research articles show more about the understanding of ‘practice’ of those conducting the studies than anything else;-) Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ===== 27718 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 4:23am Subject: Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Dear Chrisitine, While asking yourself whether you can make yoniso manisikara arise what are the dhammas that are present? Is there any hint of idea of being able to control or make things appear as you want them to? If so do such views agree with what the Buddha taught about conditionality and anatta? Only by knowing the present moment in various ways can ditthi be seen, if it is not seen then it will always block insight or even be taken as insight. So thinking is just as conditioned as any other reality , it happens often so should be object of awareness. RobertK In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Yoniso-manasikaara = wise, reasoned, methodical attention or > reflection. > Is it possible to cause wise attention to arise? And what, exactly, > is wise attention as it would be experienced in daily life? How could > one tell wise from unwise attention? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27719 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 4:51am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hello RobertK, RobertK: the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries show and detail how every phenomena is conditioned - except for nibbana. Anusaya are certainly conditioned Michael: Thank you for the very detailed explanation. I wasn't questioning that but just the use of the words 'lying dormant' which may give the impression that you are referring to something that is substantial and not conditioned/impermanent phenomena. Just being picky maybe :) Metta Michael 27720 From: Sarah Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > Yoniso-manasikaara = wise, reasoned, methodical attention or > reflection. > And what, exactly, > is wise attention as it would be experienced in daily life? How could > one tell wise from unwise attention? .... As you know, manasikaara is a universal cetasika (mental factor). The proximate cause is the object and the citta (consciousness) always needs manasikaara to ‘attend to’ or direct to the object. Just as unwholesome cittas must be accompanied by unwise attention in order to experience their objects, wholesome (and other sobhana) cittas must be accompanied by wise attention which is often given as the proximate cause of wholesome states. Just as there are different kinds of wholesome cittas and accompanying sati, samadhi and so on, there are also different kinds and degrees of wise attention accordingly. Wise attention that accompanies dana will have a different object to that accompanying insight, for example. .... > Is it possible to cause wise attention to arise? ..... Who or what would cause it to arise? Is this a hope of finding a loop-hole amongst the 24 conditions, I wonder? I think it’s rather like the questions about intention, contact, concentration and so on. Pls elaborate, Chris, if I’ve misunderstood your question. ..... > And what, exactly, > is wise attention as it would be experienced in daily life? How could > one tell wise from unwise attention? ..... I think it’s very difficult (and not helpful to try) to pin-point exactly ‘this is phassa’, ‘this is manasikara’, ‘this is intention’ and so on. It’s bound to be just thinking about it at these times as we’ve discussed before. Like phassa, it’s nothing like our conventional idea of ‘attending’ or ‘contacting’ as it directs the citta and other cetasikas onto the object. If it’s a moment of generosity, metta or understanding (even if only theoretical right understanding), for example, then clearly the ‘attending’ is wise. If it’s a moment of clinging, aversion of not knowing anything, then clearly the ‘attending’ is unwise. Hope this helps a little. Let us know more about your ideas and what you’ve been reading, Chris, perhaps with a few links;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27721 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 4:59am Subject: RE: [dsg] Jhana and vipassana together Hello Jon, Jon: You asked about jhana and vipassana jhana being 'developed together'. This is the sort of terminology used in the sutta below in reference to the third way of attaining enlightenment ('in tandem', sometimes also translated as 'yoked') Michael: Maybe it was my misunderstadning, I thought together ment simultaneaously. I cannot understand simultaneously. But in tandem, which means one after the other, makes sense to me. Yoked also makes sense meaning that they are tied together but again does not indicate that the development is simultaneous. Metta Michael 27722 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:08am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hello James, James: So, there is the long explanation for why I chose that phrase. It sounds like your memory is not exactly stellar on this matter either. If you would care to find the article and research and officially correct my misstatement, rather than guessing, that would be great with me. I appreciate accuracy. Please don't assume the worst about me. Michael: Please accept my apologies I was not assuming the worst about you, in a clumsy way I tried to be funny. Sorry. The article about the research being done in the US involving Tibetan monks appeared in the Trycicle Magazine not too long ago. There is a DVD called Yogis of Tibet which provides a glimpse of the intense meditation practices followed by some practitioners there. I never heard about something similar in relation to Zen masters in our present days. Metta Michael 27723 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:24am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anusaya --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > Hello RobertK, > > RobertK: > the whole of the Tipitaka and commentaries show and detail how > every phenomena is conditioned - except for nibbana. Anusaya are > certainly conditioned > > Michael: > Thank you for the very detailed explanation. I wasn't questioning that but > just the use of the words 'lying dormant' which may give the impression that > you are referring to something that is substantial and not > conditioned/impermanent phenomena. Just being picky maybe :) > Dear Michael, Thanks, understood:) I want to add as many details as possible, as I would be very happy if you come to see that the monks of old were true to the Dhamma - as recorded in the commentaries of Buddhaghosa, Dhammapala and Anuruddha:) robertk > > .com 27724 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:35am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: . > > Michael: > Please accept my apologies I was not assuming the worst about you, in a > clumsy way I tried to be funny. Sorry. The article about the research being > done in the US involving Tibetan monks appeared in the Trycicle Magazine not > too long ago. There is a DVD called Yogis of Tibet which provides a glimpse > of the intense meditation practices followed by some practitioners there. I > never heard about something similar in relation to Zen masters in our > present days. > > Metta > Michael Hi Michael, Okay, no problem. So, the research was officially on Tibetan monks. Sorry for the misstatement. I either remembered wrong or the article I read stated it wrong (which does happen). That DVD that you mention, `Yogis of Tibet', sounds really interesting. When I get back to the states I will have to search for it. Metta, James 27725 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:49am Subject: Buddhism questions James and everyone else: Thanx for your explanation about killing life. Anyway, can you answer a few more questionx? 1. In many comic strips and cartoons, they give me an image that all monks know a lot of kungfu, that means they know a lot about fighting and karate and Judo and all that stuff. Do you need to know these things in order to become a monk? 2. They also say that monks spend lots and lots of time to practice kungfu on top of hills. Is that true? Is it necessary for you to do it? Thanx for answering. Thanx a lot. Philip 27727 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:52am Subject: Questions Hi James, Thank you for your the letter that you gave me. I have some questions to ask you: 1 Each time when you write you name, why you always put "Metta, James"? Is "metta" part of you name? 2 How old are you? 3 Do you usually have time to play or exercise? 4 Have you ever been to a temple in some places? I will be waiting for your answer. Janet 27728 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:54am Subject: The Buddha Dear James, Thankyou for the brilliant reply! What did the Buddha exactly seek for? Have a good weekend! Metta, Sandy 27730 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Sarah Just a simple question, every now and then, there is this word about wise attention. What is it? Does it equate to panna or sati or both? Vice versa what is unwise attention. >I think it’s very difficult (and not helpful to try) to pin-point > exactly ‘this is phassa’, ‘this is manasikara’, ‘this is >intention’ and so on. In short just tell her dont purposely do it bc any purposedly actions are likely to rise in tandem with self kind regards Ken O 27731 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 5:59am Subject: Response to Cal Carl: Thank you for writing me to tell me about killing in Buddhism. I appreciate it very much. Philip 27732 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 6:01am Subject: The Universe Dear Robert, Do you have any good ideas on why we live on planet earth, why couldn't we live on Pluto, Mercury, Veanis, the moon, or Mars. What do Buddhists think about the reason for life on Earth? From Charles (almost 10 now) 27733 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 6:04am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi RobM, James, Michael & All, > > A quick qu. My qu is not about before and after results (I have no doubt there are > measurable, scientific changes), but about the conclusions drawn from > them. > > In particular, I question the conclusions about `Buddhist' > meditation/practice and inferences about ideas of self and reductions in > wrong views/clinging to self in these studies or any measurements of > wholesome/unwholesome states of any kind. Of course, subjects may report > feeling happier or calmer afterwards or even wiser. These reports may well > correlate with observable changes in brain scans and so on. > > To get to the qu, is there any evidence that the same results wouldn't > have been achieved with yogic pranayama meditation, or > Jain/Hindu/Christian/Muslim meditation without any understanding or > interest in anatta or wisdom as taught by the Buddha? > > I think the conclusions of these research articles show more about the > understanding of `practice' of those conducting the studies than anything > else;-) > > Comments welcome. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ===== > Hi Sarah, I don't completely understand your question. Studies show that those who practice meditation consistently, like Buddhist monks, have more happiness, calm, and less attachment to the idea of self than people who don't consistently practice meditation (like me because I am too busy writing these posts! ;-)). And these differences can be measured with brain scans. Aren't these wholesome states of mind? How could they possibly be considered unwholesome? You write, "I think the conclusions of these research articles show more about the understanding of `practice' of those conducting the studies than anything else;-)" Well, of course. These studies don't really `prove' anything and might be influenced by the preconceptions and expectations of the researchers. For example, I suspect that if you were a scientist and conducted these studies you would come to far different conclusions! ;-)). This is just one bit of information that might be combined with other information later on to form a more complete picture. Science is about forming hypotheses and continually revising those hypotheses. Metta, James 27734 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 6:06am Subject: Re: The Universe Hi Charles, You are getting big! Alex asked the same thing. It is because of kamma that we are born as humans and at this time the earth has the right environment for humans. Does that sound right to you? robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear Robert, > > Do you have any good ideas on why we live on planet > earth, why couldn't we live on Pluto, Mercury, Veanis, > the moon, or Mars. > What do Buddhists think about the reason for life on > Earth? > > From Charles (almost 10 now) > > > 27735 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 6:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hello James, James: That DVD that you mention, `Yogis of Tibet', sounds really interesting. When I get back to the states I will have to search for it. Michael: It is quite interesting although most of what is reported relates to the recent history of Tibet. As I said there are only 'glimpes' on the practices of those yogis, not going into too much depth. But nevertheless worthwhile. You can find the DVD at Amazon. Metta Michael 27736 From: Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 2:02am Subject: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Nina Hi, Nina - I've been thinking over a bit about the Abhidhammic "take" on various matters. I mentioned to you that I *do* study it a bit. Actually, I mull over aspects of it more than I study it, per se. Often this results in my finding elements of it that I think are either superfluous to the Dhamma, or contrary to it, or just silly, as, of course, you have come to see, no doubt with little pleasure. But there is much in Abhidhamma that I find useful as well. One thing that I have come to find quite valuable is its at-the-moment perspective on all matters, and, specifically, on the factors of the eightfold path. In particular, I've been thinking over Right Livelihood. Right Livelihood amounts to Right Intention (and carrying it through) in the area of earning a living. This factor of Right Livelihood, certainly on the face of it, seems to be a conventional notion pertaining to one aspect of how one conducts one's life. And this is true. But there is a more important sense of Right Livelihood, I think, and I suspect you will agree with this. It seems to me that what really happens at all happens at a moment in time, on some occasion. Much of the time one is not engaging in one's occupation, and even when he/she is, the issue of rightness or wrongness doesn't enter in. The issue of rightness or wrongness enters in at times of decision (i.e. volition that is determinative). At the moment (or at the moments) that one chooses (or re-chooses) a livelihood, it is a moment of Right Livelihood or Wrong Livelihood. When one is working, at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work but resists that, that is a moment of Right Livelihood; at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work and does not resist that, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood; at the moment one is inclined to act beneficially through one's work and does so, that is a moment of Right Livelihood; and at the moment one is inclined to act beneficially through one's work but does not, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood. The same applies to Right Action and Right Speech. All of these have their "critical points" occurring at moments in time, on specific occasions, and they are matters, in specific areas, of volition that is immediately expressed in action or is determinative of future action. The rest of the time, there is a sort of "coasting" that is rather neutral. Or so it seems to me. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27737 From: Alan Bell Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 6:37am Subject: Desire and the path to truth .... Dear All, I understand the end to suffering is through the end of desire. However, if I have a desire to be healthy, a desire to meditate twice per day, and parctise Yoga each day, still a desire that need to be eliminated ... ? Thanks in advance, Alan ps - many thanks for the replies on my recent post of ego and self ! 27738 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Anapanasati Sutta Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina (and Michael) - > > In a message dated 12/5/03 12:19:32 AM Eastern Standard Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > > I read it differently: such mighty beings as stream-winners > > >and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry: to > realize the > > fruit of stream-entry, they have realized the path-consciousness > and this is > > immediately followed by the fruition-consciousness. > ========================= > It seems to me that your interpretation is a biiiig stretch > that constitutes an honest attempt on your part to give support to > Abhidhammic and > commentarial positions that just don't make sense as a means of > understanding this > sutta. In particular, the idea of one practicing for > fruition-consciousness > having already had path-consciousness when it is given that the > former > immediately follows the latter makes no sense at all to me. What > sort of "practicing" is that? I think Nina's comments are merely a restatement of the commentaries and Abhidhamma, so if there's any 'biiig stretch' it is in those texts. As to the use of 'practice' to describe the momentary progress from magga citta to phalla citta, we need to understand how the term 'practice' is used in the texts. Generally, it is used to mean progressing along the path, that is, actual insight, particularly for the person who is already a stream enterer or above. The 'path' itself is in fact the four stages of enlightenment. I'm not aware of any instances in the texts of 'practice' being used in the sense that you seem to use it, namely, of something (not itself mindfulness/insight) undertaken in order to arouse mindfulness/insight or other forms of kusala. So a 'streamwinner practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry' is simply a streamwinner progressing to the corresponding fruition moment. Jon > Please look again at the following straightforward, > conventional-language material for possible reconsideration: > > > ... stream-winners > > and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; > once-returners > > and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; > non-returners > > and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; > Arahants and > > those practicing for Arahantship... 27739 From: Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi, Michael (and Robert) - In a message dated 12/6/03 7:52:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Michael: > Thank you for the very detailed explanation. I wasn't questioning that but > just the use of the words 'lying dormant' which may give the impression that > > you are referring to something that is substantial and not > conditioned/impermanent phenomena. Just being picky maybe :) =========================== I believe that "latent/dormant tendencies" rise and fall all the time, with subsequent tendencies being conditioned by previous ones in much the same way as the last mindstate in a "life" conditions the first mindstate of the next, and in much the same way as the motion of one billiard ball conditions the moving af another. It is not a matter of "the same tendency" continuing, though subsequent tendencies are often little different in form/pattern from prior ones. (But I agree that the terminology is off-putting, being suggestive of substantiality and permananence.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27740 From: Alan Bell Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... sorry, what I am trying to get at is - aren't some types of desire 'healthy' and 'necessary' ? Alan >From: "Alan Bell" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... >Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:37:26 +0000 > >Dear All, > >I understand the end to suffering is through the end of desire. > >However, if I have a desire to be healthy, a desire to meditate twice per >day, and parctise Yoga each day, still a desire that need to be eliminated >... ? > >Thanks in advance, Alan >ps - many thanks for the replies on my recent post of ego and self ! 27741 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 8:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > To get to the qu, is there any evidence that the same results wouldn't > have been achieved with yogic pranayama meditation, or > Jain/Hindu/Christian/Muslim meditation without any understanding or > interest in anatta or wisdom as taught by the Buddha? > > I think the conclusions of these research articles show more about the > understanding of `practice' of those conducting the studies than anything > else;-) Here is an extract from "Why God Won't Go Away" (p7) which supports your view: Robert was one of eight Tibetan meditators who participated in our imaging study. Each was subjected to the same routine, and in virtually every case, the SPECT scans showed a similar slowing of activity in the orientation area, occuring during the peak moments of meditation. Later, we broadened the experiment and used the same techniques to study several Franciscan nuns at prayer. Again, the SPECT scans revealed similar changes that occured during the sisters' most intensely religious moments. Unlike the Buddhists, however, the sisters tended to describe this moment as a tangible sense of the closeness of God and a mingling with Him. Their accounts echoed those of Christian mysteries of the past, including that of thirteenth century Franciscan sister Angela of Foligno: "How great is the mercy of the one who realized this union ... I posessed God so fully that I was no longer in my previous customary state but was led to find a peace in which I was united with God and was content with everything. My opinion is that the scientists were observing something and then trying to fit their observations into their religious beliefs. I looked at the same observations and used it to support the validity of anatta, though this interpretation is not even hinted at in the book. Metta, Rob M :-) 27742 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 10:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:millenia and ariyans Hi Howard, a millenia is nothing compared to a kappa or aeon. Actually, we all need a lot of patience to keep on studying, reflecting, being aware. It never is enough. I am busy this weekend hiking and rehearsing for our concert, may write later on about the four pairs of holy people. I have to pull out texts and look at the Pali with Michael! Nina. op 05-12-2003 01:30 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > As soon as I really know (several millenia from now, Nina ;-)), I'll > do that! 27743 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: Christmas --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > > It's Christmas in 20 days, and it's going to be so > exciting.Big feast, Christmas trees, and the presents. > What are the important festeivals in Buddhism? What do > they do to celebrat?What's the theme? > > Refering to the letter you sent to me last time about > rebirth. I've never really felt that during my last > death, if I had one. Is it because this only supposed > to happen to Buddhists? By the way,why can't I say > recarnation? > > > Metta, > Hilary Hi Star Kid Hilary! I am glad that you are getting excited about Christmas coming. It is a nice holiday for children. Personally, I don't like Christmas too much because everyone is so stressed out, and I can sense that. One nice thing about being here in Cairo is that I will miss the whole season! Ho ho ho!! ;-) (My parents call me `The Grinch' at this time of year because I can't wait for Christmas to be over! ;-) The most significant Buddhist holiday is Visaka Puja Day, also known as `Buddha Day', and it is the celebration of the Buddha's birth, enlightenment, and death—which all occurred on the same day: the first full moon day in May (June during leap years). During this holiday I would go to my temple and listen to various dhamma talks and participate in Thai cultural activities. Every temple celebrates this day a little differently. You also ask, "I've never really felt that during my last death, if I had one. Is it because this only supposed to happen to Buddhists?" No, according to Buddhism, this happens to everyone. Don't worry about not remembering, I don't remember my last death either. Most Buddhists don't remember their previous lives. According to the Pali Canon, only those people who achieve high levels of meditation and open certain areas of their mind are able to recall past lives. Many ascetics in the Buddha's time were able to do this but they didn't know what caused all of the lives or how to stop them, until the Buddha reached enlightenment and taught everyone who wanted to know. You also ask, "By the way, why can't I say recarnation?" I didn't tell you not to say reincarnation. Most Buddhists don't use the word `reincarnation' because it gives the idea that a `soul' is reborn into body after body, when that isn't what happens. What happens is that an individual is reborn again and again, which doesn't imply a soul moving from body to body but more a transformation of the same entity that never has a soul or lasting essence. Personally, I am not that strict about the use of either word because people are still going to think what they want to think regardless of the word used. If you want to use the word reincarnation or rebirth, they are both fine by me. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James Ps. You might want to ask Mrs. Abbott how she celebrates `Abhidhamma Day' That is the day that celebrates the occasion when the Buddha is said to have gone to the Tushita Heaven to teach his mother the Abhidhamma. It occurs the first full moon day in October. Mrs. Abbott loves the Abhidhamma! :-) 27744 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 0:41pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... Hello Alan, This link may be of some interest - it was posted on another list and there hasn't been discussion on it, so I'm not sure if there are any glaring errors in the logic and scripture interpretation. It's called "Three Cheers for Tanha" http://www.westernbuddhistreview.com/vol2/tanha.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Bell" wrote: > sorry, what I am trying to get at is - aren't some types of desire 'healthy' > and 'necessary' ? > > Alan > > > >From: "Alan Bell" > >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... > >Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 14:37:26 +0000 > > > >Dear All, > > > >I understand the end to suffering is through the end of desire. > > > >However, if I have a desire to be healthy, a desire to meditate twice per > >day, and parctise Yoga each day, still a desire that need to be eliminated > >... ? > > > >Thanks in advance, Alan > >ps - many thanks for the replies on my recent post of ego and self ! > > 27745 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 2:49pm Subject: Re: Desire and the path to truth .... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Bell" wrote: > Dear All, > > I understand the end to suffering is through the end of desire. > Hello Alan, I'd go one step further here, and suggest that the end of suffering comes thro the ending of ignorance. While there is ignorance about what is real and what is concept, there will be desire, or lobha, and thus clinging. > However, if I have a desire to be healthy, a desire to meditate twice per > day, and parctise Yoga each day, still a desire that need to be eliminated > ... ? > Well, yes.... however I state this warily, bc it is easy to say 'eliminate' but impossible to do if we think we can do this ....ooh! this is sounding a bit zen-ish. Have just returned home from night shift and am a bit muddled headed. What I mean is that to know desire for what it is - just desire, not me, not mine, not myself; desire or lobha is a cetasika which arises with a moment of consciousness and falls away again, very rapidly. By understanding what this moment really is, is, I believe, the only way to 'eliminate' ignorance and therefore end suffering. > Thanks in advance, Alan > ps - many thanks for the replies on my recent post of ego and self ! > > Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 27746 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Sarah, A belated 'thank you' for this message. I remember now, that I read it in a hurry and looked forward to studying it carefully after the weekend. Then, [predictably], I forgot all about it. Thanks for the reminder. The Mahacattarika sutta has always been one of my favourites, I've quoted it several times on dsg. It's time I understood what it says :-) The translation I have (by David Maurice), says "There is right understanding that is good and has good results but yet has some blemishes and so ripens to clinging. It is the opposite of wrong understanding but still has elements of self and thought of self. You have explained, I think, that this is mundane right view (satipatthana). And also, it is the mundane right view of a worldling, not of an ariyan. Ariyan right view, be it mundane or supramundane, does not condition rebirth (ripen to clinging). Then you add: ---------- S: > "MA [the comy] says that this is the right view of insight which understands wrong view as an object by penetrating its characteristic of impermanence, etc, and which understands right view by exercising the function of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." ----------- So it is telling us that mundane insight can have wrong understanding and right understanding as object. (In this context, the significance of 'impermanence' and 'clearing away' escapes me.) ----------- S: > Working back, in footnote 1100 for `pubbangamaa', lit. "the forerunner", he gives: "MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: the right view of insight [as being discussed above], which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, and non-self; and the right view of the path, which arises as a consequence of insight and effects the radical destruction of defilements." ------------- Is this a commentary on the preceding stanza which reads: "And how does right understanding come first? If one realises that wrong understanding is wrong understanding and right understanding is right understanding, then that is one's right understanding." I have been trying to sort this out in terms of wrong, mundane and supramundane views and whether there is one that understands all three. If you can explain it simply, that would be good; otherwise, I'm happy to leave it in the too-hard basket for a while longer. Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi KenH, > > A little more on the Mahacattarika sutta - just my best guess for now with > limited commentary & Pali assistance and even more limited knowledge;-). 27747 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 3:38pm Subject: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Michael, > >KH: Consider the Satipatthana and Anapanasati Suttas; > >These utterly profound teachings are, today, interpreted > >in a way that renders them banal and worthless. > > > MB: Can you briefly explain what you mean? Which are those interpretations > that you are referring to? The interpretations I meant were the ones I referred to as found in the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta. (about jackalls and babies) In my early days of Dhamma study, there were popular Buddhists books telling me how to 'practise satipatthana.' The idea was that I should concentrate on (be mindful of) everything I did in daily life: 'When you are making a pot of tea, know you are making a pot of tea . . as you see the tea pot, know you are seeing the tea pot . . as you reach for it, . . as you feel the elbow straighten . . the fingers straighten . . the touch of the tea pot . . .' These silly, impractical instructions are impossible to comply with for more than a few seconds; More to the point, they are ineffective and counterproductive and they make a mockery of the Dhamma. > MB: I am not sure I follow you here. The object might be the same but the > jhana citta and panna citta are different, two different moments, so they > cannot be simultaneous. > As you know, it is possible for wholesome consciousness to experience unwholesome consciousness. By normal logic, this should not be possible. But, in the billionth of a second (or so) after a dhamma has ceased to exist, the succeeding mental factors can know its characteristics just as clearly as if it were still there. That's all I was trying to describe in my previous message -- vipassana consciousness sharing the same object as the previous jhana consciousness and so, effectively, the two operating together. By the way, these are just my conclusions, I haven't actually seen 'jhana and vipassana in-tandem-development' explained in this way. Kind regards, Ken H 27748 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:14pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hello RobM, I like this post - can you tell me where the reference to akusala kamma patha comes from? When people talk about Kamma and how it makes sense - it is true, it does on paper, and with the simple examples given, and when it is not 'me'. When you compare it to gravity, it seems straight forward - The result of breaking the laws of gravity, in this world, is immediate, predictible, consistent and the result is able to be precisely replicated. However, the law of kamma, on the contrary, isn't immediate, predictable, consistent and the result is not able to be precisely replicated. I can see the type of kamma that gets results right now - shout an obscenity at a tired policeman and predictable things will happen. But we have no proof that bad things happening to good people who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time are vipaka. To state they are could be just 'tidying up the story'. I think a lot about this because it hits me in the face everyday. I'm not sure whether you read this post of mine recently - rather than repeat parts of it again, I'll give the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24985 Anyway, it's something I have to deal with, and the 'adze handle' of not understanding kamma may wear through one day ... metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > A person meticulously plans and executes a murder because of hatred. > > A person is a hired killer. > > A person kills as a momentary crime of passion (i.e. he finds his > wife's lover). > > A person kills in self defence. > > A person kills by accidently backing a truck. > > A person kills because it is their job to execute condemned > prisoners. > > A person kills because they are a soldier and face an enemy on the > field of battle. > > A person kills because they are a judge and the law of the land > requires capital punishement be given out for certain offences. > > In all eight cases listed above, there is a dead body at the end of > the day. In modern society, some of these people are called "bad", > some are "neutral" (doing their job) and the soldier may even be > labeled as a "hero". > > "Justice and fairness" is a social concept that creates a lot of > confusion (that is why we have "judges" to make "judgements"). > > The Buddhist definition of akusala kamma patha, killing has five > constituent factors: > - A living being > - Knowledge that there is a living being > - Desire to kill > - Effort to kill > - Consequential death > > The Buddhist approach makes a lot more sense to me. In fact, my > opinion has no relevance here... kamma is a law of nature, like > gravity. It doesn't matter if I believe in gravity, accept gravity > or "if gravity makes sense to me"... gravity just IS. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27749 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:18pm Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hiya Herman, and all, You can aim any posts you like at me :-) I probably won't notice mild to medium arrows - subtlety and hinting bounces off - polite but direct language usually catches my attention. :-) I understand and agree with your point - about conditionality and dependent origination - because of which there is no fixed static being, everything is a constantly changing process. But still, though beings are changing all the time, and we can talk about moment to moment death and re-birth - there is only one of these moments when the Continuum 'vanishes' from this Plane and leaves a decomposing pile of rupa behind. We are taught that human birth is a rare opportunity to hear the Dhamma with no guarantees that we will be reborn as a human able to hear the Dhamma anytime this next aeon. Just as 'I' am in this predicament, so too are you and other continuums. And it is out of compassion and goodwill towards them (whether presently in human form or not) that in the instant 'I' am aware of any action of mine that can affect them, I try to express compassion and goodwill in that action (or non action). Kamma and its consequences hover in the background continually. Now Herman - as a dhamma-friend, it is my delight :-) to help you overcome this unbecoming (!) dosa towards flies. You might BE one, one-day - and perhaps if you are, it would be better for you to come across the picnic lunch of someone who felt that they had "a sense of awe and wonder for these amazing beings. Let us all do what we can to protect their ability to survive and thrive in the wild". His photos of flies (and a few mossies) are at the link below, they're wonderful! enjoy!:-) (you may have to cut and paste - does anyone know the trick of making l-o-o-ng addresses work?) http://www.photovault.com/Link/Orders/EntomologyInsects/FliesDiptera/O EFVolume01.html metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > This post isn't "aimed" at you in particular, but is just a general > statement about the March Fly discussion. > > It is clear that there are lots of basic presuppositions, and I just > want to challenge some of them. That seems to be what I do best :-) > > We talk about beings. Fair enough. At the level of beings, there are > beings. We call them living beings. But that is not half the story. > Beings are always living-dying beings. To live is to die. To take a > snapshot of a living being is all good and well, but even under the > most safe and nurturing conditions, all living beings die. To view a > life as precious, whether it be a baby or a fly, must entail viewing > it's death as precious. They are inseperable. As a consequence of > selecting only the bit we like, we are constantly very actively > repressing any awareness of the cyclical nature of life/death. > > I think all of us would aspire to a state of goodwill amongst all > beings, but the reality is that the life of beings always takes the > death of other beings as nutriment, so to speak. Life conditions > death, and death conditions life. > > We talk about individual beings. Yet an individual never comes about > on its own. There are no "higher order" beings that did not require > the coming together of at least two other beings. We can conceive of > individual beings, but no being can exist on its own. We talk about > food chains, they are nothing more than life/death chains. > Life/death is very complexly interwoven. > > We talk about individual beings, but we know that the bodies of > beings are in a constant process of dying/regenerating. Take me, for > example. Even as I write this, literally hundreds of thousands of > body cells are dying, and a similar number are coming into being. > There are millions of cells in my body, whose only function is to > hunt out other cells and devour them. > > You recently wrote about samsara-ing, which I liked very much. In > the context of the march fly, seeing it as a seperate living being > only is samsara-ing. Seeing your own body as a seperate living being > only is samsara-ing. The urge to defend or to attack comes from one > source, and that is the belief of seperateness, me against the > world, my life against death. > > I hate flies. > > Peace > > > Herman > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear RobertK, RobM, and all, > > > > It sits better with my idea of justice and fairness that anyone > > involved in the killing of beings should have consequences - and 27750 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Dear RobK, Sarah, KenO and All, I know I am misunderstanding something - and I can't see what it is. When thinking about what yoniso manisikara is, and whether it can be cultivated - the dhammas that are present are variations of 'frustration' 'wanting to progress' 'wanting to be certain of the right path' and, yes, I know, the same old craving ... 'wanting a method'. I know 'no control' has been discussed many times. I intellectually understand there is no self, no 'one' who can make things happen, just nama and rupa, rising and falling away immediately. On this list, people often talk about 'developing' panna, 'developing' right understanding. Can this also not be done? I feel there must be some way of influencing, directing, choosing and intending actions. If *I* can go to work, keep appointments, study dhamma - isn't that being able to choose and act? It can't all be random or accidental... I understand about conditionality (up to a point). My job is the result of conditions (e.g. I need to eat, buy clothes,put a roof over my head;I have sufficient education in the right area to have obtained a position, which was available at the right time, can drive a car, have remained alive and healthy, am sufficient skilled in the duties of the position to be permanently employed .. ad infinitum) If the conditions weren't there would I even have been interested in applying for the job? No. And so, if the conditions weren't there, would I even wish to develop wise attention? And if, because of no self, one can't 'develop' or 'do' anything, how is it that I can choose to read the Dhamma - isn't that a choosing of an object and a focusing of attention? And touching on the Justice and Fairness thread - if 'I' can't choose, how come 'I' get to pay the kammic bill? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear Chrisitine, > While asking yourself whether you can make yoniso manisikara arise > what are the dhammas that are present? Is there any hint of idea of > being able to control or make things appear as you want them to? > If so do such views agree with what the Buddha taught about > conditionality and anatta? > Only by knowing the present moment in various ways can ditthi be > seen, if it is not seen then it will always block insight or even be > taken as insight. So thinking is just as conditioned as any other > reality , it happens often so should be object of awareness. > RobertK > > > In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Yoniso-manasikaara = wise, reasoned, methodical attention or > > reflection. > > Is it possible to cause wise attention to arise? And what, > exactly, > > is wise attention as it would be experienced in daily life? How > could > > one tell wise from unwise attention? > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27751 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Nina Hello Howard, and all, I also would like to hear Nina (or anyone's) ideas on this. While we're waiting for further elucidation, allow me to butt in a little ... I hope I've toned the post down a little (it's been struggling to get out of my drafts folder for 12 hours) - apologies if it is still a little reactive - it's not you in any way Howard, it's the topic. And so, Howard, when you are employed at the Abattoir and are on the Chain Line - it is Right Livelihood for all the millions of moments (sharpening your knives, checking the stun gun, making sure the gutters and pipes to catch run-off are clear) except for those few moments when you actually slaughter the animal? - then it's back to Right Livelihood again until the next being is dragged in front of you? Gosh! the balance sheet at the end of the day is looking pretty good! Pity about the precept - but there I go, silabbata-paramasa strikes again!... :-) The job of Slaughterman in an Abattoir is to kill living beings. How would one *resist* Wrong Livelihood here? I think it does matter how Buddhists make a buck, and certain trades and professions are Wrong Livelihood. If one works in any trade or profession not advised against by the Buddha, then, yes, within a day's work, there is also the possibility of performing kamma by good and bad thoughts, intentions and actions with resultant vipaka. There are, definitely, kinds of Livelihood the Buddha taught were to be avoided. I don't see where the Buddha meant Livelihood was a moment - he seems to have spoken about roles. In 'The Noble Eightfold Path' by Bhikkhu Bodhi: "Right livelihood is concerned with ensuring that one earns one's living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple the Buddha teaches that wealth should be gained in accordance with certain standards. One should acquire it only by legal means, not illegally; one should acquire it peacefully, without coercion or violence; one should acquire it honestly, not by trickery or deceit; and one should acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and suffering for others. The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of livelihood which bring harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: dealing in weapons, in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as slave trade and prostitution), in meat production and butchery, in poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further names several dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under wrong livelihood: practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, and usury (MN 117). Obviously any occupation that requires violation of right speech and right action is a wrong form of livelihood, but other occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, may not violate those factors and yet be wrong because of their consequences for others." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > I've been thinking over a bit about the Abhidhammic "take" on various > matters. I mentioned to you that I *do* study it a bit. Actually, I mull over > aspects of it more than I study it, per se. Often this results in my finding > elements of it that I think are either superfluous to the Dhamma, or contrary > to it, or just silly, as, of course, you have come to see, no doubt with little > pleasure. But there is much in Abhidhamma that I find useful as well. One > thing that I have come to find quite valuable is its at-the-moment perspective on > all matters, and, specifically, on the factors of the eightfold path. In > particular, I've been thinking over Right Livelihood. Right Livelihood amounts to > Right Intention (and carrying it through) in the area of earning a living. > This factor of Right Livelihood, certainly on the face of it, seems to be a > conventional notion pertaining to one aspect of how one conducts one's life. And > this is true. But there is a more important sense of Right Livelihood, I > think, and I suspect you will agree with this. > It seems to me that what really happens at all happens at a moment in > time, on some occasion. Much of the time one is not engaging in one's > occupation, and even when he/she is, the issue of rightness or wrongness doesn't enter > in. The issue of rightness or wrongness enters in at times of decision (i.e. > volition that is determinative). At the moment (or at the moments) that one > chooses (or re-chooses) a livelihood, it is a moment of Right Livelihood or > Wrong Livelihood. When one is working, at the moment one is inclined to act > harmfully through one's work but resists that, that is a moment of Right Livelihood; > at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work and does > not resist that, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood; at the moment one is > inclined to act beneficially through one's work and does so, that is a moment of > Right Livelihood; and at the moment one is inclined to act beneficially through > one's work but does not, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood. The same > applies to Right Action and Right Speech. All of these have their "critical points" > occurring at moments in time, on specific occasions, and they are matters, in > specific areas, of volition that is immediately expressed in action or is > determinative of future action. The rest of the time, there is a sort of > "coasting" that is rather neutral. Or so it seems to me. > > With metta, > Howard 27752 From: Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 4:51pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Nina Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/6/03 10:41:17 PM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Hello Howard, and all, > > I also would like to hear Nina (or anyone's) ideas on this. While > we're waiting for further elucidation, allow me to butt in a > little ... I hope I've toned the post down a little (it's been > struggling to get out of my drafts folder for 12 hours) - apologies > if it is still a little reactive - it's not you in any way Howard, > it's the topic. > > And so, Howard, when you are employed at the Abattoir and are on the > Chain Line - it is Right Livelihood for all the millions of moments > (sharpening your knives, checking the stun gun, making sure the > gutters and pipes to catch run-off are clear) except for those few > moments when you actually slaughter the animal? - then it's back to > Right Livelihood again until the next being is dragged in front of > you? Gosh! the balance sheet at the end of the day is looking pretty > good! Pity about the precept - but there I go, silabbata-paramasa > strikes again!... :-) > The job of Slaughterman in an Abattoir is to kill living beings. > How would one *resist* Wrong Livelihood here? > I think it does matter how Buddhists make a buck, and certain trades > and professions are Wrong Livelihood. If one works in any trade or > profession not advised against by the Buddha, then, yes, within a > day's work, there is also the possibility of performing kamma by good > and bad thoughts, intentions and actions with resultant vipaka. There > are, definitely, kinds of Livelihood the Buddha taught were to be > avoided. I don't see where the Buddha meant Livelihood was a moment - > he seems to have spoken about roles. > > In 'The Noble Eightfold Path' by Bhikkhu Bodhi: > "Right livelihood is concerned with ensuring that one earns one's > living in a righteous way. For a lay disciple the Buddha teaches that > wealth should be gained in accordance with certain standards. One > should acquire it only by legal means, not illegally; one should > acquire it peacefully, without coercion or violence; one should > acquire it honestly, not by trickery or deceit; and one should > acquire it in ways which do not entail harm and suffering for others. > The Buddha mentions five specific kinds of livelihood which bring > harm to others and are therefore to be avoided: dealing in weapons, > in living beings (including raising animals for slaughter as well as > slave trade and prostitution), in meat production and butchery, in > poisons, and in intoxicants (AN 5:177). He further names several > dishonest means of gaining wealth which fall under wrong livelihood: > practising deceit, treachery, soothsaying, trickery, and usury (MN > 117). Obviously any occupation that requires violation of right > speech and right action is a wrong form of livelihood, but other > occupations, such as selling weapons or intoxicants, may not violate > those factors and yet be wrong because of their consequences for > others." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================= Christine, I began my discussion of Right Livelihood by saying: "Right Livelihood amounts to Right Intention (and carrying it through) in the area of earning a living." I went on to say the following: "This factor of Right Livelihood, certainly on the face of it, seems to be a conventional notion pertaining to one aspect of how one conducts one's life. And this is true." I then went on to discuss what I think is the most important aspect of this matter, namely the points at which one does something or can do something about this matter. I pointed out that "The issue of rightness or wrongness enters in at times of decision (i.e. volition that is determinative)." Moments of volition are not rare - they occur all the time. In discussing such moments I began with the decision points that are of greatest importance, namely the points of decision as to choice of occupation. And this is not a one-time thing. This moment of decision recurs again and again. What I said was: "At the moment (or at the moments) that one chooses (or re-chooses) a livelihood, it is a moment of Right Livelihood or Wrong Livelihood." An immoral decision made with regard to choice of occupation, of course, conditions repeated instances of immoral actions stemming from the performance of that job. This is why that moment of decision is the primary one, and was listed first by me. I then went on to point out other moments of decision that are of moral relevance once one already has chosen a particular occupation, good or bad, but the choice of occupation is of primary importance. I, of course, do not consider the choice of butcher as an instance of Right Livelihood. It happens that I eat no meat and no foul for exactly this reason. With regret I admit that I do eat seafood. Christine, are you certain that we are not in agreement on this issue? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27753 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 0:18am Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Thanks Jon, for your answer, and thank you for your question. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Herman > > Now here's a question for you. Given the speed with which clinging > arises when sense-door objects are experienced, what is your > understanding of the means by which it would be possible for a person > to 'not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to dwell > without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful > qualities such as greed or distress might assail him'? > > Jon > My answer will be my interpretation of what seems to be happening only, and I would be very happy for anyone to modify, add or subtract. When awareness arises that there is clinging or grasping, it is possible to intend to not cling or grasp. That intention or decision has effect over a period longer than just the momentary arising of that intention. Sooner or later that intention wears off, and there is grasping or clinging again. At some point of time the awareness of clinging arises again, and the process can repeat if so intended. I was down at the cricket nets this arvo with three of my lads, and I was batting very well. I was aware that I was batting with a very deliberate non-attachment to anything that would come to mind. Thoughts would come and go , nothing would stick. Of course, from the moment the bowler started his run up there was intense concentration on that only, which is very akin to clinging, and also very deliberate (full of intention). I was bowling like crap. I became aware that I was thinking about my bowling action while bowling. From time to time only, I was able to suspend thinking about my bowling action while bowling, and the results were a lot better. But all up I still bowled like crap. Too much thinking, and unable to stop it. My guess is that in the case of cricket, you just have to repeat the required actions so often, that the whole process can occur without any conscious participation. No substitute for practice if you wanna become any good. Peace Herman 27754 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... Hi Alan, Welcome to DSG. Thanks for the good qus. Keep them up! I’m glad to see you got many welcomes and replies to your first post;-) Do you live in England? (I ask because I saw a uk in your first address and I’m from England myself.) Actually we have another lurking friend from England who is also Alan (W) and runs this website where most Nina’s books can be found: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ ..... --- Alan Bell wrote: > sorry, what I am trying to get at is - aren't some types of desire > 'healthy' > and 'necessary' ? and > >I understand the end to suffering is through the end of desire. > > > >However, if I have a desire to be healthy, a desire to meditate twice > per > >day, and parctise Yoga each day, still a desire that need to be > eliminated ? ..... There’s desire as soon as we wake up, see, hear, feel, think about what’s happening and so on. Desire is a natural part of life, but we can begin to see that it’s nature is quite different from that of ‘healthy’ qualities such as kindness, generosity, equanimity or wisdom. As you say, most the activities we pursue in a day would not be pursued without desire. This doesn’t mean we should change our lifestyles, but rather, begin to understand these different qualities in a day. Trying to imitate an arahant (who has no desire) would be an indication of not only desire, but also wrong practice, I think. Any lessening of desire occurs only very gradually and as a result of growth of understanding, not of forced actions motivated by more desire. ..... > >Thanks in advance, Alan > >ps - many thanks for the replies on my recent post of ego and self ! .... I think that whether there is high or low self esteem, the problem is the attachment (or ‘desire’) to oneself and the finding oneself so very important. At these times, there’s no consideration for others, no metta, no generosity and so on. Understanding that in truth there is no self, no being at all, is a condition for more equanimity, more detachment, more metta and other wholesome states.For example, in stead of blaming others for behaving in a certain way, there can be more acceptance that everything occurs by conditions. Metta can be anytime to anyone, even to those conducting wars;-) On your particular qu about self esteem, James wrote a memorable post to a young teenager on the topic of high and low self esteem. I think you’ll enjoy reading about Patty and Dominique. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/17116 (Some of his other gems written to children can be found at this link under: ‘Children, Letters written to’ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah p.s If you’d care to share anything more about your interest in the Buddha’s Teachings and how you found your way here, we’d be glad to hear. ====== 27755 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Clare (?), --- clarehanson2000 wrote: > Thank you James for sharing this point of view. I never met anybody > making claim to no self. No yet anyhow. Besides, who would be a-doin' > the claiming other than a self? Maybe a tape recorder underneath the > tongue? Just teasing. .... ;-) Welcome here as well and thanks for your witty comments. We look forward to more. Maybe it's only a matter of time before there's an I-Pod that can go under the tongue - multi-tasking again;-) Can we persuade you to de-lurk a little more and to tell us a little about your background or where you live? Metta, Sarah p.s We ask everyone on DSG to sign off with a (preferably real) name which we can use to address you. We'd also appreciate it if all new (and old) members would kindly trim posts when replying. ================================= 27756 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:48am Subject: Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Christine, Thanks for your reply. I am suitably chastened by what you had to say about flies :-), and am, as always, very impressed by your research skills. Nice photos of all sorts of marvelous creatures. (I hate how flies go for the eyes of anything, regardless of whether the ability exists to shoo them away - think sick or dying mammals) With regards to the possibility of me becoming a fly. I have unshakeable faith that this will never happen. What may happen is that a fly one time may think "I am" , another time a mosquito may think "I am", and so on. This is not the perpetuation of a specific, individual , seperate "I". The thought "I am" is real enough, but momentary. It occurs anywhere, anytime, all the time. But the "I" as a persisting subject has never been found anywhere by anyone, anytime. (In my sometimes humble, but almost always confident opinion :-)) Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hiya Herman, and all, > > You can aim any posts you like at me :-) I probably won't notice > mild to medium arrows - subtlety and hinting bounces off - polite but > direct language usually catches my attention. :-) > Now Herman - as a dhamma-friend, it is my delight :-) to help you > overcome this unbecoming (!) dosa towards flies. You might BE one, > one-day - and perhaps if you are, it would be better for you to come > across the picnic lunch of someone who felt that they had "a sense of > awe and wonder for these amazing beings. 27757 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Howard Goodness, Howard! You're not still supposed to be up at that time - I rely on you North Americans having a respectable bedtime, so I can drop surprise posts on you while you're asleep and still have hours to think of a riposte to your reply. :-) In hindsight, what I should have done was visit my mother BEFORE I posted to you, not after. Two hours in a very small car with a very large disgruntled dog gets things into perspective very quickly. Looking over your original post, I see straight away what I was reacting to - it was a post by someone about six to nine months ago in which they mentioned (something like) Right Livelihood was a single moment. They may or may not have mentioned or alluded to the abattoir job, but my memory is that they may have, or at least I thought about it at that time, or in response to their post. Is this what the Buddha referred to as 'eel wriggling'? Reading your post closely yet again (and I assure you I did read it about five times previously) to see where I assumed a meaning you didn't intend - I feel it was probably just the flow of the sentence that allowed me to think you were maintaining that Right Livelihood was a mind moment only, period. [For me, though probably not for anyone else, the omission of the bracketed words "(or re-chooses)" and the inclusion of the word 'ALSO' after each mention of Right Livelihood in the quote below, would have dampened any proclivity to jump to erroneous conclusions]. ----------------------- Howard: "At the moment (or at the moments) that one chooses .. [(or re-chooses)] .. a livelihood, it is a moment of Right Livelihood or Wrong Livelihood. When one is working, at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work but resists that, that is a moment of Right Livelihood [ALSO]; at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work and does not resist that, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood; at the moment one is inclined to act beneficially through one's work and does so, that is a moment of Right Livelihood [ALSO]; and at the moment one is inclined to act beneficially through one's work but does not, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood." --------------------- I think that we are in agreement on this issue. :-) Thank you for your restrained and courteous reply. Palms together and deep bow to you Howard. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Christine, I began my discussion of Right Livelihood by saying: "Right > Livelihood amounts to Right Intention (and carrying it through) in the area > of earning a > living." I went on to say the following: "This factor of Right Livelihood, > certainly on the face of it, seems to be a conventional notion pertaining to > one aspect of how one conducts one's life. And this is true." I then went on > to discuss what I think is the most important aspect of this matter, namely the > points at which one does something or can do something about this matter. I > pointed out that "The issue of rightness or wrongness enters in at times of > decision (i.e. volition that is determinative)." Moments of volition are not rare > - they occur all the time. In discussing such moments I began with the > decision points that are of greatest importance, namely the points of decision as to > choice of occupation. And this is not a one-time thing. This moment of > decision recurs again and again. What I said was: "At the moment (or at the moments) > that one chooses (or re-chooses) a livelihood, it is a moment of Right > Livelihood or Wrong Livelihood." An immoral decision made with regard to choice of > occupation, of course, conditions repeated instances of immoral actions > stemming from the performance of that job. This is why that moment of decision is the > primary one, and was listed first by me. I then went on to point out other > moments of decision that are of moral relevance once one already has chosen a > particular occupation, good or bad, but the choice of occupation is of primary > importance. > I, of course, > do not consider the choice of butcher as an instance of Right Livelihood. It > happens that I eat no meat and no foul for exactly this reason. With regret I > admit that I do eat seafood. > Christine, are you certain that we are not in agreement on this issue? > > With metta, > Howard 27758 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi RobM, --- robmoult wrote: > Here is an extract from "Why God Won't Go Away" (p7) which supports > your view: > Robert was one of eight Tibetan meditators who participated in our > imaging study. Each was subjected to the same routine, and in > virtually every case, the SPECT scans showed a similar slowing of > activity in the orientation area, occuring during the peak moments > of meditation. > Later, we broadened the experiment and used the same techniques to > study several Franciscan nuns at prayer. Again, the SPECT scans > revealed similar changes that occured during the sisters' most > intensely religious moments. <...> > > My opinion is that the scientists were observing something and then > trying to fit their observations into their religious beliefs. I > looked at the same observations and used it to support the validity > of anatta, though this interpretation is not even hinted at in the > book. ..... So you are correlating a decreased activity in part of the brain as shown on a SPECT scan (I keep thinking of SPECTRE in a James Bond film;-)) with either a) an understanding of anatta as I think was suggested before or b) the truth of anatta, regardless of any understanding or in spite of a wrong understanding by the participants. If similar decreased activity were to show up after say, a swimming or hiking marathon or yogic meditation, would this lead you to draw the same conclusions? What about reduced heart activity as shown on an ECG? As I say, I have no problem following the studies (how scientific is another qu), but I do have trouble following the conclusions - yours and others I’ve read following other similar research. I’ll be glad for any further clarification. Metta, Sarah ===== 27759 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:58am Subject: Links to questions about nibbana Hi Sarah, I recall that recently while skimming through a number of posts, I saw something there from you re questions in the Vis along the lines of what I had been asking. I didn't reply to your post immediately, and now I can't find it! I don't have a Vis at home, and would appreciate any links you could post. Peace, love and joy Herman 27760 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 2:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi James, Thanks for your comments. --- buddhatrue wrote: > I don't completely understand your question. Studies show that those > who practice meditation consistently, like Buddhist monks, have more > happiness, calm, and less attachment to the idea of self than people > who don't consistently practice meditation (like me because I am too > busy writing these posts! ;-)). And these differences can be > measured with brain scans. Aren't these wholesome states of mind? > How could they possibly be considered unwholesome? ..... I agree that most studies show the subjects reporting more happiness and calm from their meditation practice. In a recent Time magazine article, many of these made interesting reports. As I indicated, my yoga friends, swimming friends or hiking friends would all report the same after an hour or two of their choice activity. My mother would make similar comments after gardening or cooking whilst listening to opera. Now, the Buddhist meditators would in addition report ‘less attachment to the idea of self’, but are you sure this addition to that of other meditators or yogis can be measured on a brain scan? A non-Buddhist meditator (even a T-M one;-)) is likely to show the same scan result, whilst others might report ‘less attachment to the idea of self’ after a couple of hours of reflecting on dhamma here without any meditation. Wholesome/unwholesome......who knows? Can a scan correlate reduced activity with wholesome states? I don’t think so. It might show the same during deep sleep. Are reports about happiness and calm any indication of increased wholesome states? Again, I’d say there’s no scientific or other evidence of this. My yoga friends or mother or a sun-bather might report the same. Reported happiness is usually an indication of increased pleasant feeling which can be wholesome or unwholesome. .... > This is just one bit of information that might be combined with other > information later on to form a more complete picture. Science is > about forming hypotheses and continually revising those hypotheses. ...... I appreciate this and I’m not saying it’s useless and I’m not saying anything about the mind-states or wisdom (or lack of) of the meditators selected. I have no idea about this other than what is reported. I’m merely indicating a difficulty I have with the conclusions. Can you say whether the mind-states are wholesome or unwholesome at this very moment? Is the pleasant feeling now accompanying attachment or wisdom? Doesn't it change all the time? Are you sure it’s always wholesome when you meditate? Metta, Sarah p.s Good letters to the StarKids -never any need to hurry with replies whatever they may say to the contrary;-) ===== 27761 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 2:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > I have been following this thread with great interest and although I > fully > agree with what you {RobM}say, there is something still nagging me and I > cannot > put a finger on it. I think it is unreasonable to assume that only the > mental state of the being who commits the action has a bearing on kamma > and > that the degree of harm caused by the action on others has no bearing on > > kamma. The only thing that comes to my mind is the interconnection of > everything in samsara but at this stage I really don’t know how to > elaborate > this further. .... Did you work out what was nagging you? It occurred to me when I read your post that we need to differentiate between mental states and kamma of the perpetrator and the results of kamma (vipaka) of those experiencing harm. As we know there are many factors involved in receiving results and the primary one is our own kamma performed. Other factors such as the impact from the falling log or bomb are decisive supports only. We had a long discussion on this topic before. If this touches on the nagging issue, I’ll give some links;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27762 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 3:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Herman & All, --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > I recall that recently while skimming through a number of posts, I > saw something there from you re questions in the Vis along the lines > of what I had been asking. ..... I don't have any links, but I'm happy to type it out in sections - a few a day as I'm finding it difficult to select some and leave out others. There are 11 Questions and Answers and they all seem relevant to discussions on nibbana here. I think you'll enjoy them. First ones: ***** VismXV1,67f DISCUSSION ON NIBBANA >[Question 1] Is nibbana non-existent because it is unapprehendable, like the hare's horn? [Answer] that is not so, because it is apprehendable by the [right] means. For it is apprehendable [by some, namely, the noble ones] by the [right] means, in other words, by the way that is appropriate to it, [the way of virtue, concentration, and understanding]; it is like the supramundane consciousness of others, [which is apprehendable only by certain of the noble ones] by means of knowledge of penetration of others' minds. Therefore it should not be said that it is non-existent because unapprehendable; for it should not be said that what the foolish ordinary man does not apprehend is unapprehendable. Again it should not be said that nibbana does not exist. Why not? Because it then follows that the way would be futile. For if nibbana were non-existent, then it would follow that the right way, which includes the three aggregates beginning with virtue and is headed by right understanding, would be futile. And it is not futile because it does reach nibbana. [Q.2] But futility of the way does not follow because what is reached is absence, [that is, absence of the five aggregates consequent upon the cutting off of the defilements]. [A] That is not so. Because, though there is absence of past and future [aggregates], there is nevertheless no reaching of nibbana [simply because of that]. [Q.3] Then is the absence of present [aggregates] as well nibbana? [A] That is not so. Because their absence is an impossibility, since if they are absent their non-presence follows. [Besides, if nibbana were absence of present aggregates too,] that would entail the fault of excluding the arising of the nibbana element with result of past clinging left, at the path moment, which has present aggregates as its support. [Qu.4] then will there be no fault if it is non-presence of defilements [that is nibbana]? [A] That is not so. Because it would then follow that the noble path was meaningless. For if it were so, then, since defilements [can be] non-existent also before the moment of the noble path, it follows that the noble path would be meaningless. Consequently that is no reason; [it is unreasonable to say that nibbana is unapprehendable, that it is non-existence, and so on].< ***** To be contd. I liked this reminder for us foolish, ordinary folks;-): "for it should not be said that what the foolish ordinary man does not apprehend is unapprehendable." Any comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ======== 27763 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Christine, I’ve enjoyed reading all your posts and hope you’ve had a good weekend. As Nina has been saying to Howard, better to bring out our difficulties and objections into the open . I hope the others will add more here. --- christine_forsyth wrote: > > I know I am misunderstanding something - and I can't see what it is. > When thinking about what yoniso manisikara is, and whether it can be > cultivated - the dhammas that are present are variations > of 'frustration' 'wanting to progress' 'wanting to be certain of the > right path' and, yes, I know, the same old craving ... 'wanting a > method'. .... Exactly so and I think it’s a sign of progress when there is some recognition at any level of the present dhammas. Just as you say, mostly ‘wanting’ and more ‘wanting’ in between other equally useless states of frustration and sheer not knowing;-) This state of attending with some awareness to dhammas as they are (rather than how we ‘want’ them to be) is in itself the beginning of the cultivation of wise attention and basic understanding. No one would ‘choose’ the frustration and difficulty. It’s just the way it’s conditioned and in between there are so many sense door processes through the eyes, ears and so on, but when we’re obsessed with the ‘wanting’ there’s no awareness of these other realities at all. .... > I know 'no control' has been discussed many times. I intellectually > understand there is no self, no 'one' who can make things happen, > just nama and rupa, rising and falling away immediately. ..... So we can see that intellectual understanding is a foundation but it’s not enough and there are bound to be plenty of doubts and confusion still. I’m out of time. Hope others respond too. I greatly appreciate your open posts and sharing, Chris. Metta, Sarah p.s hope your mother, brother and youngsters are doing well. We’d love to hear any of Sarah F’s reflections if she can be prompted. Pls ask her to call me when she visits H.K. too. ===== 27764 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 3:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Howard I said I would get back separately on some of the interesting points raised in your post. Thanks for your earlier clarification. <> I'm not with you here. What do you see as being the particular significance/relevance of a rupa being unobserved/unexperienced, in relation to the question of its place of arising? <<(BTW, what *is* an unobserved sight? What does it mean for a sight not to be seen? The very language contradicts itself!)>> As you say, the language implies contradiction, but I think the problem lies in your particular choice of expression 'unobserved sight' here, rather than 'non-experienced visible-object'; and perhaps especially the expression 'a sight' for the Pali 'ruparammana' (visible-object). Consider for a moment audible-object. We may think of the audible-object being experienced through the ears right now as 'different sounds' but that is already *thinking about* the audible-object rather than its direct experience (in terms of Herman's sutta quote, that is an example of the nimitta and anubyanjana). Audible-object is simply the audible data that can be experienced through the ear-door, before there is any recognition of the nature or source of the sound. Likewise, visible-object is that which is experienced through the eye-door, rather than the 'different objects' that are seen (sights). It is the visible data that can be experienced when the eyes are open and that is absent when the eyes are closed. Now I don’t think anyone has any difficulty with the idea of audible-object/sound arising regardless of whether it is the object of our (or someone's) hearing consciousness. The conditions for the arising of sound in this world are unrelated to a being's hearing consciousness -- more to do with the contact of 2 sets of hardness. When those conditions occur, sound arises that is *capable of being* the object of hearing consciousness of a being. Of course, whether or not that sound actually becomes the object of any being's hearing consciousness depends on yet another set of conditions; but only sound that has arisen in the first place can be experienced. Does this sound improbable to you? Likewise with visible-object, its arising in this plane of existence where it is *capable of being experienced* by seeing consciousness does not depend on it actually being the object of a being's experience. The fact that this is more difficult to conceptualise in the case of visible-object than in the case of audible-object perhaps indicates the strong clinging or wrong view that there is to the experience through the eye-door, for all of us. << You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in "Rupaville"! ;-) I say that if, as common sense asserts, there is an external material world of objects such as trees, rocks, air, grass, animal bodies, human bodies, planes, trains, and automobiles, then that is Rupaville!>> Sorry, but I am very much puzzled by this! First, I don’t see why the 'unobserved' rupas are such a problem conceptually while the 'observed' ones apparently are not. Secondly, I don’t see how you get from the 'group of 8 inseparable rupas' of the Abhidhamma to 'objects such as trees [etc]'. Would you say that in asserting the group of 8 inseparable rupas, or the arising of rupas independently of being experienced, the Abhidhamma itself postulates the idea of an 'external material world of objects such as trees [etc]'? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - Jon, to me hardness or an odor or a sight are contents of certain experiences (their objective aspects). As I see it, a hardness or an odor or a sight, if it is something other than that, must occur "somewhere," especially when it arises allegedly unobserved. (BTW, what *is* an unobserved sight? What does it mean for a sight not to be seen? The very language contradicts itself!) You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in "Rupaville"! ;-) I say that if, as common sense asserts, there is an external material world of objects such as trees, rocks, air, grass, animal bodies, human bodies, planes, trains, and automobiles, then that is Rupaville! (This easily accounts for rupas occurring in groups.) But if not, I see there being proposed some unseen and unspecified "rupa realm," an amazing abstraction. If rupas are not features and functions of external physical "things," and they also are not the objective aspects of certain acts of consciousness, then they are disembodied ghosts hanging out in some ghost realm waiting to be somehow contacted by mind. Now, I can see so-called unexperienced rupas as potentials consisting of many, but not yet all, of the conditions needed for the arising in consciousness of a rupa, so that, for example, the occurrence of the sequence of phenomena we call "touching the back of our skull" results in the arising of a hardness, but prior to the occurrence of that sequence of phenomena occurring, that hardness is only a potential. (Some conditions have been met, but not enough.) This would be *one* way of explaining the matter. An objective external world of physical objects would be another. There may well yet be others that are far better than either of these. I have my preference, but I don't insist on it. What I do think is reasonable to insist on, however, is that a claim be backed up by a plausible and verifiable explanation. It seems to me that Abhidhamma and Abhidhammikas are extraordinarily detailed on many points, but at certain critical junctures, get very lax, showing a willingness to say "somehow", or to say "The Abhidhamma says it, so it must be so. Just wait until you have the ability to see it - many millenia from now". With metta, Howard 27765 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Nina I agree with you about Larry's questions, and may I also say the same about your dialogue with him (and with Howard). Most stimulating and very helpful. Jon --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon and Larry, > I appreciate both Larry's question and your answer. I like the > reminder: We > need to be true to ourselves in terms of the extent to which sati > and panna have been developed to date ... > Excellent. > Nina. 27766 From: Date: Sat Dec 6, 2003 11:57pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Nina Hi again, Christine - In a message dated 12/7/03 12:53:00 AM Eastern Standard Time, upasaka@a... writes: > It > happens that I eat no meat and no foul for exactly this reason. > ======================= My spelling must have been Freudian! ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27767 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 5:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] The arising of rupas Howard Thanks for this lengthy explanation in reply to my question. <> (In other words, a rupa has no existence outside a moment of consciousness.) There are many references in the suttas to rupa-khandha. I think that in the context of the upadana-khandhas (khandhas of clinging), it is reasonable to regard rupas as those that are being, or have been or are to be, experienced. However, I don’t rupa as rupa-khandha as having a direct bearing on the question of whether rupas can arise without being experienced. I am not aware of anything in the suttas that points directly one way or the other on this, are you? << ... The business about touching the back of one's head or of being struck by lightning are stories, as I see it, but not groundless ones - they are stories which we associate with patterns of actual experiences in various mindstreams.>> I gave an example in conventional terms simply to make it easier to relate to. Let me put the question then in terms of fundamental phenomena. If rupas do not arise (unexperienced) in this world in the first place, then what are the conditions , what is the 'trigger', by which a rupa becomes the object of consciousness? In any event, you still haven't said why you see your preferred alternative scheme as a more likely, more plausible, explanation than the explanation that rupas arise in this world independently of being experienced (one of the easier to accept aspects of the Abhidhamma, I'd have thought!). It occurs to me that the problem may lie in the fact that this is something you regard as unverifiable, and that in such cases you are inclined to reject the possibility of the assertion being true. I believe this would be a grave mistake. Much of what the Buddha said, even in the suttas, is unverifiable for us at the present time or ever (i.e., is verifiable only by a Buddha or the great disciples). I think Nina gave the example of the law of kamma, and I'm wondering how you feel about that? Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... I understand and sympathize with your question, but I think it presumes a world of external objects that are merely conceptual projections. All that I take for "real" (or, better, "actual") are experiential conditions in some mindstream or other. Prior conditions, provided certain ones of them (and enough of them) have occurred, constitute what we might call a potential rupa (or a potential for a rupa), but a rupa, itself, is the content of an experience occurring in some mindstream. The business about touching the back of one's head or of being struck by lightning are stories, as I see it, but not groundless ones - they are stories which we associate with patterns of actual experiences in various mindstreams. But, as I said, this phenomenalist position, though one which I accept, is not something I know to be true. There could be a hidden, unobservable something lurking behind experience - but it is neither known nor knowable. ... 27768 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 5:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Act of consciousness Herman OK, enough discussion about conceptual frameworks. Too conceptual for me! I'll agree to play by your rules, i.e., no requests for explanation of terms or intended meaning. (Wait a minute. Isn't that also a conceptual framework?) Here's my attempt at an answer to your original question, which was: <> At a superficial level, I would answer 'yes', most of our experiences are without reference to or in terms of other things. At another level I would answer 'No", in that from time to time it is noticeable that there is comparing, evaluating and judging going on, and it seems that this is a continuous and pervasive aspect of our consciousness. At yet another level, I would answer 'Yes' because, as I understand the teachings, at a moment of sense-door experiencing there is no reference to other things -- that comes in the following mind-moments. And finally, a 'No' answer is possible, in the sense that all objects of experience are compared with previous objects experienced and this is how objects are identified and recognised. Oh, hang on, 'Yes' if it's panna that experiences the object and knows it truly as it is. As you can see, I've tried to give you a fair range of answers in the hope that 1 of them falls within the non-existent conceptual framework that was nowhere in your mind ;-)) Jon --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Jon, ... > I agree with what you are saying. A conceptual discussion requires > an agreed frame of reference. > > The difference in this case is that "what is experienced" does not > become clearer viewed through a conceptual framework, it becomes > unclearer. It becomes the conceptual framework, actually. So what > is > required is a negative framework, one that negates any hint of an > implicit reality of the selected relations that are made between > selected sensations. > > Such a framework will not allow for a discussion of "what is > experienced". Such a framework would lead to the unbinding of all > the constructs that allow a discussion to take place. > > There is an unbridgable gap between the idea of experiencing > things, and experiencing things. > > It doesn't really matter who'se idea of experiencing things we use, > as long as it is seen that the idea is not so, we can all be quiet > about it :-) > > > Peace > > > Herman 27769 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 5:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consciousness as object Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... As I understand what you have said here, there is no practice taught by the Buddha other than studying what he said, reflecting on it, and relating it to the present moment. Of course, and here I am following what your general approach seems to be, doing these three things either will happen or won't happen, but is not something that can be controlled. And, thus, to sum up: There is no practice. How am I doing? ;-) Jon: You're doing fine ;-)). But I would say you place a lot of significance on whether it can or cannot be said that there is a practice. I think that 'practice' is one of those words that has a multitude of possible meanings, and can easily be misunderstood. In my view it's more fruitful to look at/talk about exactly what the Buddha said to be the necessary conditions for the development of the path. I gave my understanding of these in the post to which you were replying. To summarise, I see them as being the following: - hearing the true dhamma - reflecting on what one has heard - relating what one has come to understand intellectually to the present moment, Furthermore, I understand the Buddha to be saying that each of these needs to occur repeatedly and often. I also see it as important to realise that: - these factors/conditions are capable of occurring at any time regardless of the nature of the current activity, - the fruit of that development, in the form of a level of awareness of a presently arising dhamma, may occur at any time, not necessarily related to any present conscious intention to apply/study/practice the teachings. In a subsequent post to Nina you gave some comments of your own on this subject: <> It would be helpful to have a specific reference. However, if I may speak in general terms too, there is usually more than 1 possible interpretation open on the plain meaning of the language of the suttas. For example, I presume you would agree that any exhortation in a sutta to 'train yourselves' must be read with the implicit assumption that what is being referred to are kusala mindstates. I have reservations about a reading of such references as meaning an exhortation to 'exercising volition' in doing certain acts. To give an example, if a person in whom neither mindfulness or other form of kusala is present decides/determines/resolves to 'exercise volition in [attaining] mindfulness', that is likely in my view to be akusala, for the reason so aptly put by Ken O in his post to Sarah, namely, that any purposefully done action is likely to rise in tandem with self. This as I see it is the crucial difference between mindfulness arising as the result of the kind of conditions I mention above and any deliberate attempt to have mindfulness. Again speaking generally, in reading the suttas, we need to recognise the special case of those monks in the Buddha's time or shortly after for whom sati and panna had already been developed to high levels such as the level of a faculty or a power. Such monks were persons who truly could 'set mindfulness to the fore', as we find mentioned in the Satipatthana Sutta. But for us there is no such possibility, I believe. The crux of the difference between us here is the conditions for the arising of kusala, particularly satipatthana/vipassana. To my understanding, the factors I have cited above are much more crucial to this aim than any decision to 'exercise volition' in doing anything. And personally I don’t see that it matters whether or not these fall within the usual meaning of 'a practice'. Jon 27770 From: Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 0:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Howard Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/7/03 4:54:44 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Goodness, Howard! You're not still supposed to be up at that time - > I rely on you North Americans having a respectable bedtime, so I can > drop surprise posts on you while you're asleep and still have hours > to think of a riposte to your reply. :-) > -------------------------------------------- Howard: We were in the midst of what was, for Long Island, a bit of a blizzard, especially for so early in the winter season. (We have close to 2 feet of snow now, and it is first winding down to only snow showers.) My son's fiancee has been staying over since Friday evening (the snow began Friday afternoon), and so we were all up late. --------------------------------------------- In hindsight, what I should > > have done was visit my mother BEFORE I posted to you, not after. Two > hours in a very small car with a very large disgruntled dog gets > things into perspective very quickly. > > Looking over your original post, I see straight away what I was > reacting to - it was a post by someone about six to nine months ago > in which they mentioned (something like) Right Livelihood was a > single moment. They may or may not have mentioned or alluded to the > abattoir job, but my memory is that they may have, or at least I > thought about it at that time, or in response to their post. > Is this what the Buddha referred to as 'eel wriggling'? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I can understand your interpreting my post as you did. I recall the original posting, and I recall that I took exception to it as well. I think now that the post we recall had a germ of correctness to it, but was not formulated to properly bring that aspect out. ------------------------------------------------- > > Reading your post closely yet again (and I assure you I did read it > about five times previously) to see where I assumed a meaning you > didn't intend - I feel it was probably just the flow of the sentence > that allowed me to think you were maintaining that Right Livelihood > was a mind moment only, period. [For me, though probably not for > anyone else, the omission of the bracketed words "(or re-chooses)" > and the inclusion of the word 'ALSO' after each mention of Right > Livelihood in the quote below, would have dampened any proclivity to > jump to erroneous conclusions]. > ----------------------- > Howard: "At the moment (or at the moments) that one > chooses .. [(or re-chooses)] .. a livelihood, it is a moment of Right > Livelihood or > Wrong Livelihood. When one is working, at the moment one is inclined > to act > harmfully through one's work but resists that, that is a moment of > Right > Livelihood [ALSO]; > at the moment one is inclined to act harmfully through one's work and > does > not resist that, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood; at the moment > one is > inclined to act beneficially through one's work and does so, that is > a moment of > Right Livelihood [ALSO]; and at the moment one is inclined to act > beneficially through > one's work but does not, that is a moment of Wrong Livelihood." > --------------------- > I think that we are in agreement on this issue. :-) Thank you for > your restrained and courteous reply. Palms together and deep bow to > you Howard. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you for so carefully rereading my post in the light of my further explanation. If I may, I'd like to add a further word or two: Livelihood/occupation, the same as almost everything we usually talk about, is a conventional object. Literally, livelihood is nothing that can be touched, seen, tasted, etc, but there is a host of interrelated phenomena, specifically human actions, that are covered by the idea. The conventional speech of the Buddha's describing right and wrong occupations is *true* speech. We use true, but "non-ultimate" language all the time. When, for example, I say there is about two feet of snow on the ground right now where I am, this statement is packed with conventional notions, but it is completely true. What makes it conventional, and not ultimate, speech is that it is a complex, layered structure of ramified abbreviations and linguistic shortcuts that expresses a network of interrelated "ultimate" facts in a manner suitable for practical communication. I find it is often important to do a bit of "unpacking" of such language to reveal aspects of the reality being conveyed that may be somewhat covered up by the linguistic form. In the case of Right Livelihood, Right Speech, and Right Action - the "Right" terminology really comes down to meaning "moral", and morality is a matter of volition. It enters in exactly when decisions are made, and that, as you have gone to the effort to see, much appreciated by me, is the point I was after and some details of which I was trying to lay bare. ----------------------------------------------- > > metta and peace, > Christine ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27771 From: Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Vis. XIV 42 Hi, Jon - In a message dated 12/7/03 6:57:59 AM Eastern Standard Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Howard > > I said I would get back separately on some of the interesting points > raised in your post. Thanks for your earlier clarification. > > < other than that, must occur "somewhere," ... > > Yes, I understand the Abhidhamma to hold that rupas, both experienced > and non-experienced, do arise in this world. I'm not sure what it > says about their exact place of arising, but I would assume that the > place of arising of all rupas in a group of 8 is the same (regardless > of whether 1 of them is an experienced rupa). Is there a problem > with such a scenario, in your view? > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: I have a problem with viewing hardness as neither content of consciousness (the phenomenalist take) nor property of a physical object (the materialist/objectivist take). I don't know what such a "thing" is supposed to be. A kind of ghost hanging out in a rupa realm, I suppose. ----------------------------------------------------- > > <<... especially when it arises allegedly unobserved.>> > > I'm not with you here. What do you see as being the particular > significance/relevance of a rupa being unobserved/unexperienced, in > relation to the question of its place of arising? > > <<(BTW, what *is* an unobserved sight? What does it mean for a sight > not to be seen? The very language contradicts itself!)>> > > As you say, the language implies contradiction, but I think the > problem lies in your particular choice of expression 'unobserved > sight' here, rather than 'non-experienced visible-object'; and > perhaps especially the expression 'a sight' for the Pali > 'ruparammana' (visible-object). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that the use of the language "visible-object" as a solution is a pseudo-solution! I see it as a substantialist approach, presuming the existence, somewhere, of some "thing" called a "visible object" that exists "out there" in some realm of "visible objects", and with which "consciousness," existing in its own realm, somehow comes into contact, analogous to the old billiard-ball model of interactions among separate physical things that Newtonian physics provided for in its view of the "material world." I, quite frankly, think that the terminology of a "sight" is far better than that of "visible object," far less prone to a substantialist reading. As far as I'm concerned, sights are nothing if not seen. Visual consciousnesses have no nature other than seeing, and sights have no nature other than being seen, and they are mutually dependent. ------------------------------------------------------ > > Consider for a moment audible-object. We may think of the > audible-object being experienced through the ears right now as > 'different sounds' but that is already *thinking about* the > audible-object rather than its direct experience (in terms of > Herman's sutta quote, that is an example of the nimitta and > anubyanjana). Audible-object is simply the audible data that can be > experienced through the ear-door, before there is any recognition of > the nature or source of the sound. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Unheard sound, except in physics theory (a conventional model) and commonsense (a conventional model), is unknown and unknowable, and is, to me, meaningless. If one talks about an external medium such as air or water vibrating, and about sound waves passing through that medium, a wave consisting of the medium alternatingly condensing and expanding, and then that wave making contact with an ear drum, and messages then being transferred by nerves to the brain, etc, etc, etc, then one is talking stories, stories drawn from the tales of physics and physiology. These are not groundless stories - they do correspond to phenomenal reality in some manner, because that have rather good predictive capacity. If you wish to invest reality in these materialist models, that's fine. I merely consider that they are useful predictive models, not unlike a mathematical equation being a useful predictive tool. ----------------------------------------------------- > > Likewise, visible-object is that which is experienced through the > eye-door, rather than the 'different objects' that are seen (sights). > It is the visible data that can be experienced when the eyes are > open and that is absent when the eyes are closed. > > Now I don’t think anyone has any difficulty with the idea of > audible-object/sound arising regardless of whether it is the object > of our (or someone's) hearing consciousness. The conditions for the > arising of sound in this world are unrelated to a being's hearing > consciousness -- more to do with the contact of 2 sets of hardness. > When those conditions occur, sound arises that is *capable of being* > the object of hearing consciousness of a being. Of course, whether > or not that sound actually becomes the object of any being's hearing > consciousness depends on yet another set of conditions; but only > sound that has arisen in the first place can be experienced. Does > this sound improbable to you? > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I do not countenance the existence of sights, sounds, hardnesses, etc that occur except as objects of awareness in various mindstreams, because what is not experiential is exactly that - not experiential and in principle unknowable. So, the bottom line on this issue, Jon, is that we disagree on it. ------------------------------------------------- > > Likewise with visible-object, its arising in this plane of existence > where it is *capable of being experienced* by seeing consciousness > does not depend on it actually being the object of a being's > experience. > > The fact that this is more difficult to conceptualise in the case of > visible-object than in the case of audible-object perhaps indicates > the strong clinging or wrong view that there is to the experience > through the eye-door, for all of us. > > < ;-) I say that if, as common sense asserts, there is an external > material world of objects such as trees, rocks, air, grass, animal > bodies, human bodies, planes, trains, and automobiles, then that is > Rupaville!>> > Sorry, but I am very much puzzled by this! First, I don’t see why > the 'unobserved' rupas are such a problem conceptually while the > 'observed' ones apparently are not. Secondly, I don’t see how you > get from the 'group of 8 inseparable rupas' of the Abhidhamma to > 'objects such as trees [etc]'. Would you say that in asserting the > group of 8 inseparable rupas, or the arising of rupas independently > of being experienced, the Abhidhamma itself postulates the idea of an > 'external material world of objects such as trees [etc]'? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: No. -------------------------------------------------- > > Jon ============================ With metta, Howard > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > Jon, to me hardness or an odor or a sight are contents of > certain experiences (their objective aspects). As I see it, a > hardness or an odor or a sight, if it is something other than that, > must occur "somewhere," especially when it arises allegedly > unobserved. (BTW, what *is* an unobserved sight? What does it mean > for a sight not to be seen? The very language contradicts itself!) > You seem to be saying that unobserved rupas occur in "Rupaville"! ;-) > I say that if, as common sense asserts, there is an external material > world of objects such as trees, rocks, air, grass, animal bodies, > human bodies, planes, trains, and automobiles, then that is > Rupaville! (This easily accounts for rupas occurring in groups.) But > if not, I see there being proposed some unseen and unspecified "rupa > realm," an amazing abstraction. If rupas are not features and > functions of external physical "things," and they also are not the > objective aspects of certain acts of consciousness, then they are > disembodied ghosts hanging out in some ghost realm waiting to be > somehow contacted by mind. Now, I can see so-called unexperienced > rupas as potentials consisting of many, but not yet all, of the > conditions needed for the arising in consciousness of a rupa, so > that, for example, the occurrence of the sequence of phenomena we > call "touching the back of our skull" results in the arising of a > hardness, but prior to the occurrence of that sequence of phenomena > occurring, that hardness is only a potential. (Some conditions have > been met, but not enough.) This would be *one* way of explaining the > matter. An objective external world of physical objects would be > another. There may well yet be others that are far better than either > of these. I have my preference, but I don't insist on it. What I do > think is reasonable to insist on, however, is that a claim be backed > up by a plausible and verifiable explanation. It seems to me that > Abhidhamma and Abhidhammikas are extraordinarily detailed on many > points, but at certain critical junctures, get very lax, showing a > willingness to say "somehow", or to say "The Abhidhamma says it, so > it must be so. Just wait until you have the ability to see it - many > millenia from now". > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27772 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 6:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello Sarah, Sarah: Did you work out what was nagging you? It occurred to me when I read your post that we need to differentiate between mental states and kamma of the perpetrator and the results of kamma (vipaka) of those experiencing harm. As we know there are many factors involved in receiving results and the primary one is our own kamma performed. Other factors such as the impact from the falling log or bomb are decisive supports only. Michael: Lets assume that two individuals are going to perform the exact same task, dropping a bomb, and both at the moment of performing the task have exactly the same consciousness and mental factors present, and they are aware of the possible consequences and have the intention to kill. In the first case no one is hurt because the bomb misses the target, in the second countless people die. In both cases they are unaware of the consequences of their action. In accordance to what has been discussed in the list, the kamma created by both would be exactly the same because it only depends on their mind states. Well this is what is nagging me. I think this is not correct. I don’t know exactly why, but my suspicion is because it views each individual as separate and isolated and only matters what happens within each consciousness stream, it ignores the interconnection with all other beings/phenomena, etc. If there are any related past messages I would appreciate if you could point me to them. Metta Michael 27773 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 7:14am Subject: Re: Question on ego and self .. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > Thanks for your comments. Hi Sarah, It is okay if you question the conclusions of these studies. I just consider them an interesting bit of information and then go on with my life. The area of brain research is so new and contains so much guesswork that nothing is conclusive. I do not believe that anyone should begin a meditation practice or continue a meditation practice because of one of these articles. That would definitely be counterproductive. I believe that the best motivation is when a person has hit rock bottom. By that I mean they realize that nothing in life is satisfying, even reading about the dhamma, and there is nothing else left to do but sit and get to the root of the problem. You obviously haven't hit rock bottom yet; reading and studying the dhamma is personally satisfying to you and enough. It isn't enough to me, but it does help to keep me on the right track (most of the time ;-). Over the years I have started and stopped my meditation practice and what always pulled me away was the false belief that life held some satisfaction for me, and the thing that always brought me back was when I realized that that was a false hope. Meditation has transformed my life and the person that I am, and I know that no scientific studies are going to be able to prove that. You just have to do it…when there is nothing else left to do. Metta, James Ps. I will get to the Star Kids letters as I have time and feel inspired. They have written quite a few lately! ;-) (Philip's questions about monks learning Kung Fu on hilltops is really priceless! ;-)) I have learned to take down the numbers so that they don't get buried and lost ;-). 27774 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 7:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Christine I was hoping Sarah will respond more bc she and RobK always got very good materials on the back of their sleeves. The word oftenly used by Buddha "Monks this is how you should train yourself" always imply a meaning of a purposedly intended volition. However since Buddha always stress about anatta, then is he contradicting himself. To me, there is no contradiction. When Buddha exhort us to train in this way, to me, IMO, he does not say we must purposedly train in this way. His view should be seen as when one meet this circumstances, one can practise this way, this process of thought, this method of discernment. He does not say go and purposedly meet this circumstance in order to practise this method. Anyway there is no need to purposedly meet a circumstance bc circumstance always come to us, one good example is that our senses are always bombarded by different objects, they are the conditions for our condition to train ourselves. There is no need to go and do something as it is around us every minute of our waking moments. When we think we need to do something is just bc we are not mindful of the moment, this should a state that our mind is full of mental restlessness which is more of moha rather than panna. kind regards Ken O 27775 From: Kom Tukovinit Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 8:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Buddhist Dear Star Kid Janice, My trip to Thailand was very nice. I got to spend a lot of time with my family, which is always a plus ;-). I enjoyed it very much. Thanks for asking! Kamma is giving results constantly in one's life. To be born a human is the result of a good kamma. Have you noticed that for most animals in the world, their living conditions are not as good as yours? There are a few exceptions (I know dogs who live like kings!), but animals have very harsh lives. Our experiences through the 5 senses (eye, ear, nose, tongue, and body) are results of kamma. When you see something pleasant and good (like good TV show), that is a result of a good kamma. When you hear something pleasant and good (like music you like), that is a result of a good kamma. This is the same for the other 3 senses. Would you rather experience something pleasant or unpleasant? Good kamma helps you to experience pleasant things. In the Buddha's time, people become a monk in many different ways. Nowadays, in Thailand, one becomes a monk by requesting to a group of monks in Pali, in a ceremony that turns a normal person into a monk. Monks have very strict rules of conducts, so that they can better their mind, and so that other people would have faith in them. They wear the robe (clothing) that is the symbol of those people who have purified their minds and no longer have any greed, anger, or delusion. I don't think having a statute of the Buddha is a requirement for a Buddhist. On the other hand, some people have the images of the Buddha to remind themselves of the purity the compassion, and the wisdom of the Buddha. How's your school work nowadays? More interesting than last year? kom > -----Original Message----- > From: Star Kid [mailto:starkidsclub@y...] > Sent: Friday, December 05, 2003 2:31 AM > To: dsg > Subject: [dsg] Buddhist > > > > Dear Kom, > Thank you for the letter you sent me! How was > your trip to Thailand? Did you enjoy yourself? Well I > have some new questions for you: > 1: When does the Kamma help you? > 2:How do normal people become monks? > 3:Does every Buddhist have a Buddha statue at > home? > Metta, > Janice 27776 From: Alan Bell Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 8:34am Subject: Desire and the path to truth .... and Alan's intro ... >Hi Alan, > >Welcome to DSG. Thanks for the good qus. Keep them up! I’m glad to see you >got many welcomes and replies to your first post;-) Do you live in >England? (I ask because I saw a uk in your first address and I’m from >England myself.) Actually we have another lurking friend from England who >is also Alan (W) and runs this website where most Nina’s books can be >found: Hi Sarah and all, Yes - I am from England. Liverpool in fact. >p.s If you’d care to share anything more about your interest in the >Buddha’s Teachings and how you found your way here, we’d be glad to hear. I came to be a student and practitioner of the dharma about two years ago. I was a stressed out IT manager, who through conditioning was focussed more on money, the big house, nice car etc etc (still had loving relationships though :-)) but just wasn't satisfied with the material life, that so commonly has no meaning, thus leading me to a spiritual path ... I started to practise Yoga and was amazed at the personal transformation. I then ventured to the Manchester Buddhist Centre, and attended a couple of courses on meditation. However, I then stopped attending the centre and since then had focussed more on my Yoga practice (with meditation) for the last 12 months. The main reason for stopping my attendance was that I was not interested in the ritual and devotional teachings that where practised at the centre. My main interest is in the practical element of meditation and dharma practise, and less on the 'religious' element of buddhism. Again, more recently I have re-kindled my interest in the dharma and zen to complement my yoga practice. I must admit I do miss talking to like minded people (of a spiritual nature) as I am so often surrounded by people with closed hearts (poor souls) which does indeed make ones' practise more difficult some times, as I do like to share experiences along the way. I must admit my heart is sometimestorn though between the desire of concentrating more fully on a zen buddhist path or deeper yogic path, as I think it is difficult (as one gets more advanced) to expend energy on both - I would be interested to know what people thought of this statement ?!! For instance, decisions need to be made on the type of retreats to attend :-) yoga or zen ? Anyway, that's my little intro ... in light, Alan 27777 From: Htoo Naing Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 8:47am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 07 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, As he has decided, the Dhamma practitioner is going to sit in meditation. He has just finished his early morning routine of toileting, washing, brushing, bathing, dressing, paying homage to triplegem. Now he sits in cross-legged and he puts his palms on his feet and now he is in lotus position. His eyes are closed. He starts to breathe in. He breathes in and then he breathes out. He is focusing on his breath. He knows he is breathing. If his breath becomes long he knows it as long and if short, he knows it as short. If there is a pause, he knows the pause. He knows the whole breath and he is concentrating on his breath. He is not wandering around on sensual thinkings. He is not on thinking of hatred. He is well concious to his breath and well focused. He is well alert and very light and ready to respond to the subtlest thing. He is well confident in the practice. He is breathing in and breathing out. He is well calm and tranquilized. He sits still for a long time. All his mind arising at each moment are on his breath and the whole breath. As soon as a mind finishes to know the breath of incoming, next mind takes the breath again. There is no drop out between arising of each mind which are put on the breath. He knows the whole breath. He is well calm and tranquilized and he feels joyful and rapture takes him and he is well in the breath meditation. He even did not recognize how long has lapsed as a time measure. But as an initial practice he times his meditation with an alarm clock for an hour section. When the alarm sounds, he knows the alarm and he starts to focus on his mind moving around the changes in his position. He is intending to stand up. He knows that and he stands. He knows his legs stretch and he knows he arises and he is standing but his eyes are still closing. He knows he wants to open his eyes and then opens and knows that he sees things nearby. In the next hour he will be doing walking meditation. May you all practise Mahasatipatthana as a tool to get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing 27778 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Path & Fruit Hi Howard, Michael and all, good point, Howard. Original issue: 1. the four pairs: does it refer to enlightened ones? Yes, this is stock, and I looked at Masefiled co trans. They are all of them enlightened. Follewed by more issues: 2. why four pairs of men, and is this the same as the eight lokuttara cittas as taught in the Abhidhamma. 3. Is the transition of path-consciousness to fruition-consciousness a development and in what sense? op 05-12-2003 16:33 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> as I wrote to Michael, in the suttas we find : four pairs of men. In the >> abh: the lokuttara cittas are enumerated as eight four maggacittas and four >> phalacittas. The meaning is the same. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > The meaning may well be the same, or perhaps not. In the suttas it > seems that each pair consists of one training for a stage of enlightenment > (e.g. > path in preparation for once returner), and the fruit of that training (the > stage of once returner). In Abhidhamma, there are the notions, never clearly > spelled out, BTW, of path consciousness and fruition consciousness. N: The Co to the Dhammasangani, (T.O. Wijeratne), Ch I, p. 43: Then the same is said of the other stages of enlightenment. It is said that this can be explained by thousand methods, taking into account jhanafactors, right efforts, etc. p. 148: it is explained that the phalacitta follows immediately. My remarks: it is , akalika, no pause in between. I see many times in this co that it is said: the citta or the citta of that person. If we see that person as momentary we do not fall over it. Let us think of the Vis. quote: < life, pleasure, pain, all in one moment that flicks by. > Dying-consciousness falls away and is immediately followed by rebirth-consciousness, and then there is a different person, though conditioned by preceding lives. This will help us to understand the Abhidhamma. Howard, I know you appreciate the momentary aspect, and this will also be helpful concerning this issue. There is no conflict here. The person who attains enlightenment of the first stage is born anew, the ariyan birth. He is a different person, some of the latent tendencies are eradicated. It is a momentary birth. The lokuttara magga-citta. Some time ago we discussed M II, no 56, Upalisutta: he listened to the Buddha, and attained enlightenment, of the stage of the sotapanna: he had I remarked before that this is daily life: lokuttara citta arises just in a moment and falls away. Upali knows that he must go on developing understanding, and, in his daily life. He was not clinging to lokuttara citta. He had unshakable confidence in the Dhamma, no more doubt. And: without another's help! We have to develop understanding ourselves. Good friends help much but we should not cling to them. Finally we are on our own. This text impresses me very much. He became another person, but just one moment. One of the stock phrases is also: he had the dustless eye of dhamma. This can pertain to the first three stages, as I read in the Co. See also Human Types of the Abhidhamma: Ch VIII p. 103: What are the four persons identifiable with the path and who are the four identifiable with the frtuits? The stream-attainer and one who proceeds to realise the fruition stage...> and so on for the other stages. Now we come to the third issue: and this concerns the way the text is translated. Michael is my fellow student on the Pali list and let us look at the Pali: I quoted Masefield: < the one practising (pa.tipajjamaano) with the aim of setting before him at first hand the sotaapatti-fruit> Now pa.tipajjati is: entering upon a path, walking along it. Human Types transl has: he proceeds to realize. That is all. Another word, pa.tipatti is often translated by practice. This is a different word. This is what Jon just pointed out: We have to think of moments again. It is very clear to me, but some translations are confusing. It shows that Pali is indispensable if we want to go into the deep meaning of the texts. Nina. 27779 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 11:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood and Abhidhamma/Nina Hi Howard, Tthank you for your thoughtful post. op 06-12-2003 16:02 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I've been thinking over a bit about the Abhidhammic "take" on various > matters. I mentioned to you that I *do* study it a bit. Actually, I mull over > aspects of it more than I study it, per se. N: That is the right attitude. H: Often this results in my finding > elements of it that I think are either superfluous to the Dhamma, or contrary > to it,...One thing that I have come to find quite valuable is its at-the-moment perspective > on all matters, and, specifically, on the factors of the eightfold path. N: Here you come to the essence, the momentary aspect. So, as Sarah said, your points (pet peeves if you like) are useful for all of us. Do continue, there are not many who come with concrete points when they find the abh controversial. Anyway, it is a long term study, how can we take in all at once, I can't. When I write to you I also think of others. It is normal that people react differently, different accumulations. When reading, pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling or indifferent feeling arises due to the object experienced. This is the natural course in the cycle of birth and death (nyama). Do feel free to react or not to react, it is all right. I like to compare texts anyway, it is useful also for myself. And again: good for me to think of this: is there another way of presenting the Dhamma? As Sariputta did in the sutta on Right Understanding: is there another way of explaining, yes, there is another way of explaining. So many methods adapted to the different listeners. We have now a lot of threads hanging around. A main difficulty for you: you think it is merely a conventional term, whereas I think that it represents what is real. As Sarah said: a shorthand for reality. Difficulties about rupas, rupas which are realities even though you cannot experience them, maybe your background of phenomenology? I like to go deeper into the sutta on Right understanding later on. I just read what Ken H wrote very clearly about knowing the present moment, also one of your points: I like your long standing dialogue with Jon, and it does not matter that there are long pauses in between. It is always good to take up old threads. With appreciation, Nina. P.S. Right Livelihood is for another time. I liked this one with the stress on momentary reality and also your post on latent tendencies, showing that nothing is static. 27780 From: Jeffrey S. Brooks Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 1:42pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah, and thank-you for your interest. Many apologies for taking so long to get back with you. I have been busy responding to over a hundred and 50 emails a day since I posted the original message that you have so kindly responded to. Fortunately that flow of email has slowed down enough for me to get back on line to check on the responses to my post. Since you mentioned that my bio is about the past, and you inquired into my present, then I can say that in my present I am more happy and fulfilled than I can ever recall being, but since I practice moment-to-moment mindfulness, then I am aware that most of my days and night I feel more happy and content than I can ever recall being. I am also aware that many of the experiences that I mentioned in the post that responded to are also part of my present as well as my moment-to-moment experience for a number of years, such as awareness of an aura and the upper 4 chakras. And, during this morning's meditation I had pleasant arisings to the 4th jhana, which is typical for me, as well as the rising of "energy." As for the "I" when I refer to myself, this is a language that is based on self references I use it in much the same way you use the term. I speak of this one, who is typing this message to you, that one who will be reading it. But, I know that this is not me, I am not this, and this is not mine. How about you? Best regards Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Jeff, > ... > Whilst I think that it's always interesting to read and hear about > people's past experiences -- and there's no doubt that yours are > particularly colourful -- the past has gone completely. I think we all > tend to cling to past special experiences and sometimes try to fit the > texts to match any unusual phenomena, but surely this is just indicative > of the clinging at this moment and lack of any understanding of what is > presently arising? > ... 27781 From: robmoult Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 2:53pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I like this post - can you tell me where the reference to akusala > kamma patha comes from? ===== The Expositor (Atthasalini), Book I, Part III, Chapter V - Discourse on Courses of Immoral Actions, p126-136 in the PTS version. This section also talks about slight misdeeds (killing small animals) vs. greater misdeeds (killing larger animals). ===== > When people talk about Kamma and how it makes sense - it is true, it > does on paper, and with the simple examples given, and when it is > not 'me'. When you compare it to gravity, it seems straight forward - > The result of breaking the laws of gravity, in this world, is > immediate, predictible, consistent and the result is able to be > precisely replicated. However, the law of kamma, on the contrary, > isn't immediate, predictable, consistent and the result is not able > to be precisely replicated. I can see the type of kamma that gets > results right now - shout an obscenity at a tired policeman and > predictable things will happen. But we have no proof that bad things > happening to good people who happened to be in the wrong place at the > wrong time are vipaka. To state they are could be just 'tidying up > the story'. I think a lot about this because it hits me in the face > everyday. I'm not sure whether you read this post of mine recently - > rather than repeat parts of it again, I'll give the link: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24985 > > Anyway, it's something I have to deal with, and the 'adze handle' of > not understanding kamma may wear through one day ... ===== Good post (I had not read it previously). I see theism as pure blind faith, whereas I see kamma as an extension of what we experience every day. As you mentioned, if you swear at a cop, you can see the reaction. In other words, cause and effect is obvious in everyday life in the very short term. In the mid-term, the law of cause and effect is obvious to somebody who thinks about it a bit. I can trace the main decisions in my life that generally led to me sitting here typing this message and some of those decisions are far back in time (i.e. joining DSG was an important decision). However, if you want to extend back into the long term (why some people are born rich, etc.), you have to introduce an element of faith; not blind faith, but faith that the same principles that we see working on the short term and can understand intellectually on the mid-term also operate in the long-term. Metta, Rob M :-) 27782 From: Egberdina Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 3:06pm Subject: Re: Grasping at mind states Take 2 Hi Jon, Perhaps a more obvious means of not clinging to anything seen is to close one's eyes. Peace Herman > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Herman > > > > Now here's a question for you. Given the speed with which clinging > > arises when sense-door objects are experienced, what is your > > understanding of the means by which it would be possible for a > person > > to 'not grasp at any theme or details by which -- if he were to > dwell > > without restraint over the faculty of the eye -- evil, unskillful > > qualities such as greed or distress might assail him'? > > > > Jon 27783 From: Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 4:37pm Subject: Vism.XIV 47, 48 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. [446] 48. And this is said by the Geneal of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head' (?). -------------------- 27784 From: Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 4:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 47, 48 "It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton." Hi Nina, What's this all about? I assume "it" refers to eye sensitivity. Larry 27785 From: robmoult Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 8:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Question on ego and self .. Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > --- robmoult wrote: > > Here is an extract from "Why God Won't Go Away" (p7) which supports > > your view: > > Robert was one of eight Tibetan meditators who participated in our > > imaging study. Each was subjected to the same routine, and in > > virtually every case, the SPECT scans showed a similar slowing of > > activity in the orientation area, occuring during the peak moments > > of meditation. > > Later, we broadened the experiment and used the same techniques to > > study several Franciscan nuns at prayer. Again, the SPECT scans > > revealed similar changes that occured during the sisters' most > > intensely religious moments. > <...> > > > > My opinion is that the scientists were observing something and then > > trying to fit their observations into their religious beliefs. I > > looked at the same observations and used it to support the validity > > of anatta, though this interpretation is not even hinted at in the > > book. > ..... > So you are correlating a decreased activity in part of the brain as shown > on a SPECT scan (I keep thinking of SPECTRE in a James Bond film;- )) with > either a) an understanding of anatta as I think was suggested before or b) > the truth of anatta, regardless of any understanding or in spite of a > wrong understanding by the participants. > > If similar decreased activity were to show up after say, a swimming or > hiking marathon or yogic meditation, would this lead you to draw the same > conclusions? What about reduced heart activity as shown on an ECG? > > As I say, I have no problem following the studies (how scientific is > another qu), but I do have trouble following the conclusions - yours and > others I've read following other similar research. I'll be glad for any > further clarification. The area of the brain in question (Orientation Association Area) has the role of collecting sensory data and organizing it around a "self". A significantly decreased blood flow to that specific portion of the brain would correspond to a decreased sense of "self" as something separate from the surroundings. Depending on one's religious inclinations, one could describe this sensation as: - Being at one with the universe - Talking to God - Perceiving anatta To me, the fact that these scientists have designated an area that creates a sense of self that overlays the sensory input is significant - this aligns well with the Buddhist view that "self" is only a concept. I would suggest that any activity that causes a decreased blood flow to this portion of the brain would help one to perceive "anatta". I am not surprised that deep meditation can be a condition for this arising. I suspect that, depending on the individual, other conditions could also lead to a similar result. Metta, Rob M :-) 27786 From: Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Jhana is ecstasy I have found the Pali term 'jhana' is too often regarded as a dirty word in many Buddhist circles. I find that remarkable since the Buddha mentions it in almost every sutta, and in the Digha Nikaya alone it has 19 references in the glossary. And, even when jhana is acknowledged then its definition as ecstasy is too often denied. The term 'ecstasy' has been used as a word to describe the experience of enlightenment by English speaking contemplatives for quite some time. Also, please take note that Theresa of Avila and John of the Cross used Spanish terms that have been translated into the English as 'ecstasy' to describe the experiences in their contemplative practice. And, they described 7 absorption states. Therefore I believe it is reasonable to assume that the term 'ecstasy' is a valid translation of the Pali term jhana. From the Digha Nikaya Glossary jhanas - Absorptions, DN 42, 1.3.21f., n.79, n.50, n.57, n.76f., 2.75ff., 4.33, n.168, 9.10ff., 16.6.8f., 17.2.3, n.583, n.611, 26.28, 29.24, 33.3.3(6), n.1118, n.1127, n.1143 Majjhima Nikaya 59 Bahuvedaniya Sutta a translation from the Pali by Bhikkhus Nanamoli and Bodhi, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1995 "The pleasure and joy that arise dependent on the five sense cords (senses)... are called sense pleasure....There is another kind of pleasure here, Ananda, (when one is) secluded from the sense pleasure, secluded from unwholesome states, a bhikkhu enters upon and abides in the first jhana, which is accompanied by applied and sustained (concentration) with joy and pleasure born of seclusion. This kind of pleasure (bliss) is Pasadika Sutta DN 29 The Delightful Discourse a translation from the Pali by Maurice Walshe, Wisdom Publications, Boston 1987, 1995 24.2 There are, Cunda, these four kinds of life devoted to pleasure which are conducive to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to tranquillity, to realization, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. What are they? First a monk detached from sense-desires, detached from unwholesome mental states, enters and remains in the first jhana... Anapanasati Sutta, MN 118 Awareness of In-&-Out Breathing [6] "One trains oneself to breathe in sensitive to joy, and to breathe out sensitive to pleasure." The Language of Ecstasy in Englsih Absorb tr.v. 1. To take (something) in through or as through pores or interstices. 2. To occupy the full attention, interest, or time of; engross. See Synonyms at monopolize. 3. Physics. To retain (radiation or sound, for example) wholly, without reflection or transmission. 4. To take in; assimilate: immigrants who were absorbed into the social mainstream. 5. To receive (an impulse) without echo or recoil: a fabric that absorbs sound; a bumper that absorbs impact. 6. To take over (a cost or costs). 7. To endure; accommodate: couldn't absorb the additional hardships. [Middle English, to swallow up, from Old French absorber, from Latin absorbre Absorption n. 1. The act or process of absorbing or the condition of being absorbed. 2. A state of mental concentration. Bliss n. 1. Extreme happiness; ecstasy. 2. The ecstasy of salvation; spiritual joy. Ecstasy n., pl. ecstasies. 1. Intense joy or delight. 2. A state of emotion so intense that one is carried beyond rational thought and self-control. 3. The trance, frenzy, or rapture associated with mystic or prophetic exaltation. [Middle English extasie, from Old French, from Late Latin extasis effusive adj. 1. Unrestrained or excessive in emotional expression; gushy: an effusive manner. 2. Profuse; overflowing: effusive praise. euphoria n. A feeling of great happiness or well-being. [New Latin, from Greek, from euphoros, healthy : eu-, eu- + pherein, to bear; see bher-1 below.] exhilaration n. 1. The act of exalting or the condition of being exalted. 2. A state or feeling of intense, often excessive exhilaration or well-being. See Synonyms at ecstasy. 3. A flight of larks. See Synonyms at flock1. exuberant adj. 1. Full of unrestrained enthusiasm or joy. 2. Lavish; extravagant. 3. Extreme in degree, size, or extent. 4. Growing, producing, or produced abundantly; plentiful: Note: because exhilaration exuberant have the quality of effusiveness, then I relegate them to the first jhana, which seems to be typified by a youthful and gushy kind of joy. Rapture n. 1. The state of being transported by a lofty emotion; ecstasy. 2. Often raptures. An expression of ecstatic feeling. See Synonyms at ecstasy. 3. The transporting of a person from one place to another, especially to heaven. Note: Because 'rapture' has the quality of being transported then I take this to the Contemplative Christian term for an out-of-body experience. And, since the out-of-body experience typically leaves the subject in a cataleptic trance, then I am going to associate it with the supramundane absorption states trance (trans) n. 1. A hypnotic, cataleptic, or ecstatic state. 2. Detachment from one's physical surroundings, as in contemplation or daydreaming. 3. A semiconscious state, as between sleeping and waking; a daze. Note: because the word 'trance' has the quality of "Detachment from one's physical surroundings in a cataleptic-like state then I believe we should use this term for the Supramundane absorption states. Blessings to you, Jeff Brooks Ecstatic Buddhism A newsletter for ecstatic Buddhists website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Ecstatic_Buddhism/ Subscribe: Ecstatic_Buddhism-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27787 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 9:25pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hello RobM, and All, I understand from what I have heard elsewhere, that there are said to be bad consequences for anyone not having confidence in the full orthodox version of kamma. This is scary and doesn't create belief or understanding, it just makes people fearful and unwilling to publicly question. Doubt goes underground, and doesn't get cleared up. Conditionality, I agree with - it is undeniable - I can see and intellectually map out many of the innumerable causes for one experience. But I had not thought that kamma and conditionality were totally the same. Conditionality makes sense, it is plain to see. But kamma when it isn't a direct, immediate result, isn't plain to see. Belief in kamma can't always be described as "This much I see and have proven, so this little extra step I can accept because of what I have proven in the past." As far as I can tell, it's often not a little step, it's a huge leap - and, it seems to need strong faith. Say the continuum presently and conventionally known as Rob Moult holds up a bank, steals a great deal of money, kills a teller, and gets completely away with it in 2003. No-one ever finds out that Rob Moult is the robber and murderer, Rob Moult dies at a great age, respected, rich, and surrounded by loving family. What happens next? We are told - the continuum allegedly goes through further re- becomings and somewhere, somehow, somewhen an awful thing happens to it - and that is the 'just and fair' result of kamma committed years- to-aeons in the past by a previous version of the continuum (Rob Moult).....so the faithful believe ... Nice and tidy, explains all the awkward questions about fairness and justice. But where is the connection? Is there a store of vipaka? No memory exists, no lesson is learned, no way to verify the truth of the belief... Who/what keeps the records? And there is no discernible thread connecting the two happenings. People at both ends - firstly where the murder and robbery were committed, and secondly where the unnamed severe result occurs - see no result and no cause. Hard to see there really IS any connection. Kamma is such an important part of Buddhism, I'd really like to feel settled about it, but don't see how to bring this about. I guess one just has to live "as if" it is true. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Christine, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > I like this post - can you tell me where the reference to akusala > > kamma patha comes from? > > ===== > > The Expositor (Atthasalini), Book I, Part III, Chapter V - Discourse > on Courses of Immoral Actions, p126-136 in the PTS version. This > section also talks about slight misdeeds (killing small animals) vs. > greater misdeeds (killing larger animals). > > ===== > > > When people talk about Kamma and how it makes sense - it is true, > it > > does on paper, and with the simple examples given, and when it is > > not 'me'. When you compare it to gravity, it seems straight > forward - > > The result of breaking the laws of gravity, in this world, is > > immediate, predictible, consistent and the result is able to be > > precisely replicated. However, the law of kamma, on the contrary, > > isn't immediate, predictable, consistent and the result is not > able > > to be precisely replicated. I can see the type of kamma that gets > > results right now - shout an obscenity at a tired policeman and > > predictable things will happen. But we have no proof that bad > things > > happening to good people who happened to be in the wrong place at > the > > wrong time are vipaka. To state they are could be just 'tidying > up > > the story'. I think a lot about this because it hits me in the > face > > everyday. I'm not sure whether you read this post of mine > recently - > > rather than repeat parts of it again, I'll give the link: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/24985 > > > > Anyway, it's something I have to deal with, and the 'adze handle' > of > > not understanding kamma may wear through one day ... > > ===== > > Good post (I had not read it previously). I see theism as pure blind > faith, whereas I see kamma as an extension of what we experience > every day. As you mentioned, if you swear at a cop, you can see the > reaction. In other words, cause and effect is obvious in everyday > life in the very short term. In the mid-term, the law of cause and > effect is obvious to somebody who thinks about it a bit. I can trace > the main decisions in my life that generally led to me sitting here > typing this message and some of those decisions are far back in time > (i.e. joining DSG was an important decision). However, if you want > to extend back into the long term (why some people are born rich, > etc.), you have to introduce an element of faith; not blind faith, > but faith that the same principles that we see working on the short > term and can understand intellectually on the mid-term also operate > in the long-term. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 27788 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 9:48pm Subject: Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Sarah, (and Steve and all), Getting back to the Mahacattarika Sutta: When you are reading that sutta, do you get the impression that the words, "the realisation that wrong understanding is wrong understanding," are being used to describe all mundane right understanding? And do you get the impression that "the realisation that right understanding is right understanding," [in this instance], describes only 'supramundane right understanding?' In other words, I think 'wrong view' is being used metaphorically for everything that is not Nibbana and the Path. And 'right view,' for everything that is. At Cooran, Steve and I were talking about the second noble truth. We were wondering why 'clinging' (lobha) is given as the cause of dukkha. I have slotted this into my theory: :-) In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first noble truth is illustrated as 'birth, decay, death, grief, lamentation' and so on. But we know that 'joy, celebration, mundane success,' are also dukkha. It seems as if the pleasant/wholesome dukkhas are being left out for the purposes of metaphor. The metaphor highlights the difference between the dukkhas that are mundane (the five aggregates of clinging, the first noble truth) from the dukkhas that are supramundane (the five aggregates of path consciousness, the fourth noble truth). I speculate that, for similar reasons, lobha is given as the cause of dukkha -- even though all six mundane motivations are responsible. This completes a simplified, metaphorical picture painted by the profound, ultimately real, four noble truths: 1, unwholesome, conditioned reality is due to 2, unwholesomeness, whereas 3, wholesome unconditioned reality is attained by 4, wholesomeness. What do you think? (Be polite.) :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27789 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 9:52pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas O, James ;-)) ;-)) I always read you letters to the starkids with great pleasure. You know with a sharp intuition what is driving them and speak the right words to help them, appreciating, Nina. op 06-12-2003 20:32 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: > Ps. You might want to ask Mrs. Abbott how she celebrates `Abhidhamma > Day' That is the day that celebrates the occasion when the Buddha is > said to have gone to the Tushita Heaven to teach his mother the > Abhidhamma. It occurs the first full moon day in October. Mrs. > Abbott loves the Abhidhamma! :-) 27790 From: Sarah Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 10:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Nina & James, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > O, James ;-)) ;-)) buddhatrue@y...: > > > Ps. You might want to ask Mrs. Abbott how she celebrates `Abhidhamma > > Day' That is the day that celebrates the occasion when the Buddha is > > said to have gone to the Tushita Heaven to teach his mother the > > Abhidhamma. It occurs the first full moon day in October. Mrs. > > Abbott loves the Abhidhamma! :-) .... You’ve given me a great idea! Maybe we could all have an Abhidhamma party next year instead of a Halloween party. We could have various namas and rupas dangling from the ceiling ready to attack the kids as they arrive, with commentary and sub-commentary texts plastered over the walls and dropping out of my sleeves;-). Hopefully, James, you’ll come to meet the Starkids and help them find their way around the rupas (Rupaville;-)) and explain why understanding the commentaries to the Abhidhamma texts is essential for having fun at a party;-) They’d love it. I’ve learnt over the years that if you call anything a game or a party, the kids are soon on side. Nutritive essence? Maybe it’s not necessary for them to get distracted with mundane hang-ups and we’ve all had too many messy cakes over the years. We’ll just tell them there’s a controversy about whether nutritive essence exists or whether it’s merely a concept and conduct a scientific experiment to see whether deprivation leads to more understanding of anatta;-) Maybe a few Tusita cobwebs and fairies for atmosphere? Metta, Sarah p.s Just remembered - October full-moon, Nina and I will be in India at the very spot where the Buddha returned after teaching Abhidhamma to his mother in Tusita;-) You'll be on your own, James;-) =========================================================== 27791 From: robmoult Date: Sun Dec 7, 2003 11:41pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > I understand from what I have heard elsewhere, that there are said to > be bad consequences for anyone not having confidence in the full > orthodox version of kamma. This is scary and doesn't create belief > or understanding, it just makes people fearful and unwilling to > publicly question. Doubt goes underground, and doesn't get cleared > up. ===== I don't see this as a "punishment for lack of faith", but rather a statement of a law of nature; actions done without an understanding of the law of kamma have more serious results than actions done with an understanding of kamma. This is because of the strength of the volition involved. One doesn't have to done a thesis on kamma to grasp the fundamental principle of "good -> good" & "bad -> bad" and that is all that is needed to lessen the strength of volition. ===== > > Conditionality, I agree with - it is undeniable - I can see and > intellectually map out many of the innumerable causes for one > experience. But I had not thought that kamma and conditionality > were totally the same. ===== Mathematically, I see it as: kamma = conditionality + ethics In other words, not only do things arise from conditions, but also "good -> good" & "bad -> bad". ===== > Conditionality makes sense, it is plain to see. But kamma when it > isn't a direct, immediate result, isn't plain to see. Belief in > kamma can't always be described as "This much I see and have proven, > so this little extra step I can accept because of what I have proven > in the past." As far as I can tell, it's often not a little step, > it's a huge leap - and, it seems to need strong faith. ===== We must see the workings of kamma in the short term; a smile passes along a pleasant feeling or "oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive". We can then verify that kamma is a reasonable explanation for the mid-term; a habit of generosity -> good reputation. Admitedly, extending this beyond lifetimes is an extrapolation, but it seems to me to be a rational conclusion. Why do some people have a fundamentally different character or different skill sets from other people; accumulations from past life seems to me to be a reasonable explanation. ===== > > Say the continuum presently and conventionally known as Rob Moult > holds up a bank, steals a great deal of money, kills a teller, and > gets completely away with it in 2003. No-one ever finds out that Rob > Moult is the robber and murderer, Rob Moult dies at a great age, > respected, rich, and surrounded by loving family. What happens > next? We are told - the continuum allegedly goes through further re- > becomings and somewhere, somehow, somewhen an awful thing happens to > it - and that is the 'just and fair' result of kamma committed years- > to-aeons in the past by a previous version of the continuum (Rob > Moult).....so the faithful believe ... Nice and tidy, explains all > the awkward questions about fairness and justice. > But where is the connection? Is there a store of vipaka? No memory > exists, no lesson is learned, no way to verify the truth of the > belief... Who/what keeps the records? And there is no discernible > thread connecting the two happenings. People at both ends - firstly > where the murder and robbery were committed, and secondly where the > unnamed severe result occurs - see no result and no cause. Hard to > see there really IS any connection. > Kamma is such an important part of Buddhism, I'd really like to feel > settled about it, but don't see how to bring this about. > I guess one just has to live "as if" it is true. ===== Here is the Acintita Sutta (AN IV.77): "There are these four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them. Which four? 1. "The Buddha-range of the Buddhas [i.e., the range of powers a Buddha develops as a result of becoming a Buddha] is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. 2. "The jhana-range of a person in jhana [i.e., the range of powers that one may obtain while absorbed in jhana]... 3. "The [precise working out of the] results of kamma... 4. "Conjecture about [the origin, etc., of] the world is an unconjecturable that is not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about it. "These are the four unconjecturables that are not to be conjectured about, that would bring madness & vexation to anyone who conjectured about them." Christine, please take note of #3 :-) I wouldn't want to bring you madness & vexation by conjecturing about this. Christine, kamma is not completely verifiable (except by a Buddha) and requires a degree of faith. This is the faith that "good -> good" & "bad -> bad". I must admit to a very strong faith in this tenet; but it is not merely a blind faith, it is a reasoned faith grounded on experience and then extrapolated. One could argue that my extrapolation is ungrounded and to that person, I would ask, "give me a better model". Metta, Rob M :-) 27792 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 0:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi RobM & All, --- robmoult wrote: > In Nyanatiloka's Dictionary, under "anusaya", a reference is made to > Vis.M. XXII,60: "These things are called 'proclivities' since, in > consequence of their pertinacity, they ever and again tend to become > the conditions for the arising of ever new sensous greed, etc." > > In other words, "anusaya" refers to mental states that tend to be > somewhat self-sustaining. Now what is the underlying mechanism that > would allow a mental state to become somewhat self-sustaining? It is > pakatupanissaya. For example, the arising of sensous greed creates > a "strong past citta/cetasika" which becomes the conditioning state > for a new citta of sensous greed via pakatupanissaya. I see anusaya > as the manifestation (outcome) and I see pakatupanissaya as the > underlying mechanism supporting this outcome. > > Does this clarify or confuse? .... This clarifies;-) I would probably refer to the sensuous greed as the outcome of the accumulated anusaya, acting as decisive support condition, but I’m probably just quibbling;-). RobertK also quoted from the Vism on anusaya: >The Visuddhimagga (XXII, 60) ... For it is owing to their inveteracy that they are called inherent tendencies (anusaya) since they inhere (anusenti) as cause for the arising of greed for sense desires, etc., again and again." ***** RobM, I have a few gems for you, I hope;-) You started off by mentioning that the term ‘pakatupanissaya’ only occurs in the Patthana and you were looking for expressions of the inter-connectedness of pakatupanissaya and anusaya elsewhere. As I mentioned before, I think we read about this frequently in the suttas, albeit in other terms and albeit with an understanding of Abhidhamma necessary to appreciate the suttas in question. Ken O introduced one good example in a discussion thread on ‘practice’ and control/lack of control with Howard. He wrote: >Just the chinese sayings wu wei er wei (no action yet there is action) literal translation. I would to share this interesting sutta paragraph with you http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html "But when one doesn't intend, arrange, or obsess [about anything], there is no support for the stationing of consciousness. There being no support, there is no landing of consciousness. When that consciousness doesn't land & grow, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. When there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, or despair. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of suffering & stress." ***** This is the third section, the end of the short sutta. I looked at B.Bodhi’s translation which starts off: “...Bhikkhus, what one intends, and what one plans, and whatever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness.... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering” BB adds extensive commentary notes (SN, p767f) which show the importance of appreciation of conditions and anusaya (latent tendencies). Howard & Christine may find this useful too: “Spk [comy]: Here, the phrase ‘one intends (ceteti)’ includes all wholesome and unwholesome volition of the three planes; ‘one plans (pakappeti)’, the mental fabrications of craving and views (ta.nhaadi.t.thikappaa) in the eight cittas accompanied by greed [Spk-p.t [sub-comy]: the fabrications of views occur only in the four cittas associated with views]; and ‘whatever one has a tendency towards (anuseti)’ ***implies the underlying tendencies(anusaya) under the headings of conascence and decisive support conditions for the twelve (unwholesome) volitions***.[see CMA 1:4-7] ‘This becomes a basis (aaramma.nam eta.m hoti)’: These various states such as volition become a condition (paccaya). ‘for the maintenance of consciousness (vi~n~naa.nassa .thitiyaa)’: for the purpose of maintaining the kammic consciousness........” BB adds that AN 1 223-24 ‘explains the process of renewed existence in similar terms’. He adds that ‘anuseti’ clearly refers to the anusaya or underlying tendencies, including the tendency to ignorance and craving. He also writes (and I’m abbreviating a lot here) that ‘in this sutta the terms ***aaramma.na and pati.t.thaa denote the decisive-support condition (upanissayapacccaya) for consciousness***, while in the two suttas in the Khandhasa.myutta they denote the conascence and support conditions (sahajaatapaccaya, nissayapaccaya). The sub-comy to the next section may be of interest to Ken H too. In the sutta we read: “If, bhikkhus, one does not intend, and one does not plan, but one still has a tendency towards something, this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness........Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering.” “Spk: this refers to a moment when there is no occurrence of [wholesome and unwholesome] volition of the three planes, and no occurrence of the mental fabrications of craving and views. ‘but one still has a tendency’: by this the underlying tendencies are included because they have not been abandoned here in the resultants of the three planes........As long as the underlying tendencies exist, they become a condition for the kammic consciousness, for there is no way to prevent its arising.” “Spk-p.t: This second section is stated to show that wholesome and unwholesome kamma capable of producing rebirth is accumulated in the preliminary portion (of the path of practice), and that even without planning (through craving and views), the volitions of insight meditation in a meditator who has seen the dangers in existence are still conditioned by the underlying tendencies and are capable of generating rebirth. It is also stated to show that even when wholesome and unwholesome states are not occurring there is still an establishing of kammic consciousness with underlying defilements as condition; for so long as these have not been abandoned they lie latent in the existing resultants of the three planes, etc.” In the third section, quoted by Ken O at the start, ‘the function of the path of arahantship (arahattamaggassa kicca.m)’ is discussed whereby the anusayas have been eradicated. By path, clearly the magga citta is being referred to. “Spk-p.t: the nine supramundane states can be said because the underlying tendencies are extirpated by the series of paths, and the fruits follow immediately upon the paths, and Nibbana is the object of both.” There is a lot more that could be discussed here, but I’ll wait for any further comments. Many thanks to you all for prompting these quotes and further reflections. As RobertK’ wrote: >Accumulating is happening right now - the accumulating of understanding (or not) that can be a condition as upanissiya paccaya (support condition) or asevena paccya (repetition condition) for more understanding and so it keeps accumulating until there are enough conditions for insight to arise. Not by self or wanting or freewill but by the right conditions.< Metta, Sarah ====== 27793 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 0:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Nina & James, You've given me a great idea! Maybe we could all have an Abhidhamma party > next year instead of a Halloween party. LOL! Hmmm…this sounds like a good idea. Who are you going to be dressed as? Buddhaghosa (Buddha-ghost-a ;-)? Hope you have fun in India. Get your shots and don't drink the water. Metta, James 27794 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 0:47am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi RobM, Thanks for your kind efforts - I really appreciate your patience. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" 27795 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 1:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi KenO (& James), Just checking my sleeve;-) --- ashkenn2k wrote: > Hi James > > You are right to insist that the mind is indeed pure and bright and I > am wrong about it. Here is another reference on luminous mind > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn140.html > "There remains only consciousness: pure & bright. What does one > cognize with that consciousness? One cognizes 'pleasure.' One > cognizes 'pain.' One cognizes 'neither pleasure nor pain.' ...... I think we need to look at these luminous references carefully and in context. In this example, the terms ‘parisuddha’ and ‘pariyodata’ are used. They usually occur together and are translated as clean, clear, pure,bright etc. I believe they (nearly?) always refer to sobhana states such as wisdom, or the teachings as in purisuddha dhamma desana etc. In this sutta they are referring to consciousness with insight which understands and penetrates feelings and other realities. B.Bodhi gives this note from the commentary which also clearly explains the use of ‘remains’ in context: “MA: This is the sixth element, which “remains” in that it has yet to be expounded by the Buddha and penetrated by Pukkusaati. Here it is explained as the consciousness that accomplishes the work of insight contemplation on the elements. Under the heading of consciousness, the contemplation of feeling is also introduced.” The passage continues to show the conditioned nature of feelings and their impermanence. A little later in the sutta, we read: “Then there remains only equanimity, purified and bright, malleable, wieldy, and radiant. Suppose, bhikkhu, a skilled goldsmith......” Here we have another gem for Victor on attachment to jhana states: “MA identifies this as the equanimity of the fourth jhana. According to MA, Pukkusaati had already achieved the fourth jhana and had a strong attachment to it. The Buddha first praises this equanimity to inspire Pukkusaati’s confidence, then he gradually leads him to the immaterial jhanas and the attainment of the paths and fruits.” Later we read about the conditioned nature of the immaterial jhanas. “MA: this is said in order to show the danger in the immaterial jhanas. By the one phrase, ‘This would be conditioned,’ he shows: ‘Even though the lifespan there is 20,000 aeons, that is conditioned, fashioned, built up. It is thus impermanent, unstable, not lasting, transient. It is subject to perishing, breaking up, and dissolution; it is involved with birth, ageing, and death, grounded upon suffering. It is not a shelter, a place of safety, a refuge. Having passed away there as a worldling, one can still be reborn in the four states of deprivation.” Sobering reminders;-) A little later Pukkusaati becomes an anagami (non-returner) when he hears these further words: “Since he does not form any condition or generate any volition towards either being or non-being, he does not cling to anything in this world. when he does not cling, he is not agitated. when he is not agitated he personally attains Nibbana. He understands thus: ‘Birth is destroyed, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more coming to any state of being.” “MA says at this point Pukkusaati penetrated three paths and fruits, becoming a non-returner. he realised that his teacher was the Buddha himself, but could not express his realisation since the Buddha still continued with his discourse.” Hope this helps. Comments welcome. Metta, Sarah ===== 27796 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 1:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Kangaroos (was Re: October thoughts from Cooran) Hi Ken O (& Herman). --- ashkenn2k wrote: > k: You are right there is no need to know what is Nibbana bc > whatever we label it, there is a strong likelihood of being attached > to it. I think this sutta is a good reminder that even the path > leading to Nibbana also cannot be cling to. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn024.html > However, Buddha still have to describe though for worlding like me. > It is just there. .... I like this sutta a lot. It’s a reminder that even the great disciples had to hear each other express their understanding in order to know they were enlightened. With their great wisdom, they could appreciate it in the other. We also read in this sutta about the 7 visuddhi (stages of purification), which are discussed in such detail in the Visuddhimagga. We read about increased wisdom and purification until the final eradication of clinging to any phenomena (not particularly to the path as I read it, just like in the simile of the raft: BB adds: “MA explains that the first six stages are 'accompanied by clinging' in the sense both of being conditioned and of existing in one who still has grasping; the seventh stage, being supramundane, only in the sense of being conditioned.” Metta, Sarah p.s I liked your additional comments of the yoniso manasikara thread. I may come back to it eventually;-) ========================================== 27797 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 2:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken O, One more very quick one which is long overdue - apologies. I’ll look to see what’s up my big sleeve for Ken H tomorrow and give you a break;-) --- ashkenn2k wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Sometimes, it is difficult to juggle explaining in ways that is not > Abdhidhamma and sometimes it is a mixed up. ... Agreed. ..... >I know one day someone > will ask this question. You said that a lokuttara wisdom and the > arahant's wisdom is conditioned, anicca, dukkha and anatta. What are > these refering, they are referring to kammic effects. As long as > one is still in the condition world, the effects are there. .... You may be confusing the lokuttara magga cittas with wisdom at each stage of enlightenment which are not vipaka (kammic result), with the ‘kammic effects’ arsing during the arahant’s lifetime. (Of course, the lokuttara magga cittas immediately bring their results in the way of lokuttara phala cittas). .... >The world loku as you know is beyond the world or supramundane. When we > say it is beyond the world or supramundane, to me it is wisdom that > is not bound by *conditioned* world, however why it is still bound > by anicca, dukkha and anatta to me it is bc of kammic effects. .... See above. Still due to various conditions to arise and fall away. Many conditions involved such as path condition, object condition (nibbana in this case), succession etc etc. .... > Maybe > I should use the word "beyond the conditioned world consciouness" to > argue but this is too long to write, too cumbersome. I prefer the > word unconditioned wisdom to express lokiya citta to lokuttara > citta. .... Conditioned supramundane consciousness. .... >Ok maybe next time I used supramundane wisdom to avoid > confusion. Or maybe I should use this word unwordly widsom ;-). ... OK. .... >In > my stand, one needs to experience the unconditioned dhamma (Nibbana > as an object) in order to explain what is in the condition world. > (I think there is a sutta on this where Arahant is in Nibbana but > not total Nibbana until the conditioned life time is over due to > kamma) ..... I think you’re referring to these: 1.sa-upaadi sesa nibbana - nibbana with groups of existence remaining, i.e arahant 2.an-upaadi sesa nibbana - nibbana without the groups remaining i.e death of arahant. .... >Or not Buddha will have a hard time convincing pple that > there is a way to liberation (i.e. Nibbana). > > I always happy if you got more to discuss here bc I not particularly > into jhanas or supramundane consciouness bc now to me it is a state > too far away to study. .... Likewise. I always enjoy your good humour and confidence in the teachings, Ken O. Metta, Sarah ====== 27798 From: Egberdina Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 3:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Sarah, I wasn't sure what to make of the quote "for it should not be said that what the foolish ordinary man does not apprehend is unapprehendable." Nobody in their right mind would call a blind person a fool for not being able to apprehend colour. Now I take heart from the unshakeable faith of certain of the noble ones that we are all possessed of the means to apprehend nibbana, but that foolishness prevents the use of those means. So be it then. The suggestion that nibbana must be so, because else the way would be futile, is the insanity of wishful thinking gone troppo. It reminded me of a song about 10-15 years ago by the Eurogliders: Oooooh! Ooh I want to find a better place Oooooh! Ooh I'm searching for a better place Oooooh! Ooh I'm tired of living in the sand Oooooh! Ooh I'm searching for a better land Heaven, must be there Well, it's just got to be there I've never - never seen Eden (My note - read Nibbana) I don't wanna live in this place Oooooh! Ooh I'm always trying to escape Oooooh! Ooh I never know which road to take etc etc etc I found the rest heavy going, but will persevere with it. No need to type a question and answer each day on my account, some of your effort would get more lost than it needs to. I could possibly digest one a week?!? Thanks all the same. Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Herman & All, > > --- Egberdina wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > > > I recall that recently while skimming through a number of posts, I > > saw something there from you re questions in the Vis along the lines > > of what I had been asking. > ..... > I don't have any links, but I'm happy to type it out in sections - a few a > day as I'm finding it difficult to select some and leave out others. There > are 11 Questions and Answers and they all seem relevant to discussions on > nibbana here. I think you'll enjoy them. First ones: > ***** > VismXV1,67f DISCUSSION ON NIBBANA 27799 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Herman & All. VismXV1,67f DISCUSSION ON NIBBANA cont. [Qu.5] But is not nibbana destruction, because of the passage beginning ‘that, friend, which is the destruction of greed...[of hate....of delusion..is nibbana]’(S.iv,251)? [A] That is not so, because it would follow that Arahantship also was mere destruction. For that too is described in the [same] way beginning ‘That, friend, which is the destruction of greed...of hate...of delusion...is Arahantship’ (S.iv, 252). And what is more, the fallacy then follows that nibbana would be temporary, etc; for it it were so, it would follow that nibbana would be temporary, have the characteristic of being formed, and be obtainable regardless of right effort; and precisely because of its having formed characteristics it would be included in the formed, and it would be burning with the fires of greed, etc, and because of its burning it would follow that it was suffering. [Qu. 6] Is there no fallacy if nibbana is that kind of destruction subsequent to which there is no more occurrence? [A] That is not so. Because there is no such kind of destruction. And even if there were, the aforesaid fallacies would not be avoided. Also because it would follow that the noble path was nibbana. For the noble path causes the destruction of defects, and that is why it is called ‘destruction’; and subsequent to that there is no more occurrence of the defects. But it is because the kind of destruction called ‘cessation consisting in non-arising’, [that is, nibbana] serves figuratively speaking as decisive-support [for the path] that [nibbana] is called ‘destruction’ as a metaphor for it. [Qu.7] Why is it not stated in its own form? [A] Because of its extreme subtlety. And its extreme subtlety is established because it inclined the Blessed One to inaction, [that is, to not teaching the Dhamma (see M.i,186)] and because it has no first beginning. [Qu.8] Since it is, when the path is, then it is not uncreated. [A] that is not so, because it is not arousable by the path; it is only reachable, not arousable, by the path; that is why it is uncreated. It is because it is uncreated that it is free from ageing and death. It is because of the absence of its creation and of its ageing and death that it is permanent.” ****** How are we doing? Do these help to understand why there is only one unconditioned dhamma? Atoms in the next qus. Metta, Sarah ====== 27800 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] Links to questions about nibbana Hi Herman, --- Egberdina wrote: > I found the rest heavy going, but will persevere with it. No need to > type a question and answer each day on my account, some of your > effort would get more lost than it needs to. I could possibly digest > one a week?!? > > Thanks all the same. .... ;-) Too slow! Anyway, you can spend a week digesting each - like StarCroc, grab all the food from the various traps and take it off for a week's digestion and then resurface again;-) Only 3 more - I'll probably do them tomorrow so as not to forget. Don't worry, you don't need to feel indebted or enlightened;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27801 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:22am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, I appreciate all your posts and considerations. --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > Lets assume that two individuals are going to perform the exact same > task, > dropping a bomb, and both at the moment of performing the task have > exactly > the same consciousness and mental factors present, and they are aware of > the > possible consequences and have the intention to kill. In the first case > no > one is hurt because the bomb misses the target, in the second countless > people die. In both cases they are unaware of the consequences of their > action. In accordance to what has been discussed in the list, the kamma > created by both would be exactly the same because it only depends on > their > mind states. .... No, because only the second would be an act of killing and akusala kamma patha. As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. Of course, this raises many qus, some of which are addressed in Abhidhamma texts, but many of which are unconjecturables. RobM or others may add more;-) There could be many degrees of intention involved and many kinds of injury and death caused. Many conditions at work all the time. ..... >Well this is what is nagging me. I think this is not > correct. I > don’t know exactly why, but my suspicion is because it views each > individual > as separate and isolated and only matters what happens within each > consciousness stream, it ignores the interconnection with all other > beings/phenomena, etc. ..... Does this clarify? .... > > If there are any related past messages I would appreciate if you could > point > me to them. ..... There are a few posts under killing and meat-eating in UP, but I don’t think this particular aspect has been addressed before. I’ll be glad to hear your further comments and those of others. I was reading in the paper today about a man who had been charged with ‘grievous bodily harm’ for throwing acid at an employer a few weeks back. The employer suffered complications in hospital and now the man has had the charge upgraded to murder. Hmmm.. Metta, Sarah ====== 27802 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anusaya Hi Howard, A friend of mine was flying to NY today, so I was able to warn her about the weather;-) No wonder you folks spend a lot of time indoors. --- upasaka@a... wrote: > I believe that "latent/dormant tendencies" rise and fall all the > time, > with subsequent tendencies being conditioned by previous ones in much > the > same way as the last mindstate in a "life" conditions the first > mindstate of the > next, and in much the same way as the motion of one billiard ball > conditions > the moving af another. It is not a matter of "the same tendency" > continuing, > though subsequent tendencies are often little different in form/pattern > from > prior ones. (But I agree that the terminology is off-putting, being > suggestive of > substantiality and permananence.) .... This sounded pretty good to me. I also liked a post you wrote in the last month, also using the billiard ball analogy but taking it a little further. http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m22461.html I know it must be most frustrating at times, but we all appreciate your dialogues with Nina, Jon and others. Many lurkers will share your ambivalent feelings towards the Abhidhamma;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27803 From: rjkjp1 Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 6:15am Subject: [dsg] Re: Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Anyway there is no need to purposedly meet a circumstance bc > circumstance always come to us, one good example is that our senses > are always bombarded by different objects, they are the conditions > for our condition to train ourselves. There is no need to go and do > something as it is around us every minute of our waking moments. > When we think we need to do something is just bc we are not mindful > of the moment, this should a state that our mind is full of mental > restlessness which is more of moha rather than panna. > ================= Dear KenO,] Yes, and then restlessness and moha can be known at that time: and that is yoniso -manisikara. And so we can settle in to the present moment more and more instead of looking for something different or wishing we had more understanding . Robertk 27804 From: robmoult Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 8:23am Subject: Re: Anusaya Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > RobM, I have a few gems for you, I hope;-) You started off by mentioning > that the term `pakatupanissaya' only occurs in the Patthana and you were > looking for expressions of the inter-connectedness of pakatupanissaya and > anusaya elsewhere. As I mentioned before, I think we read about this > frequently in the suttas, albeit in other terms and albeit with an > understanding of Abhidhamma necessary to appreciate the suttas in > question. > > Ken O introduced one good example in a discussion thread on `practice' and > control/lack of control with Howard. He wrote: > > >Just the chinese sayings wu wei er wei (no action yet there is > action) literal translation. I would to share this interesting sutta > paragraph with you > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-038.html > ===== Thanks for pointing out this Sutta. I liked it (and BB's notes as well). I see two complementary dimensions to the Buddha's teachings; ethical and soterilolocial. I am coming the conclusion that pakatupanissaya is core to the ethical dimension (though I would feel more comfortable if there were at least one Sutta dedicated to this specific topic). I suspect that pakatupanissaya is also key to paticcasamuppada, though I haven't explored this yet. When I do get around to this exploration, this Sutta will come in handy. Metta, Rob M :-) 27805 From: Michael Beisert Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:04am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hello Sarah, I never said before and should have, that I appreciate and admire your effort and pacience in providing so many answers and directions. Sarah: No, because only the second would be an act of killing and akusala kamma patha. As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. Michael: OK, I missed that. So, the 'consequential death' is important, then maybe one could infere that the consequential death of many would produce a more potent kamma that only one death. Would this interpretation be acceptable? Metta Michael 27806 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: anapanasati 5 c anapanasati 5 c Sarah: We sometimes discuss the value of the abhidhamma when reading suttas and the following commentary note to the Satipatthana Sutta is one example (amongst many far more detailed ones) of this, followed by a reference to objects visual’ as requested;-) (p.41): ***** "Consciousness and mental objects, too, should be contemplated upon by way of the diversity of the division of object (arammana], dominance [adhipati], conascence [sahajata], plane [bhumi], causal action [kamma], result [vipaka], non-causative functional process [kriya], and so forth [adi], beginning with impermanence [aniccadinam anupassananam vesena] and by way of the division of consciousness that is with passion and so forth come down in the portion of analytical exposition [niddesavare agatasaragadi bhedañca vasena]. Or the divisions of object... non-causative functional process and so forth. Contemplation should be done by way of the division of the blue and so forth pertaining to the variety of objects visual and so forth [rupadi arammana nanattassa niladi tabbhedassa); ..." ***** END QUOTE 1 27807 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 47, 48, seven layers. Hi Larry, op 08-12-2003 01:43 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers > of cotton." > What's this all about? I assume "it" refers to eye sensitivity. N: Sneham/iva satta akkhi/pa.talaani /byaapetvaa oil/like /seven/eye/ layers/ having pervaded/ Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye. I compared with the paralel Expositor text (II, Ch III, p. 403), yes, it is the eye-sensitivity. Please note: all this is not medical science, it is a simile!!! See the word -iva after sneham (oil): just like oil. Iva is like viya: used for a simile. The Expositor says, That is why it is said: Eyesense is a hidden reality, you cannot touch it. But it is there, arising and falling away. You know it is there, otherwise you could not see. (an unobserved rupa that is real all the same!) As you will see in the Tika: Why here the seven layers? Perhaps to indicate that what we take for eye are so many groups of rupa arising and falling away. The seven layers are not the eyesense, but closely connected with it, eyesense cannot arise in isolation. It has to be supported by other groups of rupa produced by citta, heat or nutrition. You had a ? mark after louse head, why? It is only a simile. In fact, it is even smaller. The Tika explains: Note: its procedure: at this very, very small point there is a lot going on: when it is the right time for kamma to produce seeing, there is eyesense that is ready to receive visible object, so that there can be seeing. 48:The General of the Dhamma, this is Sariputta. Nina. P.S. Please note my footnotes in the translation, I hope they help for clarifying difficult points. The post is too long, but by breaking it up, the thread gets lost. People can skip the wordlist. Skroll down to the end for just English and footnotes. 27808 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:09am Subject: Tiika.Vis.47,48 Vis. text: 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. [446] 48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head'. -------------------- Pali: Vis. 47. cakkhu cettha yadeta.m loke niilapakhumasamaaki.n.naka.nhasukkama.n.dalavicitta.m niiluppaladalasannibha.m cakkhuuti vuccati. tassa sasambhaaracakkhuno setama.n.dalaparikkhittassa ka.nhama.n.dalassa majjhe abhimukhe .thitaana.m sariirasa.n.thaanuppattipadese sattasu picupa.talesu aasittatela.m picupa.talaani viya satta akkhipa.talaanibyaapetvaa dhaara.nanhaapanama.n.danabiijanakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatiihi khattiyakumaaro viya sandhaara.nabandhanaparipaacanasamudiira.nakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m aayunaa anupaaliyamaana.m va.n.nagandharasaadiihi parivuta.m pamaa.nato uukaasiramatta.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. 48. vuttampi ceta.m dhammasenaapatinaa -- ``yena cakkhupasaadena, ruupaani manupassati. paritta.m sukhuma.m eta.m, uukaasirasamuupama''nti.. Words: saadheti (saadhayamana): to accomplish. byatireka: what is left, addition. visesa: distinction, difference. joteti: to explain Sariira: body sa.n.thaana (n): shape desa, padesa: location. ka.nha: black ma.n.dala (n): circle pa.tikkhipati : reject. sneha (sunehi): oily liquid akkhi : eye pa.tala (n): lining, film, membrane byaapeti (vyaapeti): pervade aayu: life va.n.na: colour anupaaleti: maintain parivaareti: surround santati :continuity samu.t.thaapaka: originating upatthambheti: to support kalaapa: group Pamaa.na (n): size uuka: louse sira (m,n): head matta: of the size of aavasaanaa: abode samavasarati : to meet Tiika: 47, 48: Pubbe lakkha.naadinaa vibhaavitampi cakkhu.m .thita.t.thaanaadito vibhaavetu.m ³cakkhu cetthaa²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. He said first, ³and there is here an eye², in order to explain the eye as standing in its location and so on, after he had also before explained about its characteristic and so on. Tattha cakkhu saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thatiiti sambandho. Here the connection is, as said, the eye stands accomplishing (its functions of base and door). Ca-kaaro byatirekattho, tenassa vuccamaanameva visesa.m joteti. By the word ³and² there is an additional meaning, he explains its diversity by saying this. Etthaati etesu yathaaniddi.t.thesu pa~ncasu upaadaaruupesu. As to the word here, this means with these five derived material phenomena as explained *. ²Sariirasa.n.thaanuppattidese²ti etena avasesa.m ka.nhama.n.dala.m pa.tikkhipati. As to the expression, the point where the images of the bodies appear, by this he rejects that the black circle is remaining. Snehamiva satta akkhipa.talaani byaapetvaa .thitaaheva attano nissayabhuutaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye, and it stands by itself, assisted by the four great elements on which it depends, tannissiteheva aayuva.n.naadiihi anupaalita.m parivaarita.m and it remains, maintained and protected by life, colour, and so on, tisantatiruupasamu.t.thaapakehi utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m ti.t.thati. supported by the three origination factors in the continuity of materiality, that are heat, consciousness and nutrition. Satta-akkhipa.talabyaapanavacaneneva cakkhussa anekakalaapagatabhaava.m dasseti. By the expression, pervading the seven layers of the eye, he teaches that the eye is connected with several groups of materiality. Pamaa.nato uukaasiramattanti uukaasiramatte padese pavattanato vutta.m. As to the expression, with the seize of a louse head, this was said with regard to its procedure at a point that has only the seize of a louse head. Cakkhuvi~n~naa.nassa vatthubhaava.m nissayabhaavato aavajjanasampa.ticchanaadiina.m tadaaramma.naavasaanaana.m dvaarabhaava.m samavasara.t.thaanato. Its nature is being a base for seeing-consciousness by way of being its dependence, and being a doorway (also) for the adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness and so on, and the retention that dwell (on the object) in the sense of association **. Ta.m paneta.m cakkhu adhi.t.thaanabhedato, Thus this is the eye as to its fixed classification, tatthaapi pacceka.m anekakalaapagatabhaavato and there, taking part in several groups of materiality, it stands by itself, anekampi samaana.m saama~n~naniddesena aavajjanaaya ekattaa, and though it is also diverse in the general explanation, it is one in adverting, ekasmi.m kha.ne ekasseva ca kiccakarattaa eka.m katvaa vutta.m. and since it performs one function at one moment, it is said to be one. Evampi bahuusu kathamekasseva kiccakaratta.m. Though it is also diverse, how is it only one in the performing of its function? Ya.m tattha visada.m hutvaa ³ruupaabhighaataaraha.m², ta.m vi~n~naa.nassa nissayo hotiiti gahetabba.m. As he has made clear, saying, ³ready for impact of visible object², it should be taken as being thus the support for consciousness. Pho.t.thabbaviseso viya kaayavi~n~naa.nassa aaramma.nabhaave. Even as the variety of what is tangible is the object for body-consciousness ***. 48. Manupassatiiti ma-kaaro padasandhikaro, atha vaa manuuti macco. As to the expression, he sees (a visible object), the prefix ³ma² (of manupassati) is an euphonic combination, or, ³manu² means man. ***** Tiika English: He said first, ³and there is here an eye², in order to explain the eye as standing in its location and so on, after he had also before explained about its characteristic and so on. Here the connection is, as said, the eye stands accomplishing (its functions of base and door). By the word ³and² there is an additional meaning, he explains its diversity by saying this. As to the word here, this means with these five derived material phenomena as explained *. As to the expression, the point where the images of the bodies appear, by this he rejects that the black circle is remaining. Just like an oily liquid it (the eyesense) pervades the seven layers of the eye, and it stands by itself, assisted by the four great elements on which it depends, and it remains, maintained and protected by life, colour, and so on, supported by the three origination factors in the continuity of materiality, that are heat, consciousness and nutrition. By the expression, pervading the seven layers of the eye, he teaches that the eye is connected with several groups of materiality. As to the expression, with the seize of a louse head, this was said with regard to its procedure at a point that has only the seize of a louse head. Its nature is being a base for seeing-consciousness by way of being its dependence, and being a doorway (also) for the adverting-consciousness, the receiving-consciousness and so on, and the retention that dwell (on the object) in the sense of association **. Thus this is the eye as to its fixed classification, and there, taking part in several groups of materiality, it stands by itself, and though it is also diverse in the general explanation, it is one in adverting, and since it performs one function at one moment, it is said to be one. Though it is also diverse, how is it only one in the performing of its function? As he has made clear, saying, ³ready for impact of visible object², it should be taken as being thus the support for consciousness. Even as the variety of what is tangible is the object for body-consciousness ***. 48: As to the expression, he sees (a visible object), the prefix ³ma² (of manupassati) is an euphonic combination, or, ³manu² means man. **** _______ *The eyedecad consists of ten rupas in one group: the four great elements, the eyesense, life-faculty, colour, odour, flavour and nutritive essence. Thus, apart from eyesense there are five other derived ruupas. ** Eyesense is base and doorway for seeing-consciousness, and it is doorway for the other cittas in that process. *** The body sensitivity is all over the body, but only at one point at a time there is impingement of tangible object, and only that point is base and doorway for body-consciousness. It is diverse, but also one under the aspect of receiving the impact of tangible object. The eye consists of many groups of rupa, but only one rupa in a group is eyesense, arising and falling away. Kamma keeps on producing it. Also when there is no impingement of visible object, the eyedecad is arising and falling away. It is ready or fit for impact of visible object, and then it is the doorway for the eye-door process cittas, and also the base for seeing-consciousness. The eye-decad is produced by kamma, and it is supported by other groups of rupa produced by citta, heat and nutrition, but in the latter groups there is no eyesense and no life faculty. Only kamma can produce those. ****** Nina. 27809 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:14am Subject: Re: Questions --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James, > Thank you for your the letter that you gave me. I have > some questions to ask you: > 1 Each time when you write you name, why you always > put "Metta, James"? Is "metta" part of you name? > 2 How old are you? > 3 Do you usually have time to play or exercise? > 4 Have you ever been to a temple in some places? > I will be waiting for your answer. > > > Janet Hi Star Kid Janet! You're very welcome for the letter. I see you have some more questions so let me get to them. 1 Each time when you write you name, why you always put "Metta, James"? Is "metta" part of you name? Answer: No, metta is a Pali word that means `loving kindness'. My name is James Mitchell. 2 How old are you? Answer: I am 34. I will be 35 on May 4th. My Zodiac sign is Taurus and my favorite color is blue…oh, you didn't ask all of that did you?? ;-) 3 Do you usually have time to play or exercise? Answer: Yes, I belong to a gym where I work out. It is a small gym here in Cairo but it suits me. I don't play sports or anything like that. Sports really bore me. 4 Have you ever been to a temple in some places? Answer: Yes, I have been to temples in different places. I have been to Buddhist temples in Arizona, California, and Thailand. Maybe Mrs. Abbott can show you a picture of me at a Buddhist temple in Los Angeles, California. It is in the members photos section. Hope these answer your questions. Take care and study hard in school! Metta, James 27810 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:24am Subject: Re: The Buddha Hi Star Kid Sandy! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear James, > > Thankyou for the brilliant reply! James: Brilliant?! That must be why I like writing to you Star Kids, you are so easy to please! ;-) > > What did the Buddha exactly seek for? James: He was seeking the answer to life's suffering. He wanted to know why we are born only to grow old, sick, and then die--and then be reborn again, always suffering throughout. He wanted to know if there was any way to stop this process. Thankfully for everyone, he did find a way...and he taught it to those who wanted to know. > > Have a good weekend! James: You too! :-) > > Metta, > > Sandy Metta, James 27811 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 1:35pm Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 46 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 46 46. Now among these [sensitivities thus] possessed of difference due to difference of kamma, the eye and the ear apprehend non-contiguous objective fields, since consciousness is caused even if the supporting [primaries] of the objective fields do not adhere to the [faculties'] own supporting primaries.22 The nose, tongue and body apprehend contiguous objective fields, because consciousness is caused only if their objective fields' [primaries] adhere to their own supporting [primaries], [that is to say, if the objective fields' primaries adhere] as support [in the case of odours and flavours], and themselves [directly in the case of tangible data, which are identical with the three primaries excluding water]. 46. eva.m kammavisesato visesavantesu ca etesu cakkhusotaani asampattavisayagaahakaani, attano nissaya.m analliinanissaye eva visaye vi~n~naa.nahetuttaa. ghaanajivhaakaayaa sampattavisayagaahakaa, nissayavasena ceva, saya~nca, attano nissaya.m alliineyeva visaye vi~n~naa.nahetuttaa. --------------------- Note 22. See also par. 134 and notes 60, 61. The amplification in this paragraph is from Pm., which continues: 'There is another method: the eye and the ear have non-contiguous objective fields because arising of consciousness is caused while their objective fields are separated by an interval and apart (adhika). Some say that the ear has a contiguous objective field. If it did, then sound born of consciousness would not be the object of ear-consciousness, for there is no arising externally of what is consciousness-originated. And in the texts sound as object is spoken of as being the object of ear-consciousness without making any distinction. Besides, there would be no defining the direction and position of the sound because it would then have to be apprehended in the place occupied by the possessor of the objective field, as happens in the case of an odour. Consequently it remains in the same place where it arose, if it comes into focus in the ear avenue (so the Burmese ed.). Are not the sounds of washermen [beating their washing on stones] heard later by those who stand at a distance? No; because there is a difference in the way of apprehending a sound according to the ways in which it becomes evident to one nearby and to one at a distance. For just as, because of difference in the way of apprehending the sound of words according to the way in which it becomes evident to one at a distance and to one nearby, there comes to be [respectively] not apprehending, and apprehending, of the differences in the syllables, so also, when the sound of washermen (a) becomes [an occurrence] that is evident throughout from beginning to end to one who is nearby, and (b) becomes an occurrence that is evident in compressed form in the end or in the middle to one who is at a distance, it is because there is a difference in the apprehending and definition, which occur later in the cognitive series of ear-consciousness, that there comes to be the assumption (abhimaana) "Heard faintly is heard later". But that sound comes into the ear's focus at the moment of its own existence and in dependence on the place where it arises (see Ch. XIII, par.112; DhsA. 313). If there is absolutely no successive becoming of sound, how does an echo arise? The sound, though it remains at a distance, is a condition for the arising of an echo and for the vibration of vessels, etc., elsewhere as a magnet (ayo-kanta) is for the movement of iron' (Pm. 446-47). 27812 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 2:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Desire and the path to truth .... and Alan's intro ... Hi Alan, Thank you for sharing more about your background. I have a brother and his family living in Manchester and he’s coming to visit us soon (via Moscow -cheapest flight!) As I write this (6am), I’m just about to head off for a yoga class, my first in 9 weeks because of an injury....I’ll be taking it relatively easy;-) --- Alan Bell wrote: > I must admit my heart is sometimestorn though between the desire of > concentrating more fully on a zen buddhist path or deeper yogic path, > as I > think it is difficult (as one gets more advanced) to expend energy on > both - ..... I think you should expend your energy on writing to us here;-) Seriously, I think that the more panna (understanding) develops, the more the problems and dilemmas are seen for what they are - mind games without any right or wrong answers. In other words, whatever way you go, it’s conditioned thinking and action and may change tomorrow, in five minutes time or even next moment.... Jon’s just told me two minutes to go... Metta, Sarah p.s You may like to skip some of the more technical posts for now. Keep firing off your own excellent Qs. ====== 27813 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 47, 48, seven layers. Nina: "You had a ? mark after louse head, why?" Hi Nina, That is B. ~Nanamoli's. I think it is meant to convey that it is unknown where this quote from Sariputta comes from. Larry 27814 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 4:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika.Vis.47,48 Hi Nina, Thanks for all this translation. It would be handy if Num were around to help us with the anatomy. Maybe someone could give him a nudge. In case you were wondering how big a louse head is, here is a link: http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/phthiraptera/ Larry 27815 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Jhana is ecstasy Hi Jeff, How do you manage to suppress the 5 hindrances (nivarana)? I can see 3 possible means: life-style, will, insight. Of course there is also natural ability which is the result of kamma. For myself, I can't concentrate for 2 minutes, or relax without dozing off or spacing out. Larry ---------------------- from Nyanatiloka's "Buddhist Dictionary": nívarana: 'hindrances', are 5 qualities which are obstacles to the mind and blind our mental vision. In the presence of them we cannot reach neighbourhood-concentration (upacára-samádhi) and full concentration (appaná-samádhi), and are unable to discern clearly the truth. They are: 1. sensuous desire (kámacchanda), 2. ill-will (vyápáda), 3. sloth and torpor (thína-middha), 4. restlessness and scruples (uddhacca-kukkucca), and 5. skeptical doubt (vicikicchá; q.v.). In the beautiful similes in A. V, 193, sensuous desire is compared with water mixed with manifold colours, ill-will with boiling water, sloth and torpor with water covered by moss, restlessness and scruples with agitated water whipped by the wind, skeptical doubt with turbid and muddy water. Just as in such water one cannot perceive one's own reflection, so in the presence of these 5 mental hindrances, one cannot clearly discern one's own benefit, nor that of others, nor that of both. Regarding the temporary suspension of the 5 hindrances on entering the first absorption, the stereotype sutta text (e g. A. IX, 40) runs as follows: "He has cast away sensuous desire; he dwells with a heart free from sensuous desire; from desire he cleanses his heart. "He has cast away ill-will; he dwells with a heart free from ill-will, cherishing love and compassion toward all living beings, he cleanses his heart from ill-will. "He has cast away sloth and torpor; he dwells free from sloth and torpor; loving the light, with watchful mind, with clear consciousness, he cleanses his mind from sloth and torpor. "He has cast away restlessness and scruples; dwelling with mind undisturbed, with heart full of peace, he cleanses his mind from restlessness and scruples. "He has cast away skeptical doubt; dwelling free from doubt, full of confidence in the good, he cleanses his heart from doubt. "He has put aside these 5 hindrances, and come to know these paralysing defilements of the mind. And far from sensual impressions, far from unwholesome things, he enters into the first absorption, etc." The overcoming of these 5 hindrances by the absorptions is, as already pointed out, a merely temporary suspension, called 'overcoming through repression' (vikkhambhana-pahána). They disappear forever on entering the 4 supermundane paths (s. ariyapuggala), i.e. skeptical doubt on reaching Sotápanship; sensuous desire, ill-will and mental worry on reaching Anágámiship; sloth, torpor and restlessness on reaching Arahatship. For their origination and their overcoming, s. A. I, 2; VI, 21; S. XLVI, 51. See The Five Mental Hindrances, by Nyanaponika Thera (WHEEL 26). 27816 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 7:24pm Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hi RobM, > > Thanks for your kind efforts - I really appreciate your patience. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine Christine, I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if you could think of a better conceptual model to explain the present reality. If you have answered and I missed it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might be: Should the present moment be any different from the way it is and, if so, why? Thanks in advance, Ken H 27817 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 7:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Sarah (and Michael), -------------- S: > I was reading in the paper today about a man who had been charged with 'grievous bodily harm' for throwing acid at an employer a few weeks back. The employer suffered complications in hospital and now the man has had the charge upgraded to murder. Hmmm.. --------------- The five factors of murder, [the kamma-patha], include the death of the victim. Conventionally, no victim dies in the same billionth of a second as the act of killing but I think, in reality, if he is going to die from that act, the conditions will be there. There is no past and no future and therefore, all deeds and all results are in the same, present, moment. 'looking forward to that message you've been keeping up your sleeve. Even something off the cuff will be fine. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27818 From: Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 3:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/8/03 10:31:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > The five factors of murder, [the kamma-patha], include > the death of the victim. Conventionally, no victim dies > in the same billionth of a second as the act of killing > but I think, in reality, if he is going to die from that > act, the conditions will be there. > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Not necessarily all conditions are there yet. ---------------------------------------- There is no past and> > no future and therefore, all deeds and all results are in > the same, present, moment. ---------------------------------------- Howard: Huh? That's just not so, Ken. Sure, at any time there is just "the present moment". But many of the conditions that led to the present moment being as it is are no longer existing.They *did*, however, occur before. There *is* no past, but there *was*! (Of course, it was then "the present".) If everything occurs right now (not in the trivial sense that it is always considered "now", but in the sense that there is no passage of time, then it is already time to wake up, because I've already had my night's sleep!! ;-) Ken, (psychological) time is the subjective awareness of the stream of events. There is a predecessor relation among mindstates, and so long as that is a reality, there is before and after, there is time. --------------------------------------- > > 'looking forward to that message you've been keeping up > your sleeve. Even something off the cuff will be fine. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27819 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Christine, suppose you say this to A. Sujin, what would she answer? I think:"Dear Christine, what about this moment now?" Let us consider this sincerely, for a moment. Then all this questioning and reasoning just falls away. There is only this very moment, and that is all that matters. We cannot change the past. Just accumulate a tiny, tiny bit of understanding right now. Is'nt that enough? This is like an echo of Azita's words some time ago, I realize. Nina. op 08-12-2003 06:25 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Kamma is such an important part of Buddhism, I'd really like to feel > settled about it, but don't see how to bring this about. > I guess one just has to live "as if" it is true. 27820 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Sarah, your post mademe laugh. Howard's rupaville, nutrition, all those notions we were discussing. S: N: It really is as simple as that. I wish others too could see that nutrition is not so complicated. It is so real. S: < October full-moon, Nina and I will be in India at > the very spot where the Buddha returned after teaching Abhidhamma to his > mother in Tusita;-) You'll be on your own, James;-)> N: O, that is most impressive, I did not know. I feel such gratefulness for the Abhidhamma. And then to be there together with you and Jon! I do not wish James to be left behind, he should come too. I will at such moments think of all my friends. Nina. 27821 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 9:14pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Dear Sarah, I am very grateful for your comments and extracts. This is one of my favorites, you remember Perfections under Patience? It gives the long, beautiful story, but not much about the Co to the sutta itself. I have this in Thai, but had no time to go over it. Nina. op 08-12-2003 10:13 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > > A little later Pukkusaati becomes an anagami (non-returner) when he hears > these further words: 27822 From: Sarah Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 10:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Sarah, your post mademe laugh. > Howard's rupaville, nutrition, all those notions we were discussing. .... Thanks Nina, for taking it in such good humour (and James, good reply;-)). Actually, I hope it’s a lesson to Ken H in what happens when I write off the cuff posts (i.e I just get very silly...) ..... > S: < October full-moon, Nina and I will be in India at > > the very spot where the Buddha returned after teaching Abhidhamma to > his > > mother in Tusita;-) You'll be on your own, James;-)> > N: O, that is most impressive, I did not know. I feel such gratefulness > for > the Abhidhamma. And then to be there together with you and Jon! I do not > wish James to be left behind, he should come too. I will at such moments > think of all my friends. .... ;-) Nina, I feel I must quickly tell you that this was real off the cuff guess-work. I hadn’t checked any of my facts. However, now I’m being a little more methodical. According to a full moon calendar, next October’s full moon is on 27th Oct. According to the itinerary, we’ll be visiting Nalanda and Rajghir that day, including the cave where Sariputta became an arahant and later his home, presumably where his parinibbana took place. It sounds very suitable too for wise reflection on this auspicious day too. (Of course, there is almost a year for the itinerary to be changed around many times, so no use clinging to concepts or relics of the past as Herman would remind us;-)). Metta and apologies for any misunderstanding from my frivolous post. Sarah p.s If any other friends wish to join, they need to take very prompt action as there is already a waiting list etc. =================================================== 27823 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Mon Dec 8, 2003 11:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Ken H > > I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if > you could think of a better conceptual model to explain > the present reality. If you have answered and I missed > it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look > forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might > be: Should the present moment be any different from the > way it is and, if so, why? > k: I was wondering why do you need so many conceptual model to explain reality. Isn't materials now in the sutta, commentaries and text more than enough for studying reality? Why is there a need to seek for more? regards Ken O 27824 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 0:29am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Ken H, This is a really late ambush post as James would say;-) wrote: > Changing the subject > slightly: sankhara-khandhas are sometimes called > 'volitional formations;' (Volition is among their number > and so, I suppose, they are all volitional.) Are sanna > and vedana any less volitional than the other cetasikas? .... Under sankhara khandha in Sammohavinodani (Dispeller, PTS), classification of Aggregates, it says: Cetana (volition) is stated as the principal formation (padhaana or pa.t.thaana-sa’nkhaara-vasena) at the lower end (he.t.thimako.tiyaa). For at the lower end the four formations handed down in the Paali arise actually together with eye-consciousness itself, and among these volition is principal because of its obviousness in the sense of accumulating. That is why that alone is included. But when that is included, the formations connected with it are also included.” In other words, it is sankhara, i.e.cetana which plays the key role in forming and which signifies kamma. I believe sankhara and kamma are both derived from karoti ‘to make’ and are synonymous when used in dependent origination. In sankhara khandha, sankhara refers to all cetana and associated mental factors apart from vedana and sanna, not just to those in the javana process. (Of course, in the still wider meaning of sankhara, all the khandhas are included as conditioned dhammas). As I quoted yesterday from SN,12, 38 (Volition (1)’Cetana’): “Bhikkhus, what one intends (ceteti), and what one plans, and whaever one has a tendency towards: this becomes a basis for the maintenance of consciousness...” The comy told us that ceteti includes all wholesome and unwholesome cetana which with the other factors and anusaya become a condition for cittas that can produce results, rebirth and so on. No need to be polite - how are we doing here? I’d appreciate any of your comments and ideas too. Also see note at end of post.... > -------------------- > S: > On anapanasati - that post of Jon's which Nina re- > sent is a pretty neat summary (imho) if you're still on > your surf-board up until departure and Andrew is still > giving you trouble;-) > ------------------ > > Yes, I have already come across that post in a > couple of places. Along with others like it, it is just > too good to leave out of my summary. .... It was your summary I was after.....;-) I answered the last part of your post on Mahacattarika ages ago, but am ready for another plunge;-) Metta, Sarah p.s Khandhas - I understand the categories are according to clinging as I mentioned before. Khandhas of clinging because of arising and falling away, different at each moment. Clinging clings to rupa, vedana etc. While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha. Lokuttara cittas are not experienced and so cannot be objects of clinging. Nibbana is only experienced by lokuttara cittas. ====== 27825 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 0:54am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness KenH, RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my confusion on him any further. I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected circle for a short period of time, but not in the real world. And "having done a thesis on kamma" wouldn't change that. All day - everyday - I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, bashed women, the helpless and the homeless, lonely and dying, de-frauded elderly people, seriously hurt and permanently disabled young people, distraught people of all ages who seek to 'end' their worries - GOOD people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or deliberately. I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. And if the "proof" for kamma inherited over many lifetimes is supposed to be an extension of what is right before our eyes in this life, then I'd say it fails miserably to be convincing in any way. It isn't a matter of 'giving a better model'. Positing God, chaos, or telepathic emanations from an alien concealed behind the sun are all about equally convincing and have as much proof. So - you asked, I answered, and now what's your hypothesis KenH and with what evidence do you support it? Blind faith, self hypnosis or toeing the party line excepted. Thanks in advance, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hi RobM, > > > > Thanks for your kind efforts - I really appreciate your patience. > :-) > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > > Christine, > > I hope that's not the end of the thread. RobM asked if > you could think of a better conceptual model to explain > the present reality. If you have answered and I missed > it, my apologies, but it's a good question and I look > forward to the answer. Another way of putting it might > be: Should the present moment be any different from the > way it is and, if so, why? > > Thanks in advance, > Ken H 27826 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken H, I wish I could just give quick off the cuff replies to your messages, but usually the points you raise are too difficult for that or there is far too much ignorance for it this end;-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > The translation I have (by David Maurice), says "There is > right understanding that is good and has good results but > yet has some blemishes and so ripens to clinging. It is > the opposite of wrong understanding but still has > elements of self and thought of self. > You have explained, I think, that this is mundane right > view (satipatthana). And also, it is the mundane right > view of a worldling, not of an ariyan. Ariyan right view, > be it mundane or supramundane, does not condition rebirth > (ripen to clinging). > > Then you add: > ---------- > S: > "MA [the comy] says that this is the right view of > insight which understands wrong view as an object by > penetrating its characteristic of impermanence, etc, and > which understands right view by exercising the function > of comprehension and by clearing away confusion." > ----------- > > So it is telling us that mundane insight can have wrong > understanding and right understanding as object. (In this > context, the significance of 'impermanence' and 'clearing > away' escapes me.) .... What I write is just my best guess at the present time as James would say. Insight develops and the fourth vipassana nana is knowledge or the arising and falling away of realities. Fewer and fewer conditions for doubts or confusion, though only finally eradicated by sotapatti-magga citta. I also think this first reference to right view (to which the MA note above refers) is applied to both mundane and supramundane rt view, because it then goes on to discuss the two kinds of rt view. A development of insight which knows more and more precisely what is rt view and what is wrong view. (Of course, wrong view can only be pnetrated directly when it arises, i.e before becoming a sotapanna... ..... > S: > Working back, in footnote 1100 for `pubbangamaa', > lit. "the forerunner", he gives: > > "MA says that two kinds of right view are forerunners: > the right view of insight [as being discussed above], > which investigates formations as impermanent, suffering, > and non-self; and the right view of the path, which > arises as a consequence of insight and effects the > radical destruction of defilements." > ------------- > > Is this a commentary on the preceding stanza which reads: > > "And how does right understanding come first? If > one realises that wrong understanding is wrong > understanding and right understanding is right > understanding, then that is one's right understanding." .... Yes, exactly. .... > > I have been trying to sort this out in terms of wrong, > mundane and supramundane views and whether there is one > that understands all three. If you can explain it > simply, that would be good; otherwise, I'm happy to leave > it in the too-hard basket for a while longer. .... Wrong view understands wrongly as in the examples given. Right view understands realities, impermanence, kamma, khandhas etc. It understands what is ‘right’ and what is ‘wrong’. It understands the characteristic of wrong view when it arises directly or on reflection when it hears wrong view from others. As it said in the quote, the supramundane rt view is the ‘consequence’ of insight or mundane rt view which eradicates defilements such as doubt and wrong view completely. Part 2 coming.... Metta, Sarah ====== 27827 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken H (Steve & All), I’d be very glad for any input Steve can give too. --- kenhowardau wrote: > Getting back to the Mahacattarika Sutta: When you are > reading that sutta, do you get the impression that the > words, "the realisation that wrong understanding is wrong > understanding," are being used to describe all mundane > right understanding? And do you get the impression that > "the realisation that right understanding is right > understanding," [in this instance], describes only > 'supramundane right understanding?' .... No. ..... > In other words, I think 'wrong view' is being used > metaphorically for everything that is not Nibbana and the > Path. And 'right view,' for everything that is. .... Sorry, Ken H, you’ve completely lost me here. Wrong view is carefully defined to indicate it refers to beliefs that kamma doesn’t bring results, no rebirth, no such thing as generosity, no such thing as nibbana or those who have realised it etc. Right view - kamma, morality, rebirth, nibbana, enlightened sangha etc. .... > At Cooran, Steve and I were talking about the second > noble truth. We were wondering why 'clinging' (lobha) is > given as the cause of dukkha. I have slotted this into my > theory: :-) .... Oh, I can see you were having fun in between being mean to flies and building fires;-) ..... > In the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta, the first noble truth > is illustrated as 'birth, decay, death, grief, > lamentation' and so on. But we know that 'joy, > celebration, mundane success,' are also dukkha. It seems > as if the pleasant/wholesome dukkhas are being left out > for the purposes of metaphor. .... “briefly, the five factors of attachment are suffering” (sankhittena pa~ncupaadaanakkhandhaa dukkhaa). So joy, celebration and success are all included. Grief, lamentation etc on account of clinging to the joy, celebration etc. .... >The metaphor highlights > the difference between the dukkhas that are mundane (the > five aggregates of clinging, the first noble truth) from > the dukkhas that are supramundane (the five aggregates of > path consciousness, the fourth noble truth). > I speculate that, for similar reasons, lobha is given as > the cause of dukkha -- even though all six mundane > motivations are responsible. This completes a > simplified, metaphorical picture painted by the profound, > ultimately real, four noble truths: 1, unwholesome, > conditioned reality is due to 2, unwholesomeness, whereas > 3, wholesome unconditioned reality is attained by 4, > wholesomeness. > > What do you think? (Be polite.) > :-) ..... I may need Steve to help me interpret :-) I don’t see any metaphor. It is the attachment to the inherently impermanent and unsatisfactory that is the cause of suffering. I think we can begin to test it out at this moment. I don’t see the 4NT as painting a metaphorical picture either. Also, not just unwholesome conditioned realities but each moment of samsara directly or indirectly is a result of ignorance and attachment. I’m probably just being dense here, Ken H. Hopefully Steve, Andrew or someone better at metaphoring like James can help. Perhaps I'm just running out of steam. Metta, Sarah ====== 27828 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: October thoughts from Cooran Hi Ken H (& Michael), It's OK, this is the last;-) --- kenhowardau wrote: > The interpretations I meant were the ones I referred to > as found in the commentaries to the Satipatthana Sutta. > (about jackalls and babies) > > In my early days of Dhamma study, there were popular > Buddhists books telling me how to 'practise satipatthana.' > The idea was that I should concentrate on (be mindful of) > everything I did in daily life: 'When you are making a > pot of tea, know you are making a pot of tea . . as you > see the tea pot, know you are seeing the tea pot . . as > you reach for it, . . as you feel the elbow straighten . . > the fingers straighten . . the touch of the tea pot . . .' > > These silly, impractical instructions are impossible to > comply with for more than a few seconds; More to the point, > they are ineffective and counterproductive and they make a > mockery of the Dhamma. .... ;-) Funny, as I was lifting the tea pot this morning, I was thinking of this and chuckling to myself.... .... > As you know, it is possible for wholesome consciousness > to experience unwholesome consciousness. By normal > logic, this should not be possible. But, in the > billionth of a second (or so) after a dhamma has ceased > to exist, the succeeding mental factors can know its > characteristics just as clearly as if it were still > there. .... including wrong view;-) .... > That's all I was trying to describe in my previous > message -- vipassana consciousness sharing the same > object as the previous jhana consciousness and so, > effectively, the two operating together. ... Wouldn't the object of the vipassana consciousness be one of the jhana factors or a reality such as the hardness of breath as opposed to the concept experienced by the previous jhana consciousness? Of course when they are coupled, the object (reality) is experienced by jhana level concentration etc. But then the factors are arising together. I'm getting into hot water here too. Nina may need to rescue us. Metta, Sarah ===== 27829 From: bodhi2500 Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:05am Subject: Re: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs......deep breath Hi Sarah and all Sarah wrote: >While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and > falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not > experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha. > ====== Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? Steve 27830 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Ken H (& James), One more... You were discussing the Lokaayatika Sutta (SN12, 48 (8)) with James. Without B.Bodhi’s extensive commentary notes, I’d have had no idea about the meaning. Consider the BB translation for a Xmas presie.... --- kenhowardau wrote: > > As we have discussed before, I need expert help before I > can interpret a sutta with any confidence. What are we to > make of the way the Buddha answered the questions? He > wasn't interested in discussing the four forms of > cosmology but; "Avoiding these two extremes, the > Tathagata teaches the Dhamma via the middle: From > ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. > From fabrications as a requisite condition comes > consciousness. . . ." > > So it seems that the notion "dhammas exist," is one of > the extreme (non-middle), beliefs. .... The notes give details about lokaayata (the science of debate).The commentary indicates that the first and third views are forms of eternalist view (sassatadi.t.thi)and the second and fourth views are forms of annihilationist view (ucchedad.t.thi). The first view was the one about whether all exists and the third one to whether there was unity (ekatta.m). According to the comy, he’s asking whether it has a permanent nature (niccasabhaava). Clearly this is not the same as suggesting paramattha dhammas have anicca sabhaava without any suggestion of permanence. .... > Call me stubborn if you like, but I still think it is > correct to say that dhammas exist absolutely (have their > own sabhava). After all, we have that sutta quoted by > RobertK where the Buddha specifically agrees with the > view that dhammas exist. .... Exactly so. (I mean, we’re in full accord;-)) So when it then refers to the middle path teaching of the Dhamma, it is to the direct understanding of dhammas as anicca, dukkha, anatta as usual. Look f/w to many more of your contributions and discussions. You'll be glad to hear I'm going off for a hike now;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27831 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 2:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi James, I meant to add a note at the time to say I completely agreed with these conclusions below.(it's happening quite often these days;-)). --- buddhatrue wrote: <....> >Take for example this stanza that you quote from the Dhammapada: > > When you see with discernment, > 'All phenomena are not-self' -- > you grow disenchanted with stress. > This is the path > to purity. > > There is obviously a division between discerning that `all phenomena > are not-self' and the final goal of purity (nibbana). However, it > would seem highly illogical that the path and the goal are complete > opposites or unrelated. If the path is viewing things as `non-self' > than the goal might be a true realization of 'non-self'. Right? For > example, if you want to teach someone to cook you don't have them > practice hoop shots, you have them practice cooking. The path and > the goal are related in most teaching situations. ... Nicely put. Metta, Sarah ====== 27832 From: ukvegans Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:03am Subject: my intro and thoughts ... To Sarah & All, Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental buddhist belief :-) However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What do you think ? I have thought of trying to attend a different buddhist group as the Manchester buddhist centre which is part of the FWBO, as the MBC seemed a little too 'organised' if you know what I mean ... ? I long very much sometimes to be have more friends I have things in common with (spirituality), and when I atteneded the Manchester BC I did connect there with the people in the sangha. I certainly do feel that I am suffering from panna (mind games) at the moment and have 'stepped up' my time on meditation lately to try and help with this, do you have any other ideas that may help ... ? You seem very experienced in the dharma Sarah - how did you come to buddhism ? and what is your practice at this time ... ? Also, interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! In light, Alan 27833 From: Egberdina Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:30am Subject: Re: Vism.XIV 47, 48 Hi Everyone, Larry, I know you are the messenger ( and a devoted one at that). A number of us start their waking day by reaching for their glasses. Others may need to race to the bathroom and implant contacts. Others may have contacts that can stay in place. Others may have had surgery to correct the image formed by the lens onto the retina. These marvels ie glasses, contacts, surgery have been made possible by the courage to discard accepted views of how things work. Every chance though, that reading sub-commentaries in a small-type face, or in a dimly lit environment, will wreck that small louses head beyond repair. That's common sense, not kamma. Look after your eyes, and they will look for you :-) Peace Herman PS By the way Sarah, what sort of liquid do you store your falsies in at night :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, LBIDD@w... wrote: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like > a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with > dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be > found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the > white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where > there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. > It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of > cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] > functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior > prince is by the four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, > dressing, and fanning. It is consolidatd by temperature, consciousness, > and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, > odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere > louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for > eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive > series]. [446] > > 48. And this is said by the Geneal of the Dhamma: > > 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object is small and it is > subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head' (?). > -------------------- 27834 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I > had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing > impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my > confusion on him any further. ..... It’s considerate of you to be concerned, but I don’t think RobM was becoming impatient. Regardless, we all know he’s very happy to share the Dhamma whenever he can and from different angles. He has great confidence in the value of this as do you. It’s a kind of dana to give others like him this opportunity for kusala. No need to think of any infliction;-) It sounds corny to say so, but really we all have confusion and obtuseness over certain points or aspects and we learn from those like you who are brave enough to honestly share your difficulties which many others will be relating to. It helps us all question our understanding too (and check whether we're just toeing party lines;-)). Thanks, Chris. (Also to Ken H for the encouragement). Metta, Sarah ===== 27835 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:10am Subject: Vism.EngPali.XIV, 47-48 Vism.EngPali.XIV, 47-48 47. 1. There is what is called 'the eye' in the world. That looks like a blue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The "eye" [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. It is assisted by the four primary elements whose [respective] functions are upholding, cohering, maturing, and moving, as a warrior prince is by four nurses whose functions are holding, bathing, dressing, and fanning. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is furnished with colour, odour, flavour, etc. (see Ch. XVIII, par. 5); it is the size of a mere louse's head; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for eye-consciousness, and the rest [of the consciousness of the cognitive series]. [446] 47. cakkhu cettha yadeta.m loke niilapakhumasamaaki.n.naka.nhasukkama.n.dalavicitta.m niiluppaladalasannibha.m cakkhuuti vuccati. tassa sasambhaaracakkhuno setama.n.dalaparikkhittassa ka.nhama.n.dalassa majjhe abhimukhe .thitaana.m sariirasa.n.thaanuppattipadese sattasu picupa.talesu aasittatela.m picupa.talaani viya satta akkhipa.talaanibyaapetvaa dhaara.nanhaapanama.n.danabiijanakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatiihi khattiyakumaaro viya sandhaara.nabandhanaparipaacanasamudiira.nakiccaahi catuuhi dhaatuuhi katuupakaara.m utucittaahaarehi upatthambhiyamaana.m aayunaa anupaaliyamaana.m va.n.nagandharasaadiihi parivuta.m pamaa.nato uukaasiramatta.m cakkhuvi~n~naa.naadiina.m yathaaraha.m vatthudvaarabhaava.m saadhayamaana.m ti.t.thati. 48. And this is said by the General of the Dhamma: 'The sensitivity with which he sees a visible object Is small and it is subtle too, no bigger than a louse's head' (?). 48. vuttampi ceta.m dhammasenaapatinaa -- ``yena cakkhupasaadena, ruupaani manupassati. paritta.m sukhuma.m eta.m, uukaasirasamuupama''nti.. 27836 From: robmoult Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 5:26am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > RobM had kindly tried to answer the doubts and persistent questions I > had about the buddhist teaching of kamma. I sensed he was growing > impatient with my obtuseness and I decided not to inflict my > confusion on him any further. ===== Oh, I am terribly sorry if I left you with that impression. I assure you, not even a flicker of impatience. I'm an Abhidhamma teacher and have to set a good example, so I can't lie... especially in a Buddhist discussion group :-) ===== > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be > different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist > explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). > I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an > evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected circle > for a short period of time, but not in the real world. ===== I have an in-built faith that good --> good and bad --> bad, but I can fully appreciate how somebody with your experiences could question that point and have a different perspective. I am about to board a flight to Colombo. I am planning a spree at Buddhist bookstores to assist the local economy. Amateurs refer to this activity as "shopping"; we professionals call it "buying" :-) Over the next few days, I will try to "walk a mile in your shoes", Christine. I expect it will be painful; not used to high heels :-) sorry, I am in a weird mood tonight. I expect it will be painful because you witness more suffering in a day than most people witness in a lifetime. Interestingly, you mention the Kalama Sutta above. We might want to consider the four solaces from this sutta as a starting point: "'Suppose there is a hereafter and there is a fruit, result, of deeds done well or ill. Then it is possible that at the dissolution of the body after death, I shall arise in the heavenly world, which is possessed of the state of bliss.' This is the first solace found by him. "'Suppose there is no hereafter and there is no fruit, no result, of deeds done well or ill. Yet in this world, here and now, free from hatred, free from malice, safe and sound, and happy, I keep myself.' This is the second solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) befall an evil-doer. I, however, think of doing evil to no one. Then, how can ill (results) affect me who do no evil deed?' This is the third solace found by him. "'Suppose evil (results) do not befall an evil-doer. Then I see myself purified in any case.' This is the fourth solace found by him. Christine, I want you to know that I will be thinking of you with compassion (karuna; wanting to reduce your suffering) over the next few days. Now that I understand your concern a bit better, I hope that I can find some words in the texts that help to ease your mind. Metta and Karuna, Your Friend, Rob M :-) 27837 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 6:43am Subject: [dsg] Re: Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi James, > > I meant to add a note at the time to say I completely agreed with these > conclusions below.(it's happening quite often these days;-)). > > --- buddhatrue wrote: > <....> > > >Take for example this stanza that you quote from the Dhammapada: > > > > When you see with discernment, > > 'All phenomena are not-self' -- > > you grow disenchanted with stress. > > This is the path > > to purity. > > > > There is obviously a division between discerning that `all phenomena > > are not-self' and the final goal of purity (nibbana). However, it > > would seem highly illogical that the path and the goal are complete > > opposites or unrelated. If the path is viewing things as `non- self' > > than the goal might be a true realization of 'non-self'. Right? For > > example, if you want to teach someone to cook you don't have them > > practice hoop shots, you have them practice cooking. The path and > > the goal are related in most teaching situations. > ... > Nicely put. > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== I think you are considering what I wrote out of context. There was more to this post that you snipped off. I wasn't saying that this is my viewpoint per se (even though you agree with it); I was just saying that this reasoning is something to consider. I would be presumptuous to the extreme to say that this is the way things are because I simply don't know. Theoretical arguments will only get a person so far. I don't have a direct realization of anatta and what it means it relation to issues like karma and transmigration. Perhaps I will have this understanding later, maybe not…but I am not trying to pretend that I do now. Metta, James 27838 From: Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 3:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hi, Christine (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/9/03 3:58:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > All day - everyday - > I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken > bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, bashed women, the > helpless and the homeless, lonely and dying, de-frauded elderly > people, seriously hurt and permanently disabled young people, > distraught people of all ages who seek to 'end' their worries - GOOD > people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or > deliberately. I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, > somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they > inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. > ========================= I think it is extremely simplistic, and, in its extreme form contradictory. First of all, the Buddha denied that all that comes to one comes from his/her past actions. Also, and here is the contradictoriness, if all that happens to A is due to A's past actions, then B should not be "guilty" in attacking A, and not "earn any bad kamma points"! As I see it, a volitional action that *had* to be performed independent of that volition, is a contradiction in terms. As I see it, during certain events, there *may* be innocent victims. (Not *always* - there can be contributing kamma vipaka of the victim - but we cannot tell when that is a factor or not.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27839 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi Howard, I followed with interest your dialogue with Christine. Most people will agree that there are transgressions as to livelihood which are coarse defilements. This is of the level of viitikkama kilesa, coarse defilements. I am particularly interested in what you say about the momentary aspect, this goes to the heart of the matter. I would just like to add a few remarks. op 06-12-2003 16:02 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > It seems to me that what really happens at all happens at a moment in > time, on some occasion... (snip) The same > applies to Right Action and Right Speech. All of these have their "critical > points" > occurring at moments in time, on specific occasions, and they are matters, in > specific areas, of volition that is immediately expressed in action or is > determinative of future action. The rest of the time, there is a sort of > "coasting" that is rather neutral. Or so it seems to me. N: As you say, We also find this in the Dhammasangani: § 121: Now, at that time, there are dhammas... Or: At that occasion there is contact,... and a long list of dhammas follows. This is deep in meaning! Volition certainly is an important factor, but there are also other cetasikas performing their functions at the moment of abstaining. As you know, there are three cetasikas performing the functions of abstention, virati cetasikas: abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong livelihood. It is good to know different degrees of them. There are not only coarse defilements, also medium defilements (pariyutthana kilesa) and the latent tendencies. We may not tell a lie, but exaggerating our story, so that it is not quite true. In the Vis. we read about beansoupery: some things are true, some are not, just as in a soup some beans are cooked, some are not quite cooked. Also the monks can engage in wrong livelihood, trying to become popular, meditating in public, hinting when they like to obtain requisites. In Ch 1 the Vis. gives the explanation of all aspects of sila, one of them the guarding of the sense-doors. When there is mindfulness of nama and rupa sati keeps one from transgressing. One is about to say an unpleasant word, but sati can perform its function. One does not press that button to send a harsh mail. But, we can have beautiful intentions, and why do we still engage in what is akusala? Why so much aversion when there is blame? The harsh word is spoken before we realize it, the button is pushed before we realize it. It is all "at some occasion" and these occasions arise, so quickly and beyond control. Different conditions are cooperating. The latent tendencies get the better of us. They are strong and have soil to grow in. They are the defilements that can only be eradicated at the stages of enlightenment. They are subtle defilements, but strong. It needs a refined understanding to go to the root of defilements. As to the first: sense desire-clinging, all kinds of objects in this world are included, praise, blame, etc. I shall quote part of my transl from Thai of latent tendencies: Thus, the momentary aspect is essential. Momentary realities are investigated by awareness of each reality that presents itself. Included have to be all the moments of akusala, whether we like it or not. When I say beyond control, I mean: they arise already in the process of cittas. This is like a natural law (nyaama). But, there is a remedy. The development of understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. By the study of latent tendencies we learn more about the conditions for akusala that arises. Then we find "our akusala" less important. This helps us also not to dwell so long on it, to be oppressed by it. Nina. 27840 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: anapanasati 6 a anapanasati 6 a We have to go back to the fourth tetrad of the sutta: (XIII) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating impermanence²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating impermanence². (XIV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating fading away²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating fading away². (XV) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating cessation²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating cessation². (XVI) He trains thus ³I shall breathe in contemplating relinquishment²; he trains thus ³I shall breathe out contemplating relinquishment². (then as translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka:) <..on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. Having see with understanding what is the abandoning of covetousness and grief, he becomes one who looks on with complete equanimity. That is why on that occasion, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu abides contemplating mental objects in mental objects, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful ,having put away covetousness and grief with regard to the world. That is how respiration-mindfulness, developed and repeatedly practised, perfects the four foundations of mindfulness.> **** The Visuddhimagga (VIII, 237) states about the fourth tetrad, ŒThis tetrad deals only with pure insight while the previous three deal with serenity and insight.¹ As regards the words of the fourth tetrad, ³(XIII) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating impermanence², the Visuddhimagga (VIII, 234) states: Œ ... Impermanence is the rise and fall and change in those same khandhas, or it is their non-existence after having been; the meaning is, it is the break-up of produced khandhas through their momentary dissolution since they do not remain in the same mode. Contemplation of impermanence is contemplation of materiality, etc., as ³impermanent² in virtue of that impermanence...¹ Nina. 27841 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika.Vis.47,48, NUM Hi Larry, look, Larry, this is the way to give a nudge. He checks mail once a day, I believe. op 09-12-2003 01:30 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: It would be handy if Num were around to > help us with the anatomy. Maybe someone could give him a nudge. In case > you were wondering how big a louse head is, here is a link: > http://www.ent.iastate.edu/imagegal/phthiraptera/ N: I would like to hear Num but not for medical reasons, but because of his understanding of the Dhamma. Again, this is only a simile and nothing more. Sometimes a knowledge of Ayurveda comes in handy to understand why such or such simile is used. I remember the posts about kamma not being the only cause for happenings, and bile. People in olden times had questions about realities and then such similes were used. Also the lousehead is only a simile. Thanks for the link, but I have no time to look at it. Another aspect we should pay attention to: eyesense is a faculty, indriya produced by kamma. Eyesense can be keen or weak, depending on kamma. Faculties: see Vis. XVI. A faculty is a "leader" in its own field. Some are rupas, some namas. XVI, 6 XVI, 10: As to function. < Firstly, because of the words "The eye-base is a condition, as faculty condition, for the eye-consciousness-element and for the states associated therewith [N: cetasikas] (Ptnl.5), the eye's faculty's function is to cause by its own keenness, slowness, etc., the occurrence of eye-consciousness and associated states, etc., in a mode paralel to its own, which is called their keenness, slowness, etc. , this function being accomplished through the state of faculty condition.> Thus the keenness or slowness of the eyefaculty conditions seeing. We have to study faculties, indriyas, so that we can also understand what follows in our text about femininity faculty, and other faculties. Nina. 27842 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:29am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Ken O and Christine, After re-reading my original message, I can see why you both find it less than totally satisfactory :-) What a mess. Sorry about that. Ken O wrote: -------------- k: I was wondering why do you need so many conceptual model to explain reality. Isn't materials now in the sutta, commentaries and text more than enough for studying reality? Why is there a need to seek for more? -------------- I agree, there is no need at all. I should define my terms: Reality is namas and rupas -- arising and falling away. A conceptual model explains what they are and why they behave the way they do. The description of kamma and vipaka is the model RobM and Christine were talking about. (before I butted in) "What better model could there be," was the question I wanted them to keep discussing. Christine, you wrote: ----------------- . . . . > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be different ------------- No, that was me. It seemed like a good idea at the time. The present moment is conditioned by the present namas and rupas and all the other namas and rupas that ever went before it -- over untold lifetimes. There is no way the present moment could be any different -- no element of chance, no decree of an almighty god. I think that's how it should be, don't you? -------------- C: > - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is an evidently common experience. --------------- Yeah b't. . that's what the Buddha taught. That's what we're studying. We don't have proof, we haven't proved it for ourselves, we are uninstructed worldlings. --------------- C: > Maybe in a small and protected circle for a short period of time, but not in the real world. And "having done a thesis on kamma" wouldn't change that. All day - everyday I see and hear about just the opposite; cigarette burns, broken bones, or stab wounds on babies and children, <. . . > - GOOD people who have awful, chaotic things happen, 'accidently' or deliberately. ----------------- How can we possibly explain these things if not by the laws of kamma and vipaka? We both find blind chance and Almighty God unacceptable. No, kamma/vipaka has all the answers. Admittedly, it's hard when you see suffering in real life. It makes it harder if we differentiate between good people and bad people but that's what we worldlings do. -- even though we are told samsara is a giant ferris wheel (now we're good people. . . . now we're bad people. . . now we're good people). In the long run, we're all just people. ------------------- C: > I think it extremely simplistic to decide somewhere, somehow, somewhen they brought it on themselves - i.e. 'they inherited the result of actions done by the continuum previously'. ------------------- When you simply study namas and rupas (not "my" nama and rupa, not "their" nama and rupa, just nama and rupa), is there any problem? No. Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like Brian. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27843 From: Michael Beisert Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hello KenH & Sarah, KenH Call me stubborn if you like, but I still think it is correct to say that dham?as exist absolutely (have their own sabhava). After all, we have that sutta quoted by RobertK where the Buddha specifically agrees with the view that dhammas exist. Sarah: Exactly so. (I mean, we’re in full accord;-)) Michael: An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated from other things. If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on another. If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. This is eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. Metta Michael 27844 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Sarah, There's not much of my theorising you haven't thoroughly squashed. I feared as much. But thank you, it had to be done. It's time for my fortnightly trip to Brisbane. I will reply properly in a day or two. Kind regards, Ken H -- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Sarah wrote: > Hi Ken H (Steve & All), > > I'd be very glad for any input Steve can give too. > > --- kenhowardau wrote: > > > Getting back to the Mahacattarika Sutta: When you are > > reading that sutta, do you get the impression that the > > words, "the realisation that wrong understanding is wrong > > understanding," are being used to describe all mundane > > right understanding? And do you get the impression that > > "the realisation that right understanding is right > > understanding," [in this instance], describes only > > 'supramundane right understanding?' > .... > No. > ..... > > In other words, I think 'wrong view' is being used 27845 From: nordwest Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Alan / my intro and thoughts ... Dear Alan, In Buddhism, it is beleived that what we are is mind and consciousness. Everything else we believe to be, is an illusion. Maybe you just use thw word "soul" for "consciousness", many people do so. The Soul would include things as emotions and knowledge, as far as I know, but the consciousness perceives the things how they are without thinking, it is the non-thinking mind. Hinduism and buddhism are not too far away from another, the revolutionary thing of buddha was the attainment of complete enlightenment, which cannot be attained thorugh any samadhi. However, the first steps are various samadhis in mediatation. thomas ukvegans wrote: To Sarah & All, Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental buddhist belief :-) However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What do you think ? 27846 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to Dear Sarah and Steve, op 09-12-2003 11:05 schreef bodhi2500 op seisen_@h...: > > Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making > it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? N: upaadi.n.na, clung to, this is usually said of those rupas of the body produced by kamma. See Dsgn lists. Soon we get this in the Tiika. Also a note in the Wheel 101 about: Discourse on Elephant's Footprint, which states this, and in a general sense it can also be used for the whole body, since it is clung to by conceit, craving and wrong view. Nina. 27847 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: karoti, sankhara. Dear Sarah, Excuse me, just a small remark about the Pali karoti: to act, also build up. sankhaara: note the *h*, a different stem. preparation. what is put together, compounded, formed up, conditioned. I agree with your comments. Nina. op 09-12-2003 09:29 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > In other words, it is sankhara, i.e.cetana which plays the key role in > forming and which signifies kamma. I believe sankhara and kamma are both > derived from karoti to make’ and are synonymous when used in dependent > origination. In sankhara khandha, sankhara refers to all cetana and > associated mental factors apart from vedana and sanna, not just to those > in the javana process. (Of course, in the still wider meaning of sankhara, > all the khandhas are included as conditioned dhammas). 27848 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 9:08pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Christmas and a confession. Dear Sarah, op 09-12-2003 07:32 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > According to a full moon > calendar, next October’s full moon is on 27th Oct. According to the > itinerary, we’ll be visiting Nalanda and Rajghir that day, including the > cave where Sariputta became an arahant and later his home, presumably > where his parinibbana took place. It sounds very suitable too for wise > reflection on this auspicious day too. (Of course, there is almost a year > for the itinerary to be changed around many times, so no use clinging to > concepts or relics of the past as Herman would remind us;-)). N: yes, I am clinging to concepts far too much!! And seemingly noble things. And not only concepts. Name it and I cling. The latent tendencies are so strong. But we can learn from this. The study and reflection about them is sobering up. The itinary never changed, as far as we experienced, when Kh Suwat was in charge. There was once trouble between Hindus and Moslems, and he had to change times slightly, but after all he managed fine. Only the hotel changed sometimes, because the group was large. There is no worry with him in charge. Nina. 27849 From: Sarah Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 11:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: karoti, sankhara. Hi Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Excuse me, just a small remark about the Pali karoti: to act, also build > up. > sankhaara: note the *h*, a different stem. preparation. what is put > together, compounded, formed up, conditioned. I agree with your > comments. .... Thank you for your comments. From the first entries for these terms in the PTS dict, what you say makes sense: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Sankhara (p. 664) [fr. san+kr, not Vedic, but as sanskara Epic & Class. Kamma (p. 190) (nt.) [Vedic karman, work esp. sacrificial process. For ending °man=Idg. *men cp. Sk. dhaman=Gr. dh=ma, Sk. naman=Lat nomen] the doing, deed, work; orig. meaning (see karoti) either building (cp. Lit. kurti, Opr. kura to build) ..... I was being guided by comments of B.Bodhi’s in his introduction to SN which I’d read before and just assumed (with regard to the Pali) were correct. He writes: “ ‘Sa’nkhaara’ is derived from the prefix sa.m (=con), “together.” and the verb ‘karoti’, “to make”....................As the second factor in the formula of dependent origination, ‘sa’nkhaaras are the kammically active volitions responsible, in conjunction with ignorance and craving, for generating rebirth.........’Sa’nkhaaraa is synonymous with ‘kamma’, to which it is etymologically related, both being derived from ‘karoti’.....” ***** Thank you for pointing out that this probably is not correct. Perhaps we can confirm it with Jim when he returns or Steve may add a comment too. Meanwhile I'll be more careful about Pali points I'm just repeating without checking more carefully;-) Metta, Sarah ===== 27850 From: Date: Tue Dec 9, 2003 7:40pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi, Nina - Thank you for the detailed reply. I found nothing in it to make me "uncomfortable." ;-)) I add a brief comment to one closing point of yours: In a message dated 12/9/03 1:38:15 PM Eastern Standard Time, nilo@e... writes: > Thus, the momentary aspect is essential. Momentary realities are > investigated by awareness of each reality that presents itself. Included > have to be all the moments of akusala, whether we like it or not. When I say > beyond control, I mean: they arise already in the process of cittas. This is > like a natural law (nyaama). But, there is a remedy. The development of > understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. > ========================== The remedy at any moment consists of maintaining mindfulness of all that arises, whether pleasant or unpleasant to "look at," together with recollecting and renewing the understanding and right intention that one has so far developed based on prior practice and study of the Buddha's teachings. In addition to looking clearly at what arises, and, in fact, *in order* to do so, we need to actively *recall* what is moral and what is useful, not merely depending on automatically doing the right thing. I see right understanding and right intention, from the very beginning, in their most ordinary form leading to enhancement of the other six factors, which then, in turn, lead to higher-level understanding and intention and further enhancement of the other factors, each factor impacting each other factor, in rounds and rounds of an outward and upward spiral tending towards enlightenment and liberation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27851 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 0:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to (NUM;-)) Dear Nina & Steve (& Num), --- nina van gorkom wrote: Steve: > > Wouldn't "eye-sense" be "capable of being clung to" therefore making > > it an upadanakhandha, whether it was being clung to or not? > N: upaadi.n.na, clung to, this is usually said of those rupas of the body produced by kamma. See Dsgn lists. Soon we get this in the Tiika. Also a note in the Wheel 101 about: Discourse on Elephant's Footprint, which states this, and in a general sense it can also be used for the whole body, since it is clung to by conceit, craving and wrong view.< ..... I knew my comment would be controversial and added it at the end of the post because I knew I was walking on ice;-)That was sharp of you, Steve and thanks for reading my messages so carefully;-). I discussed these points with K.Sujin on the last trip and also repeated, like Steve, that any conditioned realities (except lokuttara cittas) were ‘capable of being clung to’ and therefore upadana khandha as we discussed before with BB’s helpful comments too. However, K.Sujin stopped me and stressed that upadana khandha applies just to what is experienced and therefore likely to be clung to at this moment. It depends on rapidly changing vipaka as to what is experienced through the sense doors as we discussed in the pig dung and inherent nature of rupas thread. In fact she asked me whether eyesense was experienced and I said of course it wasn’t. As you wrote to Larry, Nina, “eyesense is a hidden reality, you cannot touch it. But it is there, arising and falling away.” In other words, there may well be clinging to a concept of eyesense, but not to eyesense itself, being a ‘hidden’ or subtle rupa only capable of being experienced in the mind door process. Of course, the Abhidhamma lists all possibilities which is why I wrote: Sarah: >Clinging clings to rupa, vedana etc. While in theory upaadaanakkhandha can apply to any conditioned reality (except lokuttara cittas), the meaning, as I understand, refers to the reality experienced and clung to now. In other words, it refers to the arising and falling away of what is actually experienced. If eye-sense is not experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha.< So, capable of being clung to as you say, Steve, but of course the teachings have to apply to realities now, I think. I may have overstated and there is always so much more to discuss about khandhas that we can also raise it again next time in Bkk. What I understood and mentioned made good sense to me, but I’ll appreciate any further comments either of you have. I can’t find Wheel 101. If the note isn’t too long, I’d be interested in it, otherwise never mind. Also do you have a Dhammasangani ref, otherwise I’ll look when I have time. Metta, Sarah I’m not sure how relevant it is, but as we’re trying to catch NUM’s attention, in a different context he was raising qus about the Mahapunnama Sutta, MN109, as I recall. In this sutta we read about the upadana khandhas rooted in desire. We read that ‘the clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates affected by clinging.It is the desire and lust in regard to the five aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.’ The Buddha is then asked about the diversity in the desire regarding the upadana khandha and explains the various wishes or desires that may arise. Num, we’re all trying to get your attention - could you say something about kammaguna (sp?), pleasant rupas and the points. ================================================ 27852 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Hi Alan, Thanks for continuing this discussion. --- ukvegans wrote: > Thanks very much for your e-mail. The dilemma I have between Yoga > (steeped in Hinduism) and Buddhism, is that I ultimately believe that > there is a Self (or immortal soul), which is against fundamental > buddhist belief :-) .... I think this is just honest.As other friends have commented here, we can repeat there is no self, but it doesn’t mean there is any direct understanding of experiences as anatta or that ‘self’ or ‘soul’ are seen to be mere concepts or illusions. I think it helps to begin to question what exactly is this Self we believe in and how it is experienced. This doesn’t mean we have to change our habits or beliefs over night. I liked this post which Ken H wrote a lot on this subject: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m21958.html .... > However, I do love the Buddha dharma which is very similar to > Patanjali's eight limbs of Yoga as a way to live one's life ... but I > have read that it is important, as one develops a more advanced > practice to concentrate on one path e.g. Yogic versus Buddhism. What > do you think ? ..... I think the best thing is to take it easy, live naturally and develop more understanding however one’s life unfolds. I’ve been doing yoga for as long as I’ve been studying Buddhism. At the yoga centre I visit, we recite a verse paying respect to Patanjali. There is much that I don’t agree with in the words, but it’s just part of the ritual and so I go along with it and don’t have any conflicts. There can be ‘Buddhist practice’ at any time - even in a Hindu temple. It always comes back to the present moment and present realities. For example, whilst we’re worrying about making the right choices or about results of future kamma or whether we can accept there is no self, what is being experienced? Surely it’s thinking and worrying and attachment to oneself and other experiences which can all be known, regardless of the time and place. ... > I have thought of trying to attend a different buddhist group as the > Manchester buddhist centre which is part of the FWBO, as the MBC > seemed a little too 'organised' if you know what I mean ... ? > > I long very much sometimes to be have more friends I have > things in common with (spirituality), and when I atteneded the > Manchester BC I did connect there with the people in the sangha. .... I think may of us will appreciate these feelings and have experienced them often. A very long time ago I visited one Manchester buddhist group with Nina, when she was invited to talk about abhidhamma to Lance Cousin’s group. But, I have no idea now about these centres - I’m out of touch. Alan, I sincerely hope you will stay with us long enough to consider us as your good friends in Dhamma. I’m sure you’ll find many friends here can totally relate to your dilemmas and feelings of spiritual isolation. I think you’ll find we’re a very friendly bunch. My brother and niece will be arriving shortly from M/C - perhaps after touring around with me for two weeks, they’ll be inspired to take more interest and then you can meet them on return;-) My niece is also a keen yogi. .... I > certainly do feel that I am suffering from panna (mind games) at the > moment and have 'stepped up' my time on meditation lately to try and > help with this, do you have any other ideas that may help ... ? ..... My no 1 suggestion is to keep asking questions and considering here on DSG. Ignore anything that is too difficult for now. Nina has written a book which you might find helpful called ‘Buddhism in Daily Life’. You can find it on line at: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Others may give different advice;-) Lots of controversy on DSG. .... > You seem very experienced in the dharma Sarah - how did you come to > buddhism ? and what is your practice at this time ... ? .... I think I’ve just been reading and considering and listening for a while, but not experienced;-) How did I come to Buddhism? Hmmm.... I have to think. One summer while I was at uni studying psychology, I went to work on a kibbutz in Israel. I was reading books on different religions, the Bhagavad Gita, and so on, but I kept coming back to a chapter in a book on Buddhism and particularly the aspects on anatta. I’d long since rejected Christianity and was definitely looking for teachings that could be tested and proved and which could help me understand how the mind worked in a way that psychology was unable to. A year later, I was very determined to travel overland to India and pursue these ideas and seek further and also to visit yoga ashrams;-) In fact I pursued the Buddhist interests but never got to the yoga ashrams. ... >Also, > interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me > off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! .... I hope they all mail you on line so we can all share. What I gave above was the kind of answer I think you wished to hear. Another answer would be that if we can accept that for aeons and aeons life has continued on in different planes of existence, then we’ve heard different teachings over and over again and there are many complex causes as to why we may have such an interest in the Dhamma now. We can never work out all these factors. I look forward to hearing more from you, Alan. I look forward to more of your comments and qus. Please don’t mind if some of us are slow to reply at times. Metta, Sarah ======== 27853 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:21am Subject: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Dear Group, Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27854 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Hang-ups and Pure Mind/Buddha Nature Hi Michael, There are two or three posts I planned to write to you today, but no time and distracted on other threads;-) I have quotes on killing too, but pls be patient. Many thanks for your various comments. I can't do a dashed 'off the cuff number' to you either. I may leave this one to last to see if Ken H replies first too;-) Metta, Sarah ===== --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Michael: > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing > an > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > > from other things. > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > another. > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A > change > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary > property, > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. > This is > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. 27855 From: Alan Bell Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] more thoughts & my philosophy. Thanks Sarah and all for the replies thus far. I have studied and still practise the Buddha dharma and Patanjali's Yoga Sutras - and continue to take from them that which I feel is workable for me, if you like my own personal philosophy. I do not label myself a Buddhist, Yogi or even a vegan (even though I don't eat meat or dairy). I feel that to label oneself is to limit oneself :-) My own philosophy is based on common sense, most of the values or principles I live by are quite simple - but have come this way through my own practise and a likely elevation of conciousness ? In fact I believe that the more simple we live our lives the more at peace and content we become/remain. I lead an ethical life based on non harm to either myself or others, and also have the wisdom to know that I am not perfect and neither are other people ; this is part of surrendering to what is. What is my motivation for living this way ? - the understanding of kharma. I also try to lead a healthy lifestyle, I watch what I eat, I don't smoke, exercise and only drink alcohol in moderation. I also try to practise positive thinking and mindfulness throughout the day. Activities which I enjoy that support this is are meditation, yoga (asana) and chanting mantra (buddhist and hindu). I believe that we are here in this lifetime to grow and move from darkness to light, with the ultimate goal of opening our hearts. This is the greatest gift of life. We are here to shine, here to brighten all, brighten everything, banish darkness and shine radiantly ;-) Peace & light, Alan 27856 From: phamdluan2000 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:10am Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa My dear Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: Dear Group, Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? metta and peace, Christine KKT: I see that the problem of Anatta perturbs you a lot, does it not? :-)) If you continue to see everything << according >> to Abhidharma then it is not for << real >> :-)) Why don't you try to feel, to sense this << self >> inside yourself? Answer for yourself, "What is it?" Can "it" do anything, control anything? Feel "it", sense "it" for << real >> Best wishes, KKT 27857 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Christine - In a message dated 12/10/03 5:30:05 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > Dear Group, > > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: I would laugh heartily! And I would do so because theirs is a trivial observation almost always correctly made about any random person encountered, and, secondly, because I would most likely have no reason to take what they have to say seriously to begin with. (Who are they, and what do they know?) ----------------------------------------------- > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Is that so? Is that what Abhidhamma maintains? Well, okay about there being no self to do anything - but the rest? Why in the world should anyone take the slightest interest in an area of thought which, contrary to what the Buddha provided in his teaching of 45 years recorded in the suttas, maintains that there is nothing to be done to put an end to suffering, and that either this end to suffering will happen (should appropriate conditions somehow arise) or not, but with nothing doable to affect the process? Why in the world should you or I or any of us pay even a moment's attention to a doctrine of despair which maintains that there are no voluntary actions that can be initiated which create conditions that set the ball rolling towards liberation and help keep that ball moving? I think that Abhidhamma, while not the direct word of the Buddha, is still far better than the picture you paint. I think that the hopelessness, total-lack-of-control take on Abhidhamma is an extreme interpretation put forward by some (and approximated in varying degrees by many) that skates on a tiny patch of thin ice right between the treacherous areas of lockstep determinism and utter randomness. I think it is a kind of nihilist position that is a dangerous near-enemy of the Dhamma. ------------------------------------------------- How,then, > > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: By following the Buddha's prescription for the cultivation of sila, samadhi, and pa~n~na. By constantly reminding oneself of the teachings, and applying them. By being consistently kind and respectful, by calming the mind further with focussed meditation, and by being constantly watchful *with an eye* towards seeing the tilakkhana in all dhammas. With regard to this last, I have recently "discovered" that the Dhamma is to be seen right here and now in this psychophysical flow of experience with a richness and potential that is *amazing*. Just seeing, really seeing, how nothing at all (sights, for example) remain for even a moment is a revelation! The world speeds away at a breathtaking rate, perhaps infinite. How can one time the duration of what doesn't last at all? Other than the original teachings of the Buddha, I find no books or papers these days that are of any real help to me, but this lack is more than balanced by the richness of support that reality itself provides. -------------------------------------------------- > > metta and peace, > Christine > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27858 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 1:29am Subject: His 10-fold Powers! Friends: The 10 Powers of a Buddha: 1: He knows what are the causes & not-causes of any event & thing. He knows the possible as possible & the impossible as impossible. 2: He knows the results of any past, present & future action. 3: He knows the destination of any way, path & course. 4: He knows the diversity of forms in any world & dimension. 5: He knows the diverse character & inclination of any being. 6: He knows the different abilities & possibilities of any being. 7: He knows the obstruction, clearing, reaching, emerging, release & concentration of any meditation. 8: He knows and remembers his prior lives in every detail. 9: He knows & sees the decease & rearising of the various beings. 10: He knows directly the elimination of the mental fermentations. --oo0oo-- Source: The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha MN [I 69] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X The Book of Gradual Sayings AN [V 32] http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132552 In equanimity & even ease. Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. Friendship is truly Greatest ! 27859 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Ken H, op 09-12-2003 20:29 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least > bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking > about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the > theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the > world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- > citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and > acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely > grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever > we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like > Brian. N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations afterwards with Brian? But I also understand Christine: nama and rupa now, that is not what she is waiting to hear. She has terrible experiences first hand. But still, what you said, citta and all that)>, is the key to the remedy. This is why the Buddha said that the cycle is dukkha. The Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. Now I quote from my : Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. N: As regards kamma: akusala kamma produces an undesirable result and kusala kamma produces a desirable result, and this is niyaama, a fixed order of dhammas. It cannot be altered. As regards functions of citta: cittas which experience objects through the senses and the mind-door arise in series or processes of citta. Each of the cittas arising in a process performs its own function. For example, when cittas in the eye-door process experience visible object, seeing-consciousness performs the function of seeing, and shortly afterwards kusala cittas or akusala cittas arise in that process, which perform their own function. There is a certain fixed order of cittas within a process and this order cannot be altered. The ³Gradual Sayings² (I, 285) Ch XIV, §134, Appearance states: "Monks, whether there be an appearance or non-appearance of a Tathaagata, this causal law of nature (dhaatudhamma.t.thitataa), this orderly fixing of things (dhammaniyaamataa) prevails, namely, All phenomena are impermanent..." The same is said with regard to the nature of dukkha and anattaa.> But, the Buddha gave us the solution to get out of this cycle of dukkha, namely the development of right understanding. I apppreciate it that James keeps on reminding us, do we experience what we say about nama and rupa? Or, when we say, there is nama and rupa now? No, not yet, but this does not keep us from beginning to understand at least in theory that this is the way. We have accumulated also the latent tendency of wrong view, but intellectual right understanding stemming from listening and considering is one of the conditions for insight. The processes of citta are also dukkha: clinging arises, and then conditioned by it aversion, all those tears we shed. This is part of nyaama, it seems to occur automatically. It just happens. I am thinking of the sutta (S II) Victor is so much impressed by about the amount of tears, compared to the ocean. When Christine helps others, there are metta and compassion and at such moments there is no room for aversion, no tears. It is good she is in the position to help many people, anumodana. Her situation also makes me think of Gradual Sayings, Book of the Fours, (II, 113) The goad. A simile of four kinds of horses is used, who are agitated by the goad in degrees, to the extent of being pricked to the very bone. This is compared to a man when he hears about the death and affliction of someone in another village, or sees it himself, or experiences the death and affliction of a family member. And the fourth case: <.. but he himself is stricken with painful bodily feelings, grievous, sharp, racking, distracting, discomforting, that drain the life away. Thereat he is stirred, he feels agitation. Being so stirred he strictly applies himself. Thus applied he both realizes with his own person the supreme truth and sees it by penetrating it with wisdom...> The Co adds that magga-panna with insight realizes nibbana. Such grievous situations that are all around us can remind us of the necessity to develop panna which eventually is the condition for being freed of dukkha. It gives us a sense of urgency. We need courage to go on developing understanding. Nyaama, the law of Dhamma is not fatalism, it is as it is, but the Buddha gave us the remedy. Now back to my translation of latent tendencies, I need some more sobering up! Nina. 27860 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Dear Michael, I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term sabhava. Can it be a matter of translation? It just means: each dhamma has its own characteristic, and speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away immediately. No question of essentialism. Seeing has its own characteristic, quite different from thinking or from hearing. We begin to learn about these different characteristics (visesa lakkha.na) when they appear, and there is no need to think about them. This is the beginning of insight, leading eventually to more understanding of the three general characteristics, sama~n~na lakkha.na, of impermanence, dukkha and anatta. I know I have said something similar before, but perhaps I did not express myself clearly. Nina. op 09-12-2003 20:30 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > from other things. > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > another. > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. This is > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. 27861 From: Htoo Naing Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:07am Subject: How To Get Through The Samsara ( 08 ) Dear Dhamma Friends, The Dhamma practitioner has sat for an hour as a start in his early morning meditation. Through out the whole hour, he has put his mind on his breaths. He was fully aware of his breath. As soon as he started his sitting meditation, he put his mind on his breath. He had been well concentrated on his breath. He knows the start of his inhaling breath. He knows continuing inhaling. He knows near end of his breath. He knows the end of his breath. He knows there is a minor pause at the end of his inhalation of in-breath. He knows the beginning of his exhaling breath. He knows his continuous exhalation. He knows near end of his exhalation. He knows the end of his exhalation. He knows there is a long pause after exhalation before the next breath starts. He is fully aware of the whole breath including pauses and inhalation and exhalation. His mindfulness is so sharp that his whole mind is on his breath only. He knows his breathing if it is long as long and if short as short. As there is no other thought, his mind is well calm. Each breathing calms down him and he is quite peaceful. He knows the whole body of breath that is he knows the start, continuation, end, pauses and long, short, stop, harsh, tender, near stopping etc. He is taking the real object. He is not distracted. The real object is the sense of touch of air to his nostrils. He does not follow the air that goes in, which actually cannot be really followed. If this is done, it is just imagination. What he senses is touch. This real object touch or Photthabba Arammana strikes Kayapasada or sense-base at the nostril. There arises Kayavinnana Citta ( touch-consciousness ) like a spark. When an iron rod is striked against an iron surface, there arise sparks. This point the arising of spark occur at an exact moment. The whole process of this is comparable to arising of Kayavinnana Citta at breathing meditation. 1. Iron rod ..... touch-sense or Photthabba Arammana or object of touch 2. Iron surface.. Kayapassada or Kayaayatana or body sense-base 3. Sparks ..... Kayavinnana Citta 4. Contact of rod and surface ...Phassa or contact 5. Heat ........... Vedana or feeling 6. The act of striking...Cetana or volition 7. Perception of iron...Sanna or perception ( if wood there will not be sparks..but remember iron as iron and striking causes sparks ) 8. The exact point of contact...Ekaggata or one-pointedness 9. Right direction...Manasikara or attention ( if rod went to wrong direction it would not strike iron surface and there would not arise sparks ) 10. Occurrence ... Jivitindriya or mental life ( occurrence of the whole event ) Number 1.is for Rupa which is external ( sensation of touch cold/warm, harsh/tender, rush/gentle ) Number 2. is for Rupa which is internal. ( nostrils, upper lip ) Number 3. is for Citta which knows the sensation of touch. Number 4. to 10 are 7 Cetasikas that arise along with Kayavinnana Citta. They are in serial as stated in number 4. Phassa 5. Vedana 6. Cetana 7. Sanna 8. Ekaggata 9. Manasikara 10. Jivitindriya The iron rod is striked against the iron surface. Cetana acts this. So Cetana is chief offender and he is guilty of his act and this past act become Kamma as a potential to give rise to dhamma according to the act and exist as long as Satta concerned is in the Samsara. Instantaneously, the surface and rod touch. That is contact. It is Phassa. Phassa's function is to meet two parties together. As sparks arise heat arises. This is feeling. It is Vedana. Vedana's function is to feel. At the time of contact, sparks have to arise as both are iron. If surface is wood, iron will not be recognized and so does in case of rod and sparks will not arise. This perception as iron causing sparks is Sanna or perception. The sparks arise at the place of contact. They arise at the exact point. That point is Ekaggata or one-pointedness. The rod is directed to the surface otherwise there will not arise sparks. This steering function is done by Manasikara Cetasikas. The whole occurrence happens and exists. This is Jivitindriya Cetasikas. It is mental life. So 4 to 10 are 7 Cetasikas that always arise with each Citta. They arise at the time of arising of Citta, arise at the same object ( rod, Arammana ), home on the same base as Citta does ( iron surface, Kayapasada ), and they all disappear at the time of passing away of Citta. These are realities. If this practice can be continued steadfastly Panna will arise sooner or later. There is no person in the whole process. There is no permanent thing in this process. It is Anicca. There is nothing to be assumed as good and all are Dukkha. No one can control the whole process. It is Anatta. In actual sense, this working knowledge is sufficient for the practice. Awareness to the whole body of breathing as stated above is a good Sati. It is Samma-Sati, one of 8 Magganga or Noble Eightfold Path. Moment after moment putting on the process of breathing is effort-making. If it goes steadfastly, it will becomes Samma-Vayama. If the whole mind is on the process of breathing and at the exact point of a place in a body ( nostril ), then the mind is well concentrated and becomes Samma-Samadhi. Putting of the mind on the process of breathing itself is the work of mind done by Vitakka and this mind power becomes Samma-Sankappa. If these realities, ultimate realities are understood as just Anicca, Dukkha, Anatta and the problems arise from these dhamma due to attachment which again is not knowing of their ultimate sense, if this is put down and released all will cease and the way of ceassation is all these 8 Maggana called Samma-Vaca, Samma-Kammanta, Samma-Ajiva, Samma-Sati, Samma-Vayama, Samma-Samadhi, Samma-Sankappa, and Samma-Ditthi. This realization as Dukkha, cause of Dukkha, cessation of Dukkha, and the way to cessation is called Samma-Ditthi. However, actual practice will not be so easy to this degree. So other aspects of Mahasatipatthana Sutta have to be continued. May you all practise Mahasatipatthana to get through the Samsara With Unlimited Metta, Htoo Naing Moderator JourneyToNibbana Yahoo Group 27862 From: buddhatrue Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 0:02pm Subject: Re: hello! Hi Star Kid Anne-Catherine! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Hi James! > > How are you? Thank you for your reply, I really > apreciated your letter. > Now I know why you understand Phillip and other kids > as well. :) > > There are more questions which I like to ask you: > 1. What do you mean by 'Nowadays, Buddhist countries > aren't really all that Buddhist anyway'? James: Hmm...I had a feeling you were going to ask what I meant by this. I am not sure if I can explain well without offending some people who might read this, but I will try. I am reminded of a line from the movie "Seven Years in Tibet". One of the Tibetan people tells a famous mountain climber from Austria, after he shows her some pictures of him winning various awards, "This is another great difference between our civilization and yours. You admire the man who pushes his way to the top in any walk of life while we admire the man who abandons his ego." This, to me, is a good definition for a truly Buddhist country. A country that is truly Buddhist needs to not only have the majority of the people claim to be `Buddhist', they also need to adhere to the principals of Buddhism. Tibet, unfortunately, was savagely invaded by China and had its strong Buddhist identity badly trampled, though not completely lost. I have been to Thailand twice and it is predominately Buddhist in name only. In Thailand, corruption, vice, and materialism are as rampant as in non-Buddhist countries. I am in correspondence with a monk who lives in Sri Lanka, another Buddhist country, and he informs me that it isn't much different there. Nowadays you can find pockets of people who truly adhere to Buddhist philosophy but not an entire country. For this reason, I know that I don't have to live in a Buddhist country to be Buddhist. I have to try to maintain the philosophy of Buddhism wherever I happen to live. This isn't always easy so it is nice to belong to Buddhist groups on the Internet where I can communicate with others who feel as passionately about Buddhism as I do. I don't always agree with their views about Buddhism, but it is at least nice that they care enough to argue! ;-) And I get to write letters to you nice Star Kids about Buddhism! That is enough for me. > 2. Do you know why Buddhism isn't a part of the > culture in the Middle East, Europe and North/South > America. Why did the monks travel to China, Tibet? > (East) James: I believe that the spread of Buddhism predominately had to do with geography. Over 2,500 years ago, when the Buddha was alive, they didn't have airplanes, trains, cars, and other ways to get around quickly. Since great land masses are separated by vast oceans, Buddhism didn't have the chance to reach every part of the world. Traveling Buddhist monks were initially the ones to spread the teachings of the Buddha and they could only travel so far by boat and horseback. Also, the indigenous peoples of Asia could easily adapt Buddhism to the religious beliefs they already had; these early religions included beliefs in spirits, gods, and ancestor worship. They could accommodate new beliefs into these old belief systems, or simply replace them if wanted. However, in those countries with a strong Judeo/Christian belief system, new beliefs are less tolerated. "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" is a strong tenet of the Judeo/Christian belief and therefore discourages other religious ideas. These two factors meant that Buddhism didn't spread to all areas of the world. > > Please reply, thank you for taking your time and I > will study hard in school :) James: You are very welcome. I am glad that you are working hard in school! :-) It will be very important to the rest of your life. > > Anne-Catherine :) Metta, James 27863 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:18am Subject: anapanasati 6 b anapanasati 6 b As regards the clause: ³(XIV) I shall breathe in... breathe out contemplating fading away², the Visuddhimagga states that there are two kinds of fading away, namely: ³fading away as destruction² which is the ³momentary dissolution of formations² (conditioned realities) and ³absolute fading away² which is nibbåna. The text (Visuddhimagga VIII, 235) states: Œ... Contemplation of fading away is insight and it is the path, which occur as the seeing of these two. It is when he possesses this twofold contemplation that it can be understood of him ³He trains thus, I shall breathe in... shall breathe out contemplating fading away.² ¹ The same method of explanation is applied to the clause ³contemplating cessation² (XV). And with regard to the clause (XVI) ³contemplating relinquishment², the Visuddhimagga states: ³relinquishment is of two kinds too, that is to say, relinquishment as giving up, and relinquishment as entering into.² ³Giving up² is the giving up of defilements, and ³entering into² is the entering into nibbåna, the Visuddhimagga explains. We read: Nina 27864 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Nina, I don’t think it is a matter of translation but just a reflection of how an unenlightened mind works. There is a natural ingrained tendency to see things either as truly existing by reason of some intrinsic essence or the exact opposite as non existing at all. It is quite clear that labeling the dhammas as sabhava has put them into a category of true existence. The messages in this list clearly show that this is the way dhammas are regarded. Dhammas are quoted as paramatha – ultimate reality, they truly exist. There is an important difference between bhava and sabhava. Bhava means existence as conditioned, impermanent and no-self, or in other words no true existence since it lacks an essence. Existence in the suttas is always conditioned and something conditioned by definition has no essence (if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not depend on another). Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of the dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not negating that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities and their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore have no inherent existence. As I may have said before, the Abhidhamma is an excellent tool to understand human psychology but falls short as a correct reflection of the philosophical ideas expounded by the Buddha. Metta Michael >From: nina van gorkom >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:18:26 +0100 > >Dear Michael, >I am just wondering whether you see too much behind this term sabhava. Can >it be a matter of translation? It just means: each dhamma has its own >characteristic, and speaking of conditioned dhamma, it falls away >immediately. No question of essentialism. Seeing has its own >characteristic, >quite different from thinking or from hearing. We begin to learn about >these >different characteristics (visesa lakkha.na) when they appear, and there is >no need to think about them. This is the beginning of insight, leading >eventually to more understanding of the three general characteristics, >sama~n~na lakkha.na, of impermanence, dukkha and anatta. >I know I have said something similar before, but perhaps I did not express >myself clearly. >Nina. >op 09-12-2003 20:30 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > > > An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing >an > > essence, is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated > > from other things. > > > > If an essence would come from causes and conditions, then it would be > > fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on > > another. > > > > If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A >change > > in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary >property, > > and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. >This is > > eternalism, a view rejected by the Buddha. > > > > 27865 From: Egberdina Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:16pm Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Christine, Try a little experiment (no drugs involved :-)). Take an object, any object. Let any thoughts about the object go. Then become angry about the object. Were you able to feel angry at will? Let the anger go. Now feel happy about the object. Were you able to feel happy at will? Try applying different mindstates. Does it work? Clearly, feelings are not linked to objects. Feelings are linked to intention. If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling you that you can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :- ) Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27866 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 5:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of the > dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an > independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not negating > that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those > characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities and > their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore > have no inherent > existence. ======================= What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does hardness have other than hardness? In any case, as I see it, the problem with saying that 'sabhava' means "own nature" or "own characteristic" lies in saying "own", not in saying "nature" or "characteristic". The condition/characteristic of hardness is a dependent arising, and thus is not self-existent. But it is still true that hardness occurs and can be distinguished from warmth, and that seems to indicate distinguishing characteristics. With metta, Howard 27867 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 4:52pm Subject: Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 49. 2. The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs. It is assisted by the elements in the way aforesaid. It is consolidated by temperature, consciousness, and nutriment; it is maintained by life; it is equipped with colour, etc.; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for ear-consciousness, and the rest. 50. 3. The nose [sensitivity] is to be found inside [the feature of the] nose-hole with its accessories in the place shaped like a goat's hoof. It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for nose-consciousness, and the rest. 51. 4. The tongue [sensitivity] is to be found in the middle of the [feature of the] tongue with its accessories in the place shaped like a lotus petal tip. It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for tongue-consciousness, and the rest. 52. 5. The body [sensitivity] is to be found everywhere, like a liquid that soaks a layer of cotton, in this physical body where there is matter that is clung to.23 It has assistance, consolidation and maintenance in the way aforesaid too; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door for body-consciousness, and the rest. 53. Like snakes, crocodiles, birds, dogs, and jackals that gravitate to their own respective resorts, that is to say, ant-hills, water, space, villages, and charnal grounds, so the eye, etc., should be regarded as gravitating to their own respective resorts, that is to say, visible data, and so on (cf. DhsA. 314). --------------------- Note 23. Upaadi.n.na (also upaadi.n.naka) is pp. of upaadiyati (he clings), from which the noun upaadaana (clinging) also comes. Upaadi.n.na-(ka-) ruupa (clung-to matter) = kammaja-ruupa (kamma-born matter); see Dhs. par.653. It is vaguely renderable by 'organic or sentient or living matter'; technically, it is matter of the four primaries that is 'clung-to' (upaadi.n.na) or 'derived' (upaadaaya) by kamma. Generally taken as a purely Abhidhamma term (Dhs., p.1), it nevertheless occurs in the Suttas at M.i,185 in the same sense. 27868 From: Michael Beisert Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Howard, See below ... >From: upasaka@a... >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics >Date: Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:00:16 -0500 > >Hi, Michael - > >In a message dated 12/10/2003 2:53:27 PM Eastern Standard Time, >mbeisert@h... writes: > > > Characteristic does not help much either because as I understand each of >the > > dhammas is considered to have a distinguishing characteristic, an > > independently existent property, and hence, an essence. I am not >negating > > that things don’t have characteristics but I am arguing against those > > characteristics being intrinsic, that they exist inherently. Entities >and > > their characteristics are mutually dependent and therefore > > have no inherent > > existence. >======================= > What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their >characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything >other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does >hardness have other than hardness? MB: Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > In any case, as I see it, the problem with saying that 'sabhava' means >"own nature" or "own characteristic" lies in saying "own", not in saying >"nature" or "characteristic". The condition/characteristic of hardness is a >dependent arising, and thus is not self-existent. But it is still true that >hardness occurs and can be distinguished from warmth, and that seems to >indicate distinguishing characteristics. MB: Yes, I agree with what you are saying. Metta Michael > >With metta, >Howard > > > 27869 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 7:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Dear Nina, ------------ > N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations afterwards with Brian? -------------- There wasn't much conversation immediately afterwards because Brian was late for a social appointment. But, even as he walked to his car, he kept repeating, "That's bloody marvellous! I really like that -- just phenomena, no stories -- thanks for explaining it that way." When he came back next morning, the enthusiasm was still there but I don't know if I, or any of the others, was able to add anything particularly helpful. He had an interesting misconception of 'nama and rupa' which didn't mean much to me until, coincidentally, I read this post of yours. He seemed to think that 'nama' was the laws of nature and 'rupa' was the phenomena to which the laws applied: -------------- N: > Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: Fixedness of Law regarding all things. There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: 1. temperature, season. 2. plant life. 3. kamma. 4. functions of citta in the processes. 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. ----------------- It's a pity I wasn't aware of that, it would have struck a cord with Brian, I think. Oh well, there's always next time :-) Meanwhile, thank you for explaining it to me. I have read it before but without it's having much impact. Now, to use your words, it is really striking. It gives me added appreciation of what you remind of us here: "The Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. Thanks Nina, 'bloody marvellous!' :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27870 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53 "The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs." Hi all, In case you were wondering, a finger stall is a sheath for the finger, like a thimble: http://monk.monk.ca/cgi-bin/webimage.cgi?58-900&R0.49 Larry 27871 From: gazita2002 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness dear KenH, Nina and Christine, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Ken H, > op 09-12-2003 20:29 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > > > Remember Brian at Cooran: He had never been in the least > > bit interested in nama and rupa; While we were talking > > about rebirth and the difficulties in accepting the > > theory of it, suddenly, the penny dropped. He saw the > > world purely in terms of impersonal nama and rupa (cuti- > > citta and all that), and it was all totally sensible and > > acceptable. He was genuinely excited about it: genuinely > > grateful to us for explaining it that way. So, whenever > > we have problems dealing with stories, we should be like > > Brian. > > N: This is really striking. Actually, that is what A. Sujin means, saying: > what about the present moment. It may irritate some people, and help others, > depending on their accumulations. Can you tell us more about conversations > afterwards with Brian? > But I also understand Christine: nama and rupa now, that is not what she is > waiting to hear. She has terrible experiences first hand. But still, what > you said, (cuti-> citta and all that)>, is the key to the remedy. This is why the > Buddha said that the cycle is dukkha. The Buddha himself could not stop > kamma from producing vipaka. I have been following this thread, be it briefly, and thought that the Buddha taught the way out of Samsara because of these painful things that happen to beings. He had so much compassion and knowledge I imagine it wasn't an easy load to carry, esp. when he 'choose' to hang around [so to speak] and teach the Dhamma to us fools, some of us didn't want to listen, wanted to go on and on, to continue to feel, hear, see, suffer. Christine, I know your strong accumulations for justice, fairness and equality - remember our discussion in the back of Betty's brother-in-law's vehicle while we drove round Chiangmai? I sensed then that you probably suffer along with those you care for - btw, did you read that small article on the Dog that I sent you? I'm not saying that these people actually 'want' to suffer, no one does, but I believe for the sake of liberation, one can only save oneself, by developing the right understanding of this present moment, to know this moment is only nama and rupa and very transitory. Once there is the realization that it can't be any other way, then there is a degree of freedom. I remember when my brother and I were young kids, he asked me to stand with my back to the forbidden-to-touch clock on the mantlepiece, and asked me if I couldn't see it how did I know it existed. I don't know what his motive was, but it was a condition for me to start wondering about this phenomenon, and my point here is, that much of our days are spent in stories, even horrible stories about atrocious things. In reality, it is sound, visible object, thinking, feeling etc all real and can be known for what they really are, impermanent, not self and unsatisfactory. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 27872 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Dear Alan, It was simple for me. My husband had to work in Thailand and so we lived there for almost five years. I learnt Thai and Buddhism. How? I asked and asked and asked questions to my friend in the Dhamma Acharn Sujin. It all begins with questioning. What you do is right. Then you will slowly come to read more and when it interests you you will reflect more. It all works because of conditions. Later on you feel that you need to learn more and more details. But nothing has to be forced. You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever thought of before, but this is a gain. Good luck with your study, Nina. op 10-12-2003 11:11 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: >> Also, >> interested in how other members came to buddhism .. you can mail me >> off line with longer replies to this question if you wish ?! > .... > I hope they all mail you on line so we can all share. 27873 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: >> You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever thought > of before, but this is a gain. > Good luck with your study, > ======== Dear Nina, three of my students who have been translating your book (for over 2 years)come to see me on mondays to discuss the work. They keep having to rewrite sections because their understanding is maturing . One of them said this week that she has been so surprsed to find out that she has so much ignorance and desire because she had always thought of herself as good. I said this is all we are because smasara is the Paticcasamuppada, is the khandhas which include and are perpetuated by ignorance and desire. robert 27874 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 2:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi, Herman (and Christine) - In a message dated 12/10/03 8:41:50 PM Eastern Standard Time, hhofman@t... writes: > If you find that you can intend, while a book is telling > you that you can't, perhaps you should intend to put the book down :-) > ======================== I LOVE it, Herman!! ;-)) With intentional metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27875 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 3:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael - In a message dated 12/10/03 11:21:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, mbeisert@h... writes: > > What entities are there, Michael, to exist interdependently with their > >characteristics? I don't believe in entities. Are the dhammas anything > >other than their so-called characteristics? What characteristic does > >hardness have other than hardness? > > MB: Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to > > be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > ====================== Mmm, maybe so. As far as I'm concerned, I have no clue as to what the "earth element" is supposed to be - I've never experienced it, but (degrees of) hardness, softness, smoothness, roughness, warmth, cold, etc are actual experiences for me, they are all "rupas", they come and go, arising from conditions, and that's pretty much all I know about touch-objects. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27876 From: rjkjp1 Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:26pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > Well , as I understand, the Abhidhamma commentaries consider hardness to > be an intrinsic characteristic of earth element. > >========= Dear Michael, I might have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the commentaries thought earth element was diferent from hardness. Like it was some THING separate from the characteristic? That would be a real misinterpretation. You see the hardness is the earth element The majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) has the following to say. I use bhikkhu bodhi's translation p39. It comments on the atthakatha which says "they bear their own characteristics, thus they are dhammas." The tika(subcommentary ) notes. "although there are no dhammas devoid of their own characteristics this is said for the purpose of showing that mere dhammas endowed with their specific natures devoid of such attributes as being etc... whereas such entities as self, permanence or nature, soul, body etc are mere misconstructions due to craving and views...and cannot be discovered as ultinately real actualities, these dhammas (ie.those endowed with a specific sabhava) can. these dhammas are discovered as actually real actualties. And although there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics, still, in order to facilitate understanding, the exposition makes a distinction as a mere metaphorical device. Also they are borne, or they are discerned, known , acccording to their specific nature, thus they are dhammas" It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the change of dhammas. RobertK 27877 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Michael, You wrote to Nina: --------------- > (if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not depend on another). ---------------- Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in the world but it won't make dosa kusala. This is why the teaching of absolute reality is irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. In conventional reality, everything is ambiguous; nothing can be known unequivocally; there is always a rational argument for and against. Only in absolute reality is there absoluteness. So, in that sense, essence does mean 'not dependent.' HOWEVER, that's as far as it goes. Essence does not mean 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. It seems that all this fuss has been over two meanings of the word 'dependent.' I am glad to have cleared it up. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 27878 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 10:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] my intro and thoughts ... Dear Nina, Alan, Christine & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: >Later on you feel that you need to learn more and > more details. But nothing has to be forced. > You also will discover that you have more defilements than you ever > thought > of before, but this is a gain. ..... Yes, this is just how I see it. A great gain. Whether we read messages about the Dhamma, listen to good friends or read the texts, we’re reminded more and more of the extent of our subtle and course wrong views and all other defilements arising countless times in a day. Of course, sometimes it’s difficult to hear and appreciate reminders (due to yet more defilements such as ignorance, views, aversion, attachment and conceit), but it is the wise reflection and attention to all these details and those about the other actualities or truths that makes the path become more apparent. Gradually there’s no conflict at all when we hear there’s no self to do or control or have defilements and yet there is a way, a development, which leads to the eradication of defilements and the end of suffering. It sounds like a conundrum or riddle, but it’s not. When I hear or read helpful reminders about the truth and am able to listen (which is not always by any means), it’s a condition to really pay respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha for making these truths available to me. Metta, Sarah p.s Alan, thank you for sharing more of your simple and healthy philosophy. We have plenty of radiant lights here - you’re in good company;-) ======= 27879 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hi Ken O (& Christine), Sorry for the delay, Ken O, --- Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Sarah > > Just a simple question, every now and then, there is this word about > wise attention. What is it? Does it equate to panna or sati or > both? Vice versa what is unwise attention. .... I understand wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) to arise in the javana process WITH panna and sati. As you know, manasikaara is a universal cetasika with its own characteristic, so when it arises with wholesome cittas, it’s yoniso and vice versa with ayoniso (unwise). Usually when we read about it in the texts, it’s referring to wise attention arising with satipatthana. For example, in MN2,Sabbaasava Sutta, we read (~Naa.namoli/Bodhi transl): In the note given by the translators it says: “Wise attention(yoniso manasikaara) is glossed as attention that is the right means (upaaya), on the right track (patha). It is explained as mental advertence, consideration, orpreoccupation that accords with the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as impermanent, etc. Unwise attention (ayoniso manasikaara) is attention that is the wrong means, on the wrong track (uppatha), contrary to the truth, namely, attention to the impermanent as permanent, the painful as pleasurable, what is not self as self, and what is fould as beautiful. Unwise attention, MA [comy] informs us, is at the root of the round of existence, for it causes ignorance and craving to increase; wise attention is at the root of liberation from the round, since it leads to the development of the Noble Eightfold Path. MA sums up the point of this passage thus: the destruction of the taints is for one who knows how to arouse wise attention and who sees to it that unwise attention does not arise.” Here I take wise attention to be referring to yoniso manasikaara, accompanied by panna, sati etc. I know you will read the last sentence as referring to wholesome cittas and not to any self that has to do anything, Ken O;-) Sometimes, it’s just used for any wise reflection. E.g, Vism 1, 85: “’Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe pnly for protection from the cold....”- Other times it’s specifically being used for developed panna.E.g, Vism 1V,53: “Herein, wise attention given to the profitable, etc, is attention occurring in penetration of individual essences and of [the three] general characteristics.” Here it’s used (as is common) to refer to attention with wise reflection or theoretical understanding as necessary conditions. E.g,Vism X1: “...for wise attention, hearing the Good Dhamma, etc, are a condition only for the profitable, while the opposite kinds are a condition forthe unprofitable.” Your questions are always good and never simple for me;-) I always look forward to reading all your contributions. Metta, Sarah p.s Chris, in another post on this thread (27750) you asked about developing panna and so on. This can and is done, but not by 'me'. Nothing is 'random or accidental'. You also wrote "If 'I' can't choose, how come 'I' get to pay the kammic bill? Good qu and the truth is 'you' don't. It seems conventionally that you can 'choose to read Dhamma', 'focus attention' and experience good and bad results, but in truth there really are only cittas, cetasikas and rupas at work;-) ============================================== 27880 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Jeff, Thanks for replying, I never mind how long it takes. I appreciate it. --- "Jeffrey S. Brooks" wrote: > Hello Sarah, and thank-you for your interest. Many apologies for > taking so long to get back with you. I have been busy responding to > over a hundred and 50 emails a day since I posted the original message > that you have so kindly responded to. Fortunately that flow of email > has slowed down enough for me to get back on line to check on the > responses to my post. .... You certainly sound very busy. Just two or three a day keep me busy enough;-). .... > Since you mentioned that my bio is about the past, and you inquired > into my present, then I can say that in my present I am more happy and > fulfilled than I can ever recall being, but since I practice > moment-to-moment mindfulness, then I am aware that most of my days and > night I feel more happy and content than I can ever recall being. .... I’m glad to hear you’re feeling so happy and content. What do you mean by practicing ‘moment-to-moment mindfulness’? (pls don’t consider any questioning and clarifying as unfriendly in any way, Jeff.) .... > I am also aware that many of the experiences that I mentioned in the > post that responded to are also part of my present as well as my > moment-to-moment experience for a number of years, such as awareness > of an aura and the upper 4 chakras. .... OK, thanks. I think there are different kinds of ‘awareness’,as the term is used, and they are not necessarily all wholesome. Awareness of auras and chakras can be very, very useful,especially for healing etc, but it doesn’t have anything to do with awareness as in satipatthana as I understand. It’s not necessary to have ever heard the Buddha’s teachings for this, whereas those who have developed satipatthana may have no awareness of auras. .... >And, during this morning's > meditation I had pleasant arisings to the 4th jhana, which is typical > for me, as well as the rising of "energy." ..... I’m also doubtful that we use terms like ‘4th jhana’ in the same way at all. ..... > As for the "I" when I refer to myself, this is a language that is > based on self references I use it in much the same way you use the > term. I speak of this one, who is typing this message to you, that > one who will be reading it. But, I know that this is not me, I am not > this, and this is not mine. ..... I’m glad to hear it. As we discuss quite often here, ideas of self can creep in often whenever there is an idea of doing something in particular in order to have more awareness with an idea that 'we' can do it, for example. I also read your other post ‘jhana is ecstasy’ with interest, Jeff. I appreciated your definitions and references. I don’t believe I’ve seen a single post on DSG in which ‘jhana’ is ‘regarded as a dirty word’, but perhaps you meant elsewhere. You’re welcome to try and find one here;-). You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. You refer in your quotes to ‘pleasure (bliss)’. This would refer to sukha and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they’re unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such as music or nature or a special experience. So,to get to the point, I don’t think you differentiate in your various definitions between wholesome bliss - sukha and piti and the unwholesome kinds. How do you know that the bliss you are describing is wholesome? Similarly with absorption, trance and so on? At this moment is there any knowledge or awareness of whether the pleasant feeling or joy is wholesome or unwholesome? I’ll appreciate any further clarifications. With metta, Sarah. ====== 27881 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:40am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Robert K, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence etc. > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > change of dhammas. > RobertK Hi Robert K, I agree with Michael on this point (I'm sure that's a shocker! ;-)) It is not possible to say that a dhamma is impermanent and non-self and then to say that it has its own characteristics. These are completely contradictory concepts. This is complicated to explain with dhammas like hardness, softness, color, etc, allow me to use a metaphor: when four lines come together at perpendicular angles they form a square. This square appears to have its own characteristics which others can agree on. In essence, this is a `Rupa Square'. However, the square is really nothing but the coming together of the lines in a certain way. It doesn't have its own essence or characteristics because its appearance is dependant on the lines that form it. In summary, it isn't an ultimate reality. The lines are also not an ultimate reality either because they are dependant on other factors to exist (what space on the paper, a straight edge, etc.). Therefore, characteristics of dhammas are only provisional, not ultimate. In order for those characteristics to be ultimate, they cannot be impermanent and non-self. Metta, James 27882 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 8:20pm Subject: Not shared Knowledge ... Friends: The Buddhas have 6 kinds of knowledge not shared by Disciples: 1: Direct knowledge of penetration of other being's Abilities. 2: Direct knowledge of other being's latent Tendencies & biases. 3: Direct knowledge of how to perform the Twin Miracle. 4: Direct knowledge of how to achieve Great Compassion. 5: Direct knowledge of Omniscient Knowledge. 6: Direct knowledge of Unobstructed Knowledge. Source: The Path of Discrimination by Sariputta. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=133494 All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ To join: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27883 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 9:33pm Subject: The 4 Confidences Friends: The 4 Confidences of a Buddha: The confidence inherent in complete & perfect self-enlightenment, is the 1st certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in total elimination of all mental fermentation, is the 2nd certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in knowing & seeing all obstructions as obstruction, is the 3rd certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. The confidence inherent in teaching a Dhamma which unambiguously always lead to the complete & irreversible destruction & ceasing of all suffering, is the 4th certainty, assurance, safety & fearlessness a Buddha enjoy. --oo0oo-- Source: The great presentation of the Lions Roar. The middle length sayings of the Buddha. Majjhima Nikaya: Maha-sihanada Sutta MN 12 http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=25072X All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ To join: Buddha-Direct-subscribe@yahoogroups.com 27884 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Doomed March Fly - Thomas Hi Thomas, As I wrote another post I remembered your comments on this popular thread and I don't think anyone replied. --- nordwest wrote: > Maybe the fly will reach a higher realm, because now so many buddhists > reflect upon her... .... It's nice to think our reflections might help, but it may be wishful thinking;-) .... >or maybe she had reached perfect enlightenment when > been eaten alive by the ants, like the monk who was eaten by the tiger > in the jungle.... .... Yes, but I think there are a few differences;-) I don't believe it's possible for an ant or animal to become enlightened. The monk developed the necessary wisdom which it's not possible for an animal to do. .... >the ways of karma are unconceiveable. I would rather > hope, she profited from it. ..... I think she'd have to profit from her own good kamma, but as you imply, the killing may have been a helpful decisive factor in this regard. Who knows? Metta, Sarah ====== 27885 From: Sarah Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The Doomed March Fly Hi Michael, Ken H, Howard & All, --- Michael Beisert wrote: > Sarah: <...> > As Rob M listed in another post,in order for it to be an act of killing > there have to be five factors including ‘consquential death’. > > Michael: > OK, I missed that. So, the 'consequential death' is important, then > maybe > one could infere that the consequential death of many would produce a > more > potent kamma that only one death. Would this interpretation be > acceptable? ..... Yes,as I understand the teachings,but only if intended. Ken H and Howard were also discussing the timing of death responsibility from the act of killing. I hope you all enjoy this quote from the Paramatthajotikaa (The Illustrator of Ultimate Meaning),comy to the Khuddakapaa.tha),PTS,trans by ~Naanamoli. 11, the Training Precepts, 21 >” ’By means’: in the case of killing-breathing-things there are six kinds of means: with one’s own hand, by command, by missile, by fixed contrivance, by [magical] science, and by supernormal power. Herein,a blow given by the body or by what is connected to the body is ‘with one’s own hand’ as means. That is of two kinds as directed [to an individual] and not so directed. Herein, in the case directed [to an individual], one becomes responsible for the action of killing [kamma-bandha -responsibility for action] only through the death of the one to whom the blow was directed. In the case of that not so directed [and given] thus ‘Let anyone at all die’ [one becomes responsible] through anyone’s death that is conditioned by that blow. And in both cases, ***whether [the breathing thing] dies with the very blow or afterwards of a sickness due to it, one becomes responsible for the action as from the moment of the blow,*** and when after giving the blow with the intention to kill, the breathing thing is not killed and then again a blow accompanied by another congnizance is given by him to that breathing thing not yet dead, and later on if it dies of the first blow, it is from then that he becomes responsible for the action, in which case there is no killing-of-breathing-things by the second blow; but if it dies through both, then he is responsible for the action as from the first blow. ***If it does not die through either, then there is no killing-of-breathing-things***. This method applies also when a blow is given by many to one; for then the responsibility for the action lies with him by whose blow the breathing thing died. A command [given] after making a decision is a ‘command’ as means. Herein, too, responsibility for the action should be followed out by the same method as that stated under ‘with one’s own hand’ as means.”< ***** S: I think this is all quite clear. In the case of plane and the bomb mission, anyone who commanded or pressed any buttons with the intention that one or many should be killed would be ‘responsible’ for the deaths of the one or many from the action. If there was no intention to kill or those other than intended are killed, in terms of kamma-patha, there is no ‘responsibility’ for killing on the part of the commander or the one who pressed the buttons, just as when we step on insects and kill them accidentally (or the accidental death of a March fly;-)). It may be irresponsible behaviour etc etc, but that’s another issue. To quote a little more from the same section: ***** >”If the object is mistaken and someone is killed other than the one whom it was commanded to kill, ***then the giver of the command has no responsibility for the action.*** But if the object is not mistaken and death is caused,then responsibility for the action lies with both the one giving the command and the one commanded: with the former from the moment of his giving the command, and with the latter from the moment of the death. Likewise in the case of ‘time’,and the rest.”< ***** S: Michael, you may also be interested to read another paragraph on ‘blamability’in the same section from a letter I wrote some time ago: ***** S: >In the Khuddakapatha (The Minor Readings), under ‘The Ten Training Precepts’, a lot of detail is given about the various permutations and kinds of killing with regard to: >“The object, time, locality, The weapon, posture, and the kind Of act; these are the six that we Shall need to make ‘command’ defined.”< >“ ‘By blamability’: in the case of breathing things beginning with animals that are devoid of special qualities, killing of breathing things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of a small one and more blamable in the case of one with a large phsyical frame. Why? Because of the greater magnitude of the means (needed); and when the means are equal, (it depends) on the greater magnitude of the object, (namely, the breathing thing.) But in the case of human beings etc, endowed with special qualities, killing-breathing-things is (relatively) less blamable in the case of one with small special qualities; and when there is equality of special qualities and of the physical frame, then the lesser blamableness should be understood to reside in the (relative) mildness of the defilements and of the active process adopted, and the greater blamableness in their greater violence. .....”< ***** We had a long discussion about the murder of Maha-Mogallana and I think the obvious horrors of this particular murder (and the consequences) were very apparent. Obviously,from these quotes, it is obvious that the intended and consequential death of many is far more blamable than of one. I hope these quotes answer the lingering questions. I always appreciate all RobM’s examples and confidence in wholesome deeds and reflection. As he reminded us (post 27668), we should look for opportunities for wholesome deeds which will be a condition for more of the same in future. Metta, Sarah ===== 27886 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Ken/H, --- kenhowardau wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > There's not much of my theorising you haven't thoroughly > squashed. .... Squashed fly sympathies? And the parts I agreed with, Michael squashed. This is life on DSG;-) ... >I feared as much. But thank you, it had to be > done. > > It's time for my fortnightly trip to Brisbane. I will > reply properly in a day or two. .... I hope you had a good trip into the big city. (Did you buy a hat??). Btw, pls don't assume that all or any of my guesses outside the commentary notes are necessarily any righter. I'm sure you're not serious, but in any case, I certainly had no intention to do any squashing and hope my 'no' did not sound impolite;-( Metta, Sarah ======= 27887 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:37am Subject: Re: characteristics Dear James, Thanks for joining the discussion. I'll wait for Michael's reply so I can consider your points at the sme time and then write back. robk In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert K, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > It should be noted that when it says they are real, essence > etc. > > this doesn't imply existence in the usual sense of an > > independent lasting thing. All dhammas are conditioned in > > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening so > > fast that time itself can only be understood by reference to the > > change of dhammas. > > RobertK > > Hi Robert K, > > I agree with Michael on this point (I'm sure that's a shocker! ;- )) > It is not possible to say that a dhamma is impermanent and non- self > and then to say that it has its own characteristics. These are > completely contradictory concepts. This is complicated to explain > with dhammas like hardness, softness, color, etc, allow me to use a 27888 From: Date: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:39pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Ken (and Michael) - In a message dated 12/11/03 3:07:54 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Michael, > > You wrote to Nina: > --------------- > >(if an essence comes from causes and conditions then it > is fabricated, and it cannot be since essence does not > depend on another). > ---------------- > > Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence > does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I > agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently > akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's > point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in > the world but it won't make dosa kusala. > > This is why the teaching of absolute reality is > irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. In > conventional reality, everything is ambiguous; nothing > can be known unequivocally; there is always a rational > argument for and against. Only in absolute reality is > there absoluteness. > > So, in that sense, essence does mean 'not dependent.' > > HOWEVER, that's as far as it goes. Essence does not mean > 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent > origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in > dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. > > It seems that all this fuss has been over two meanings of > the word 'dependent.' I am glad to have cleared it up. > :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > ============================ There is the following dictionary entry: __________________________________ Main Entry: es·sence Pronunciation: 'e-s&n(t)s Function: noun Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French & Latin; Middle French, from Latin essentia, from esse to be —more at IS Date: 14th century 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is 2 : something that exists : ENTITY -------------------------------------------------- Permit me to do a brief analysis: Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism accepts no essence// Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are one and the same, making this notion rather empty. Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? That needn't be raised to the level of a grand metaphysical principle. (ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is not particularly important for the Dhamma.// Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) Now, getting to what you said, Ken, about dosa being inherently akusala: I don't know what you mean by "inherently" here. Anger always produces kammic traces that are harmful by standard evaluation. That is a relational fact. What does this have to do with essence? The distinguishing characteristic of anger is anger. That's the whole story. Lots of states have only harmful consequences, and that does not help to distinguish them. (Paramattha dhammas are experiential actualities that are directly distinguishable anyway.) Anger is not an entity - it has no essence other than being anger. Anger always arises from causes and conditions, in complete dependence on them, and these causes and conditions are equally empty of own-being. The very existence of anger is "borrowed". With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27889 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Mahacattarika was: Hang-ups, khandhas and crocs Hi Sarah, > > I hope you had a good trip into the big city. (Did you buy a hat??). > ---------- Thanks; lunch by the river at Sandgate with Mum and Dad. All the hats were sold out -- March fly season. ----------- Btw, pls don't assume that all or any of my guesses outside the commentary > notes are necessarily any righter. ---------- I've been working on my "proper reply;" it's not ready yet and my eyes have packed it in (too much computer screen). I have been trying to resurect the 4NT theory. The rest you can have. No, come to think of it, I'm not quite beaten on the 'jhana object' either. ----------- > I'm sure you're not serious, but in any > case, I certainly had no intention to do any squashing and hope my 'no' > did not sound impolite;-( ---------- Certainly not. Sorry to have left you in suspense. More tomorrow -- eyes permitting ;-) Kind regards, Ken H 27890 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 0:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Right Livelihood Hi Nina, Howard & All, --- nina van gorkom wrote: <...> > Volition certainly is an important factor, but there are also other > cetasikas performing their functions at the moment of abstaining. As you > know, there are three cetasikas performing the functions of abstention, > virati cetasikas: abstention from wrong speech, wrong action and wrong > livelihood. It is good to know different degrees of them. There are not > only > coarse defilements, also medium defilements (pariyutthana kilesa) and > the > latent tendencies. .... Yes, there are bound to be many moments of wrong speech, action and livelihood in a day for all of us. I find it helpful to reflect that the virati (abstaining) cetasikas of right speech and so on only arise at times when we deliberately refrain from wrong speech and so on. So right speech, action and livelihood can never arise with jhana cittas nor in the kiriya cittas of an arahant, an arahant having no inclination remaining towards wrong speech and so on. Likewise, as I understand, a sotapanna would have no virati with regard to stealing, telling lies, sexual misconduct or stealing, because there is no inclination remaining towrds these in the first place. (Of course all virati present in lokuttara magga cittas helping to perform the function of eradication of the kilesa). B.Bodhi gives more detail on this under ‘the three abstinences’ in CMA,11,Guide to 15. He adds: “Moreover, any abstinence that arises can arise only in part, as determined by the type of transgression one refrains from: if one meets the opportunity to take life, then right action arises as abstinence only from taking life; if one meets the opportunity to steal, then it arises as abstinence only from stealing. However, when the abstinences arise in the supramundance cittas they always occur together (ekato), all three being present simultaneously.” <..> > Also the monks can engage in wrong livelihood, trying to become popular, > meditating in public, hinting when they like to obtain requisites. .... This is always a good reminder for all of us. We should recognize all kinds of wrong action and livelihood, no matter what our lifestyle. <..> > They are the defilements that can only be eradicated at the stages of > enlightenment. They are subtle defilements, but strong. It needs a > refined > understanding to go to the root of defilements. As to the first: sense > desire-clinging, all kinds of objects in this world are included, > praise, > blame, etc. .... I meant to add a note to Victor to effect that sense desire refers to sense sphere clinging, not just objects experienced through the 5 sense doors. .... > But, there is a remedy. The development of > understanding of the presently arisen reality. The only remedy really. > By the study of latent tendencies we learn more about the conditions for > akusala that arises. Then we find "our akusala" less important. This > helps > us also not to dwell so long on it, to be oppressed by it. ..... I look forward to your series on latent tendencies. I agree about the remedy. The more understanding develops,the less idea there will be of ‘my akusala’ and thereby the less dwelling and oppression as you say. In appreciation of all these helpful reminders and also to Howard for your helpful reflections on the momentary aspects and sharing of concerns. Metta, Sarah p.s If anyone would like to read more details and quotes from CMA and other sources on the 3 virati cetasikas of right speech,right action and right livelihood, this earlier post of mind might be helpful: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/m14061.html =============================================================== 27891 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Christine Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy to realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :). Cheers Kind regards Ken O --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? > > According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be > done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? > How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27892 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 1:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Ken, I am Captain Akusala from a former existence. How did you come to the conclusion that the concepts kusala/akusala are not dependent on a point of view? What allows you to know the results of intention, and how to classify those results, without recourse to a conceptual superstructure that is noone's point of view? Peace Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence > does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I > agree with you there. Dosa, for example is inherently > akusala; that characteristic does not depend on someone's > point of view. I can claim all the self-righteousness in > the world but it won't make dosa kusala. 27893 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello RobertK, RobertK: I might have misunderstood but are you suggesting that the commentaries thought earth element was diferent from hardness. Like it was some THING separate from the characteristic? That would be a real misinterpretation. You see the hardness is the earth element. Michael: Yes, it is a misinterpretation of what the commentaries say, but you see my point is that the commentaries in some aspects got it wrong. If you say ‘hardness is the earth element’ you are clearly stating that hardness belongs to earth element, is an intrinsic part of earth element. What I am saying is that if earth element is conditioned then it is impossible for earth element to have any kind of intrinsic part in it. Earth element as well as hardness are both conditioned. I will repeat what I wrote before: An essence (sabhava), or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence (like when you say ‘hardness is the earth element’), is uncaused, independent of other phenomena, and not fabricated from other things. If an essence, or an entity that exists in virtue of possessing an essence, would come from causes and conditions, then it would be fabricated. How could it be fabricated since essence does not depend on another. If existence is through essence then there cannot be nonexistence. A change in essence is not tenable. An essential property is a necessary property, and it is incoherent to say that a thing loses a necessary property. Therefore there change is not possible and this is eternalism. RobertK: All dhammas are conditioned in complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening Michael: Fully agree. But not only dhammas, their characteristics as well. And if dhammas are conditioned, as you say, they cannot be paramatha nor have any kind of sabhava. (See explanation above). Metta Michael 27894 From: robmoult Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:00am Subject: Dilbert + Colombo Shopping Hi All, I like Dilbert and subscribe to its newsletter. The recent newsletter had a bit that I don't understand: "Imagine, if you will, that all DNRC members moved their holiday gift-buying from December to January to take advantage of the sales. Then imagine that the money saved on gifts is invested at 5% compounded interest for 80 years. You'll be dead by then, but your estates would be worth literally hundreds of dollars, maybe more. Anyway, the point is that it's easier to park at the mall in January, and that's something that Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha would all agree is a good thing. Especially Buddha, if you know what I mean." Any ideas of what Scott Adams is trying to say? On an unrelated topic, I have bought a travel-bag full of Dhamma books in Colombo at ridiculously low prices. I picked up the two- volume "Buddhist Logic" by Stcherbatsky for less than US$15 (for both volumes). I also got "The Life and Work of Buddhaghosa" and "Philosophy and its Development in the Nikayas and Abhidhamma" by Fumimaro Watanabe for less than US$4 (hard cover, cloth bound). Other finds that should be interesting reading are "Origin of Species According to the Buddha" and "Theory of Relations in Buddhist Philosophy". I will start chatting again in January, when I get back from Canada. Metta, Rob M :-) 27895 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) Hello Sarah: Sarah: I understand wise attention (yoniso manasikaara) to arise in the javana process WITH panna and sati. As you know, manasikaara is a universal cetasika with its own characteristic, so when it arises with wholesome cittas, it’s yoniso and vice versa with ayoniso (unwise). Usually when we read about it in the texts, it’s referring to wise attention arising with satipatthana. Michael: I understand it differently. I think in the stage of javana it is too late. Kamma is taking place in javana and my impression is that manasikara at this stage is probably not so relevant. I thought manasikara can become yoniso or ayoniso at an earlier stage, either receiving, or investigating, or determining cittas. I have in my mind that there is a sutta (sorry don’t know the reference) which says that there are only two requisites for enlightenment: hearing the true dhamma and wise attention, which ties with what has been said in many messages in the list about attention to the present moment. I also heard once from Bhante G that satipatthana is the training to develop yoniso manasikara. Metta Michael 27896 From: abhidhammika Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:10am Subject: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Dhamma friends How are you? I did not have a chance to take part in the thread regarding recent death of Howard's mother-in-law, and now another thread regarding the death of Jack's father a week or so ago. The following is my response to Stephen's post regarding the death of Jack's father on another list. Hope my post contributes something in the way of coping with death- related grief. Suan -------------------------- Dear Jack, Howard, Stephen, Joyce, Christine and all How are you? Stephen wrote: "It ends with the Uraga Jataka, which I hadn't heard before. An entire family practices meditation of death. The son dies of a snake bite. The father is not perturbed and just goes on about his work; no one grieves or laments. ... I find something wrong in this ideal. Yet..." There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for those on the beginning stages of learning and training. I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the Abhidhamma teaching. When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. And, death is never my worry, but the possibility of being reborn is my profound concern, due to its conditions being unwiseness (avijjaa) and attachment still under the process of eradication. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org 27897 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hello Sarah: Sarah: You mention that ecstasy is used to describe the experience of enlightenment, but of course as you know, jhana is not any enlightenment. You refer in your quotes to ‘pleasure (bliss)’. This would refer to sukha and piti, I believe, sometimes translated as bliss or pleasant feeling (sukha) and joy or rapture (piti). The difficulty is, I think, that we assume these states are wholesome when they arise, but usually they’re unwholesome sukha and piti accompanying attachment. Indeed all kinds of attachment, accompanied by pleasant feeling are also accompanied by piti and these are stronger or more intense than other kinds of attachment. This piti with attachment is also delighted or blissed by the object, such as music or nature or a special experience.. Michael: Sarah, I have a question, I always thought that piti, which is a physical sensation, is a jhana factor, it only arises with jhana. But as I read what you say, piti can also arise in mundane activities? Can you please explain? Tks Metta Michael 27898 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:14am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Suan, This is great. I will try to recloolect this tonight when I get into bed. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > > There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for > those on the beginning stages of learning and training. > > I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every > night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi > cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting > consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the > Abhidhamma teaching. > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > > 27899 From: rjkjp1 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:47am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > > RobertK: > All dhammas are conditioned in > complex ways by other dhammas It is just a flux happening > > Michael: > Fully agree. But not only dhammas, their characteristics as well. And if > dhammas are conditioned, as you say, they cannot be paramatha nor have any > kind of sabhava. (See explanation above). > >_________________ Dear Michael and James, Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their characteristics"" I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. Robert 27900 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, eyefaculty. Hi Larry, op 11-12-2003 05:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The ear [sensitivity] is to be found inside the [feature of the] > ear-hole with its accessories in the place that is shaped like a > finger-stall and surrounded by fine brown hairs." > > In case you were wondering, a finger stall is a sheath for the finger, > like a thimble: N: Pali has a'ngulivedhaka.m, and Co explains: a"nguliiyaka.m which is a finger-ring. There is a Co to 53, and more to say. also to 54. I have a lot to tell about the anthill, the croc, etc. The co. to 58: very long, more than the footnote, and I am not yet through. The eye is a faculty, indriya: it controls seeing which is dependent on it. U Narada (Guide to Conditional Relations) explains the difference in eye sensitivity: condiitoned by age. He explains that even a young man, when he reads too much has his eyesense affected. I have to look after this lousehead, as Herman says. I feel my eyes when I have stared too much on texts, also the Thai letters are a strain. I like to do it so much, but I may have to shorten my translations. I do them late (at least late for me) at night. Nina. 27901 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: clung to (NUM;-)) Dear Sarah, op 10-12-2003 09:51 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: I can’t find Wheel 101. If the note isn’t too long, I’d be interested in > it, otherwise never mind. Also do you have a Dhammasangani ref, otherwise > I’ll look when I have time. N: See what Larry prepared for us on upadi.n.na. This is longer than the note in Wheel most of which I rendered. Now Dhsg: p. 185, § 653: Thus, we have this Pali term in this context, used in this way, that is all. Upaadaanakkhandha is another context, and here upaadaana is used with a wider meaning: all that is clung to and favorable to clinging. On p. 299: The Group on Grasping (upaadaana-gocchaka.m) with foonotes and references to Expositor. I found in Dispeller I, p. 14, that the five khandhas and the five khandhas of grasping amount to the same. I appreciate the reminder that it all relates to this moment. S:> However, K.Sujin stopped me and stressed that upadana khandha applies just > to what is experienced and therefore likely to be clung to at this moment. ..... If eye-sense is not > experienced and not clung to, it is not upadana khandha.< N: It is khandha, thus also upadaanakkhandha. S: the Mahapunnama > Sutta, MN109, > > In this sutta we read about the upadana khandhas rooted in desire. We read > that ‘the clinging is neither the same as these five aggregates affected > by clinging, nor is the clinging something apart from the five aggregates > affected by clinging.It is the desire and lust in regard to the five > aggregates affected by clinging that is the clinging there.’ The Buddha is > then asked about the diversity in the desire regarding the upadana khandha > and explains the various wishes or desires that may arise. N: Exactly. Nina. 27902 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Michael, Howard answered your question on sabhava very clearly. I can add something later on. When you have misgivings, do speak out, useful for all of us. You may give some examples of sayings on this list which you find controversial. I bet, when the word realities is used. Howard formerly suggested actualities, which is fine too. It does not matter to me, so long as we know what the expression means. Or can you give examples from the Abhidhamma, points you consider as different from Suttanta. Helpful, then we can look into it. Let us keep this dialogue going, Nina. 27903 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Yoniso-manasikaara (wise attention) CORRECTION --- Sarah wrote: > Sometimes, it’s just used for any wise reflection. E.g, Vism 1, 85: > > “’Reflecting wisely,he uses the robe pnly for protection from the > cold....”- .... Besides the typo in 'only', reflecting a little more wisely I think this was an example of unwise reflection on my part;-( Yoniso for wisely, but not not manasikaara.I think reflection here is pa.tisankhaa, looking at the back of Vism. I don't think yoniso manasikaara is ever used in this kind of context. it didn't sound write when I wrote it. Apologies, Sarah ====== 27904 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:50am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenH, KenH: Your whole argument seems to have come down to 'essence does not depend on another.' It certainly doesn't, I agree with you there. KenH: Essence does not mean 'not dependent' in the sense of 'not a part of dependent origination.' Paramattha dhammas do arise and cease in dependence on conditions; there is no doubt about that. Michael: Can you see the contradiction in your argument? Or is it just me? KenH: This is why the teaching of absolute reality is irresistible; it takes out all the ambiguity. Michael: Yes, and this is why there is so much attachment to some form of reification, which is the same as going with the flow. And that is why it is said that Buddhist teachings go against the stream. Metta Michael 27905 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:23am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Robert, > Dear Michael and James, > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > characteristics"" James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I know that matter doesn't have its own characteristics. Even the elements of the Periodic Table, which are categorized according to increasing atomic number and characteristics, are not ultimate realities. They change, transmute, and are continually unstable. Quantum Physics demonstrates that this impermanence is even more basic than the atom.) > I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their > characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and > commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for > philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the > 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. James: What exactly is helpful about filling your mind with useless and incorrect data about the world? Isn't it better to accept that nothing is stable and that nothing is what it appears to be? > Robert Metta, James 27906 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:23am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello RobertK, RobertK; If we see that the commentaries are not for philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at the 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. Michael: Agree. But if one still regards the dhammas as paramatha with sabhava that is miccha ditti which will be an obstacle for emancipation. And whenever someone thinks of the dhammas as paramatha and with sabhava, whether wanting or not, a philosophical stand is being taken. Metta Michael 27907 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Nina, Thanks for your encouragement. I may sometimes sound negative in relation to the Abhidhamma but I want to stress that I really admire it and consider to be extremely useful for a better understanding. Nina: Or can you give examples from the Abhidhamma, points you consider as different from Suttanta Michael: I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. Metta Michael 27908 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: FW: [Pali] Re: MN62 anapanasati Dear Sarah and all, I thought this suitable, since we are still on anapanasati. The same on Pali list. op 10-12-2003 15:51 schreef Ong Yong Peng op ypong001@y...: > > thanks again, Nina. It is amazing how the Buddha understand things. > Does "body in the body" only applies to breath in the physical body, > ruupakaaya? Thanks. N: Rahula developed with this subject samatha to the degree of jhana as well as insight. He was highly gifted and could attain jhana, by developing calm. He was mindful of breath, a rupa, material phenomenon, as it touched the upperlip or nose. But he also developed insight. This means, after emerging from jhana, absorption, he was mindful of all dhammas that appeared, jhanacitta that had just fallen away, the accompanying jhanafactors, or rupas. Breath is actually tangible object, appearing as hardness, softness, heat, cold, oscillation or pressure. As we read: > > We say that breath is a body. Further, the twentyfive classes of > rupa, namely, the sense-base of visible object (ruupaayatana).... > nutriment, are called the physical body, ruupakaaya (N:different from > the mental body). Of these, breathing is ³a certain body² because it > is included in tangible object base (pho.t.tabbaayatana). ³That is > why²: because he contemplates the body of wind (vaayokaaya, motion or > pressure) among the four bodies (N: the four Great Elements) N: But he had to be aware of all kinds of rupas that the Buddha had explained to him before and also of mental phenomena. Not only tangible object, but all kinds: thus all kinds. This is a whole list, including sound, odour, flavour, etc. He had to see the body in the body, we read:< a mere body only, by not contemplating it as containing anything that can be apprehended as "I" or "mine" or "woman" or "man" all this is contemplation of the body. > As we read in the Sutta, Rahula had to realize: < Thus, "this is not mine, this I am not, this is not myself" is to be seen with right wisdom just as it is.> Nina. 27909 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness op 11-12-2003 04:37 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > There wasn't much conversation immediately afterwards > because Brian was late for a social appointment. But, > even as he walked to his car, he kept repeating, "That's > bloody marvellous! I really like that -- just phenomena, > no stories -- thanks for explaining it that way." N: A priceless story. So spontaneous. I love people who find the Dhamma bloody marvellous. Can you not invite him to dsg, then we can continue the dialogue. K: > N: > Ven. Nyanatiloka explains niyaama: > Fixedness of Law regarding all things. > There is a fivefold natural order, that governs: > 1. temperature, season. > 2. plant life. > 3. kamma. > 4. functions of citta in the processes. > 5. certain events occurring in the lives of the Buddhas. > > Meanwhile, thank you for explaining it to me. I have > read it before but without it's having much impact. Now, > to use your words, it is really striking. It gives me > added appreciation of what you remind of us here: "The > Buddha himself could not stop kamma from producing > vipaka. It is the natural law of kamma, kamma nyaama. > After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a > teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. N: This last point is in another sutta, I cannot find now. I have the same all the time: so many points I overlooked but which get more meaning afterwards. Like now the latent tendencies. See also the processes of citta: it helps us to see anatta. The lobha and dosa come in so fast. Nina. 27910 From: htootintnaing Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:18am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Dhamma Friends, Death is arising all the time. But what is death becomes an issue. There are different definitions on death. There will be difference in all of these definition. One gone. Soon after, another gone. Even though there is no waiting list, there is at least a person die at every second. If unrelated and remote, there is little or no feeling. But if related and very close, there arise grief. This grief arises from alternative viewing of Dhamma. The grief will be released at the same place where it was picked up. Dear Jack and Howard things are going on their own. But as we are assuming us as us, we have to do our functions. There are many functions in conventional terms. There are many duties like duties of children, duties of parents, duties of teachers, duties of pupils, duties of husbands, duties of wives, duties of employers, duties of employee, duties of friends, duties of leaders and endless duties. But these duties can be performed sensibly under practice I think. May all beings satisfy their existence and find Dhamma Htoo Naing -------------------------------------------------------- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: Dear Suan, This is great. I will try to recloolect this tonight when I get into bed. robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" suanluzaw@b...> wrote: There are many teachings in Buddhism that are counter-intuitive for those on the beginning stages of learning and training. I regard my bedroom as my death room because I sleep deep sleep every night. Deep sleep (bhavangam), linking consciounsess (pa.tisandhi cittam) and death consciousness (cuti cittam, transiting consciousness) are the same type of consciousness according to the Abhidhamma teaching. When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. 27911 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi Ken O and Christine, I wanted to write a response to this thread, but am glad that I didn't until now. Because reading your response Ken, mine would have seemed like a lot of words with very little said. I liked this post Ken, and Anumodana on your great understanding of the Dhamma. I especially liked this reminder: >>Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :).<< :-) Metta, Sukin. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong wrote: > Hi Christine > > Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H > > Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right > conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. > > Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt > only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. > > Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time > thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives > in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). > > It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy to > realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no > need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every > moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in > ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a > source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :). > Cheers > > > > Kind regards > Ken O 27912 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:15pm Subject: Re: characteristics Hi James, I'm never averse to contributions from a scientific perspective. I just wanted to agree with you about the Periodic Table of The Elements as a whole, or it's constituent parts not having any ultimate reality. Similarly the Periodic Table of Namas and Rupas is just a conceptual model that in some cases can help to understand that what is taken for real is not real, but in most cases serves to confuse one concept with another. Experience can be theorised about as the simultaneous arising of a number of independantly arising non-experienced "states" (it's just a word), the absence of any of which would result in the absence of the experience. It can also be theorised about in any number of other ways. There is no experience of namas and rupas. There is experience. Namas, rupas, and the doors they came through are the after-party dissections and ruminations about non-graspable and undifferentiated awareness. Nothing wrong with after-party ruminations. I quite enjoy them. But when after-party ruminations are mistakenly used as the source for after-party ruminations, then there is much talk about a party that never happened. Peace, love and joy Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > Dear Michael and James, > > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > > characteristics"" > > James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't > matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, > what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' > characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter > what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism > and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always > argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I > know that matter doesn't have its own characteristics. Even the > elements of the Periodic Table, which are categorized according to > increasing atomic number and characteristics, are not ultimate > realities. They change, transmute, and are continually unstable. > Quantum Physics demonstrates that this impermanence is even more > basic than the atom.) > > > I think if we imagine that dhammas are different from their > > characteristics then we go away from what the Abhidhamma and > > commentaries teach. If we see that the commentaries are not for > > philosphical discussion but to point directly to what appears at > the > > 6 doors then we can come to see how profound and helpful they are. > > James: What exactly is helpful about filling your mind with useless > and incorrect data about the world? Isn't it better to accept that > nothing is stable and that nothing is what it appears to be? > > > Robert > > Metta, James 27913 From: Michael Beisert Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hello Nina, Nina: After he attained enlightenment he said, to whom as a teacher he could pay respect? To the Dhamma. N: This last point is in another sutta, I cannot find now. Michael: "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "One suffers if dwelling without reverence or deference. Now on what priest or contemplative can I dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him?" ..... "What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn06-002.html Metta Michael 27914 From: Egberdina Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 2:13pm Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Hi Suan, I was interested in the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that? Peace, love and joy Herman 27915 From: jangchup777 Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:58am Subject: Hello from new member To Everyone in Group, Hi. I'm happy to join the Dhamma study group. I'm a 22 year old guy living in Schenectady NY. I began meditation about 2 years ago. My interest in Buddhism really began several months after I began meditating when I found a copy of the Dhammapada in the basement of a used bookstore. Last summer I lived as a resident at the Bhavana Society in West Virginia. Maybe some of you have visited there. It was a good experience over all. I often read suttas from the Sutta Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of suffering. I think I found the way to this group just by surfing the internet. From, Ben 27916 From: Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Group The Buddha said... "In whatsoever way we conceive, the truth is ever other than that." It seems to me that in order to communicate we need to use terms, but whenever we use terms, we miss the "mark of actuality" to some degree. I think its more of a matter of getting away from bad terms than actually finding one that's accurate. The term "characteristic" seems to me much better than say "own characteristic" or the even worse "intrinsic characteristic." (The latter two way too strongly ignoring the principle of Dependent Origination.) No matter how good the term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is conceptualized, I think we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be mindful that even its conceptualization is delusive. (I suppose if one were enlightened, that mindfulness would have been cultivated to the point that no delusive attribute would accompany the use of terminology.) TG 27917 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 3:20pm Subject: Yahoo mixed up Hi All, I notice the messages I sent yesterday all got a bit jumbled by yahoo, coming out in an entirely different order to that sent and some only after delays of several hours. Don't be alarmed if this happens from time to time. Just be patient;-) Metta, Sarah ====== 27918 From: Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, eyefaculty. Hi Nina, If there are a lot of notes on this section let me know when to go ahead. No rush, and just translate what is interesting. Larry 27919 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:24pm Subject: The 3 non-Existents ! Friends: What is not ? The Greek king Milinda (1st century BC) once asked Bhikkhu Nagasena: "Please tell me Venerable Sir, what there is not in this world!" The cooled Monk answered: 'That which, whether conscious or unconscious, do not age, die & disappear, that exists not in this world... That construction, whether physical or mental, that do not change & decay, that exists not in this world... That becoming that leads to a stable & definable entity, person, identity or being, that exists not in this world... These three, Sir, are not found in the worlds...' --oo0oo-- Source: King Milinda's Questions. http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=132633 http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebsut045.htm All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. 27920 From: Andrew Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 8:52pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Michael Beisert" wrote: > I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to > the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded > in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in > fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, > his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that > key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be > wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. Hi Michael It takes all kinds to make a world and I must be one of the slower ones. I've read your concerns over paramattha/sabhava several times in a number of posts and I don't ask you to repeat them. What I would like to know is - when you talk about things existing or not existing, what time dimension (if any) are you referring to? Are you saying that change occurs within a point of time? That a point of time is just a "snapshot" used for intellectual discussion? Do you believe in "mind moments" (I forget the Pali term)? Metta Andrew PS there is a Professor at Princeton who now argues that our universe has 2 time dimensions. 27921 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 7:12pm Subject: Local is Global! Friends: World’s End ? The shining young god Rohitassa, who usually travelled with the speed of imagination, once asked the Buddha: Venerable Sir, is it possible to reach the end of the world & the end of birth, ageing, death, passing & rebirth by travel ? The Knower of all worlds then responded: Friend, I do not say, that there is an end of the world, where one is neither born, nor ages, nor dies, nor passes on, nor reappears, which can be reached, known or seen by travel. Yet, neither do I say that there is an end to Misery without reaching the world’s end! Rather, it is right within this very same fathom long frame of body, endowed with conscious experience, that I make known the world, the appearance of the world, the disappearance of the world & the Way to end the World !!! One cannot reach the end of the World by travel. Yet there is no escape from pain without ending the world. Therefore, let the Wise One know how to end the world by fulfilling the Noble life. Such one knowing the World's End through silenced calming, longs neither for this nor for any other world... --oo0oo-- Source: The connected discourses of the Buddha. Samyutta Nikaya SN [I 62] Bhikkhu Samahita Sri Lanka Buddha-Direct. 27922 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] meditation for all occasions Dear Sarah, and this is one of the meditations for all occasions we spoke about: recollection of the Triple Gem. Nina. op 11-12-2003 07:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > When I hear or read helpful reminders about the truth and am able to > listen (which is not always by any means), it’s a condition to really pay > respect to the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha for making these truths available > to me. 27923 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death Dear Suan, Thank you, maranasati: another meditation subject for every occasion. Or we can consider momentary death of each citta, but that is harder to do. We take it so much for granted that each citta that falls away is succeeded by a next one. Moreover, I only know this in theory. It must be different for those who can experience this by insight. Nina. op 11-12-2003 16:10 schreef abhidhammika op suanluzaw@b...: > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. 27924 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] New member, Jeff Brooks Hi Michael (& Jeff), You ask an important qu and I'd like to add more on this and your other one, but will have to wait til after the w'end now as I'm v.busy these couple of days. Meanwhile, pls take a look at a good chapter on piti cetasika in Nina's book 'Cetasikas' (a very useful purchase too): http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas13.html You might also look at the ch on manasikaara,ch 7 in the meantime too. Michael, as Nina says, pls continue with the other paramatha/sabhava threads. These discussions are very helpful for us all and I like the fact that you question and consider and don’t agree unless satisfied;-) Your contributions are very valuable. Metta, Sarah ======= 27925 From: Sarah Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 11:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from new member Hi Ben, Thanks for joining us and for introducing yourself so well. --- jangchup777 wrote: > To Everyone in Group, > > Hi. I'm happy to join the Dhamma study group. I'm a 22 year old guy > living in Schenectady NY. ..... This is a great place to spend your time during those snow storms;-) There are a few other New Yorkers around - Howard is our most prolific NY poster. .... >I began meditation about 2 years ago. My > interest in Buddhism really began several months after I began > meditating when I found a copy of the Dhammapada in the basement of a > used bookstore. Last summer I lived as a resident at the Bhavana > Society in West Virginia. Maybe some of you have visited there. .... Again, Howard or others may have. I'm afraid I've never been to the East Coast or NY, but would love to one day. We're literally from all over the world here. Perhaps you can share some of your favourite Dhp verses or any other reflections anytime. .... It > was a good experience over all. I often read suttas from the Sutta > Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of > suffering. > > I think I found the way to this group just by surfing the internet. .... Excellent! Again, pls raise any suttas you'd like to discuss for any reason. If you find some posts here too technical, just skip them for now or ask any qus. You can also use the search option on the back-up for the list here: http://www.escribe.com/religion/dhammastudygroup/ or in the word documents for the archives kept in the file section by RobM: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ Look forward to hearing plenty more from you, Ben. Metta, Sarah ======= 27926 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sukinderpal Singh Narula" wrote: > Hi Ken O and Christine, > > I wanted to write a response to this thread, but am glad that I > didn't until now. Because reading your response Ken, mine would have > seemed like a lot of words with very little said. I liked this post > Ken, and Anumodana on your great understanding of the Dhamma. > I especially liked this reminder: > > >>Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a source of > unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable support :).<< > > :-) > Metta, > Sukin. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Kenneth Ong > wrote: > > Hi Christine > > > > Relax go for a yoga course :) or go sea surfing with Ken H > > > > Patience is the name of the game bc understanding depends on right > > conditions maturing and cannot be hurried or forced. > > > > Perplex is also there so dont worry too much, bc hanging on doubt > > only condition more doubt and mental restlessness. > > > > Mindful and discern - Understanding will come - is a matter of time > > thats all, maybe not this life but at least we don't live our lives > > in vain. Akusala may accumulate so does kusala :). > > > > It is not easy to know there is no doer in the doing, its not easy > to > > realise practise is right here and right now, no need to seek, no > > need to find or do something. Its right here and right now, every > > moment. It is just a matter of time this mystery will unravel in > > ourselves. Till then, have faith in Dhamma. It never lies, its a > > source of unlimited strength, its a source of unshakeable > support :). > > Cheers > > Kind regards > > Ken O Ken O, Sukin, I believe you misinterpret that post by Christine. When I read her post I didn't sense that she was writing from a feeling of personal angst about the Buddha-dharma, she was just asking a question. When a person is so far from the dhamma, and there is no self to do anything about it, how is that person supposed to get closer to the dhamma? It is a philosophical question and reflects absolutely nothing about Christine. I seriously doubt that she was looking for platitudes and advice to go surfing! ;-)) Metta, James 27927 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 4:40am Subject: Re: characteristics Hi Herman --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: > Hi James, > > I'm never averse to contributions from a scientific perspective. > I just wanted to agree with you about the Periodic Table of The > Elements as a whole, or it's constituent parts not having any > ultimate reality. Similarly the Periodic Table of Namas and Rupas is > just a conceptual model that in some cases can help to understand > that what is taken for real is not real, but in most cases serves to > confuse one concept with another. > Well, I hear from all sides on this issue. Some say that misunderstanding arises in those who read the Abhidhamma incorrectly, some say that the Abhidhamma itself is incorrect, some say (which is a new one from Michael) that the commentaries have misinterpreted the Abhidhamma. There seems to be a lot of finger pointing and very few answers. Since I don't have any copies of the books of the Abhidhamma, I can only go on what I read written about it. It seems to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. Metta, James 27928 From: sukinder Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa Hi James, Thanks for pointing this out. But it did cross my mind about the appropriateness of Ken's response, and I thought that maybe like me, he has Christine's other posts in mind at the same time. Anyway on the whole my responnse was to Ken's comment in terms of his own general understanding and I did not even consider so much what Chrisitine's response would be to them.:-) Besides the whole point about going surfing and all is perhaps related to silabbataparamasa, maybe?...;-) Have been enjoying reading your posts! Metta, Sukin. Ken O, Sukin, I believe you misinterpret that post by Christine. When I read her post I didn't sense that she was writing from a feeling of personal angst about the Buddha-dharma, she was just asking a question. When a person is so far from the dhamma, and there is no self to do anything about it, how is that person supposed to get closer to the dhamma? It is a philosophical question and reflects absolutely nothing about Christine. I seriously doubt that she was looking for platitudes and advice to go surfing! ;-)) Metta, James 27929 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 5:24am Subject: Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Hi Robert, > > > Dear Michael and James, > > Did you read the commentary I posted. To repeat:The majjhimanikaya > > tika (mulapariyaya sutta) ""there > > IS NO REAL DISTINCTION between these dhammas and their > > characteristics"" > > James: This is entirely beside the point I was making. It doesn't > matter if the dhammas and their characteristics are the same thing, > what matters is when it is said that they have their `own' > characteristics, that they are an ultimate reality, that no matter > what they will continue to be as they are now. This is eternalism > and contradictory to impermanence and non self. (I have always > argued this in this group but more from a scientific perspective. I _________ Dear James, Take the example of dosa - anger- it is an element with certain harsh characteristics. It is always of a certain nature but no dosa can be exactly the same as another. Even we are angry for a minute or an hour the dosa is never the same becuase there are different conditions conditioning the dosa to arise. And it is by investigating the nature of dosa - or any other element - that this can be understood. This is experiential and so it has to be known when it arises - in the present. If there is no dosa arising now it cannot be investigated directly , but there are other elements, such as hardness or pleasant feeling or seeing that may be arising and can be studied. Robk 27930 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:39am Subject: Re: characteristics --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > Dear James, > Take the example of dosa - anger- it is an element with certain > harsh characteristics. It is always of a certain nature but no dosa > can be exactly the same as another. Even we are angry for a minute > or an hour the dosa is never the same becuase there are different > conditions conditioning the dosa to arise. And it is by > investigating the nature of dosa - or any other element - that this > can be understood. This is experiential and so it has to be known > when it arises - in the present. If there is no dosa arising now it > cannot be investigated directly , but there are other elements, such > as hardness or pleasant feeling or seeing that may be arising and > can be studied. > Robk Hi Rob K, Again, I think we keep basically missing each other. I will address your example- dosa (anger). You write about dosa "It is always of a certain nature but no dosa can be exactly the same as another." To say that anger is "always" of a certain nature and yet no two instances can be exactly the same is somewhat contradictory and vague to me. How can this be considered an ultimate reality? To change the focus a bit, allow me to share a poem I recently taught to my English classes: A Poison Tree From Songs of Experience By William Blake I was angry with my friend: I told my wrath, my wrath did end. I was angry with my foe: I told it not, my wrath did grow. And I watered it in fears, Night and morning with my tears; And I sunned it with smiles, And with soft deceitful wiles. And it grew both day and night, Till it bore an apple bright; And my foe beheld it shine, And he knew that it was mine, And into my garden stole When the night had veiled the pole; In the morning glad I see My foe outstretched beneath the tree. When I taught this poem, I discussed with my classes the varying nature of anger. I explained that anger is never really one emotion but several. Anger at a friend, when told, will quickly go away because it is of a different nature than anger at a foe (enemy). That second type of anger grows with the emotions of fears and sadness until it grows into something poisonous. Usually this poison will `kill' the person that has the anger but for irony, Blake had the anger kill the foe. Is anger an ultimate reality? How could it be when it manifests in so many different ways? Our label of `anger' or `dosa' is just a convenient label, it doesn't really describe a `single' thing. As far as your first other examples (I don't have time to address them all), to me hardness isn't an ultimate reality either. What is `hard' and by whose standards? Is water hard? How about when it's frozen? Is air hard? What about when it's in a tornado or hurricane? These are all relative characteristics to me and don't point to an ultimate reality. Metta, James 27931 From: abhidhammika Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 6:43am Subject: Re: Buddhism Is Counter-Intuitive Regarding Death : To Herman Dear Herman, Robert K, Nina, Htoo Et Al Herman wrote: "I was interested in the following: If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that?" The quick answer is No. The bhavanga cittam (life-component consciousness) is a kind of filling-in mental resting state between the active mental events processing stimuli of different types. Pali expression for these active processing of stimuli is "viithi", cognitive road. Cognitive roads never represents smooth long straight lines. Rather, they represent very complex appearing and disappearing networks of abrupt repetitive wave crests. Each cognitive road appears by breaking off many bhavanga states and disappears on the spot by being replaced with bhavanga states which are equally impermanent and selfless, of course. When we observe a phenomenon, we do so with cognitive roads, the mental consciousness road (manoviññaa.naviithi) in particular. The phenomenon of deep sleep changing to transiting consciousness involves no cognitive road because both are the bhavanga consciousness types. Similarly, the phenomenon of transiting consciousness changing (immediately) to linking consciousness does not involve any cognitive road for the same reason that both are the bhavanga consciousness types. Therefore, when deep sleep changes to transiting consciousness, no observation can occur because such a change does not involve cognitive roads. The same applies when transiting consciousness changes to linking consciosness. Please remember that Theravada as the Buddha's teachings does not allow any limbo state between transiting consciousness and linking consciousness. In plain English, the dying moment is immediately followed by the rebirth moment. Nothing or nobody hangs around its dead body. By the way, your if-clause : "If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness", is better restated as follows. "If deep sleep had changed to transiting consciousness or transiting consciusness to linking consciousness," Deep sleep cannot directly change to linking consciousness by skipping the stage of transiting consciousness. With regards, Suan http://www.bodhiology.org --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egberdina" wrote: Hi Suan, I was interested in the following: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "abhidhammika" wrote: > > > When I wake up in the morning, I always remember to at once observe > that my deep sleep did not change into transiting consciousness and > linking consciousness for the time being. In fact, just before I go > to bed each night, I am always mindful of deep sleep being the same > type of consciousness as transiting consciousness. And then, I take > the plunge into deep sleep as though about to die. > If deep sleep had changed to either transiting or linking consciousness , would you be able to observe that? Peace, love and joy Herman 27932 From: Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, TG - In a message dated 12/11/03 10:18:54 PM Eastern Standard Time, TGrand458@a... writes: > Hello Group > > The Buddha said... "In whatsoever way we conceive, the truth is ever other > than that." > > It seems to me that in order to communicate we need to use terms, but > whenever we use terms, we miss the "mark of actuality" to some degree. I > think its > more of a matter of getting away from bad terms than actually finding one > that's accurate. > > The term "characteristic" seems to me much better than say "own > characteristic" or the even worse "intrinsic characteristic." (The latter > two way too > strongly ignoring the principle of Dependent Origination.) No matter how > good the > term is, its still fraught with notions of essence, entity, etc. > > Even when a "bare ingredient" such as "firmness" is conceptualized, I think > we cannot help but impart a sense of "entity" to it. > > So what can be done is to use the best term possible and be mindful that > even > its conceptualization is delusive. (I suppose if one were enlightened, that > > mindfulness would have been cultivated to the point that no delusive > attribute > would accompany the use of terminology.) > > TG > =========================== I think you're right on target! There is a Son (Korean Zen) master who says something along the lines of "Mouth open, already a mistake!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27933 From: Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 3:44am Subject: Misunderstood Teachings (Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics) Hi, James - In a message dated 12/12/03 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > It seems > to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is > then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. > Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. > ====================== I can't say for sure whether there is an "intrinsic flaw" in the Abhidhamma or not. I personally find it to be inadequate compared to the suttas, which I believe are largely the actual word of the Buddha. I am not an Abhidhammika. But as to your statement "Something truly good could not be so misunderstood," I must definitely disagree. For centuries, and especially in more recent times since the Dhamma was "discovered" by Europeans, and based primarily on the suttas and not on the hardly-read Abhidhamma, Buddhism has been taken for a pessimistic nihilism! There is far less understanding of Buddhism (of all schools) than understanding of it. So, where there is smoke there is fire? Must there be an intrinsic flaw in the suttas as well? As the Buddha himself said, the Dhamma goes against the stream. It is deep and *not* easily accepted. That doesn't make it a false teaching. Teachings that are easy to accept are typically teachings that accomodate our afflictions, and are typically false teachings. If elements of Abhidhamma appear irrelevant, or silly, or contrary to the teachings in the suttas, for each of which I think a case can be made, then it is reasonable to point out and question those elements. But the mere fact of there being a lot of misunderstanding (real or apparent) of a teaching does not imply the teaching is not good. If that were so, then the Dhamma, itself, would be not good. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27934 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: anapanasati 6 c anapanasati 6 c The fourth tetrad pertains to the contemplation of dhammas (mental objects) in dhammas. We read in the Commentary to the Sutta (translated by Ven. Nyanatiloka) about the explanations of the words of the sutta: : here covetousness is the hindrance of lust. By grief the hindrance of ill will is pointed out. For this tetrad is stated by way of insight. And contemplation of mental objects is sixfold... Of that contemplation, the section on the hindrances is the beginning... Accordingly, he said, in order to point out the beginning of the contemplation of mental objects. (phaana.m) means it is the knowledge of abandoning, thus, that is intended... N: The Co refers to higher stages of insight knowledge leading to more detachment from conditioned realities: fading away (viraaga~naa.na), cessation (nirodha ~naa.na), and relinquishment (pa.tinissagga). We read further on: : because one who proceeds by the method, etc., is one who looks on with complete equanimity after successively seeing with understanding not only the mental objects beginning with the hindrances, but also the knowledge of the abandoning of the mental objects stated under the heading of covetousness and grief. Therefore, it should be understood that Nina: In the Way of Mindfulness, Co translated by Ven. Soma, it is stated that just as in the case of body, feeling and citta, the mental objects should be contemplated in seven ways: as impermanent; as being subject to dukkha; as anatta; by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; by freeing himself of passion for it; with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; and not by way of laying hold of it, by by way of giving it up. As we have seen, the hindrances are classified under the mental objects, and they include also the khandhas, the sense-bases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four Truths. Nina 27935 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 49, etc, eyefaculty. Hi Larry, thanks, coming along soon, Nina. op 12-12-2003 01:31 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Hi Nina, > > If there are a lot of notes on this section let me know when to go > ahead. No rush, and just translate what is interesting. > 27936 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Dear Sarah, op 11-12-2003 09:16 schreef Sarah op sarahdhhk@y...: > I look forward to your series on latent tendencies. I agree about the > remedy. The more understanding develops,the less idea there will be of my > akusala’ and thereby the less dwelling and oppression as you say. N: Before I had different ideas of latent tendencies, but this study is an eye opener. It uses many texts from the Yamaka, the sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, which does not have an English translation. The Guide through the Abhidhamma Pitaka gives a good summary. I had underestimated the strength of latent tendencies, I thought that they are just subtle, and did not pay much heed. I thought, well, only at enlightenment they will be eradicated. They are subtle anyway. But I got the wrong notion of subtle defilements. Now it is repeated again and again that they are strong, powerful, because they are not eradicated. They lie persistant dormant in the series of cittas. And worse: when strong pariyutthana defilement arises with the citta, and falls away, the akusala is added to the latent tendencies. Akusala is heaped up again and again!! Makes us have more work to get rid of it. When the object is right for the defilement, there is the opportunity for being added to the latent tendencies Thus, they change all the time while citta arises and falls away. It is repeated; we are very sick, even when the microbes do not break out. Also the role of feeling which experiences the taste of the object is explained. This helps to have a sense of urgency. I may need to order Yamaka Pali. Also other commentaries, such as the Co to the Path of Discrimination is used and also this is not in English. Nina. 27937 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics, elements. Hello Michael, op 11-12-2003 19:34 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: I may sometimes sound negative in relation to > the Abhidhamma but I want to stress that I really admire it and consider to > be extremely useful for a better understanding. N: You give us food for thought. The wrong is not with the texts but in ourselves, the latent tendencies of clinging and wrong view. And they condition the arising of clinging to any object. As T G said, the terms used can lead to misunderstanding, we can apply them wrongly. I understand your qualms about ultimate or absolute realities. M: I am far from reading all the suttas but I have yet to find a reference to > the five aggregates as paramatha/sabhava. And this is how they are regarded > in the commentaries of the Abhidhamma. It may seem a trivial point but in > fact if someone really believes that there is something that trully exists, > his/her thinking process will be shaped by that understanding. And if that > key assumption turns out to be wrong, his/her understanding will also be > wrong. And as we all know Samma dithi is the forerunner of the whole path. N: I follow you here and consider your last sentence a good reminder. There is the danger to go wrong all the time. Especially when the beginning is already wrong. You wrote to Rob K: If you say hardness is the earth element’ you are clearly stating that hardness belongs to earth element, is an intrinsic part of earth element. What I am saying is that if earth element is conditioned then it is impossible for earth element to have any kind of intrinsic part in it. Earth element as well as hardness are both conditioned. N: The Buddha spoke about dhammas as khandhas, sense-fields (aayatanas) and elements. All with the purpose to become detached from them, not taking them for self. The elements of earth (hardness or softness), fire (heat or cold) and wind (motion or pressure) as used in the Tipitaka represent dhammas we can directly experience, without having to name them.Water cannot be experienced by touch, only through the mind-door. Do touch the table now. Is there hardness? You do not have to name it in order to experience it. The Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint reminds us that there is hardness (earth) in the body, but also outside. When we touch hardness there is no difference, but we do not like to hear this. We find the body very special. We read in the Mahaaraahulovaadasutta also that the Buddha taught Rahula about the elements. Rahula was clinging so much to his body (attaabhaava), but he had to develop vipassanaa pa~n~naa, to realize that there is not the whole body; that what we take for my body are only different elements which fall away immediately. In the ³Greater Discourse on the Elephant's Footprint² Sariputta spoke about the impermanence of outward rupas by explaining about the calamities in nature. Evenso the rupas of the body are impermanent, they fall away immediately. As we have read in the Commentary to the Mahaaraahulovaada sutta: Rahula had to develop understanding not only of materiality, ruupa, but also of mental phenomena, naama, of all five khandhas. When we take them all as a whole, there is the idea of a person. Hearing is naama, a citta that experiences sound, it is not the ruupa that is sound, it is no the ruupa that is earsense. Understanding this, not only by reflection, but by direct understanding of the characteristics of the elements as they appear one at a time must lead to detachment. Clinging to the idea of "I, mine" can decrease. As we read in the Mahaarahulovaadasutta: See, that is the purpose of it all. But as we read in the "Muulapariyaaya Sutta", (The root of Existence and its Commentaries, translated by B.B.): we can go completely wrong. We are bound to go wrong all the time, and it is worse, if we do not realize it. We believe we are aware of the present moment, such as hardness and are delighted. But oh, we are holding on to dhammas. That is why A. Sujin reminds us not to *think* about satipatthana, that induces clinging. One may cling to anything, to breath, to concentration, to calm, to one's practice. We do this when we make it into something important. Now back to the terms. So long as we understand what they represent any term can be used, even sabhava. It is true that in the Suttanta you will not find the term paramattha dhamma. But this does not matter, the purpose of such terms is explained again and again. This term serves to explain the difference between conventional reality (person, table, etc.) and what is not a conventional reality, but only an element: mental or material. The expression: , only means: it can be directly experienced without naming it. If you feel uneasy now, it is aversion or anger. Anger is anger and it cannot be changed into metta. That is the meaning. And also: it is conditioned, beyond control, it falls away immediately, it is non-self. Instead of paramattha dhamma we can use the word dhamma. The term khandha denotes the same as conditioned dhamma. Five khandhas, nama and rupa. Since we are beginners, we keep on having wrong view. When insight is more developed, dhammas will be seen as conditioned, by direct experience. And after that their arising and falling away will be realized. Much later. Nina. 27938 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Justice and Fairness Hello Michael, Thank you very much, I could not find it. Nina. op 12-12-2003 01:46 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@h...: > "I have heard that on one occasion, when the Blessed One was newly > Self-awakened, he was staying at Uruvela on the bank of the Nerañjara River, > at the foot of the Goatherd's Banyan Tree. Then, while he was alone and in > seclusion, this line of thinking arose in his awareness: "One suffers if > dwelling without reverence or deference. Now on what priest or contemplative > can I dwell in dependence, honoring and respecting him?" > ..... > "What if I were to dwell in dependence on this very Dhamma to which I have > fully awakened, honoring and respecting it?" > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn06-002.html 27939 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] ditthi, etc. conceit Dear Christine, good points, I combine with another post, a question on cetasikas, conceit. op 10-12-2003 11:21 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > Just a thought - what should a *person* do if others indicate they > believe them to have the two worst Defilements, i.e. ditthi (wrong > view) and vicikiccha(sceptical doubt) and not only that, it is > considered they also have the three basic Fetters - sakkaya-ditthi > (personality belief), vicikiccha (sceptical doubt) and > silabbataparamasa (attachment to rules and rituals). Laugh or cry? N: The *they* are surely the texts, Tipitaka and Commentaries. It is true!! Better to know than not knowing the truth about ourselves. Laughing, though motivated by lobha, also helps us to take a certain distance, not to find our reactions too important. Ch: According to the Abhidhamma, isn't it true that nothing can be done - > no-self to do it, no control of these thoughts or beliefs? How,then, > can one *develop* samma-ditthi (right view)? N: As Howard said, the study of Abhidhamma should not induce to a lax or passive attitude. No, our study of defilements can induce a healthy sense of urgency. Understanding (not me) knows what to do: very urgent to continue developing. Persevere, have courage. A little more understanding of our defilements is already beneficial. Ch (other post): what I thought was my 'good mannered' deferring to the superior knowledge of others in a group, as compared to my own beginning understanding, was merely a form of omaana (inferiority conceit). I learned that there existed superiority conceit (atimaana) and equality conceit (maana) as well. If 'comparing' is conceit, does this mean that any recognition of difference between self and other is conceit? N: I make it worse. Even when not comparing there is bound to be conceit: my important personality. In India we made lots of examples, and this is real fun!! Let us do that again next time we meet. "He is dressed this way, o, funny." Look at the photographs of dsg, test yourself. Or: I am the Dhamma student, I am the Pali student. What will others think of *me*. With music: I play wrong notes, what will others think, or I play them right, how good I am. Opportunities enough. Ch: I think that it is easy to recognise dosa (anger) when it is strong enough to kill or harm, but I wonder what are some very subtle examples of dosa, lobha, and moha? N: good points. Some are coarse, some more subtle: a slight feeling of uneasiness is more subtle dosa. Or you take a glass of water: there can be lobha with indifferent feeling. Or you take a step forward in the room, plenty when there is no kusala: dana, sila or mental development. That is why Rob M insists so much on the ten bases of kusala. He realizes, when there is no kusala, we act, speak and think with akusala. CH: And the purpose of learning about cetasikas - it's helping us to see the utter anatta-ness of everything? ... just checking .. N: You understand that they arise before you even notice them. Michael would say, in the javana it is too late for yoniso manasikara. Actually, after the mind-door adverting citta the javanas follow so fast, it is nyaama, law of Dhamma. When there are conditions for kusala (even without panna) we can say there is wise attention, and this includes the whole series of javana. Nina. 27940 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Hello from new member Dear Ben, welcome to our group. I appreciate it that you often read suttas. Peerhaps you can share what you read with us? To know the end of suffering is a long way, but a beginning can be made. Nina. op 11-12-2003 20:58 schreef jangchup777 op bj3682@a...: I often read suttas from the Sutta > Pitaka. I would like to understand the Dhamma and know the end of > suffering. 27941 From: nordwest Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / The Doomed March Fly Dear Sarah, The great guru Lama Zopa Rinpoche tell us the story of the fly that circumized a stupa, following a cow that was walking around with a person. She attained rebirth as a humen being because of this. Ven. master Chin Kung and others tell us about the experienment of mind-power, where a dozen Japanese monks concentrated some days on the water in a large japanese damm to be pure and clear. The scientists then took samples and analyzed them, compared the to the water quality before, and found that the water of the damm was freed from defilements, only pure water crystals. We often forget, that we have the buddha nature, the power to do supernatural wonders with the mind. And because of lack of faith we fail to do so. Some may interpret the sutras like the Christians the bible, when it some to the point of supernatural powers, and say, "It's not meant literally. It's exaggeration." I do nt so. I take it literally, because I experience the protection of the buddhas and bodhisattvas daily. Gassho, Thomas Sarah wrote: Hi Thomas, As I wrote another post I remembered your comments on this popular thread and I don't think anyone replied. --- nordwest wrote: > Maybe the fly will reach a higher realm, because now so many buddhists > reflect upon her... .... It's nice to think our reflections might help, but it may be wishful thinking;-) .... >or maybe she had reached perfect enlightenment when > been eaten alive by the ants, like the monk who was eaten by the tiger > in the jungle.... .... Yes, but I think there are a few differences;-) I don't believe it's possible for an ant or animal to become enlightened. The monk developed the necessary wisdom which it's not possible for an animal to do. .... >the ways of karma are unconceiveable. I would rather > hope, she profited from it. ..... I think she'd have to profit from her own good kamma, but as you imply, the killing may have been a helpful decisive factor in this regard. Who knows? Metta, Sarah ====== 27942 From: Michael Beisert Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello Andrew, Andrew: What I would like to know is - when you talk about things existing or not existing, what time dimension (if any) are you referring to? Are you saying that change occurs within a point of time? That a point of time is just a "snapshot" used for intellectual discussion? Do you believe in "mind moments" (I forget the Pali term)? Michael: Time cannot be regarded as an independent entity on its own right but better as a dependent set of relations among empirical phenomena. Apart from those phenomena and those relations there is no time. Metta Michael 27943 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 0:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sarah / The Doomed March Fly Hello Thomas,:-) I think you may mean "circummambulate"? Otherwise this could be a rather mind boggling story ... (I am already wondering if the fly had to walk [in which case, what a magnificent achievement! and how did it keep up?] or if the fly, well, ..flew? And did it know what it was doing? or did it just interestedly follow the cows 'tail end'? I'm smiling Thomas - but thanks for the story, it has made me think a lot about 'the things we do'. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nordwest > The great guru Lama Zopa Rinpoche tell us the story of the fly that circumized a stupa, following a cow that was walking around with a person. She attained rebirth as a humen being because of this. 27944 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 0:57pm Subject: Misunderstood Teachings (Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - > > In a message dated 12/12/03 7:41:10 AM Eastern Standard Time, > buddhatrue@y... writes: > > > It seems > > to me that there must be an intrinsic flaw to the Abhidhamma which is > > then exacerbated by the commentaries and those who read it. > > Something truly good could not be so misunderstood. > > > ====================== > I can't say for sure whether there is an "intrinsic flaw" in the > Abhidhamma or not. I personally find it to be inadequate compared to the suttas, > which I believe are largely the actual word of the Buddha. I am not an > Abhidhammika. > But as to your statement "Something truly good could not be so > misunderstood," I must definitely disagree. Hi Howard, Hehehe…I knew as soon as I wrote that sentence that someone would jump on it! Okay, really that sentence was just a vague generalization and I don't feel any faithfulness to it. We can consider it withdrawn. However, I do want to explain a bit as to why I wrote that sentence (which is not argumentative support, just explanation). I truly don't believe that the Buddha-dhamma is horribly difficult to understand. The Buddha's dhamma is good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end. Of course when someone who is in the beginning tries to understand the dhamma of the end, there is bound to be misunderstanding; but that would be their fault, not the dhamma's fault. As far as the early Europeans, they were reading really BAD translations of the suttas. If I had read those translations I probably would have thought that Buddhism was nihilism also. I am able to explain the dhamma in terms that even small children can understand, as you may have seen by my letters to the Star Kids; of course I cannot explain adequately anatta and nibbana because they are beyond my level of understanding…but at least I KNOW that. But if even those who are really read and advanced in the Abhidhamma cannot agree with each other about the most basic tenets, and must continually go to an authority figure for explanation, I think there is something seriously wrong there. Before the Buddha passed he said that the Dhamma was to be the teacher after him, no one else. Okay, enough said. You win. ;-)) Metta, James 27945 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 2:55pm Subject: Tardy replies Hello All, My apologies to all those who have kindly replied to my posts on several threads, and who have heard nothing in return. All your posts are valuable (whether I agree, or disagree). They receive much mulling over and reflecting upon. Many are forwarded to work in case I get time during a lunch break for further consideration. Sometimes extracting 'words out of the mind' and putting 'words on the screen' is a difficult task - not like a flowing conversation. I've been very busy these last couple of weeks. You've heard of the corny one- liner "Usually I take one day at a time, but recently several days have attacked me at once." I feel a little like the cartoon of the Frog caught in the long pointed beak of the Egret, with his 'arms' and 'hands' reaching down, gripping the birds' neck and valiantly attempting to strangle it. The caption reads "NEVER give up". I'll try to put 'mind' in charge of 'keyboard' this weekend and send some responses. Just wanted you to know I get so much help from all the posts, I couldn't get by without them - not sure if I tell you this enough. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time --- 27946 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Thu Dec 11, 2003 9:03pm Subject: Internal Dust & Dirt! Friends: The 10 mental Defilements (Kilesas) 1: Attachment, Attraction, Lust & Greed. 2: Aversion, Repulsion, Hate, Anger & Irritation. 3: Confusion, Delusion, Ignorance, Not Knowing. 4: Conceit, Pride, Arrogance, The Deceit "I Am". 5: False View, Opinion, Prejudgement, Presumption. 6: Doubt, Uncertainty, Scepticism. 7: Stubbornness, Mental Rigidity, Obstinacy. 8: Restlessness, Agitation, Distractedness, Scatter. 9: Consciencelessness, no internal fear of wrongdoing. 10: Shamelessness, no sense of external decency. Source: The Path Of Purification. All yours in the Dhamma. In Equanimity & even Ease. Friendship is truly Greatest! Bhikkhu Samahita, Ceylon. 27947 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] anapanasati 6 c Hi Nina Thanks. It is interesting to note that these commentaries could be verify by study at the suttas. The other day, I went to make a small survey in one small part of SN what Buddha taught in the suttas in developing right understanding by impermanence http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-099.html by anatta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-085.html by not delighting in it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-115.html by not laying hold of it http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-127.html by not of giving it up http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-024.html Kind regards Ken O 27948 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:08pm Subject: Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT Hello KKT, and All, KKT: I see that the problem of Anatta perturbs you a lot, does it not? :-)) Christine: I understand intellectually that there is no lasting identity, no personality, just nama (mental phenomena) and rupa (physical phenomena) rising and passing away, continually changing, nothing permanent, nothing staying even for a moment. But when suffering is evident in other beings and myself, it is anatta that seems to be the illusion, not the other way round. I actually had a period recently when I tried to conceive the world and people the way I used to, as lasting things which eventually, over the years, crumble and die - but it no longer seemed valid or satisfying. Having once heard the Dhamma,there is no going back to the old comforting beliefs. But, presently, there is no comfort in the Dhamma. KKT: If you continue to see everything << according >> to Abhidharma then it is not for << real >> :-)) Christine: "What" is not for real? Everything (me, you, the universe and all that)? anatta or the Abhidhamma? KKT: Why don't you try to feel, to sense this << self >> inside yourself? Answer for yourself, "What is it?" Can "it" do anything, control anything? Christine: Not a wise or reliable thing to do. :-) Sensing what is inside, I "feel" exactly as I did when I was a devout Christian - like a chocolate-coated mint candy. The <> is the mint, the chocolate covering is the flesh. The <> mostly feels as if it is in the heart or head area. But I don't know that this feeling/sensing has any validity at all. The <> has no power, other than to control the body. It needs the body in order to "do" things - and the body can't choose to do things by itself - the one depends on the other. I doubt it can control anything (but not absolutely sure) - but, together, the body and "whatever it is" CAN do things together. Try Herman's experiment .. KKT: Feel "it", sense "it" for << real >> Christine: That is just my problem, KKT, it does feel <>. Or did you mean something else by <>? Best wishes, KKT metta and peace, Christine --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "phamdluan2000" 27949 From: Kenneth Ong Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] latent tendencies Hi Nina This also confirmed my intuitive believe that latent tendecies are strong and not subtle. Usually when I was mindful of an anger, when I investigate it further, there was a strong notion of a self. This means moha has also got to be very strong in inducing the notion of self supported by our latent tendecies. kind regards Ken O 27950 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Dec 12, 2003 11:19pm Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Howard, Herman and Michael (and Sarah), I owe each of you a reply (and I owe Sarah several but they might have to wait). After a few days away from the computer, [giving my poor eyes a rest], I'd like to take up where we left off. Howard, you commented on my message to Michael; You quoted the dictionary definition of essence and then offered your analysis. I have combined the two below along with my own comments: ----------------- Dictionary 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the accidental element of being ----------------- H: > Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism accepts no essence// ----------------- Why do you compare 'permanent' with 'anatta?' I would have thought anicca would have been more to the point. Not that I have much opinion on 1 a, I don't know what "the accidental element of being" refers to, so I won't comment. ---------------- Dictionary b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature of a thing especially as opposed to its existence ------------ H: > Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are one and the same, making this notion rather empty. -------------- Interrupting you there; Isn't the dictionary agreeing with the Abhidhamma? Isn't it saying the essence of a thing and the thing itself are one and the same? When you say the Abhidhamma notion is rather empty, that would have to apply to the dictionary notion too, I think. (Here, the dictionary is distinguishing 'essence,' not from the thing, but from its 'existence') You continued: ------------- Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? That needn't be raised to the level of a grand metaphysical principle. --------------- Sounds like sour grapes, Howard. :-) The rupa that is hardness is not the rupa that is temperature; that's all the Abhidhamma is saying (and the dictionary would agree). It's you who is making a big deal out of it (if not a grand metaphysical principle). -------------- Dictionary c : the properties or attributes by means of which something can be placed in its proper class or identified as being what it is --------------- H: > (ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is not particularly important for the Dhamma.// ------------- Not important for the small-d dhamma but vitally important for the capital-d Dhamma, I would think. In order that we can directly know a dhamma, the Dhamma teaches us to identify it and categorise it according to its properties. --------------------- 2 : something that exists --------------- Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) -------------- No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists has essence. How can anything that exists not have essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no essence. I think the dictionary has done a very good job. On the other hand, I think your analysis of it has been faulty (go to the back of the class:-) ). In this last instance, for example, you jump from "existence" to "self" as if they were one and the same. Nothing could be further from the truth: A dhamma exists by virtue of having its own essence; The Buddha has taught us that a part of that essence is the characteristic known as anatta (non-self). Anatta is not, as you would have us believe, non-existence. Replies to Herman and Michael coming up, I hope. Kind regards, Ken H ps 'No replies [yet] to Sarah' does not mean I concede defeat :-) 27951 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:03am Subject: Re: Justice and Fairness Hi Christine, > ===== > > > I wasn't stating whether or not the present moment should be > > different - I was asking what proof there is for the Buddhist > > explanation of why it is as it is (Kalama sutta). > > I strongly disagree that that good -->good and that bad -->bad is > an > > evidently common experience. Maybe in a small and protected > circle > > for a short period of time, but not in the real world. > > ===== Let me try a different approach to thinking about kamma that might help. Consider the body and its health. If we eat properly and exercise regularly, the body systems will be healthy. The body is a natural system and if you treat it properly, it will generally be healthy. Imagine a person dying of lung cancer who says, "It's not right. I gave up my three pack a day habit more than a year ago, why should I get lung cancer?" Of course, the answer is that to understand the health of the body, one has to look at more than the most recent 12 months. If we understand anatta, we know that the mind is also a natural process. Mental states arise because of conditions. Why do "unhealthy mental states" or "healthy mental states" arise? They arise because of conditions that support them. Just as we cannot understand the current health of a person by looking at just the past 12 months, we cannot understanding the conditions that support the mental conditions by looking at the immediate past. Not sure if this helps at all. Metta, Rob M :-) 27952 From: robmoult Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:13am Subject: Kamma Hi All, Is the "law of kamma" the same as "kamma condition" in the Patthana? Kamma condition talks about mental states in the past being conditions for current mental states, nothing more. The conditioning state for kamma condition is the cetana cetasika in 33 past kusala and akusala cittas. The conditioned states for kamma condition are the 36 vipaka cittas (plus their associated 38 cetasikas) and kamma- born rupa. In other words, kamma condition is purely mental (plus kamma-born rupa). It is therefore not correct to say that incidents that happen to you arise because of kamma condition. Incidents are not mental states. Incidents that happen to you arise because of a complex set of conditions, but it would seem that it is not appropriate to talk of kamma when discussing incidents. People do talk of incidents happening "because of kamma". Is this incorrect? Metta, Rob M :-) 27953 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:26am Subject: On more questions Hi James' Thank you for a reply for each letter and for each question. You said that I can see photos that you're in and I've seen them, it is marvellous, I've never seen such a nice view of a temple. I'm sorry to bother you but I still have some questions to ask you: 1 Why do sports bore you? 2 Are you a student of buddha? 3 If buddha is still alive now, how old is he? 4 Will you celebrate Christmas? From Janet 27954 From: Star Kid Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 2:28am Subject: spirits Dear Robert Do you get the feeling that you are not alone and people are always behind you or even above you? What do buddhists think about spirit and the afterlife? How do you know Mrs Abbott? Charles 27955 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:48am Subject: Re: spirits Dear Charles, I have questions like this in Thailand sometimes and I tell the Thai people that farang (western people) can't see phi (ghosts) or deva (angelic beings). That doesn't mean they don't exist and in fact I believe they do- but I don't have the capacity to see them. And of course some people think they see such things but they are just over imaginative. I think spirits have their own busy lives and don't have much to do with us humans. I met Mrs and Mr. Abbot about 12 years ago -before you were born- in Thailand and then I came and stayed with them for 2 weeks in Hong Kong, we are best friends. Robert In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Star Kid wrote: > > Dear Robert > Do you get the feeling that you are not alone and > people are always behind you or even above you? What > do buddhists think about spirit and the afterlife? How > do you know Mrs Abbott? > > Charles > > > 27956 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi Herman, ------------ H: > I am Captain Akusala from a former existence. ------------ Pleased to meet you :-) ------------- H: > How did you come to the conclusion that the concepts kusala/akusala are not dependent on a point of view? ---------------- Do you mean; "What a strange conclusion, how did you reach it?" Or do you mean; "To whom are you indebted for that gem of intellectual understanding?" In either case, I wouldn't have it any other way. If kusala/akusala depended on a point of view, there would be no sense in the world -- it would be one never ending debate; "You think this is good; I think it is bad. . ." Kusala kamma bears pleasant fruit; akusala kamma, unpleasant fruit. All the endless points of view, over which is kusala and which is akusala, are without influence -- the results will be the same. ------------- H: > What allows you to know the results of intention, and how to classify those results, without recourse to a conceptual superstructure that is noone's point of view? ------------- Consciousness at the sense doors knows the results of intentional action (vipaka). Mind-door consciousness knows mental states accumulated by all kinds of intention. They take no recourse in conceptual superstructure, they depend solely on conditions -- other paramattha dhammas. If panna (right understanding) is not present, then there is no way of telling which is which. Points of view have no influence. Is that what you were asking? Kind regards, Ken H . 27957 From: Michael Beisert Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:20am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hello KenH, KenH: No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists has essence. How can anything that exists not have essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no essence … A dhamma exists by virtue of having its own essence; The Buddha has taught us that a part of that essence is the characteristic known as anatta (non-self). Anatta is not, as you would have us believe, non-existence. Michael: Existence and non-existence are the two extremes avoided by the Buddha. You are falling into the trap of grasping to those extremes. Instead of existence/non-existence try to think of conditioned existence instead. That everything exits based on causes and conditions, and in that case things neither exist (with essence, since a conditioned thing cannot have an essence), nor do they not exist, because things can perform functions, we know because we experience that. If you cannot see that, I am sorry to say that I think you are hopelessly lost to the eternalist camp. Metta Michael 27958 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 6:48am Subject: approach to Vis. XIV, 47-54 Dear Larry and all, The commentaries use many similes to explain the senses. We should go deeper into these texts in order to understand the purpose of the similes and explanations. Otherwise we do not profit to the full from the texts. The eye is compared to and it is not bigger than a louse head. . Louse head, goat's hoof, those are not attractive images. The Expositor (311) states as to the tongue:like the upper part of a torn lotus leaf. Not beautiful. These similes help us to see the foulness of the body, one of the meditation subjects for all occasions. And what is the purpose of that meditation? To remind us that what we take for our beautiful body are only rupas that are non-self. To see the body in the body. And this is repeated for each of the senses:< It has assistance, consolidation, and maintenance in the way aforesaid; and it duly serves both as physical basis and as door...> The rupas that are the senses arise in a group of rupas, they need the assistance of theother rupas in that group, they are conditioned. Also the similes about the anthill have as purpose: to explain the particular conditions for each of the senses. The Expositor expands more and I added part of it in my footnotes. We have to take them in the right sense, they are very daily, simple reminders that can help us to understand them as just conditioned rupas. The bodysense is compared to a jackal who desires to be in a charnal ground where he can eat raw human flesh. Evenso the tactile sense desires matter grasped at (upadi.n.na), and takes tangible object dependent on the extension element (N:solidity or earth). The Expositor explains . It is also said that one does not know the hardness or softness of a bed without sitting down in it, and of fruits placed in the hand without pressing them. Very daily examples to remind us of the element of hardness, external and internal. It can be object of awareness now. What is the use of all these texts if they do not remind us of the dhamma appearing now. The bodysense is The bodysense is all over the body, and it is base at that point where there is impingement of tactile object. There can only be impingement at one point at a time. As you will see, at the end of my Tiika translation it is said: The word papa~nca, obsession, is used to give us an extra stab with the goad. We are obsessed by sense impressions. Therefore understanding of dhammas has to be developed at this moment. The Expositor clarifies the real purpose of all these similes and explanations by stating about the eyesense (308, 309): We never have enough of seeing, we cannot be satisfied, it is like an ocean. <'And this is an empty village,' refers to its being common to many and to the absence of a possessor.> There is no owner who can exert control. It is empty of essence as we read. Nina. P.s. Scroll down to my footnotes of the translation I will send, for more elaboration. 27959 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 3:17am Subject: I-Making (Re: [dsg] Re: ditthi, vicikiccha, silabbataparamasa/KKT) Hi,Christine (and KKT) - In a message dated 12/13/03 2:08:49 AM Eastern Standard Time, cforsyth@v... writes: > > Hello KKT, and All, > > KKT: I see that the problem > of Anatta perturbs you a lot, > does it not? :-)) > > Christine: I understand intellectually that there is no lasting > identity, no personality, just nama (mental phenomena) and rupa > (physical phenomena) rising and passing away, continually changing, > nothing permanent, nothing staying even for a moment. But when > suffering is evident in other beings and myself, it is anatta that > seems to be the illusion, not the other way round. I actually had a > period recently when I tried to conceive the world and people the way > I used to, as lasting things which eventually, over the years, > crumble and die - but it no longer seemed valid or satisfying. Having > once heard the Dhamma,there is no going back to the old comforting > beliefs. But, presently, there is no comfort in the Dhamma. > > KKT: If you continue to see everything > <>to Abhidharma > then it is not for <>:-)) > > Christine: "What" is not for real? Everything (me, you, the universe > and all that)? anatta or the Abhidhamma? > > KKT: Why don't you try to feel, to sense > this <>inside yourself? > Answer for yourself, "What is it?" > Can "it" do anything, control anything? > > Christine: Not a wise or reliable thing to do. :-) Sensing what is > inside, I "feel" exactly as I did when I was a devout Christian - > like a chocolate-coated mint candy. The <> is > the mint, the chocolate covering is the flesh. The > <> mostly feels as if it is in the heart or head > area. But I don't know that this feeling/sensing has any validity at > all. The <> has no power, other than to control > the body. It needs the body in order to "do" things - and the body > can't choose to do things by itself - the one depends on the other. > I doubt it can control anything (but not absolutely sure) - but, > together, the body and "whatever it is" CAN do things together. Try > Herman's experiment .. > > KKT: Feel "it", sense "it" for <> > > Christine: That is just my problem, KKT, it does feel <>. Or > did you mean something else by <>? > > Best wishes, > > KKT > metta and peace, > Christine > ============================ It seems to me that primarily what is being sensed is: the seeing of fuzzily bounded visual ports to the world of sight (the eye sockets) and the hearing of sounds, both experienced as in the head area, plus thoughts and volition, which also seem to go through the head area. Sight, sound, and thought-volition all seem centered at the head area, and it is these three senses of seeing, hearing, and mind that most folks, I believe, consider to be primary (whereas smell, taste, and touch are sometimes lumped together by the Buddha as "sensing"). We tend to mainly identify with these three head-centered senses, and thus that seems to be where "we" are located (with an occasional emotional excursion to the throat and heart for some of us). I think that realizing that the head area is simply a primary focus of attention and volitional activity may be helpful to us - there's no self there, just an important locus of activity. It is not "self" and body that work together to get things done, it is mind and body in the sense of nama and rupa, as in the Buddha's metaphor of the blind but mobile man (body) carrying the lame but sighted man (awareness) with the awareness serving to direct. These are two complementary fields of experience and function which cooperatively co-occur to get things done, all impersonally. At the core of this is volition, the power source, and it is our reification of and identification with that function, along with the head-centered functions of seeing, hearing, and thinking, that constitute the primary basis for our I-making. Because of our identifying with the function of volition, we sense and believe in a self that wills, thinks, sees, and hears (and secondarily tastes, smells, and has tactile experience). At least this is my theory. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27960 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 4:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Ken - In a message dated 12/13/03 2:22:11 AM Eastern Standard Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Howard, Herman and Michael (and Sarah), > > I owe each of you a reply (and I owe Sarah several but > they might have to wait). After a few days away from the > computer, [giving my poor eyes a rest], I'd like to take > up where we left off. > > Howard, you commented on my message to Michael; You > quoted the dictionary definition of essence and then > offered your analysis. I have combined the two below > along with my own comments: > > ----------------- > Dictionary 1 a : the permanent as contrasted with the > accidental element of being > ----------------- > H: >Meaning 1 a): Atta or self //In this sense, Buddhism > accepts no essence// > ----------------- > > Why do you compare 'permanent' with 'anatta?' I would > have thought anicca would have been more to the point. > Not that I have much opinion on 1 a, I don't know what > "the accidental element of being" refers to, so I won't > comment. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not dealing with the exact words of the def'n, but its meaning. The contrasting with accidental is the main point. What is not accidental is essential. An essence or core of something is its "self". Such an alleged thing is permanent, where what is accidental is not permanent, but it is true, self-existent "being" of something that is its "essence" or "self". ------------------------------------------------- > > ---------------- > Dictionary b : the individual, real, or ultimate nature > of a thing especially as opposed to its existence > ------------ > H: >Meaning 1 b): Defining or distinguishing > characteristic // (i) For paramattha dhammas, the dhamma > and its distinguishing characteristic or condition are > one and the same, making this notion rather empty. > -------------- > > Interrupting you there; Isn't the dictionary agreeing > with the Abhidhamma? > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. -------------------------------------------------- Isn't it saying the essence of a > > thing and the thing itself are one and the same? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Here it is pointing out the sense of 'essence' that is "distinguishing characteristic". It is a misleading usage of 'essence' in my opinion, dangerous because of the possibility of confusing it with the atta sense of 'essence'. To say that the essence of a thing *is* that thing is to trivialize the term 'essence'. The application of essence to conventional objects, while vague, makes some sense. The application of it to paramattha dhammas is an exercise in vacuity, or even worse. It amounts to nothing more than the assertion of the tautology "A is A". But "A is A" is already a hazard - in fact, A is *not* just A. In fact, A is *nothing* in and of itself, but is completely dependent upon the coming together of other equally empty conditions. ------------------------------------------------ When > > you say the Abhidhamma notion is rather empty, that > would have to apply to the dictionary notion too, I think. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: No, because you can rest assured that the dictionary writer knows nothing of paramattha dhammas. ------------------------------------------------ > > (Here, the dictionary is distinguishing 'essence,' not from > the thing, but from its 'existence') > > You continued: > ------------- > Hardness isn't warmth - they don't get confused. So what? > That needn't be raised to the level of a grand > metaphysical principle. > --------------- > > Sounds like sour grapes, Howard. :-) The rupa that is > hardness is not the rupa that is temperature; that's all > the Abhidhamma is saying (and the dictionary would > agree). It's you who is making a big deal out of it (if > not a grand metaphysical principle). -------------------------------------------------------- Howard: It's not sour grapes at all. I agree that Abhidhamma means nothing more by 'sabhava' than "distinguishing characteristic". (Thank goodness!) I simply think that using a term like 'sabhava' that literally means "own being"/"own nature"/"essence" is a confusing move, and the proof is in the putting - Mahayanists (and many Theravadins) take 'sabhava' to mean "true, self-existent core." I am not making a grand, metaphysical principle out of paramattha dhammas being distinguishable. Of course they are! When that fact is enshrined by labeling it as 'sabhava' or 'essence', that is when one enters upon metaphysics. --------------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > Dictionary c : the properties or attributes by means of > which something can be placed in its proper class or > identified as being what it is > --------------- > H: >(ii) For conventional objects, this is a perfectly > reasonable though often vague and unidentifiable notion > (What is the defining characteristic of a tree?), and is > not particularly important for the Dhamma.// > ------------- > > Not important for the small-d dhamma but vitally > important for the capital-d Dhamma, I would think. > In order that we can directly know a dhamma, the Dhamma > teaches us to identify it and categorise it according to its > properties. > > --------------------- > 2 : something that exists > --------------- > Meaning 2: Something having atta or self (Buddhist > perspective on this: No selves, no entities.) > -------------- > > No, no, the dictionary is saying something that exists > has essence. How can anything that exists not have > essence? No essence, no existence; no existence, no > essence. I think the dictionary has done a very good > job. On the other hand, I think your analysis of it has > been faulty (go to the back of the class:-) ). In this > last instance, for example, you jump from "existence" to > "self" as if they were one and the same. Nothing could > be further from the truth: A dhamma exists by virtue of > having its own essence; > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: This is substantialism, Ken, whether you realize it or not. ---------------------------------------------- The Buddha has taught us that a> > part of that essence is the characteristic known as > anatta (non-self). ---------------------------------------------- Howard: What a hoot! This is self-contradictory. The Buddha would never speak in such terms. --------------------------------------------- Anatta is not, as you would have us> > believe, non-existence. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I wouldn't have anybody believe that. Anatta is absence of core or essence - it is not nonexistence. It is dependent, relational existence. Whatever arises is a thing-in-relation, not a thing-in-and-of-itself. Emptiness is neither self-existence nor non-existence, it is conditional, dependent existence as expressed, for example, in the Kaccayanagotta Sutta. It is the middle way. ----------------------------------------------- > Replies to Herman and Michael coming up, I hope. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ps 'No replies [yet] to Sarah' does not mean I concede > defeat :-) > > ============================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 27961 From: Date: Sat Dec 13, 2003 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: characteristics Hi, Michael (and Ken) - In a message dated 12/13/03 9:22:19 AM Eastern Sta